Real 4K/3D projector with HDMI 1.4b or DisplayPort input? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 23 Old 01-28-2013, 06:54 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm planning out the basic tech specs for a custom installation theater project, meant for a relatively small space. Target size is a screen size of greater than 84 inches (ie the largest 4K-3D TV) and throw is customizable but probably under 20 feet is ideal. The following are non negotiable MUST-HAVE features:
* 4k projection with 3D, single unit
* HDMI 1.4b or DisplayPort 4K input, this will be driven by a PC running custom 3D render software. HD-SDI is probably not acceptable but we'll see.
* At least 24fps input (HDMI 1.4b spec) but higher would actually be better if possible.
* Ceiling mountable, this implies a reasonable weight
And price is flexible but under $40k would be ideal. Our fall-back is one of the newly announced 84 inch TVs, but a projector would be preferred. The consumer companies don't seem to manufacture anything acceptable yet; I imagine that'll change by this time in 2014 but my project isn't that far out. Christie/Barco/etc don't seem to publish prices and the candidates I've found seem very heavy and oriented towards full blown movie theaters. I would greatly appreciate any suggestions or guidance.
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post #2 of 23 Old 01-28-2013, 06:58 PM
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Did you see the 4k Sony, VPL-VW1000ES?
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post #3 of 23 Old 01-28-2013, 07:11 PM
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The only answer at present is the Sony VPL-vw1000ES. MSRP $25,000.
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post #4 of 23 Old 01-28-2013, 07:13 PM
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There is no such projector on the consumer side of things. The only option you currently have is the Sony VPL-VW1000ES. It is a native 4K, not UltraHD, LCOS projector with HDMI 1.4a which can do native 4K and 3D up to 24fps. Sony has promised anyone buying this projector an upgrade path to make sure it will be fully compatible with whatever the new format specifications are. So don't worry about which HDMI is in this now (even though it can do what you ask for anyways) as it can be upgraded later. In the current issue of widescreenreview Joe Kane has an interesting article talking about 2160p. He states that for anyone to see the full benefit of 2160p the screen should no smaller that 10 feet wide. That is, anything smaller at normal seating distances will have the potential for the user not to receive all the benefit from that resolution. He also states that a 6 foot wide screen and larger is optimal for 1080p at normal seating distances. Pairing this Sony with the right screen can yield you an amazing picture bright enough while still getting you to that 10 feet + mark.

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post #5 of 23 Old 01-28-2013, 07:24 PM
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The Sony will take 24 fps in at 4K and will display at either 4K with a native aspect of 17/9 (4096 x 2160) or with a aspect of 16 x 9 (3840 x 2160). At 4HD, it in essence leaves the extra horizontal pixels on the panel blank divided equally on both sides. That is the way most of us 1000ES owners operate it. Taking a 1080p 24 fps source framewith a native aspect of 16/9 in and using the full panel width, will cause a small amount of the top and bottom of the frame to be cut off. For input aspects above 1.89 (17/9) nothing will be lost but there will be black bars at the top and bottom.

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post #6 of 23 Old 01-28-2013, 07:38 PM
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There is a lot of confusion re the differences between HDMI 1.4a and 1.4b. I am no expert here but to certify as 1.4b requires additional testing beyongd that required for 1.4a certification. i have heard that 1.4b also requires a capacity of 120hz but i am not sure 1.4a is less. Based on the thread originators requirements, I suspect that a 1.4a rating of the 1000ES would satisfy all requirements.

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post #7 of 23 Old 01-29-2013, 08:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

