What are THE best LED projectors available right now - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 55 Old 12-14-2012, 08:42 AM
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Anyway, it is pretty clear that you have your unmovable opinion and that you are happy with what you have. I for one will not go back. The LED Runco is here to stay.

And my Lumis is here to stay. There were many comparison tests done in the $ 20,000 and up sections Lumis threads, pitting the JVC's against the Lumis. DLP, with this particular projector, was not judged inferior.

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post #32 of 55 Old 12-14-2012, 04:32 PM
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...And my Runco Q-750D is here to stay as well...
Even though every time i go to my local Best Buy store and stand there mesmerized by that hugely beautiful picture of the Sharp 80" HDTV while licking my chops with enviousness, i have to remind myself that if i sold my Runco and bought one, should i expect the same reliability i have experienced so far ? I can attest to the reliability of these LED projectors sold under Runco / Vivitek / Digital Projection as my pj has ran an average of 10-~12 hours per day for the past 13 months - that's about 4.000 hours of use - without any problems whatsoever, no loss of brightness and, in fact, most times is hard to tell which ones are the intake air fans and which ones are the exhaust air fans, that's how cool these projectors run.
And, as discussed, would i get similar "LED color depth/saturation" in a LCD screen ? As fabulous as LCD colors look at the store and at home with my LCD HDTV, my eyes still tell me that those LED colors are intrinsic to the technology and cannot be duplicated by other displays and i am not willing to give that up yet; Perhaps projectors employing lasers would have similar color characteristics ?
I am so "sold" on solid state light sources used for video projection that i once fantasized and realized that if anyone gave me a Sony 4K top-of-the-line projector for a gift, i would thank the person very/very much, then proceed to sell it asap to pocket the money and keep my much beloved Runco Q-750D instead, that's how much appreciation i have for it considering how it fits my projection needs perfectly.
PS : I only wish that the Runco Q-750 line of LED projectors had smaller cases and were much lighter in weight, but on the other hand they are built and look like tanks !
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post #33 of 55 Old 12-15-2012, 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted by MCaugusto View Post

in fact, most times is hard to tell which ones are the intake air fans and which ones are the exhaust air fans, that's how cool these projectors run.

Does the cool exhaust also mean there is little fan noise? How does the Runco compare to the quiet JVC and Sony units running in low-power mode? I've always found most DLP projectors too noisy for my taste - not sure if it was the color wheel or actual fans causing it.
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post #34 of 55 Old 12-16-2012, 06:32 AM
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Well, right now i am sitting down using my desktop with the projector located about 4 feet away and i am watching TV at a very low level; I cannot hear the fans of the Runco Q-750D running and have to stand about 2 feet away from pj to be able to hear them, after shutting down all sound in the room.
The noise of the fans is more like a very-low level "wooshing" air exhaust sound than a "whining" high-pitched sound, and compared to my old CRT projector it certainly sounds much quieter; I wonder if that extra layer of steel/aluminum (textured on the outside) rather heavy metal case surrounding the innards of the OEM ( Digital Projection ? ) adds to lower the sound even more. I tried using a small flashlight to see some of the inside of the unit without having to open it up, obviously, and from what i could discern there is about 2"~3" of open space separating the metal case from the main unit itself.
I am beginning to get concerned about the fact that i am unable to clean/vacuum the fans, which are located far inside. There is no mention in the owner's manual about the need for directly cleaning the fans but my HT room is fully carpeted and i needed to vacuum the fan of my old pj at least once every year; I keep checking the air exhaust temperature with my hands and it seems the same as when i first got the projector, barely warm most of the time, but shouldn't i be concerned about my inability to clean and vacuum the fans of this projector unless i open the main case and remove the top panel ?
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post #35 of 55 Old 12-18-2012, 07:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Woow guys, i'm happy this thread is causing a stirr lol, thanx to everybody , a lot of usefull information here.

