What are THE best LED projectors available right now - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 55 Old 12-01-2012, 03:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Looking for the top 3 known LED projectors available right now,regardles of price, who can point us in the right direction ?

Since i'm a longtime jvc dila owner (first rs1, currently rs20) i would also like to know how they compare and wich LED projector would be a noticeable step up from the current range (rs 40 and up)

Looking forward to some expertise here, thanx in advance.
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post #2 of 55 Old 12-02-2012, 08:39 PM
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I do not have time to go into details but my top three are
1. Runco D-73D (highest light out LED on the market today)
2. SIM2 M150
3. Runco Q-750 or Q1500

David

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post #3 of 55 Old 12-05-2012, 01:45 AM
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UK firm Digital Projection have a few out. Knowing the company, they'll be superb, and for lottery winners only.

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post #4 of 55 Old 12-05-2012, 05:32 AM
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Saw the Digital Projection LED at CEDIA, it could have been the demo but the M150 looked better and I think its cheaper. Don't forget the Tru Vue Vango, I have asked around the forum but yet to see how much difference in light output there is between the M150 and the Vango.

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post #5 of 55 Old 12-05-2012, 05:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by denkiedenk View Post

Looking for the top 3 known LED projectors available right now,regardles of price, who can point us in the right direction ?
Since i'm a longtime jvc dila owner (first rs1, currently rs20) i would also like to know how they compare and wich LED projector would be a noticeable step up from the current range (rs 40 and up)
Looking forward to some expertise here, thanx in advance.

What makes you think any "LED" projector will out perform or even equal a current JVC for 2D image quality.
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post #6 of 55 Old 12-05-2012, 06:51 AM
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LEDs produce much more subtle variations in colour than just about any other type of projector out there, in my humble opinion. The sharpness and motion will be better too, black level perhaps not so much.
If you don't think they would do a better job than a JVC, then I would highly recommend demoing a M150.

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post #7 of 55 Old 12-05-2012, 07:30 AM
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Might want to take a look at the Display Development HD6.  Same OEM supply as the Vango/Wolf/SIM2 with different "tuning". 

 

http://www.displaydevelopment.com/hd6.html

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post #8 of 55 Old 12-05-2012, 09:29 AM
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Interesting, not heard of them before, any idea of how much they sell the HD6 for?

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post #9 of 55 Old 12-05-2012, 11:08 AM
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Wow that's one heavy beast, 199lbs.

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post #10 of 55 Old 12-05-2012, 11:32 AM
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Too bad that the Tru View Vango is now discontinued. We do have one left though.

I would like to see more and brighter LED projectors in the future.

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post #11 of 55 Old 12-11-2012, 12:13 PM - Thread Starter
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thanx very much guys for pointing me in some directions :

I managed to find a store in Antwerp that has a sim m 150 on display for the next three weeks, ( the store is called Alhpa high end) , so i'll be checking it out probably next weekend. I have little interest in 3d, so that runco d73 d is not for me, the runco q 750 also looks interesting, especially the price, but i'm having trouble finding a store that has it on working display, seems they are not well represented in belgium (probably has somehting to do with barco being a belgium company). I contacted barco and they should also release their first led model for home use in the summer of 2013. display development models look VERY interesting, but if they are anything near as loud as the WOLF models i would not be interested, a reported 32 db on normal use seems already very loud to me + i'm having trouble finding prices on the units.

I'll sure be letting u guys know my thoughts on the m150 , wich will be compared to my 3 year relationship with my jvc rs20 + lumagen combo.

grtz
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post #12 of 55 Old 12-11-2012, 12:28 PM
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You're going to be pleasantly surprised. I've heard nothing but amazing things about the M150.

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post #13 of 55 Old 12-11-2012, 12:36 PM - Thread Starter
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OMG i just found an indication of the prices of display development, seems they have quickly become the 'stewart fim screen ' company's preferred partner for demo's... still not sure bout the hd 6 , but since the hd 1 is about 20 k, i'm guessing around 60-80 k for the hd 6...

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article/brighter-idea

digital projection also seems very serious about their stuff...