There is no such projector on the consumer side of things. The only option you currently have is the Sony VPL-VW1000ES. It is a native 4K, not UltraHD, LCOS projector with HDMI 1.4a which can do native 4K and 3D up to 24fps. Sony has promised anyone buying this projector an upgrade path to make sure it will be fully compatible with whatever the new format specifications are. So don't worry about which HDMI is in this now (even though it can do what you ask for anyways) as it can be upgraded later.
Thanks guys. I had looked at the Sony previously and it would be perfect, but looking at the specs:
http://store.sony.com/p/VPL-VW1000ES/en/p/VPLVW1000ES#specifications
The input is clearly marked as HDMI 1.4a and the max resolution is 1080p/60. I would love to hear that this is out of date and the projector can be driven from a 4K source, but I need confirmation of that before dropping $25k because that is a non-negotiable spec for us."Later" isn't good enough, either. I know the consumer market doesn't exactly have 4K sources lying around, but we DO.
Quote:
In the current issue of widescreenreview Joe Kane has an interesting article talking about 2160p. He states that for anyone to see the full benefit of 2160p the screen should no smaller that 10 feet wide. That is, anything smaller at normal seating distances will have the potential for the user not to receive all the benefit from that resolution. He also states that a 6 foot wide screen and larger is optimal for 1080p at normal seating distances. Pairing this Sony with the right screen can yield you an amazing picture bright enough while still getting you to that 10 feet + mark.
I appreciate the tip but respectfully disagree with these numbers, at least in the case of real-time 3D graphics rendering, which creates much sharper images and has to deal with problems like aliasing as a result. Our original spec also called for a TV, in which case 1080p is actually two 540p images in stereo mode, which makes 4k much more pressing. Does the projector suffer the loss of vertical resolution like an LCD does?
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post #8 of 23 Old 01-29-2013, 08:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

There is a lot of confusion re the differences between HDMI 1.4a and 1.4b. I am no expert here but to certify as 1.4b requires additional testing beyongd that required for 1.4a certification. i have heard that 1.4b also requires a capacity of 120hz but i am not sure 1.4a is less. Based on the thread originators requirements, I suspect that a 1.4a rating of the 1000ES would satisfy all requirements.

HDMI 1.4b simply adds the certification tests required. From a functional and performance point of viiew HDMI 1.4a and 1.4b are the same. The HDMI 1.4a/1.4b standard supports 4K but is limited to 24Hz refresh rate. The next generation of the HDMI standard has been in development for about 13 months and is taking a little longer than anticipated to be finalized. The new version of HDMI will include support for 4K at least up to 60Hz refresh rates (according to a statement from the HDMI Licensing organization). Also in that same press conference (CES 2012) it was said there would be support for increased color depth. This new version (perhaps called version 2.0) is now slated to be finalized in the first half of 2013 (latest info from HDMI Licensing organization at CES 2013). I would bet that the next generation Sony 4K UHD projector will have the new version of HDMI as will any 4K UHD projectors introduced at the CEDIA Expo 2013 (Sept. 2013) or CES 2014 (Jan. 2014). Also future UHD media players (i.e., beyond the Redray and Sony players already announced) and upcoming Blu-ray UHD players will use the new version of HDMI. While Sony has indicated they will offer an upgrade to the VW1000es to support the new standards for 4K (actually consumer UHD) video sources (Mark - correct me if this is not the proper context for what they have said), it's not really clear what the basic limitations of the projector will be to support such thing as higher refresh rates for 4K video. So for me the question would be is when Sony offers an upgrade to the existing VW1000 owners, will it add support such things as a 48Hz and 60Hz refresh rates and increased color depth (e.g., 12-bit) at 4K and UHD resolutions. Also will the upgrade add support for 3D at 4K and UHD resolutions (assuming the next generation HDMI standard and future UHD sources supports this)?

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post #9 of 23 Old 01-29-2013, 08:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Well, on the phone Sony emphatically assures me that the VW1000ES can accept 4K over HDMI. Should I believe them? This seems to suggest a PC driven 4K input will work fine:
http://www.engadget.com/2012/05/17/sony-vpl-vw1000es-projector-native-4k/
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post #10 of 23 Old 01-29-2013, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Promit View Post

Well, on the phone Sony emphatically assures me that the VW1000ES can accept 4K over HDMI. Should I believe them? This seems to suggest a PC driven 4K input will work fine:
http://www.engadget.com/2012/05/17/sony-vpl-vw1000es-projector-native-4k/

Several of us have seen the VW1000es accepting 4K video from the Sony 4K player (e.g., at CEDIA Expo or CES). As is noted in my earlier post, the HDMI 1.4a and 1.4b standards include support for 4K video, but is limited to a 24 Hz refresh rate.

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post #11 of 23 Old 01-29-2013, 09:11 AM
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Yes, believe them. HDMI 1.4a has the capability for 4K up to 24 fps. Check out the 1000ES thread here on the forums and you can confirm with tons of owners here that 4K works perfectly fine. Also, like I said, it can be upgradable as the spec changes to higher frame rates, bit depths, ect.