So i went to have a look at the sim m150 , they had a little batcave cinema installed and i managed to stay there for over 4 hours, the salesmen were VERY relaxed, (by the way, everybody who ever passes through Antwerp should probably pass by this store, Alpha High end Sound and Vision, i've never seen anything like it, they seem to have everyhting, from truly exoticly expensive gear to a simple usb dac, it's all there. for the first time i saw wilson maxx speakers hooked up to mccintosch gear, that being said, i didn't like the sound of that (yes i wouldn't think i would say that either, then they had some avalon speakers hooked up to a spectral amp and it was pretty much the best i ever heard.

Anyway back on point, the sim 2 is awesome, but it didnt really rock my world either, even when compared to my rs20. (u have to know i'm projecting on a 100 inch screen, the rs 20 is only 3 m away from it and completey isf calibrated)

What was very unexpected was that they had a used barco cinemax on display with hdmi compatibiltiy displaying 1080p material, and oooh damn allmight i fell in love with this image, this is what i'm looking for ! After some talking i also learnt that these lamps work for about 20000 hours, and all in all, this is what i was looking for in LED, since i'm tired of changing bulbs on my rs20.

Now for the price, they are asking a cool 7000 euros (about 8500 dollars) for it. Does anyone here know if that would be a fair price ? And what if i'm ever gonna need parts on it ? The salesguy told me everything can still be ordered new, but as it has 3 9inch tubes, at about 1500 euro's a pop this could still end up a fairly expensive hobby.

But again, this to me was finally a VERY noticeable step up from my rs 20.

looking forward on your thoughts here
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post #36 of 55 Old 12-18-2012, 07:40 AM - Thread Starter
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i'm also a bit confused on the remarks of having i low native contrast on digital projectors... The rs20 for example has 50,000 to 1 , newer models go to even 120000 to 1.


Then when i look at those ultra high end or professional theather models from the likes as christies, barco and digital devolpment all around 2000 to 1 and 5000 to 1, and this barco cinemax also according to the salesguy would only have a contrast of 2000 to 1, i wonder why higher constrast ratio's would be better, AND why then this barco loooks sooo good (drooool) with such low contrast values...
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post #37 of 55 Old 12-18-2012, 10:33 AM
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Am I right in thinking the Barco Cinemax is a CRT projector?
We have obviously come full circle in technology, if only they made them a bit smaller.

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post #38 of 55 Old 12-18-2012, 01:56 PM
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denielemunds - had you seen the SIM M150 LED , what were your impression ?

It seems that CRT is still surviving for a group of people who values its "virtue" , I still have the G70 hanging , for movie with mostly night scene , it is without peep ! Analogue wins again ! HD material does make CRT more vivid , just not bright enough for larger screen (mine for CRT 100") but it is pleasing & comforting to your eyes .

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post #39 of 55 Old 12-18-2012, 02:56 PM
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I bought a NuVision ProVu P2 (aka Vivitek H9080FD or Runco Q750i) for a ridiculously low price. Should have it Friday to test out. These LEDs sound awesome, especially considering I don't have a huge screen. This option is great for someone looking to get 90% of the PQ the uber expensive LEDs offer.
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post #40 of 55 Old 12-19-2012, 06:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by denkiedenk View Post

i'm also a bit confused on the remarks of having i low native contrast on digital projectors... The rs20 for example has 50,000 to 1 , newer models go to even 120000 to 1.
Then when i look at those ultra high end or professional theather models from the likes as christies, barco and digital devolpment all around 2000 to 1 and 5000 to 1, and this barco cinemax also according to the salesguy would only have a contrast of 2000 to 1, i wonder why higher constrast ratio's would be better, AND why then this barco loooks sooo good (drooool) with such low contrast values...

Even 120,000:1 contrast provides blacks that are dark grey. CRT projectors like the Barco can turn their guns off completely for zero light output and absolute black. ANSI contrast is quite poor but on/off can be crazy high, 700,000:1 plus.

Maybe one day digital projectors will catch up, but I doubt it will be any time soon.
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post #41 of 55 Old 12-19-2012, 01:58 PM
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Even 120,000:1 contrast provides blacks that are dark grey.