I've now set my goals to find the best Led with the texas instruments 0,95 darkchip 4 i can find.

thanx seegs, i'm pretty excited to check out the sim2, as it comes at fairly 'do-able don't have to divorce my wife' price.

grtz
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post #14 of 55 Old 12-11-2012, 01:38 PM
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I just don't think LED is going to make it. I think LED is going to be skipped over for laser. LED just never seemed to find the brightness that is wanted by many. At CEDIA two years ago LED was talked about. This year LED was not hardly a topic at CEDIA.

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post #15 of 55 Old 12-11-2012, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
digital projection also seems very serious about their stuff...

I had a Digital Projection dVision 1080p projector before my Lumis - build quality was top notch. The optics were also top notch - huge bayonet mount interchangable lenses. A picture sharp enough to make your eyes bleed. They build good stuff !! smile.gif

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post #16 of 55 Old 12-11-2012, 06:37 PM
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If you are not looking for 3D then the RUNCO Q-1500 might be on your list as it is a true 1000+ lumen LED projector. It is the D-73D without the the 3D. It also has an amazing picture.

There is also a D73D for sale on Ebay from a dealer that can be had even cheaper than listed and it is already all most half off.

David

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post #17 of 55 Old 12-11-2012, 09:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danieledmunds View Post

LEDs produce much more subtle variations in colour than just about any other type of projector out there, in my humble opinion. The sharpness and motion will be better too, black level perhaps not so much.
If you don't think they would do a better job than a JVC, then I would highly recommend demoing a M150.

UHP lamp projectors have no problem reproducing the Rec 709 color gamut and all 256 video levels of each color to provide very good posterization free images. The wider color gamut of a LED light source needs to be rained in to provide an accurate picture, I dont see that as an advantage.
A "LED" light source does not improve image sharpness. Sharpness can be adjusted via digital processing with any projector.

Contrast ratio, or the lack of it, is by far the greatest problem for digital projectors as far as I am concerned. Its the only aspect of performance that I am looking to improve upon.
The JVC's are head and shoulders above the competition for native contrast BUT they are FAR from perfect and I am looking for much better performance. A LED based projector with only a fraction of the native CR of a JVC does not seem like progress to me, hopefully laser will provide a big step up in contrast.
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post #18 of 55 Old 12-12-2012, 07:20 AM
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Agreed, the LED light source won't provide the extra sharpness the larger 0.95" DLP chip will do that. As explained here by an optical engineer:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1410605/need-advice-on-runco-ls-7/30#post_22088551

I can't attest to having as much knowledge or experience but from my own viewing of 'The Art of Flight' (which was being shown at virtually every booth at CEDIA) there was definitely a difference in colour reproduction between LED and UHP projectors. This was most obvious when looking at the snowboarding suits that were being worn in the movie. On the LED models you could tell that some of the suits had flourescent colours in them and were noticeably different from others that were being worn. I went to quite a few booths showing the same movie on UHP based models and the effect was far less noticeable or you couldn't really see the difference in the suits. By the same token, skin tones, landcapes etc all still looked very natural on the M150. DIfferent gradients of colour just seemed more noticeable too.
Exactly how SIM2 managed this in their demo, I do not know. I suppose it is possible that every manufacturer showing UHP models at the show didn't calibrate them correctly but I'd say its unlikely. I have tried to recreate the effect on my model at home and couldn't do it either, for what its worth. All I can say is that I would recommend viewing a good demo of an LED before dismissing the possible advantages.

In terms of contrast, the numbers may look very different between high end DLP and JVCs but the viewable differences are not so great IMO. Again, demoing is the only way to know if it is a real issue to you personally

Considering the hype around the RED projector it will be very interesting to see what some of the forum members make of it when it is 'in the wild' so to speak.

