Who has Preordered the Redray Player? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 42 Old 12-02-2012, 12:00 AM - Thread Starter
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The title says it all. I assume only those who have a 4K projector or panel will have placed a preorder or will be doing so..

If you do not know what the Redray 4K player is please see discussions in other threads or go to the Redray forum on Red's site.

I am just trying to determine who here has ordered one.

So far, I have orderd one and so has Joerod. I will edited this post as people post that they have preordered oneso that a complete list will be available without searching.

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post #2 of 42 Old 12-05-2012, 05:49 PM
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I think it is just a waste of money to invest in the 4K devices since there have been "ZERO" 4K contents to support this new format. It might take at least 5-10 years to just reach 1% of the market share if we are lucky enough. Also, don't count on the OTA stations to jump in since they are still using "480P" for their sub channels.
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post #3 of 42 Old 12-06-2012, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by X-2001 View Post

I think it is just a waste of money to invest in the 4K devices since there have been "ZERO" 4K contents to support this new format.
AFAIK, 35mm film (when scanned properly) is nearer to 4K than it is to 2K. That practically means that the majority of movies out there can potentially look better in 4K than they look in 2K. Of course there are problems, e.g. special effects are usually done at max 2K. But I think a 6K+ film scan, downscaled to 4K, should look very good, even if the special effects are only 2K.

Personally, I might be interested in RedRay, but it makes sense for me only if at least a couple of the major studios participate. Right now we don't know which major studios (if any) will be in. So I'm waiting how it plays out.
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post #4 of 42 Old 12-06-2012, 09:48 AM
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Potential purchasers of the Sony 4K set with the server or the Redray player are basically playing roulette.

There is no 'standard' and there's no guarantee that either will be around in several years. Also those potential buyers better be aware that most of the market has even less interest in 4K than 3D. The average set size has increased to about 50-in, but I doubt a majority of consumers have the space or budget to make the jump to a 4K 100-in+ display where even then you are just on the edge of beginning to see a difference at normal distance.

4K is hype. I have no interest in a 4K server or a Redray player until it is established enough to know I am not throwing my money away. It took BD six years to get to this point and that was with a very public and nasty format war. The studios have already shown that they are leary of another physical medium and the reality of the matter is that an extreme majority of the internet connected consumer does not have a pipe big enough to stream and it would take a day or more to download a true 4K file even with heavy compression.

The reality of 4K is that it will be sourced with upscaling 1080 content. Why do you think they chose exactly 3840x2160 for UltraHD/4K instead of the true 4K resolution? Simple it is much easier to scale when you are dealing with an integer scalar value... much much easier.

4K has a huge road in front of it. Broadcasters just made a massive investment in upgrading to 720/1080 broadcasts. Do you really think they are going to invest heavily in 4K?

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post #5 of 42 Old 12-06-2012, 10:09 AM
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RedRay is not only about 4K. It also supports 48fps, 12bit 4:2:2, bigger gamuts and 3D, all at the same time. Studio masters are usually not 8bit BT.709, but they have more bitdepth and a bigger gamut. So there are many benefits to RedRay, *if* content is coming for it. That's the one big question that is not answered yet. RedRay for commercial theaters might very well be a great success, but it could still fail as an end user platform. We'll have to wait and see about that.

I don't expect broadcasters to go 4K anytime soon. But that doesn't need to stop movie enthusiasts from wishing for a higher-quality source than Blu-Ray. Sure, the market may be small at first, or for a long time. But personally, I don't need RedRay to sell to the masses before I'm in. I know that living on the edge can be more expensive. Some people are willing to pay the price to get higher quality content today. I might be one of those.
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post #6 of 42 Old 12-06-2012, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post

RedRay is not only about 4K. It also supports 48fps, 12bit 4:2:2, bigger gamuts and 3D, all at the same time. Studio masters are usually not 8bit BT.709, but they have more bitdepth and a bigger gamut. So there are many benefits to RedRay, *if* content is coming for it. That's the one big question that is not answered yet. RedRay for commercial theaters might very well be a great success, but it could still fail as an end user platform. We'll have to wait and see about that.
I don't expect broadcasters to go 4K anytime soon. But that doesn't need to stop movie enthusiasts from wishing for a higher-quality source than Blu-Ray. Sure, the market may be small at first, or for a long time. But personally, I don't need RedRay to sell to the masses before I'm in. I know that living on the edge can be more expensive. Some people are willing to pay the price to get higher quality content today. I might be one of those.

