If only Texas Instruments would adopt this technique in it's future DLP chips - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 18 Old 12-28-2012, 03:33 PM - Thread Starter
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As a owner of DLP projector I really would like to see DLP projectors back in the contrast and deep blacks game.
http://arbroath.blogspot.fi/2008/01/black-is-new-black-in-science.html
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post #2 of 18 Old 12-28-2012, 04:02 PM
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Its a material that absorbs light, better than say protec which is ised to line telescope barrels and lens barrels. How would you like TO to use. And as far as anybody knows TI is not developing any new chips not that the referenced material could be used in the manufacture of a flipping mirrors chip. Moverever, the little girl is now a young lady and God knows if the elephant is still aliveTI is breathing but that's about it for DLP chips.

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post #3 of 18 Old 12-29-2012, 01:29 AM
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That news seems to be from 2008 and it reads likes it is the Moth Eye technology.

It is a bit intresting if you search LCOS and Moth Eye you get an INTEL patent. I get the feeling Moth Eye could help both DLP and LCOS but can't find now articles talking about the potential use. Maybe it could be useful in 3LCD as well.

Moth Eye is going to start to appear in LCD flat panels made by Sharp.


Maybe someone can ask about this at CES?
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post #4 of 18 Old 12-29-2012, 02:51 AM - Thread Starter
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TI is not developing DLP chips anymore? So, nothing after the 4k chip I read about while ago?

Anyway I always thought that when dlp mirrors tilt, they tilt so much that the light goes into back of the mirror and scatters all around there. So this material would be perfect for absorbing it. So dlp chips would be needed to manufacture with other side mirror surface and other side with this light absorbing material.

Even though if my knowledge about inner works of dlp chip is incorrect, I assume the mirrors tilt just so much that the light goes away the proper light path instead to the screen. Projector makers could use this material to construct a light absorbing chamber for OFF state light of dlp chip. So now when ever the screen should be black the, the mirrors tilt and light goes this predefined path to some place in the projector and gets absorbed this black material.
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post #5 of 18 Old 12-29-2012, 03:46 AM
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I remember few years back, there is a discussion on using 2 DLP chip to increase the contrast near to thereotical 1000000:1. The first chip will reflect the light to second chip before going to the lens. So, take 1/1000 per chip x 1/1000 per chip.
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post #6 of 18 Old 12-29-2012, 06:43 AM
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Doesn't light leak through the spaces between the chips and also scatter off the chip edges. Ita all rather acedemic at this point. TI will not address the consumer market 5 yearsfrom now should Sim2 survive that long will be advertising that irt is using the latest TI dark chips which are now how many years old.

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post #7 of 18 Old 12-29-2012, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anidabi View Post

Projector makers could use this material to construct a light absorbing chamber for OFF state light of dlp chip. So now when ever the screen should be black the, the mirrors tilt and light goes this predefined path to some place in the projector and gets absorbed this black material.

That assumes the CR is limited by the efficacy of absorbing the reflected light, but it may well be due to diffraction of light off of the corners of the mirrors.

This is a much more difficult problem to address, as some of the diffracted light is at low angles that will go directly to the screen with the "good" light.

Noah
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post #8 of 18 Old 12-29-2012, 11:46 AM
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Hi Noah. happy new year. This is rediculous thread because TI has no interest in comming out with any new chips for consumer projector use. The market is just too small to justify the R7D expenses vs the potential for return.

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post #9 of 18 Old 12-30-2012, 02:43 AM
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As I understand it Moth Eye tech is going to help solar panels become more efficient. The same general concept might be able to applied to each micro-mirror.
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post #10 of 18 Old 12-30-2012, 08:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Its a material that absorbs light, better than say protec which is ised to line telescope barrels and lens barrels. How would you like TO to use. And as far as anybody knows TI is not developing any new chips not that the referenced material could be used in the manufacture of a flipping mirrors chip. Moverever, the little girl is now a young lady and God knows if the elephant is still aliveTI is breathing but that's about it for DLP chips.

 

Rather odd comments mark...

 

TI's market capitalization and stock price is approximately 3X's that of Sony.

 

TI and DMD chip development seem to be alive and well.  The "flipping mirrors chip" has a fan base that includes 3D optical metrology, medical & life sciences, optical networking, spectroscopy, and digital exposure.  In other words, the DMD technology is not limited to DLP projection.

 

I agree that DLP projection for high end home theater has slowed, but I think this as much a function of market opportunity as anything else.  $3000.00 to $5000.00 will get you a respectable DLP home theater projector today and there have been numerious, well under $3000.00, small DMD based projectors brought to market this year.  For my money DLP produces the best 3D home theater experience if you're into 3D.  We need more companies like SIM2 that are pushing the DMD DLP technology limits and bringing more competivite priceing for products like SIM2's Lumis.

 

True, the other technology has better black levels, but for me the small difference is a very small trade off for DLP picture shapness and not having to worry about banding, motion lag, and uniformity issues.

