Runco 750d and 24p - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 31 Old 01-09-2013, 10:19 AM - Thread Starter
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I have a Runco Q-750d (projector and processor) hooked to an Integra DHC 80.3 receiver. If I try to play a Blu-Ray disc in 24p mode the Integra and the Runco can not negotiate the 1080/24p format. You can see the displays on the two flashing all kinds of info, mostly No Signal, as they attempt to agree. I tried turning deep color off but it doesn't make a difference. To take the Blu-Ray player out of the mix, I just set the monitor out of the Integra to a fixed 1080/24p and the Runco will not agree on the signal.

If I hook the Blu-Ray player directly to the Runco, the 24p works. If I hook the monitor out of the Integra to a LCD display that accepts 24p that works, too.

Anyone had experience with 24p on this Runco?
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post #2 of 31 Old 01-09-2013, 10:40 AM
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I have a Q750i and it accepts 1080p24 just fine. What is the player? Can you force both the player and receiver to 24? Also try swapping the cables around.

Jeremy
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post #3 of 31 Old 01-09-2013, 10:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agrsiv95 View Post

I have a Q750i and it accepts 1080p24 just fine. What is the player? Can you force both the player and receiver to 24? Also try swapping the cables around.
Jeremy

Yes, I have tried playing with cables and trying other cables. The player is a Sony BDP-S590. I think the 750i does not have the separate video processor so your configuration may be different. Like I said, if I hook the player to the Runco processor it will negotiate the 24p but it won't negotiate it with the receiver. Do you send your HDMI through a receiver and then to the Runco? I did try forcing both the player and receiver to 24p but that did not help. If I have the player hooked to the receiver and disconnect the receiver from the Runco, the player and the receiver will negotiate the 24p (I get the sound from the disc) but if I then hook the receiver back to the Runco, they try to negotiate the 24p and they fail.
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post #4 of 31 Old 01-09-2013, 11:31 AM
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I have all sources run through a Anthem D2v. AFIK, the processor is the same but the Q750d is setup for longer runs. Can you see the info page in the runco menu to verify the are sending the same output? Some source refresh rates are off a little bit (60 can be 59.94) which the runco may not like.
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post #5 of 31 Old 01-09-2013, 11:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agrsiv95 View Post

I have all sources run through a Anthem D2v. AFIK, the processor is the same but the Q750d is setup for longer runs. Can you see the info page in the runco menu to verify the are sending the same output? Some source refresh rates are off a little bit (60 can be 59.94) which the runco may not like.

When the Runco is trying to negotiate I don't think the menu will come up. With the player connected directly to the Runco, the Runco display does say 1024/24 so at least I know that. Also the receiver says it is getting 1024/24 from the player as it is negotiating with the Runco (the receiver shows what the input is and the output). I wish there was a way to set the Runco resolution to 1024/24 so it would not have to negotiate but that does not seem possible. One thing I know is that my firmware is not the latest but I have to get the dealer to come out and update the firmware since Runco will not give it to end users and you have to use their software and an RS-232 connection to do the update.

By the way, as long as I am not trying to do 24p, everything works great. It's not the player because I hooked my laptop up to the receiver and set the laptop to 24p and had the same problem.
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post #6 of 31 Old 01-09-2013, 11:49 AM
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No experience with any of these devices, but you don't mention how long the cable run is from the receiver to the projector. Have you tired physically moving all devices under the projector and using short cables?
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post #7 of 31 Old 01-09-2013, 11:51 AM
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I looked up the manual and it says 23.98/24.00. If it is seeing different it will not connect. I have tried to send 1080/48 as the projector changes 24 to 48 anyway but it will not accept it either. The manual says 1080/47.95 but the D2v will not output it. Is the Integra end user upgradable?
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post #8 of 31 Old 01-09-2013, 11:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airscapes View Post

No experience with any of these devices, but you don't mention how long the cable run is from the receiver to the projector. Have you tired physically moving all devices under the projector and using short cables?