Regarding your comments about Joe Kane. I don't know if you're aware of his credentials, but he's is something of a video guru. He's pioneered many projects in the video world. Many companies go to him for advice regarding anything video. He is THE videophile of videophiles. I trust his logic. The article explains it in better detail. I highly suggest reading it before scoffing it off as inaccurate.The only point I was trying to make was to make sure sure your screen is at least 10 feet wide (considering a normal seating distance obviously the size here can vary if you're sitting closer) otherwise you risk not benefiting from that resolution.

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post #12 of 23 Old 01-29-2013, 09:21 AM
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It won't accept other than by HDMI any input higher than 1920 x 1080 dots. What I am saying is that according to the Sony spec for the computer feed input, the max resolution is 1920 x 1080. However, going in by HDMI, 4096 x 2160 at 24 fps and if I remember correctly 30 is possible. Am I reading the computer input spec wrong?

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post #13 of 23 Old 01-29-2013, 09:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

It won't accept other than by HDMI any input higher than 1920 x 1080 dots. What I am saying is that according to the Sony spec for the computer feed input, the max resolution is 1920 x 1080. However, going in by HDMI, 4096 x 2160 at 24 fps and if I remember correctly 30 is possible. Am I reading the computer input spec wrong?
That does seem to be the case. The internal drive of the projector is 120hz, 60 to each eye, and I'm guessing it takes 30 to each eye as input... the important point is that it DOES support 4K 3D input, and that's what I needed.

Thanks all.
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post #14 of 23 Old 01-30-2013, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Promit View Post

That does seem to be the case. The internal drive of the projector is 120hz, 60 to each eye, and I'm guessing it takes 30 to each eye as input... the important point is that it DOES support 4K 3D input, and that's what I needed.

Thanks all.

As I recall the VW1000 takes 2D at up to 4K resolution, but 3D input it is limited to 1080p (this is also a limitation of the HDMI 1.4b standard). Mark can you confirm.

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post #15 of 23 Old 01-30-2013, 07:56 PM
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I can find no information on this in the specifications or in the manual. I will need to contect Sony. After the end of next week, this will be difficult because Sony has laid off my contect engineer, Rob McDonough, and the Sony ES product managers, Amy Escobar, last day is also next friday. i will miss both very much and I am very concerned about Sony's future in consumer electronics market we deal with. Sony has sold its headquarters in NY and has its Tokayo headquarters up for sale. It lost over a billion dollars last year and has to sell these assets off and drastically has to cut payroll. i have suspicions that the ES line may be dropped but expect the ES projectors to continue but perhaps with no ES designation. I am lust guessing as to this.

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post #16 of 23 Old 01-31-2013, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

I can find no information on this in the specifications or in the manual. I will need to contect Sony. After the end of next week, this will be difficult because Sony has laid off my contect engineer, Rob McDonough, and the Sony ES product managers, Amy Escobar, last day is also next friday. i will miss both very much and I am very concerned about Sony's future in consumer electronics market we deal with. Sony has sold its headquarters in NY and has its Tokayo headquarters up for sale. It lost over a billion dollars last year and has to sell these assets off and drastically has to cut payroll. i have suspicions that the ES line may be dropped but expect the ES projectors to continue but perhaps with no ES designation. I am lust guessing as to this.

Mark -

I took a quick look thru my copy of the HDMI 1.4a spec for the 3D formats that are included in that standard and I see none for 4K video. I think that is one of the things being worked for the next generation HDMI spec. (i.e., to be called ver. 2.0 or perhaps 1.5) due out by mid-2013.

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post #17 of 23 Old 01-31-2013, 03:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Promit View Post

That does seem to be the case. The internal drive of the projector is 120hz, 60 to each eye, and I'm guessing it takes 30 to each eye as input... the important point is that it DOES support 4K 3D input, and that's what I needed.

Thanks all.



NO, Promit


Here at page 77 in the manual :


The following items are available for
HDMI input only.