 

This application report dated July 2010 from TI seems to imply that there are improvements that can be had via light engine design, materials used, tolerance, and the use of LED or laser light source technology; not just the DMD chip.

 

http://www.ti.com/lit/an/dlpa022/dlpa022.pdf

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post #11 of 18 Old 12-30-2012, 09:01 AM
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When I view TI, I just view what it is doing for Ht projectors. The DC4 chip is getting very old and there is no new one coming. TI started on a 2.35 chip and dumped the project early because it would be a big money loser. Three chip DC4 machines are extremely nice Good for consumers but expensive. Could they be better with an improved chip, of course. But TI has basically said thats it, no more of our money will be spent on chip R and D for the consumer market. Our licencees can add do dads and better integrator rods and lasers whatever they want, we are done and the market is gullable to read the manufacturers' proud exclamation, out newest best machine this year uses the latest TI Dark Chips. . For the cheap machines, DC2, DC3, small chip size whatever. We don't have to tell.

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post #12 of 18 Old 12-30-2012, 10:45 AM
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I agree with you Mark. As a DLP fan, I'm sad to see the end of development for the HT market, but for different reasons than you, I suspect. The current compromises for LCoS and 3LCD PJs are worse than the black level compromise of a good .95" DC3 or DC4 implementation for me. However, such a projector is still out of my price range (.95" DC3 or DC4, single chip, 3D with good brightness). Without high-end development and new DMDs, the current good stuff does not come down in price until the alternative techs match or best what DLP excels at. I'd like a 3D .95" DC3 with over 1000 lumens at $3500, but there is no way that is going to happen, as only the Sim2 and Runcos of the world are developing products on that DMD platform... Even used, those will be expensive projectors for a number of years.

"A wide screen just makes a bad film twice as bad. "
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I wonder what he'd think about 3D IMAX?
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post #13 of 18 Old 12-30-2012, 03:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b curry View Post

This application report dated July 2010 from TI seems to imply that there are improvements that can be had via light engine design, materials used, tolerance, and the use of LED or laser light source technology; not just the DMD chip.

http://www.ti.com/lit/an/dlpa022/dlpa022.pdf

From your link:

"Can be dynamically dimmed or boosted to greatly improve contrast or brightness or create multiple white point and color gamut modes."

These things have already been done by the DLP LED pj mfgr's;

Noah
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post #14 of 18 Old 12-31-2012, 07:43 AM
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All sorts of things could still be done. most significantly I would thing a laser light source. Certain manufacturers have strived to squeek out additional performance so they can replace there $40K projector with a better $60K one. But TI is not going to make a better chip. They could though they would have to hire back people they laid off and and the R&D and production costs would not be recoupespecially with enough profit not to impact adversely on their financial performance. Its all about making money.

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post #15 of 18 Old 12-31-2012, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

All sorts of things could still be done. most significantly I would thing a laser light source.

I believe that would help CR only moderately from decreased entendue.

Unless it scans, and then you don't need the DMD.

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post #16 of 18 Old 12-31-2012, 10:58 AM
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True. But we aren't going to get a new chip, even one with only moderate increases in desirable qualities.

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post #17 of 18 Old 12-31-2012, 11:12 AM
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Screw DLP, go Grating Light Valve!
Happy New Year!)
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post #18 of 18 Old 01-03-2013, 11:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

That assumes the CR is limited by the efficacy of absorbing the reflected light, but it may well be due to diffraction of light off of the corners of the mirrors.
This is a much more difficult problem to address, as some of the diffracted light is at low angles that will go directly to the screen with the "good" light.

DLP as a tech is so sensitive to system design... secondary reflections from the off-state through the lens are, well, secondary according to the TI docs on optical design considerations for single chip DLP systems. The fact of the matter is that the things most people associate as negatives for DLP in regards to placement flexibility are precisely the things needed to maximize native CR: high offset, long throw, limited (if any) lens shift. It is no wonder that projectors like the W7000 have poor CR, as they violate nearly every design tip provided by TI for optimizing contrast. You want a DLP with good contrast and deep blacks? look for a bulky, long throw, limited/no shift, high offset projector. Wishing (like I do from time to time) for a DLP with exceptional contrast, high brightness and placement flexibility for retroreflective screens is indeed wishing for a new DMD process (one that reduces the reflective properties of the DMD substrate, reduces the light scatter from the micro mirror edges, and/or uses higher on/off angles of the micro mirrors). The Mitsu HC8000D uses about every trick TI offers to improve contrast from what I can tell, but is not HP friendly as some wish for 3D. Not sure what else there is for HT DLP except gradual price drops as other techs improve where DLP is currently perceived to have an advantage (e.g. 3D, motion & possibly color).
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"A wide screen just makes a bad film twice as bad. "
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I wonder what he'd think about 3D IMAX?
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