None of my cables is more than 6 foot and I have tried a few different HDMI cables. I appreciate all your help!
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post #9 of 31 Old 01-09-2013, 11:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agrsiv95 View Post

I looked up the manual and it says 23.98/24.00. If it is seeing different it will not connect. I have tried to send 1080/48 as the projector changes 24 to 48 anyway but it will not accept it either. The manual says 1080/47.95 but the D2v will not output it. Is the Integra end user upgradable?

Yes, Integra does post their firmware upgrades and I have the latest firmware on the receiver. I have no way of knowing if the receiver is putting out exactly 24p other than knowing that the receiver was able to successfully negotiate 24p with a monitor I hooked up to it.
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post #10 of 31 Old 01-09-2013, 12:07 PM
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All that's left is the firmware update to the runco and I hope it fixes it for you.
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post #11 of 31 Old 01-09-2013, 03:35 PM
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I found this is the receiver thread.

Originally Posted by hidefpaul

^ ^ to disable video processing in the 80.3 do the following: Using the buttons on the receivers front panel press and hold both the [VCR/DVR] button and press the [return] button. the display should show VIDEO PROCESSING: SKIP
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post #12 of 31 Old 01-09-2013, 03:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agrsiv95 View Post

I found this is the receiver thread.
Originally Posted by hidefpaul
^ ^ to disable video processing in the 80.3 do the following: Using the buttons on the receivers front panel press and hold both the [VCR/DVR] button and press the [return] button. the display should show VIDEO PROCESSING: SKIP

There are menu setting to turn off video processing and I tried that. Integra told me about another button combo to turn off deep color and I tried that too. Didn't make a difference. Thanks for the help.
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post #13 of 31 Old 01-09-2013, 03:51 PM
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Stu54,
Similar to your HT system, my projector is a Runco Q-750D connected to an Integra DHC-80.2; My blu-ray player is a Panasonic which is set for 24p output and i haven't had any HDMI synching issues.
However, when i first got my Q-750D i had a huge amount of problems trying to get a HDMI connection to lock on properly between the A/V processor and the projector, to the point that i had to bring the external processor box for repair/exchange to the nearest authorized Runco repair facility after a lot of discussion with the dealer and the repair technician, who told me that he would ship it back to Runco, as that apparently is the company's policy.
When i got my new external processor box and seeing that it exhibited the same problem i decided on a whim to go to the service menu and do a full system re-set, making sure that all HDMI cable connections were in place, and all my problems disappeared permanently ! There wasn't anything wrong with either one of the external processor boxes and i realized that both dealer and local Runco repair facility in MA failed miserably by not instructing customers experiencing connection problems to ALWAYS do a full system re-set after cabling and before calibration.
I would recommend you try doing the same; Just write down your calibration settings before doing system re-set so that you can re-enter them afterwards, and in case you don't have the six digit access code for SERVICE ~ CALIBRATION of the Q-750D, here it is ;
click ENTER once - click RIGHT twice - click LEFT twice - click ENTER once.
Scroll down past CALIBRATION to SERVICE and select SYSTEM RE-SET, which takes less than one minute; Hopefully that will help fix your HDMI "handshake issues" just as it did in my situation.
Marcos
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post #14 of 31 Old 01-09-2013, 03:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MCaugusto View Post