1080/60p, 1080/50p, 1080/24p,
3840 × 2160/24p, 3840 × 2160/25p,
3840 × 2160/30p, 4096 × 2160/24p


Acceptable computer signals
fH: 19 kHz to 72 kHz
fV: 48 Hz to 92 Hz
Maximum resolution 1,920 × 1,080
(HDMI input only)
For details, see “Preset Signals”

And on page 79/80 you can see that it can take the following 3D signals in:

720/60p
(Frame packing)

720/50p
(Frame packing)

1080/24p
(Frame packing)


And in 2D it can take :

3840 × 2160/24p

3840 × 2160/25p

3840 × 2160/30p

4096 × 2160/24p

So conclusion ( for now ) no native 4K 3D input possible ( but it can upscale it to 4K 3D )

but in 2D it can take native UHD and 4K in via HDMI ( but NOT 48P in either 2D or 3D - but the "hobbit" isnt a very good movie anyway IMO biggrin.gif )


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post #18 of 23 Old 01-31-2013, 05:35 PM
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I agree. regardless of what's inside, the hdMI input won't handle it. it is possible that when a new HDMI standard is established, and input chips for that standard become available, the projector internals will handle it.

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post #19 of 23 Old 02-08-2013, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

HDMI 1.4b simply adds the certification tests required. From a functional and performance point of viiew HDMI 1.4a and 1.4b are the same. The HDMI 1.4a/1.4b standard supports 4K but is limited to 24Hz refresh rate. The next generation of the HDMI standard has been in development for about 13 months and is taking a little longer than anticipated to be finalized. The new version of HDMI will include support for 4K at least up to 60Hz refresh rates (according to a statement from the HDMI Licensing organization). Also in that same press conference (CES 2012) it was said there would be support for increased color depth. This new version (perhaps called version 2.0) is now slated to be finalized in the first half of 2013 (latest info from HDMI Licensing organization at CES 2013). I would bet that the next generation Sony 4K UHD projector will have the new version of HDMI as will any 4K UHD projectors introduced at the CEDIA Expo 2013 (Sept. 2013) or CES 2014 (Jan. 2014). Also future UHD media players (i.e., beyond the Redray and Sony players already announced) and upcoming Blu-ray UHD players will use the new version of HDMI. While Sony has indicated they will offer an upgrade to the VW1000es to support the new standards for 4K (actually consumer UHD) video sources (Mark - correct me if this is not the proper context for what they have said), it's not really clear what the basic limitations of the projector will be to support such thing as higher refresh rates for 4K video. So for me the question would be is when Sony offers an upgrade to the existing VW1000 owners, will it add support such things as a 48Hz and 60Hz refresh rates and increased color depth (e.g., 12-bit) at 4K and UHD resolutions. Also will the upgrade add support for 3D at 4K and UHD resolutions (assuming the next generation HDMI standard and future UHD sources supports this)?

So am I to assume Ron that the current and impending 4K displays from Sony (84", 65" & 55") have questionable support for 4K @60p since that will require the new HDMI standard? If that's the case, it's hard to believe that a just-released 4K display may not be able to support 4K @60p. To me that's a non-starter in terms of seriously considering these displays. confused.gif
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post #20 of 23 Old 02-08-2013, 01:13 PM
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So am I to assume Ron that the current and impending 4K displays from Sony (84", 65" & 55") have questionable support for 4K @60p since that will require the new HDMI standard? If that's the case, it's hard to believe that a just-released 4K display may not be able to support 4K @60p. To me that's a non-starter in terms of seriously considering these displays. confused.gif

Not really when you take into consideration there is no 4K 60fps material out there. I'm sure eventually there will be and I'm sure by that time the new HDMI spec will be created.

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post #21 of 23 Old 02-08-2013, 01:57 PM
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So am I to assume Ron that the current and impending 4K displays from Sony (84", 65" & 55") have questionable support for 4K @60p since that will require the new HDMI standard? If that's the case, it's hard to believe that a just-released 4K display may not be able to support 4K @60p. To me that's a non-starter in terms of seriously considering these displays. confused.gif

I checked the spec. page in the owner's manual for Sony new 84" 4K LCD/LED TV available HERE. For the 4K input (via HDMI) it says:

3840 × 2160p (24, 25, 30 Hz)

4096 × 2160p (24 Hz)

So 30 Hz is the max. 4K input refresh rate in Ultra HD (i.e., 1.78 aspect ratio) format or just 24 Hz in the cinema 4K format (i.e., 1.9:1 aspect ratio).

This seems to be similar to the situation from around 2005 when many of the HDTVs equipped with 1080p displays could only accept 1080i via their inputs (via component video or DVI and even some with an early generation of HDMI).

Do I recall correct that you were with CBS back in the days of our early exchanges here on AVS Forum when HD was first introduced (around 2000-2001)?