Yup, if the content is there, I'd consider it even with my current 1080p projector if they're offering higher quality (outside of resolution). And if they take advantage of the technology and introduce some novel options like movies at home while they're still in the theaters (for a premium), it would be even more interesting.

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There is no 'standard' and there's no guarantee that either will be around in several years.

We're "rapidly" getting to the point where 'standards' are irrelevant. There's no 'standard' for online VOD, Netflix, Vudu, Amazon, iTunes, Xbox, all use their own unique systems to deliver content. The days of there being "one way", a 'standard' way to get content from content producers to end users are waning. Or, the other way to look at it is, IP is the standard now.

It's already clear that you don't need a 'standard' to deliver content to end users, you just need practical, viable technologies and content agreements.

Now that said, the real issue IMO is with "sales" and "ownership", I personally detest PPV (I really can't get past the mental block that it is actually the same thing as a physical rental). If I "buy" an electronic copy, I want to own it, and the most fundamental level of ownership I expect is that I can use that purchased copy should the seller disappear. That's my current big problem with digital "purchases"
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Also those potential buyers better be aware that most of the market has even less interest in 4K than 3D. The average set size has increased to about 50-in, but I doubt a majority of consumers have the space or budget to make the jump to a 4K 100-in+ display where even then you are just on the edge of beginning to see a difference at normal distance.
4K is hype. I have no interest in a 4K server or a Redray player until it is established enough to know I am not throwing my money away. It took BD six years to get to this point and that was with a very public and nasty format war. The studios have already shown that they are leary of another physical medium and the reality of the matter is that an extreme majority of the internet connected consumer does not have a pipe big enough to stream and it would take a day or more to download a true 4K file even with heavy compression.

I'm optimistic, RED and technology in general is rapidly breaking down barriers to distribution. It used to be you had to spend billions to develop a format/standard/infrastructure to get movies from you to the customer, and that means you have to compromise to get things down to a price that the "mass market" will not think twice about paying for. So while the mass market may be happy with Blu-ray, and Blu-ray prices continue to drop, and the mass market embraces low quality streaming. The same technology advancements that allow that will also allow smaller companies (RED?) to serve the much smaller, but more demanding of quality and less concerned with cost market.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #7 of 42 Old 12-06-2012, 12:05 PM
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I'll wait and see what content is available. I'm afraid content pirating concerns will stall 4K content for the foreseeable future. But who knows.

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post #8 of 42 Old 12-06-2012, 01:53 PM
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I won't buy a 4K display until I have a chance to see the Red laser projector, which will have a Redplayer built in. Otherwise, I would have bought one. Actually, I don't plan to buy another projector, period, until I see the Red laser. The main concern for me is the low native contrast that's been reported. That's why I wouldn't buy one without seeing it first. All the other specs sound great on paper.

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post #9 of 42 Old 12-06-2012, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

Now that said, the real issue IMO is with "sales" and "ownership", I personally detest PPV (I really can't get past the mental block that it is actually the same thing as a physical rental). If I "buy" an electronic copy, I want to own it, and the most fundamental level of ownership I expect is that I can use that purchased copy should the seller disappear. That's my current big problem with digital "purchases"

Haha, look what I asked in the RED forum and the reply from the ODEMAX guy:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Farhat 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathias Rauen 
As an end user interested in highest quality movie watching, this whole REDray + ODEMAX system sounds very interesting to me. I do have 2 worries about the DRM, though. Generally, I don't like the "rent" model, I like to buy/own my favorite movies and store them on a big NAS. So here are my biggest worries:

(1) The internal 1GB harddisk might be useful for caching the downloads. But there's no way it's anywhere near big enough for building a movie collection. No single harddisk is likely to be ever big enough for that. Also it's not protected from hardware failure (e.g. RAID) in any way, so it could break down and lose all data. So will RR support playing back DRM protected movies from my own (self-built) NAS?