Stu54,
Similar to your HT system, my projector is a Runco Q-750D connected to an Integra DHC-80.2; My blu-ray player is a Panasonic which is set for 24p output and i haven't had any HDMI synching issues.
However, when i first got my Q-750D i had a huge amount of problems trying to get a HDMI connection to lock on properly between the A/V processor and the projector, to the point that i had to bring the external processor box for repair/exchange to the nearest authorized Runco repair facility after a lot of discussion with the dealer and the repair technician, who told me that he would ship it back to Runco, as that apparently is the company's policy.
When i got my new external processor box and seeing that it exhibited the same problem i decided on a whim to go to the service menu and do a full system re-set, making sure that all HDMI cable connections were in place, and all my problems disappeared permanently ! There wasn't anything wrong with either one of the external processor boxes and i realized that both dealer and local Runco repair facility in MA failed miserably by not instructing customers experiencing connection problems to ALWAYS do a full system re-set after cabling and before calibration.
I would recommend you try doing the same; Just write down your calibration settings before doing system re-set so that you can re-enter them afterwards, and in case you don't have the six digit access code for SERVICE ~ CALIBRATION of the Q-750D, here it is ;
click ENTER once - click RIGHT twice - click LEFT twice - click ENTER once.
Scroll down past CALIBRATION to SERVICE and select SYSTEM RE-SET; Hopefully that will help fixing your HDMI "handshake issues" just as it did in my situation.
Marcos

That might be worth a try. Can you tell me the firmware version on your Runco? I think I want to try the firmware upgrade first before I try the reset.
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post #15 of 31 Old 01-09-2013, 04:10 PM
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Model : DHD3
Boot Version : 3.1
Firmware Version : 4.3
Micro Version : 3.5
Could you also post the specs for your unit ?
Also, don't be afraid to use the full system re-set as i suggested; I was really nervous before trying it for the first time which turned out to be unfounded; All it does is it cleans up the entire "path" and afterwards the user has to input all calibration settings again, that's all.
I have done system re-set (out of curiosity) at least three times since my new external box arrived last year without any problems...
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post #16 of 31 Old 01-09-2013, 08:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MCaugusto View Post

Model : DHD3
Boot Version : 3.1
Firmware Version : 4.3
Micro Version : 3.5
Could you also post the specs for your unit ?
Also, don't be afraid to use the full system re-set as i suggested; I was really nervous before trying it for the first time which turned out to be unfounded; All it does is it cleans up the entire "path" and afterwards the user has to input all calibration settings again, that's all.
I have done system re-set (out of curiosity) at least three times since my new external box arrived last year without any problems...

ok so I tried the reset but it did not fix the problem. My specs are
Model DHD3
Display Name Q-750D
Output Resolution 1920x1080
Boot 3.1
Firmware 4.6
Micro 3.5

I confirmed that the reset worked by changing a setting and seeing that it changed back after the reset. I also powered down
and powered back up everything after the reset.
On my system almost every setting and calibration is the default (usually zero) value so there was not much to restore after
the reset. I did not uncable and recable after the reset. I think the complete power down would have the same effect.
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post #17 of 31 Old 01-11-2013, 09:31 PM
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Do you guys know if the D and I run the same firmware?

Mine is still in storage awaiting the house to be done, but I do not believe I am running as current a firmware. Do you have the firmware from the factory? I have the install software if you need it.

David

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post #18 of 31 Old 01-12-2013, 06:57 AM
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I don't think so, the software in my I is mp18-gp02-2015. Led driver 2.2.40.
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post #19 of 31 Old 01-12-2013, 08:55 AM
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I didn't think so either, considering that the Q750D and Q750i have a few different features for each model, like "Adaptive Contrast" which is not available on the Q-750D, much to my chagrin.
On the other hand i never thought of downloading firmware updates for my Q750D considering i bought it a little more than one year ago and never realized that projectors get firmware updates often, but now seeing that Stu54 has firmware version 4.6 installed in his unit and my pj still has version 4.3 i wonder what kind of improvement, if any, could i expect from the newer version.
Am i correct in assuming the only way to download firmware updates to the Runco Q750D is by bringing the DHD3 Controller Box to a local Runco dealer~authorized repair facility or ship it to the company ? That would be really stupid and time consuming, considering that the controller box has USB and RS-232 input connectors and i imagine either one could be used for PC connection and firmware downloading + installation at home.
Stu54, i am surprised that "system reset" did not work for you; Your description of the problem seemed to mirror very closely the issue i had when i installed my Q750D and btw, i had to connect the HD cable box to my Integra DHC-80.2 using component connection instead of HDMI because the Integra would not agree on a HDMI "handshake". There are several posts on the threads for "Integra DHC-80.2 and DHC-80.3" indicating that Onkyo Integra models are notorious for being "HDMI finicky"...
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post #20 of 31 Old 01-12-2013, 11:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MCaugusto View Post

