Sony Laser Projection...... Update - Page 3 - AVS Forum

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Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

hifiaudio2's Avatar hifiaudio2
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01-30-2013 | Posts: 2,710
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Sorry Mark. I read the whole first page and skimmed this one. I'm sure it won't be the last time you repost something. ..like maybe about how perfect the Smowmatte screen is? smile.gif
coolscan's Avatar coolscan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by space2001 View Post

I started the thread to talk about Sony Laser projectors in General. I can't talk to much about it but they did have a showing of SOMETHING SOMEWHERE with a Black curtain.
Did you see it projecting an moving image? And if so; did you notice any Specles problem (random "grain or blinking stars" besides "normal" grain).
inky blacks's Avatar inky blacks
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http://thejournal.com/articles/2013/01/29/mitsubishi-launches-lamp-free-hybrid-laser-projector.aspx

I bet the Mitsubishi will be cheaper.
sstephen's Avatar sstephen
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I know when they start integrating speakers into the projector, they aren't targeting me. smile.gif
space2001's Avatar space2001
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01-31-2013 | Posts: 2,052
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolscan View Post

Did you see it projecting an moving image? And if so; did you notice any Specles problem (random "grain or blinking stars" besides "normal" grain).

No Specles, Yes a moving image.
tvted's Avatar tvted
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolscan View Post

That is kind of the big question.
In general it is no difference. A RGB laser will give better and wider colorspace than a lamp. With laser light engine you also save on the optics because you can use a lens with a smaller aperture/F-stop because of the difference in Etendue. Lenses with smaller aperture is much cheaper to make. Think f/4-f/6 for laser and f/1.8 for lamp is typical.
This also gives a deep DOF so there will be less need for focusing the lens.

The larger glass will be more effective for transmission. There is a 3 to 4 stop difference with the the numbers you quoted from the 1.8. This amounts to a difference of 1/8th to 1/16th the amount of lumens at the lens vs. the 1.8 so you compromise your output.

I assume by DOF you mean depth of focus? Depth of field would be of no value on a a single-plane source like a image chip.

td
coolscan's Avatar coolscan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvted View Post

The larger glass will be more effective for transmission. There is a 3 to 4 stop difference with the the numbers you quoted from the 1.8. This amounts to a difference of 1/8th to 1/16th the amount of lumens at the lens vs. the 1.8 so you compromise your output.

I assume by DOF you mean depth of focus? Depth of field would be of no value on a a single-plane source like a image chip.

td

The difference is because of the difference in Étendue between Bulb an Laser sources.
The result is that you can use optics with higher F number without sacrificing brightness and contrast.
Because of the use of higher F-number optics you get an almost endless (as you corrected) depth of field that ensure screen focus from almost all distances. (provided of course the optics are used for the throw distances the projector is built for.)

Same reason the small laser based Pico projectors doesn't need a focus adjustments.
The Blog; "Laser with LCOS is Focus Free — Yes Really" is really about Pico projectors, but there is no difference for large projectors.

Read this PDF, "Future prospects of high-end laser projectors" from the European Osiris project, the most comprehensible research project on laser projection to understand the difference in Etendue..
This explains it much better than I can do.
http://www.osiris-project.eu/uploads/presentations/7232-34_photonics.pdf
Here are some excerpts;
Quote:
2.2 Étendue
The étendue of a light source is determined by the product of the emitting surface and the solid angle of the light
emission. For a short arc lamp the étendue is defined by the arc length. More powerful lamps have longer arcs, and thus a
larger étendue.

Lasers, on the other hand, have very small étendue, which is determined by the diameter of the beam waist
and the divergence angle of the beam and both of them are very small for most lasers.

The étendue of a projector is determined by the f-number of the light incident on the light valve and the size of the light valve.
The performance of today’s lamp-based high-end projectors is limited by the law of étendue: in a perfect optical system
étendue is conserved, but it can never be reduced without light losses and only the part of the light from the lamp that fits
inside the étendue of the light valve can be used. In order to collect more light from the light source (this can be one or
more lamps), the f-number of the system can be decreased. This increases the étendue acceptance of the system and the
system becomes brighter.

For a projector using a lamp one always has a trade-off between brightness versus contrast ratio, efficiency and depth of
focus. Figure 3 shows the typical behavior of brightness and contrast as a function of the f-number for a projector with a
lamp.
There is not such a trade-off for projectors based on lasers, or it comes only into play for very high brightness
levels.
As the étendue of a laser is very small compared to the étendue of today’s projectors, one can easily combine
several laser sources, without any light losses and still keep the f-number high.