(2) With DVD and Blu-Ray I have the guarantee that I will be able to playback the movies "forever". There's no danger whatsoever of me ever losing this ability (at least as long as I rip the movies and back them up properly). Let's imagine ODEMAX takes off and I buy maybe 500 movies and store them on my NAS. Let's further imagine that a few years later for whatever funny reason ODEMAX goes bye-bye. What would happen to the movies I bought in that case? Would I still be able to play them back, even though the ODEMAX network is gone? Or is an online connection necessary for playback, even if the movies are fully bought, downloaded and stored on my NAS? I don't see me investing big bugs into a system if I have to fear that my new-bought movie collection may disappear into thin air at some point in the future.

Thanks!

1. Your movies, and the ODEMAX license that authorizes it to play on your player can of course be offloaded to external storage and re-ingested later.

2. Movies purchased for home or personal use, (non-theatrical) will be licensed in perpetuity. They are yours. They are however licensed to your player, or group of players. Licenses can be transferred within your account to other players, as previous ones are decommissioned. And yes, even if an asteroid hit ODEMAX and all its network datacenters, you can still play what you've purchased, 'offline'. If you're offline, you just won't be able to buy new movies or take advantage of free material.

Sounds good so far, but I've followed up with another question to clarify what happens when ODEMAX goes down and my player hardware breaks. No reply yet, but I've just asked a few hours ago...
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post #10 of 42 Old 12-06-2012, 02:27 PM
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Unless ODEMAX is part of the UV alliance I bet you are pretty much SOL if ODEMAX fails. Their hands are most likely going to be tied by the content providers.

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post #11 of 42 Old 12-06-2012, 02:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

I'll wait and see what content is available. I'm afraid content pirating concerns will stall 4K content for the foreseeable future. But who knows.

Not to mention storage issues. Those of us with BD collections in the hundreds are finally seeing affordable options for server storage, but the thought of transferring a collection nearing 500 titles to a server doesn't excite me. Not to mention if the server crashes the time to rebuild it or the complexity and extra expense of creating a RAID array to avoid that problem.

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post #12 of 42 Old 12-06-2012, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Toknowshita View Post

Unless ODEMAX is part of the UV alliance I bet you are pretty much SOL if ODEMAX fails. Their hands are most likely going to be tied by the content providers.

Have you read the reply I got from the ODEMAX guy? It seems that offline playback of already bought movies works just fine.
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Not to mention storage issues. Those of us with BD collections in the hundreds are finally seeing affordable options for server storage, but the thought of transferring a collection nearing 500 titles to a server doesn't excite me. Not to mention if the server crashes the time to rebuild it or the complexity and extra expense of creating a RAID array to avoid that problem.

But what does this have to do with 4K? If you want to backup your Blu-Ray discs, you have the very same problem. I've been running a NAS with a RAID-like protection for years now. Not such a big problem. FWIW, RedRay 4K movies won't consume more space than Blu-Ray movies. I'm not sure how they did that, but it seems their codec is much more math intense compared to h264/h265. Maybe some kind of wavelet compression, I've no idea...
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post #13 of 42 Old 12-06-2012, 03:40 PM
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I admit to not being current on eveything 'RED' but have these guys pretty much only produced vaporware other than a non-consumer camera?

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post #14 of 42 Old 12-06-2012, 04:41 PM
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I am pretty excited. I am expecting pre loaded 4K content and the ability to download more at time of delivery. Movies shortly after. I have faith in Red (after speaking with them) and just have a huge thirst for 4K content. I am planning to release a full Review on the player soon. smile.gif

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post #15 of 42 Old 12-06-2012, 04:57 PM
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I've preordered too. I am really curious to see what happens at launch, given the time gap between that and Odemax. I kinda excitedly jumped into the preorder then started to read comments about what if any content would around when the player came out. I hope Joerod's right and we get something to look at with the player/around its launch smile.gif.