This can also be affected by your room and screen combo. I just did a test with a sample of StudioTek 130 G3 material, to compare it to my Firehawk G3 screen. When the scene was very dark ( like a space scene from 2001 ) the blacks looked the same on both screen materials. But in mixed scenes with something very bright, the StudioTek 130 looked more grey than black ( even though my room is flat grey / brown furniture / total light contol ). Conclusion? If you love good blacks, use a grey screen, or paint your room flat black ! Of course my projector is cranking out 20+ foot lamberts............cool.gif

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post #42 of 55 Old 12-19-2012, 04:51 PM
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Unfortunately a grey screen drops white level by the same amount as it drops black level, contrast remains the same. This is effectively the same as closing the projectors iris if the room is completely dark, but closing the iris also increases contrast.
Special screens like the DNP Supanova and Black Diamond are much more effective than a grey screen if there is ambient or reflected light to contend with as they do improve both blacks and contrast.

Its a given that the viewing environment must be totally dark for us to have any chance of good blacks, but no matter what screen we get and how perfect we make our bat caves no digital projector can provide blacks that are black. However some do a much better job than others.
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post #43 of 55 Old 12-28-2012, 01:03 PM
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Seeing as, a while ago, we were talking about DLPs supposed LCD quality black level, thought I would post this link to an experiment done by Wolfgang Mayer. He over-exposes some dark scenes with Sim2 Lumis DC4 DLP and a JVC RS20. The results are not what you might expect:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1112115/sim2-lumis-3-chip-dlp-little-test/90#post_15650586

And remember the dynamic iris on the Lumis is not engaged in these shots.

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post #44 of 55 Old 01-24-2013, 07:17 PM
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Im going to subscribe to this thread so I can post more soon. I bought a q750 a year ago and its been sitting in the box. Im actively working on my theater right now and cant wait to post on how it looks. I can see when i was demoing them the picture on it was amazing, and bright. Make sure you put more weight on the opinion of people that have seen it and not those that are just looking at spec sheets. The starting lumens are less but they never go down. I watched sportscenter for a while on one, the red on the sports center bar was noticeably different than the other projectors.

I too have wondered as I walk past the 80 inch sharps if ill regret spending all this money on a projector and soon a screen but i have no regrets. my screen will be 235 and 133 inches.
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post #45 of 55 Old 01-25-2013, 07:05 AM
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Unfortunately a grey screen drops white level by the same amount as it drops black level, contrast remains the same. This is effectively the same as closing the projectors iris if the room is completely dark, but closing the iris also increases contrast.
Special screens like the DNP Supanova and Black Diamond are much more effective than a grey screen if there is ambient or reflected light to contend with as they do improve both blacks and contrast.

Its a given that the viewing environment must be totally dark for us to have any chance of good blacks, but no matter what screen we get and how perfect we make our bat caves no digital projector can provide blacks that are black. However some do a much better job than others.

Its not so simple. The gray screen with a gain less than one will obviously absorb some of the light accross the board including making 0 IRE look blacker than the grayer it would look on a 1.0 or higher gain screen, in other words it will result in a low ref black level. By absorbing light accross the board, there will be less light being reflected off the screen and THEREFORE less hitting the walls and reflecting back to the screen, this is also multiplicative because part of the light bouncing off the walls and reflected back to the screen will also be absorbed, reducing the additional washout caused by multiple reflections. The on/off contrast will remain the same, ANSI will be somewhat increased. When a gray screen is coated with an optical spay which results in a positive gain for the screen, things change somewhat. Take firehawk for example. The base gray fabric has a gain of about 0.8 while the spray applied adds a gain or around 1.6, giving about 1.26 when the two gains are multiplied together. Any positive gain screen will send less light to the walls than a 1.0 gain screen and likewise will accept less light from the walls.

Painting walls black is a decent solution except that even flat black is somewhat reflective and the ideal would be material which reduces reflectivity to where when you look at a surface receiving bounced from the screen light you seen nothing but a black pit. The only room I have seen that does this is where the surfaces are covered with Protec. For myself, the only screen material I will accept for other than 3D viewing is a very very smooth screen, non perfed, with a gain very close to 1.0. Then do my best to provide black non reflective surfaces. There is no other solution, NONE, that won't deteriorate the image in someways and suspend for me any illusion of realism or being there.