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post #19 of 55 Old 12-12-2012, 07:28 AM
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LED chipsets used for image projection (Luminus Devices) not only have very wide R/G/B color gamut "points" but also due to their nature have much deeper color saturation than UHP/Zenon lamps; Because of that characteristic images projected by LED lamps exhibit what is called the H-K (Helmholtz-Kohlrausch) Effect; Essentially it posits that to human eyes brightness is a function not only of luminance but also of chromaticity, that the perception of brightness increases with color saturation. That is why LED projectors appear brighter than they measure, with some specs even claiming they appear to be 60% brighter is side-by-side perceived luminosity comparison with standard bulbs.
I do see the deeper color saturation afforded by LEDs as a definite advantage even after the projector has been calibrated to Rec 709 and such fact has been commented upon in every review of LED projectors i have read, as something that must be viewed in person to be fully appreciated, and i can attest to that every time i turn on my Runco Q-750D and be greeted by those mesmerizing colors.
LCOS projectors from JVC do have best-in-class full-on/full-off contrast ratio but keep in mind that DLP projectors exhibit class-leading ANSI contrast ratio.
With measured black level of 0.002 ft-L and full white level approaching 20 ft-L on 110" diagonal screen (1.3 gain) and thus contrast levels of 10.000:1, most top-of-the-line LED projectors deserve a lot more credit than they have been given, in my humble opinion.
I still cannot understand why manufacturers keep claiming that the main reason why these LED projectors are so expensive is due to the LED light source when Luminus Devices sells the PT-120 R/G/B LED chipset for less than $200 dollars in large quantities...
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post #20 of 55 Old 12-12-2012, 08:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danieledmunds View Post

Agreed, the LED light source won't provide the extra sharpness the larger 0.95" DLP chip will do that. As explained here by an optical engineer:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1410605/need-advice-on-runco-ls-7/30#post_22088551
I can't attest to having as much knowledge or experience but from my own viewing of 'The Art of Flight' (which was being shown at virtually every booth at CEDIA) there was definitely a difference in colour reproduction between LED and UHP projectors. This was most obvious when looking at the snowboarding suits that were being worn in the movie. On the LED models you could tell that some of the suits had flourescent colours in them and were noticeably different from others that were being worn. I went to quite a few booths showing the same movie on UHP based models and the effect was far less noticeable or you couldn't really see the difference in the suits. By the same token, skin tones, landcapes etc all still looked very natural on the M150. DIfferent gradients of colour just seemed more noticeable too.
Exactly how SIM2 managed this in their demo, I do not know. I suppose it is possible that every manufacturer showing UHP models at the show didn't calibrate them correctly but I'd say its unlikely. I have tried to recreate the effect on my model at home and couldn't do it either, for what its worth. All I can say is that I would recommend viewing a good demo of an LED before dismissing the possible advantages.
In terms of contrast, the numbers may look very different between high end DLP and JVCs but the viewable differences are not so great IMO. Again, demoing is the only way to know if it is a real issue to you personally
Considering the hype around the RED projector it will be very interesting to see what some of the forum members make of it when it is 'in the wild' so to speak.

Video, unlike computer generated text, has very low MTF at spatial frequencies equal to the pixel grid of 1080, its in the order of 10%. This means there is no pixel level sharpness in the video and clearly defined sharp edged pixels represent a distortion as the image should ideally be smooth and pixel free, not a bunch of sharp edged blocks.

I have no problem with the color performance of UHP illuminated projectors, I have always been very happy with that area of performance. Same goes for sharpness, if I want more sharpness I'll boost lower spatial frequencies that affect visible sharpness while not making the pixels grip more obvious, an approach that JVC and Sony are now taking.

The one area of digital projector performance that I find VERY lacking is native contrast. The JVC's are just passable as far as I am concerned, DLP is just not acceptable.

If a manufacturer can come up with a LED illuminated projector with significantly greater native contrast than a top line JVC I would be interested, until then they are not for this little black duck.

Others no doubt have different priorities, to each their own.
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post #21 of 55 Old 12-12-2012, 08:39 PM
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The JVC's are just passable as far as I am concerned,DLP is just not acceptable.

You have obviously never seen a SIM Lumis.

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post #22 of 55 Old 12-12-2012, 09:03 PM
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Is the native contrast of that model 20 times better than other DLP's? That's the sort of contrast performance I am looking for as a MINIMUM.
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post #23 of 55 Old 12-12-2012, 11:28 PM
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If you want 20 times higher native contrast and a smooth film like look then there are some excellent deals to be found CRT projectors...

I presume that you wouldn't consider ANSI contrast to contribute greatly to video quality? Personally, I prefer my pixels to have nce sharp edges but thats my taste.