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post #16 of 42 Old 12-06-2012, 05:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaGamePimp View Post

I admit to not being current on eveything 'RED' but have these guys pretty much only produced vaporware other than a non-consumer camera?
Jason

This is a great company that's made some serious waves in the professional video market. They've shaken things up with high quality, high end production gear for really affordable prices (relatively speaking). You should check out the Reduser Forum, to see the enthusiasm and respect their users have for them as a company. Indie producers are practically beside themselves at the potential in these announcements (Redplayer and Odemax). The accolades are coming from all over the world.

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post #17 of 42 Old 12-06-2012, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

This is a great company that's made some serious waves in the professional video market. They've shaken things up with high quality, high end production gear for really affordable prices (relatively speaking). You should check out the Reduser Forum, to see the enthusiasm and respect their users have for them as a company. Indie producers are practically beside themselves at the potential in these announcements (Redplayer and Odemax). The accolades are coming from all over the world.

Yeah I get that but I seem to recall several products being mentioned for general consumers that have not yet materialized, or am I mistaken?

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post #18 of 42 Old 12-06-2012, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

I won't buy a 4K display until I have a chance to see the Red laser projector, which will have a Redplayer built in. Otherwise, I would have bought one. Actually, I don't plan to buy another projector, period, until I see the Red laser. The main concern for me is the low native contrast that's been reported. That's why I wouldn't buy one without seeing it first. All the other specs sound great on paper.
If you're ever in California and near RED HQ..I would suggest making an appointment to go in and check them out. They happily will show you the products (in their current stage) and the image quality. They have both Redrays and Red Lasers functioning.

I pre-ordered (2) players after seeing it in person. It's the real deal. I agree initial content will be sparse but of what you CAN initially see upon its release will be worth it. If you know anything about Jannard (founded Oakley, sold it, started RED) he doesn't play games or write checks his hands can't produce.
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post #19 of 42 Old 12-06-2012, 07:30 PM
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I'll probably do that, but only when the laser reaches a stage closer to final release. I'm afraid if I go out there now and see native contrast that's too low for my taste, I'll be put off. They're still working on it. I love the idea of passive 3D. I have an LG passive LCD, and the 3D is the easiest on my eyes and brain that I've ever experienced. But the contrast blows chunks.

What content did you see on their projector? What were your impressions?

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post #20 of 42 Old 12-06-2012, 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

I'll probably do that, but only when the laser reaches a stage closer to final release. I'm afraid if I go out there now and see native contrast that's too low for my taste, I'll be put off. They're still working on it. I love the idea of passive 3D. I have an LG passive LCD, and the 3D is the easiest on my eyes and brain that I've ever experienced. But the contrast blows chunks.
What content did you see on their projector? What were your impressions?
Note: I do not own a projector so I don't have much to compare it to. I have also never seen any other "consumer" rated 4k material or players other than RED.
It was NOT major studio media..it was different scenes in dark light, bright light, etc. to show the capabilities of the players. I was much more focused on the ability of the Redray. The pictures were just absolutely beautiful. There were so many different "scenarios" shown that I don't feel they were ONLY showing what the player excels at..but rather a wide gamut at what it can do. I feel the initial price point is OK to jump in for $1495 (x2). I don't mind starting out with more indie type of films until a few major studios decide to test the water with some content. I understand early adoption price/content when it comes to electronics. Will the RED be the best 4k player out there...who knows...but after seeing it I feel it's definitely worth the price. You just have to keep realistic expectations.

If the player itself were $2500+ I would not get it right off the bat...
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post #21 of 42 Old 12-06-2012, 08:08 PM
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Thanks. That's good to hear. My standard for contrast is the JVC, but I traded one away because its 3D sucks. When the time comes, I'll hop on a plane if need be to check out a Red projector. I have an open invitation to stay with an ex-student and his family. He's a 3D animator/supervisor for Sony and doesn't live too far from Red's offices.

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post #22 of 42 Old 01-08-2013, 01:40 AM
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Hmm now with Sony's announcement of a competing hardware based 4K player, I'm wondering how wise I was to preorder a Redray unit. Also noting Red has gone quiet considering the units were supposed to start shipping end of Dec...