I didn't think so either, considering that the Q750D and Q750i have a few different features for each model, like "Adaptive Contrast" which is not available on the Q-750D, much to my chagrin.
On the other hand i never thought of downloading firmware updates for my Q750D considering i bought it a little more than one year ago and never realized that projectors get firmware updates often, but now seeing that Stu54 has firmware version 4.6 installed in his unit and my pj still has version 4.3 i wonder what kind of improvement, if any, could i expect from the newer version.
Am i correct in assuming the only way to download firmware updates to the Runco Q750D is by bringing the DHD3 Controller Box to a local Runco dealer~authorized repair facility or ship it to the company ? That would be really stupid and time consuming, considering that the controller box has USB and RS-232 input connectors and i imagine either one could be used for PC connection and firmware downloading + installation at home.
Stu54, i am surprised that "system reset" did not work for you; Your description of the problem seemed to mirror very closely the issue i had when i installed my Q750D and btw, i had to connect the HD cable box to my Integra DHC-80.2 using component connection instead of HDMI because the Integra would not agree on a HDMI "handshake". There are several posts on the threads for "Integra DHC-80.2 and DHC-80.3" indicating that Onkyo Integra models are notorious for being "HDMI finicky"...

When I spoke to Runco they said only the dealer could update the firmware. It requires special software and a connection to the RS-232 port and they do not post their firmware on their website. I wonder if I had the software would it connect to Runco and get the firmware without requiring a dealer login. As far as the 80.3 negotiating, it does not have any problems with negotiating HDMI with the Runco for any format except 1080/24p. One solution I am thinking of if the firmware doesn't fix it is to get a HDMI splitter box and send the HDMI for audio to the 80.3 and the other HDMI from the splitter to the Runco because if I hook the Blu-Ray player directly to the Runco it can negotiate the 1080/24p with the player. It just wont negotiate it with the 80.3. If I do that I would lose the OSD of the 80.3 which I use when deciding on which sound decoding I want for a particular Blu-Ray disc.
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post #21 of 31 Old 01-12-2013, 03:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Also, my FIOS Motorola cable box negotiates fine over HDMI with my 80.3 and the Runco but the FIOS box is not trying to do 1080/24p. I think only a Blu-Ray player can use that format.
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post #22 of 31 Old 01-12-2013, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stu54 View Post

When I spoke to Runco they said only the dealer could update the firmware. It requires special software and a connection to the RS-232 port and they do not post their firmware on their website. I wonder if I had the software would it connect to Runco and get the firmware without requiring a dealer login. As far as the 80.3 negotiating, it does not have any problems with negotiating HDMI with the Runco for any format except 1080/24p. One solution I am thinking of if the firmware doesn't fix it is to get a HDMI splitter box and send the HDMI for audio to the 80.3 and the other HDMI from the splitter to the Runco because if I hook the Blu-Ray player directly to the Runco it can negotiate the 1080/24p with the player. It just wont negotiate it with the 80.3. If I do that I would lose the OSD of the 80.3 which I use when deciding on which sound decoding I want for a particular Blu-Ray disc.

I don't think this is how firmware updates for Runco products work. I have a Planar PD8150, which is the same unit as the Runco LS-5. Planar owns Runco but before they rebranded the PD8150 to the LS-5 they allowed users to update the firmware from home via their PC. All you needed was a USB to RS232 cable, the program from their site to connect to your unit and the appropriate firmware file that you needed to download separately and add to the application manually. The program didn't download the file, like I said you needed to get it separately. I would imagine the update procedure is the same only authorized dealers have access to the software and firmware files.

You can download that application here:

http://apps.planar.com/downloads/hometheater/

It's included with the PD8150 firmware zip file. If you can somehow get ahold of your appropriate firmware you can update it yourself. Maybe a local dealer can email it to you?