My test is. Yea, i hear you, but are you ever aware that you are watching on a screen instead of looking through a window. quiet. Yes or no and no sometimes.

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post #46 of 55 Old 01-25-2013, 09:16 AM
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Has anyone seen the new Panasonic LED-LASER PT RZ370 or 470???
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post #47 of 55 Old 01-25-2013, 11:02 AM
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Has anyone seen the new Panasonic LED-LASER PT RZ370 or 470???

they are there 4 Pre-order 4 5000 Euros

http://www.beamershop24.net/panasonic-full-hd-beamer/panasonic-pt-rz370e/?utm_source=psmido&utm_medium=psmido&utm_campaign=psmido
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post #48 of 55 Old 01-25-2013, 10:11 PM
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Come on guys , enjoy what you have now.

Think about it.

You guys have equipment that a lot of us people with lesser means have not.

That is one thing I have had to learn and learn the hard way, be happy with what you have now or you will never be happy or satisfied.

As for me ? I can't even afford to buy a $ 399 LG PA70 G projector because I just got done spending money on getting my car fixed.

I would be happy just to have 1080P anything at this point in time.

My wish list ? the Panasonic PT-RZ470.

Guy's ? be thankful for what you have, I don't even have my own house.

Hey MCaugusto ? Happy New year buddy biggrin.gif
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post #49 of 55 Old 01-26-2013, 01:37 AM
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Originally Posted by DLPProjectorfan View Post

Come on guys , enjoy what you have now.
Think about it. You guys have equipment that a lot of us people with lesser means have not.

As for me ? I can't even afford to buy a $ 399 LG PA70 G projector because I just got done spending money on getting my car fixed.
I would be happy just to have 1080P anything at this point in time.

Go around the house and look for some stuff you can ebay or something, maybe get some extra cash, then keep an eye out for a used 1080p DLP is my advice. In the low-end, these DLP's are still producing really amazingly good images these days even in the under $1,200 realm. I would not worry about a dedicated theater room atm, it is nice to have in your own home, but you can tack black sheets to the ceiling even in an apartment and add black curtains to the walls. It isn't "chic" friendly, but you can make it work. The only downside to not having dedicated room is mainly the sound cannot be as loud (hence don't wanna wake up the neighbors). You can get cheap black sheets from walmart and it's pretty dark if you tack them to the ceiling, makes a huge quick and dirty improvement.

Very true what you said, I am pretty satisfied with a JVC RS-45 for 2D and movies, and Benq w7000 for TV, some streaming, and HTPC use.

I have no doubt though that going to the $20,000+ you can find some projectors that beat the JVC's overall. Not so sure about the Runco LS-5, I would think for many yes it does beat the JVC due to the Runco's more balanced image, but most people that buy JVC's are black level fanatics. The funny thing is I was really NEVER a black level fanatic, but in my price range (under $5,000), the JVC was just the best deal on a new PJ and I couldn't find a used Marantz, Planar, or Runco at the time that I was comfortable buying, so I got the JVC which I am fairly happy with. Once I got the JVC, I then became more of a black level fanatic than I expected myself to be.


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post #50 of 55 Old 01-26-2013, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Owen View Post

Even 120,000:1 contrast provides blacks that are dark grey. CRT projectors like the Barco can turn their guns off completely for zero light output and absolute black. ANSI contrast is quite poor but on/off can be crazy high, 700,000:1 plus.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Owen View Post

no matter what screen we get and how perfect we make our bat caves no digital projector can provide blacks that are black.

That's not true. Carl Zeiss Velvet produces 1.000.000:1 native using two DLP chips in series. It's not a HT projector, it was made for a planetariums, but it exists and it is digital.
Using this technique with an existing chips it is theoretically possible to achieve 10.000.000:1.

SEOS Zorro 2015HC does the same utilizing LCoS.

So the technology is there, we just have to wait until someone will implement it in HT.
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post #51 of 55 Old 01-26-2013, 09:01 PM
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As the old saying goes, if it ain't one thing ? it's another.

Bad news guys I think I might have to buy a new Catalytic Converter for my car.

On the bright side ? I can install it myself and save myself some money.

Looks like any new projector dream will be put on hold at least another 2 or 3 months.