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post #24 of 55 Old 12-13-2012, 05:26 AM
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I have owned a JVC RS20, a Runco LS-5 and currently own a Runco Q-750i. The best? Unquestionably the Runco Q-750i. Can it be measured to be better to impress/satisfy the "specification readers"? Doubt it. However, it simply produces the best image I've seen from any projector regardless of price.

The other two projectors were great also but had their limitations. The JVC looked fantastic but its brightness was much poorer than its specs suggested, with a very significant and measurable drop in light output after approx 500hrs. It also does not reproduce colours as naturally as the Runco and there is a noticable however slight colour shift that develops over time. Many out there would suggest that the newer JVCs are better in these regards but I would have to disagree based on a direct comparison of my RS20 against the latest JVC's earlier this year. The RS20's black levels are certainly better than the Runco's but it loses out on in picture contrast.

The LS-5 was run side by side against the RS20 and was a visible step up. My wifes reaction when she first saw it was "Wow. I can't believe how much better that looks." She also continually reminded me to not turn on the LS-5 when prospective RS20 purchasers came over for a viewing as she believed that I wouldn't sell the RS20 if I did. The LS-5 did not display any colour shift and only a very slight lumens drop off at 1000 hrs. I didn't go past this point as I had an opportunity to move to the Q-750i for a ridiculously good price.

I again ran the Q-750i along side the LS-5 for some time and after some adjustment, I could not believe how good it looked. It almost looks 3 dimensional on high quality transfers. It's light output EASILY surpasses the JVC and is only just slightly behind the LS-5 despite its poor rated lumens. The colours/saturation is superb. I am running this on a 130" 2.35:1 Stewart Firehawk and it still looks incredible. Add to this the benefits of zero colour shift over the life of the projector meaning only one calibration required and a 10% light drop off during the 50,000hr life of the LED units.

I concur with views above regarding viewing specs versus a direct viewing or A/B comparison. There is plenty of BS out there regards specs and most companies quote their specs to wow audiences rather than truly portray how a projector will subjectively look. For example, lumens are often quoted at whitewash to allow exagerated output claims. Once properly calibrated, many units would measure much lower. Similar for contrast ratio -do we honestly believe some of the claims out there with 1 zillion:1 ratios that are not visible using the human eye?

Anyway, my 2 cents worth. The Runco can be had for significantly less than RRP -at the price I paid, it was an absolute steal.
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post #25 of 55 Old 12-13-2012, 06:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danieledmunds View Post

If you want 20 times higher native contrast and a smooth film like look then there are some excellent deals to be found CRT projectors...
I presume that you wouldn't consider ANSI contrast to contribute greatly to video quality? Personally, I prefer my pixels to have nce sharp edges but thats my taste.

I'm an ex CRT owner,if DLP was the only digital projector option I would still be using CRT as no way I can live with DLP contrast ratio, it would aggravate me constantly.
I don't want a projector that looks like an LCD panel, but since plenty of people like the look of LCD TV's I'm sure that plenty of people would find that kind of picture to their liking.
Whatever floats their boat.
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post #26 of 55 Old 12-13-2012, 07:23 AM
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Owen, I consider myself very particular - I dislike LCD panels like you and love the picture offered by CRT. I do not like projectors that offer digital looking images -I want mine to look as natural and lifelike as possible. In essence, what I used to see from the CRT's that I couldn't afford back then.

When I moved from the JVC RS20 to the Runco LS-5 I have to admit that I struggled with losing effective contrast ratio even though it was relatively small (the newer DLP's are much better than what could be had 5-7 years ago -I owned one back then before my RS20). I almost went back to JVC even though 90% of the performance (anything other than a very dark scene) was significantly better on the Runco. The flipside to this was I constantly fiddled with calibrations with my RS20 because the colour performance just left me disappointed. In the end the Runco Q-750i has bridged the contrast ratio gap and, while still behind the JVC, the difference is not appreciable. The Q-750i looks nothing like a DLP. It does not have a digital looking picture -closer to the CRT look if you ask me.

I can only suggest having a look at one of the better LED implementations. I am not suggesting that you would be won over by one but just think that you may be surprised (or may be not!).
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post #27 of 55 Old 12-13-2012, 08:39 AM
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Considering he can dismiss all DLPs as looking like LCD panels, I very much doubt there will be many suprises in store.