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post #23 of 31 Old 01-12-2013, 04:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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I don't think this is how firmware updates for Runco products work. I have a Planar PD8150, which is the same unit as the Runco LS-5. Planar owns Runco but before they rebranded the PD8150 to the LS-5 they allowed users to update the firmware from home via their PC. All you needed was a USB to RS232 cable, the program from their site to connect to your unit and the appropriate firmware file that you needed to download separately and add to the application manually. The program didn't download the file, like I said you needed to get it separately. I would imagine the update procedure is the same only authorized dealers have access to the software and firmware files.

You can download that application here:

http://apps.planar.com/downloads/hometheater/

It's included with the PD8150 firmware zip file. If you can somehow get ahold of your appropriate firmware you can update it yourself. Maybe a local dealer can email it to you?

Thanks for the software link. Since Runco is very protective of their dealers and the dealers are out to make money, I don't think I can get the firmware sent to me. Best I can hope for is to bring the processor into the dealer and hope he doesn't charge me to upgrade the firmware. It is really aggravating when a company won't support their products to the end user.
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post #24 of 31 Old 01-12-2013, 04:54 PM
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To be honest, that's how most of these projector manufacturers are. Very few allow their users to update firmware from home. I think it has to do with warranties. If you think about it, if one were to unplug the RS232 cable while updating it could do some serious damage to the projector which they, the company, would need to spend money on to fix (as long as it's still under warranty). I assume they figure it will cost them less in the long run by having people send units in to be updated by professionals. It's unfortunate and I think that most people who own projectors are responsible enough to do it correctly. Especially with some of these enthusiast priced units.

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post #25 of 31 Old 01-12-2013, 05:05 PM
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As a side note, I actually have my NuVision ProVu P2 sent into Vivitek. The P2 is basically a rebranded and tweaked version of the Vivitek H9080FD and coincidentally the Runco Q750i is basically the same unit as this Vivitek also, just tweaked by Runco. I won the bid from a seller on eBay for the ridiculously low price of $731. It was an ex-demo unit he was getting rid of becuase NuVision went out of business last year. As an act of good faith, the dealer sent the unit in to get checked to make sure there was nothing wrong with it. They must have "updateded" the unit with an incorrect firmware when it was at the factory because the software is all screwed up. Most of the controls don't change anything in the menus, things are missing, ect. So after talking to Vivitek support they concluded that it was definitely a firmware/software issue and it would need to be updated to the proper one. But, seeing how NuVision is no longer in business sending it in wouldn't be covered under the warranty that was supposed to be for another year and half. The technician I spoke with said it costs roughly ~$100 to update the firmware ($80 base charge for labor and $20 for the firmware update) but it already cost me $110 for insured shipping there and it's going to cost me atleast that to ship it back. So all in all it's going to cost me ~$450 to just update the damn firmware. I shouldn't complain though, this projector was the deal of the decade as far as I'm concerned. tongue.gif

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post #26 of 31 Old 01-14-2013, 08:08 PM
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I have the SOFTWARE everyone NEEDS for what we are talking about. I updated mine once.... easy as pie... took about 5 minutes total.

I will ask a friend of mine to send me the latest firmware for the i and D models(PJ and DHD) and see if he is still willing. once I have them if I have received an email or PM I will send them to everyone.

Runco does not post their software and their projectors are not User upgradeable. You will need a computer running windows; I use a windows 7 laptop. You will also need a Serial cable. I bought the cheap one from Radio Shack with a driver disc and it works for my Runco Q-750i and my Anthem AVM50v... which is known to be picky about convertors. Those are the only two items besides the firmware you need.

Just make sure to write down or take pictures, much easier, of your settings, however, if the LED driver version has changed it is possible that the LEDs could respond differently and the same settings will not be a perfect picture any more.