Thanks codeguy for the advise.

Yes I can live with with what I have.

Yes all of us have to learn how to enjoy what we have now, and be content.

However ? there is a line where ? how can I say this in eloquent words ?

The LG HX300G sucks, it does not cut it.

Everyone ? including the moderators I wish everyone a happy new year.
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post #52 of 55 Old 01-26-2013, 09:05 PM
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Coderguy ? I did back in November manage to get a real budget screen.

Yes I moved up from using a blackout cloth.

I bought it for only TA DA ! $$ 65

Ok guys, don't laugh, but at least it's a real screen.

It's a Inland screen with 1.2 gain.

100 " biggrin.gif

What do you think about that screen MCaugusto ? cool.gif
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post #53 of 55 Old 01-26-2013, 09:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DLPProjectorfan View Post

As the old saying goes, if it ain't one thing ? it's another.

Bad news guys I think I might have to buy a new Catalytic Converter for my car.

On the bright side ? I can install it myself and save myself some money.

Looks like any new projector dream will be put on hold at least another 2 or 3 months.

Thanks codeguy for the advise.

Yes I can live with with what I have.

Yes all of us have to learn how to enjoy what we have now, and be content.

However ? there is a line where ? how can I say this in eloquent words ?

The LG HX300G sucks, it does not cut it.

Everyone ? including the moderators I wish everyone a happy new year.

I think each person has his or her own subjective view on what's good enough. The saying "ignorance is bliss" comes to mind when looking at projectors. I think most people who haven't seen better are pretty happy with what they have. Generally, most of the projectors that cost under $5000 (and some would argue a number much higher) have a decent compromise or even compromises inside the projector that hinder it's performance in a certain area or areas. Generally speaking, as you move up in cost lens quality becomes exponentially better. The same goes for processing capabilities, CMS accuracy. better dynamic iris algorithms, build quality (metal not plastic), ergonomics, quality control, packaging, warranties, ect. Once you've seen something a lot higher in price usually there is a lasting impression of how good that projected image looked. Some people (myself included) are haunted by what they've seen and can't sit idly by waiting for performance at that level to come down in price. It takes a long time for that to happen and I'm way too impatient haha.

I'm pretty cheap. I usually buy used because projectors in particular depreciate in value so quickly. You can get a projector that cost $8000 street value only a few years later in the used market for a third of that price, sometimes less if you're patient and lucky enough to find the right deal or someone who needs to sell quickly for a cheap price.
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post #54 of 55 Old 01-26-2013, 11:05 PM
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Quote:
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I think each person has his or her own subjective view on what's good enough. The saying "ignorance is bliss" comes to mind when looking at projectors. I think most people who haven't seen better are pretty happy with what they have. Generally, most of the projectors that cost under $5000 (and some would argue a number much higher) have a decent compromise or even compromises inside the projector that hinder it's performance in a certain area or areas. Generally speaking, as you move up in cost lens quality becomes exponentially better. The same goes for processing capabilities, CMS accuracy. better dynamic iris algorithms, build quality (metal not plastic), ergonomics, quality control, packaging, warranties, ect. Once you've seen something a lot higher in price usually there is a lasting impression of how good that projected image looked. Some people (myself included) are haunted by what they've seen and can't sit idly by waiting for performance at that level to come down in price. It takes a long time for that to happen and I'm way too impatient haha.

I'm pretty cheap. I usually buy used because projectors in particular depreciate in value so quickly. You can get a projector that cost $8000 street value only a few years later in the used market for a third of that price, sometimes less if you're patient and lucky enough to find the right deal or someone who needs to sell quickly for a cheap price.
Used is the way to go, especially for screens. New or used screens are the same to me. Once led or laser projectors become the norm, most will settle for used I think. I know I will
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post #55 of 55 Old 03-23-2013, 10:44 AM
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I have an Mico 50 projector on and an RS25. The Sim 2 projector has more than 1000 hour on and keeps the same luminosity. Also the picture is pretty beautiful, with saturated colors, good black level and superb sharpness. It falls short on the Rs 25 in black level only. Since I have a bat cave room, brightness is just ok for a 110" screen.
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Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

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