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post #28 of 55 Old 12-13-2012, 10:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanoo View Post

Owen, I consider myself very particular - I dislike LCD panels like you and love the picture offered by CRT. I do not like projectors that offer digital looking images -I want mine to look as natural and lifelike as possible. In essence, what I used to see from the CRT's that I couldn't afford back then.
When I moved from the JVC RS20 to the Runco LS-5 I have to admit that I struggled with losing effective contrast ratio even though it was relatively small (the newer DLP's are much better than what could be had 5-7 years ago -I owned one back then before my RS20). I almost went back to JVC even though 90% of the performance (anything other than a very dark scene) was significantly better on the Runco. The flipside to this was I constantly fiddled with calibrations with my RS20 because the colour performance just left me disappointed. In the end the Runco Q-750i has bridged the contrast ratio gap and, while still behind the JVC, the difference is not appreciable. The Q-750i looks nothing like a DLP. It does not have a digital looking picture -closer to the CRT look if you ask me.
I can only suggest having a look at one of the better LED implementations. I am not suggesting that you would be won over by one but just think that you may be surprised (or may be not!).

It all comes down to personal preference and priories. As far as I am concerned the current generation JVC's are plenty bright, plenty sharp and have excellent color once calibrated, the same can be said of many other relatively inexpensive projectors as well.
The only aspect of performance I find lacking in all of them, including the JVC's, is native contrast ratio and black level. Bright scenes look great but dark scene lack the depth that comes from true blacks, and thats something I really miss with digital.
Dynamic iris/back light systems are not an acceptable solution and a LED light source is not the answer either. A completely different projector technology will likely be required, probably one that does not rely on blocking light from a bright light source to create black. I therefore see LED illuminated conventional projection technology as a sideways step and one that in no way address what I see as the major weakness in digital projectors.

Top line JVC's have progressed significantly in contrast ratio, motion, sharpness and color performance since the days of the old RS20, so using as RS20 as a measure of JVC performance is pointless and outdated IMHO.

If brightness was my main priority I would go DLP, probably a three chipper.
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post #29 of 55 Old 12-14-2012, 12:36 AM
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Understand your comments and concur on many points. However, have to disagree with you regards the advancement in the JVC. As mentioned previously, I directly compared my RS20 only around 6 months ago against the current top of the line JVC at that time. Despite the additional zeros that have been added to contrast ratio claims the actual real world performance improvement is absolutely marginal at best. This view was reflected by the sales person who could have swayed my opinion (I was there to consider upgrading). He commented that the RS20 was the first JVC to deliver benchmark performance (previous RS1/RS2 had obvious performance issues excepting awesome blacks) and that improvements delivered in all of their newer models since this in terms of PQ had essentially been incremental. He actually stated that the upgrade wouldn't be worth the cost and I absolutely agreed.

Anyway, it is pretty clear that you have your unmovable opinion and that you are happy with what you have. I for one will not go back. The LED Runco is here to stay.
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post #30 of 55 Old 12-14-2012, 02:27 AM
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Contrast performance of JVC projectors, especially the dual iris model is heavily dependent on iris setting, the CR varies by about 50% from iris open to iris closed. Having said that, a 50% change is virtually impossible to notice in use so I agree there has only been an incremental change in real world CR performance.
However, the difference in CR between any DLP and even a base model JVC is many times greater than that and is noticeable in dark scenes where high CR is vital. To some people that relatively small visual difference matters but others wont find it significant, to each their own.

You are mistaken in thinking I am happy with what I have, far from it. I am after CR at least 5 times greater than is available from a top line JVC, thats a giant leap not an incremental step.

Without a completely new projection technology small incremental steps in performance is all we can expect, especially considering the high standard we already have. A LED light source in place of a UHP lamp in a DLP projector does not magically alter the way it performs, its still a DLP with its inherent characteristics, the same would apply if LED lighting was used in a DILA or LCoS projector.

A DLP with or without LED illumination takes me further away from my goal so understandably I dont see it as an option for me. If others think LED is a worthy advance more power to them.
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