David

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post #27 of 31 Old 01-15-2013, 11:05 AM
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Hello Stu54 - Michael from Runco here, so sorry for the delayed response. We currently have the DTR80.3 (not the DHC although I would suspect their hardware is virtually the same) in house sent to us from Integra, initial testing shows that it may be outputting negative voltage pulses on the DDC lines, which would normally cause the DHD3’s I2C bus to lockup rendering the unit unresponsive until AC power cycling, we first noticed this about a year after the DHD 3 was produced on the Integra DTR80.3, there is no way for us to fix this as the I2C MUX chip in the DHD does not support undershoot protection which would normally ignore the negative voltage, this was added to the DHD IV, however I should point out that this is not a failure of the DHD 3 as an AVR should not be sending out negative pulses on the DDC line. My suggestion would be to either use a different AVR or to contact your dealer about an upgrade to the DHD IV whose I2C MUX does support undershoot protection. We do allow trade-in credit for the DHD III, hope this helps
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post #28 of 31 Old 01-15-2013, 03:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heymike_49 View Post

Hello Stu54 - Michael from Runco here, so sorry for the delayed response. We currently have the DTR80.3 (not the DHC although I would suspect their hardware is virtually the same) in house sent to us from Integra, initial testing shows that it may be outputting negative voltage pulses on the DDC lines, which would normally cause the DHD3’s I2C bus to lockup rendering the unit unresponsive until AC power cycling, we first noticed this about a year after the DHD 3 was produced on the Integra DTR80.3, there is no way for us to fix this as the I2C MUX chip in the DHD does not support undershoot protection which would normally ignore the negative voltage, this was added to the DHD IV, however I should point out that this is not a failure of the DHD 3 as an AVR should not be sending out negative pulses on the DDC line. My suggestion would be to either use a different AVR or to contact your dealer about an upgrade to the DHD IV whose I2C MUX does support undershoot protection. We do allow trade-in credit for the DHD III, hope this helps

i have had my DHD3 for less than a year. Now you are saying I have to change out the processor to get this problem fixed? I wonder why my video monitor has no problem with the 24p from the integra but the DHD3 can't handle it. So the firmware upgrade won't help and I will have to pay hundreds of dollars to get a new processor?

Also, the DHD3 does not lock up with the 24p signal. The front display just keeps cycling through various resolutions and No Signal messages and the Integra won't put out any sound because of that.
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post #29 of 31 Old 01-15-2013, 05:45 PM
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Thanks David (rovingtravler) for offering to try getting the latest firmware updates for both the Runco Q-750D and Q-750i; Much appreciated and i'll keep checking this thread for any more info.
Hi Michael (heymike_49); Welcome to AVS Forum - especially as a " rep~spokesperson~ear" from Runco. Perhaps you could answer a "mystery" that no one has been able to uncover for me : which TI DMD chip is used for both of these projectors ? I imagine it would be the top of the line "Dark Chip 4", 0.95 inch diagonal sized but apparently Runco decided to name the same chip "DarkOnyx" ? And which video processing chip is used, as well.
It is my understanding that the Vivitek clone uses the Gennum VXP 9450, so chances are the same applies to the Q-750i, but does the DHD3 external controller box for the Q-750D also use the same chip ? Why doesn't Runco publish such relevant information in this day and age about its projectors ?
On a side note, i never received an owner's manual with my Q-750D projector from the dealer as it apparently got lost during packaging/shipping and i wonder if i could get one from Runco; I downloaded the online copy to my PC and i could print the individual pages, but i feel that with a projector of such "pedigree" a manual consisting of stapled printed pages is inappropriate and even "tacky"... Thanks !
Marcos
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post #30 of 31 Old 01-17-2013, 09:07 PM
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The video chip is the 10bit version of the Gennum series. I believe it is the 9450. I thought the vivtek had a DC3 in it, but maybe not or hopefully Runco upgraded it to the DC4. I have been told by Runco that the D version of the projector has the same video chip just an easy package over all to help with installations.

I will let everyone if I get anywhere with task.

David

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