There are also some words about this here in an article that also describe the Kodak laser projector, now being built by Barco for Imax.
One of the cost argument Kodak had in their original presentation of the projector was the saving on optics compared to lamb based projectors, which would combined with lamp cost saving offset some of the increase in cost because of the price of lasers.
http://www.laserfocusworld.com/articles/print/volume-48/issue-03/features/lasers-inject-new-life-into-projection-displays.html
Quote:
High-brightness demonstration

The optics were slowed from f/2.4 to f/6.0, while the conventional prism combiner was replaced with dichroic plates to improve contrast and further reduce costs. Speckle reduction was accomplished throughout the machine using multiple techniques strategically placed to keep the optical efficiency high while reducing optomechanical complexity.

noah katz's Avatar noah katz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvted View Post

The larger glass will be more effective for transmission.

Are you sure about that?

That would seem to mean that transmission is nonlinear, i.e decdreases varies with brightness (lumens per lens area)
noah katz's Avatar noah katz
04:28 PM Liked: 183
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coolscan, thanks for the links and excerpts.

Is there then a bottom-line improvement in CR we can expect with a laser pj?
tvted's Avatar tvted
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Are you sure about that?

That would seem to mean that transmission is nonlinear, i.e decdreases varies with brightness (lumens per lens area)

Sorry, I'm subjet to studio talk. By larger glass I meant larger Aperture (smaller F numbers). I should have referred to Aperture solely without suggestions to glass area.

td
tvted's Avatar tvted
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coolscan,

Interesting links re the gains as a result of collimated light that a laser can provide.

td
mark haflich's Avatar mark haflich
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Thanks Coolscan. You are a very valuable asset here. I learn a lot from you.
coolscan's Avatar coolscan
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To give a general answer to the questions asked here after my last post.

After the Osiris project was culminated in 2010, there has been very little public information about laser projectors. Seems like all R&D have disappeared into the various companies that guard their development against the competition, or only published papers behind Pay-Walls.
Because of this, it is impossible to conclude anything about what sort of gains Laser projectors will have compared to bulb projectors, except what we already know.
I will as always both depend on difference between what imaginer systems that is use (Lcos/DLP) and what type of lasers (Solid State Lasers/Semiconductor Diode lasers).

There are not even any real confirmations of what is holding them back. Is it unsolved Speckle problems, Laser costs or a combination of both?

AVS had several very good articles and videos on the technical presentation of the Kodak DLP laser projectors back in 2010, but most of the links are dead.
For those that haven't seen the videos and want to know more about Laser projectors. This videos gives a good insight in the principle and problems with using Laser for projector light engines.
Here is the link; http://www.youtube.com/user/avscience?feature=watch Scroll down; There are ten videos in the complete presentation.

Out of the little that have been released of information since 2010, there seems to still be some problems to solve with laser projectors, maybe particularly with smaller HT units that will use semiconductor diode lasers.

Wish there where more openness about the latest developments and problems connected to laser driven HT projectors.
mark haflich's Avatar mark haflich
09:03 AM Liked: 585
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I think we can all relax. Ted from Red said their $10K projector 4K and laser is coming in 4 to 6 more months. So I am sure all problems have been solved or will be imminently solved to allow procurement, production, and delivery in 6 months. So all this other stuff will just be another historical foot note.


Wait a minute. Ted has said things like that before. Maybe I should be worried.

Question, while it would be nice to eliminate the need and expense of changing bulbs, do we need laser projectors and should we lament not getting them.

Should we shout, Thank You Mr. Edison. You are still on that wall (actually under it) when we need you.
yyy484's Avatar yyy484
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02-03-2013 | Posts: 235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolscan View Post

To give a general answer to the questions asked here after my last post.

After the Osiris project was culminated in 2010, there has been very little public information about laser projectors. Seems like all R&D have disappeared into the various companies that guard their development against the competition, or only published papers behind Pay-Walls.
Because of this, it is impossible to conclude anything about what sort of gains Laser projectors will have compared to bulb projectors, except what we already know.
I will as always both depend on difference between what imaginer systems that is use (Lcos/DLP) and what type of lasers (Solid State Lasers/Semiconductor Diode lasers).

There are not even any real confirmations of what is holding them back. Is it unsolved Speckle problems, Laser costs or a combination of both?

AVS had several very good articles and videos on the technical presentation of the Kodak DLP laser projectors back in 2010, but most of the links are dead.
For those that haven't seen the videos and want to know more about Laser projectors. This videos gives a good insight in the principle and problems with using Laser for projector light engines.
Here is the link; http://www.youtube.com/user/avscience?feature=watch Scroll down; There are ten videos in the complete presentation.

Out of the little that have been released of information since 2010, there seems to still be some problems to solve with laser projectors, maybe particularly with smaller HT units that will use semiconductor diode lasers.

Wish there where more openness about the latest developments and problems connected to laser driven HT projectors.