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post #23 of 42 Old 01-08-2013, 01:57 AM
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Hmm now with Sony's announcement of a competing hardware based 4K player, I'm wondering how wise I was to preorder a Redray unit. Also noting Red has gone quiet considering the units were supposed to start shipping end of Dec...

Sonys true 4k anouncement is for a similar distribution set up as RED/Odemax, the disk based anouncement is still 1080p off 4K masters........as they do now mostly as I would think, perhaps with a higher bit rate and deep colour?..........Super Bit BluRay

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post #24 of 42 Old 01-08-2013, 02:18 AM - Thread Starter
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I watched the entire Sony CES press conference or rather stage show without any dancing girls.

Sony did say they would have a 4K content distribution sysyemup and running by summer. The stsage guy said it would be interenet distribution and hard disc but things were really vague. It was totally unclear whether this system would be only for Sony 4K panel buyers. I guess if they announce something as being the first even though it won't be up and running until after Red, then they and only they, Sony, won the race without running it.

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post #25 of 42 Old 01-08-2013, 02:38 AM
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I ordered one. I have no 4K projector. I will have one in time. I have my own content to master for the box and that alone makes it worthwhile for me.
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post #26 of 42 Old 01-08-2013, 03:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

I watched the entire Sony CES press conference or rather stage show without any dancing girls.
Sony did say they would have a 4K content distribution sysyemup and running by summer. The stsage guy said it would be interenet distribution and hard disc but things were really vague. It was totally unclear whether this system would be only for Sony 4K panel buyers. I guess if they announce something as being the first even though it won't be up and running until after Red, then they and only they, Sony, won the race without running it.

Doubt they would limit it to Sony 4K panel buyers, they will want to sell the content to as many as possible and likely try to get other studios involved. Could be a tie in with the PS4 as a playback device along with a stand alone box. Wonder if they will allow permanent storing and playing back at will by the consumer via encrypted hard disks.

If they do tie in the PS4 to the distribution system, they may have a winner.

Wouldn't mind a HD collection instead of a optical disk collection........the interface and movie selection process is bound to be snazzy and cool.

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post #27 of 42 Old 01-08-2013, 05:52 AM
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Any content we have ever had on a spinning silver disc has always been compressed.
DVD and standard-def TV on our larger screens sucked, and then HD-DVD & Blu-Ray & HDTV became a god-send.
Then we soon got spoiled and starting complaining about the compression artifacts, macroblocking, etc, in our HDTV broadcasts and Blu-Ray transfers.
And we want more colour too.

Are there any virtues in having uncompressed "2K" 1080P content along with a fuller colour spectrum, vs whatever means they choose to encode 4K ?


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post #28 of 42 Old 01-08-2013, 07:42 AM
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I would bet that the Hobbit will be on ODEMAX in 3d 48fps. They have ties in with Peter Jackson, and RED helped a lot on the Hobbit.
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post #29 of 42 Old 01-08-2013, 07:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post

Doubt they would limit it to Sony 4K panel buyers, they will want to sell the content to as many as possible and likely try to get other studios involved. Could be a tie in with the PS4 as a playback device along with a stand alone box. Wonder if they will allow permanent storing and playing back at will by the consumer via encrypted hard disks.
If they do tie in the PS4 to the distribution system, they may have a winner.
Wouldn't mind a HD collection instead of a optical disk collection........the interface and movie selection process is bound to be snazzy and cool.

The only thing we can go on are the words the head of sony hardware said on stage .He said Sony panel owners. There were absolutely no details about the server or how it would be served with content. They seemed to want to beat Red, saying they were the first, but they clearly will not beat red to market or delivery of a server.

i really got the impression that sony was trying to sway the financial world that it had a path to recovery and was on it.

Mark Haflich
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post #30 of 42 Old 01-08-2013, 07:45 AM
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Also Sony is doing Superbit blu-ray's that they are calling "Mastered in 4K" These will be higher bit-rate blu-rays but still 1080p. This is the transition for them, Untill HEVC(h265) is approved and have systems working with it.
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