I dont think its about problems since Pico laser projector doing very well the last 2 years or longer !!
Laser projection is the cutting edge

IMO its all about marketing policy
not advancing the tech to consumers needs to balance the price and size for PQ to be competitive with LED panels .. and again they are the same company how brings TV panels out ..
its a GAME goes step by step and they got all the time biggrin.gif
coolscan's Avatar coolscan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

coolscan, thanks for the links and excerpts.

Is there then a bottom-line improvement in CR we can expect with a laser pj?

Looking through some old papers (2010/2011).

The Lcos laser projector they used in the Osiris project, which was a open board rig with no cover and a F/8.5 lens they measured 8000:1 in on/off. They expected it would be higher in a proper projector.

The Kodak DLP laser prototype at an exhibition at the Kodak theater on Gain-1 white screen measured on/off 10.000:1. But they had a earlier version at 20K:1, and expected a commercial version would reach that measure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Question, while it would be nice to eliminate the need and expense of changing bulbs, do we need laser projectors and should we lament not getting them.
Definitely. wink.gif

Brightness.
Better Color purity and color saturation.
Long light life with no dimming and color degradation and calibration need over 10.000 hours and not after 500 or 1000 hours like bulbs.
No need to color light with color filters.
Possible for one chip designs without color wheels and 3chip panel alignment problems. Dual Head chip design for full 3D resolution for both eyes is possible .

Wider color space. Up to 90% of the eyes ability to see visible light.
Laser color space is about the same as the new Rec.2020.

Rec. 709.


Rec. 2020


Some other color spaces.

Ilya Volk's Avatar Ilya Volk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolscan View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

coolscan, thanks for the links and excerpts.

Is there then a bottom-line improvement in CR we can expect with a laser pj?

The Kodak DLP laser prototype at an exhibition at the Kodak theater on Gain-1 white screen measured on/off 10.000:1. But they had a earlier version at 20K:1, and expected a commercial version would reach that measure.

Without dynamic iris, I hope? If so, that would be a revolution in DLP we were waiting so long.

UPD

http://motion.kodak.com/motion/uploadedFiles/Kodak/motion/Products/Laser_Projection_Technology/us_en_laser-projection_LDR-article.pdf
"Kodak Demonstrates Laser Projector. Kodak (Rochester, NY) has developed an 11K-lumen laser projector with a 10K:1 dynamic range"

What do they mean by "dynamic range"? Is it actual native contrast?
space2001's Avatar space2001
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Don't forget with Laser driven source you can adjust the brightness on the fly. In a darker scene of the movie, the light output can be lowered, just like the auto iris. This will also help with Ghosting on 3d systems, when they do there blanking frames.
Ilya Volk's Avatar Ilya Volk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by space2001 View Post

Don't forget with Laser driven source you can adjust the brightness on the fly. In a darker scene of the movie, the light output can be lowered, just like the auto iris.

Yes, I forgot abouth that. But adjusting the brighness doesn't improve native contrast, so the question remains the same.

I am hoping that laser source would increase contrast because of absence of scatter light. If I understand the technology correctly.
Thebes's Avatar Thebes
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Hi,

here is one (with 4K) :

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1510502/sony-lifespace-ux-a-4k-ultra-short-throw-laser-projector#post_24177841
baloo_btru's Avatar baloo_btru
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I've seen this posted a few places now. Is it meant for use with a screen? Or just the wall? The pictures make it seem like its projected right onto the wall which is weird.
Thebes's Avatar Thebes
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Hi,

on a wall :


noah katz's Avatar noah katz
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No reason a screen wouldn't work, and work better.

It would have to be very diffusive to deal with the large angle of incidence.
Blackman's Avatar Blackman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yyy484 View Post

well... not gonna be like $25k (better by a car) tongue.gif
more like $10k vs RedRay projector ....

and wait .. the other products coming up !!!
LG "HECTO" Laser TV with active screen ( i like that ) biggrin.gif


thanks

Yes please any new news on the New Hecto with Active screen?
Thanks
space2001's Avatar space2001
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http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Press/201402/14-024E/index.html

Didn't see anything posted on this. Laser scanning pico from Sony.
bobpaule's Avatar bobpaule
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Slightly off topic, but related to laser tech.

July will bring to the US the first "mass" produced laser headlight car,
the $130k BMW i8, Audi also showed a prototype.

1000x brighter with 1/2 energy use:

noah katz's Avatar noah katz
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That's a promising development.
J.P's Avatar J.P
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Its the same principle Sony is using for their "short throw" lifestyle projector and their "business" LCD. Blue laser which excites a phosphorous material. This creates white light, not harmful for eyes.

My guess, is that this same light source will also show up in next gen. VW1000 VW500/600.
Tags: Sony

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