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post #22 of 23 Old 02-11-2013, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

I checked the spec. page in the owner's manual for Sony new 84" 4K LCD/LED TV available HERE. For the 4K input (via HDMI) it says:

3840 × 2160p (24, 25, 30 Hz)

4096 × 2160p (24 Hz)

So 30 Hz is the max. 4K input refresh rate in Ultra HD (i.e., 1.78 aspect ratio) format or just 24 Hz in the cinema 4K format (i.e., 1.9:1 aspect ratio).

This seems to be similar to the situation from around 2005 when many of the HDTVs equipped with 1080p displays could only accept 1080i via their inputs (via component video or DVI and even some with an early generation of HDMI).

Do I recall correct that you were with CBS back in the days of our early exchanges here on AVS Forum when HD was first introduced (around 2000-2001)?

Thanks Ron, that's a bit disconcerting. Although Seegs108 is correct that there is currently no 4K 60p material, there may well be once broadcasters begin to get on the bandwagon with live 4K broadcasts.

Ron, actually I know why you were thinking I was connected with CBS in the early HD days. I was in communication with Bob Ross who was the Chief Engineer at CBS at that time. Back then I had what was probably the first HD RPTV, the 64" Zenith. Since CBS had just begun HD broadcasts, they had quite a number of teething issues. One of them was achieving 5.1 & stereo compatibility with some of the displays that were being released. My Zenith was one of them. Several times Bob and I were on the phone as engineering was throwing switches at CBS to try to get a stereo signal in to my Zenith. They eventually found the right combination.

Those were fun times! smile.gif
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post #23 of 23 Old 02-12-2013, 09:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Promit View Post

the important point is that it DOES support 4K 3D input, and that's what I needed.
As far as I know, there is no projector on the market that supports both 4K and 3D at the same time.
Hdmi 1.4 doesn't have the bandwidth for 4K 3D even at it's maximum spec (I haven't found any mention of increased bandwidth with hdmi 1.4b, just some standardisation for 4K 2D content).
In order to do 4K 3D, the only capable single connection currently available is DisplayPort 1.2. http://www.amd.com/us/Documents/50279_AMD_FirePro_DisplayPort_1-2_WP.pdf

At present, if you want to do 4K in 3D, the only solution I can think of is a dual-projector setup, with a pair of 4K 2D projectors.
This system can be driven by an AMD Radeon or AMD Firepro graphics card and set your desktop as if your projectors were a side-by-side single large surface using the AMD Eyefinity feature (8Kx2K desktop, with the left half of the desktop being the left eye and the right half being the right eye), and finally set your software to output accordingly as side by side full-resolution. I currently do it with 1080p projectors and it works really well (3840x1080 desktop), I do not know anyone who tested that technique with 4K projectors but the AMD documentation seems to indicate that the current Radeon cards should be able to manage such a large screen surface (up to 16K x 16K) according to their website.
An important note : this might not bother you if you only run your custom software but there are currently no BluRay 3D capable software that supports dual-projectors, you will have to re-encode these movies into a more manageable format (typically a side by side or over/under at custom full resolution) in order to watch BluRay 3D movies.

Dual projectors are passive systems, there are two types of filters/glasses you can use :
-polarised : requires a "silverscreen", modern non-depolarising 3D screens are much better than the horror stories we are told about old silverscreens but they are still high-gain with all the drawbacks they incur, polarised filters are able to save a huge amount of light if the projector output is already polarised (LCD or LCOS).
-narrow band colour (like Dolby3D) : at the moment, Dolby only sells to theatres, Omega optical does sell to consumers via a reseller on ebay : able to use any screen, but the colour accuracy varies greatly depending on the type of lamp used (Xenon lamp >> consumer UHP lamp) and the type of colour filters used to create thecolour primaries inside the projector (DLP multi-segment colour wheel >> LCD 3-way colour splitting), If you use the wrong projector the colour accuracy will be really bad (3LCD with UHP lamp like my projectors)

We talk about these systems right next door at the Ultimate 3D projector thread http://www.avsforum.com/t/1280393/the-ultimate-3d-projection-system-a-practical-discussion-thread
Omega optical also has a thread at the 3D Tech talk sub-forum where an Omega rep answers questions (Motorman45) http://www.avsforum.com/t/1407101/official-omega-3d-passive-projection-system-thread

Passive 3D, forever !
My Full-HD dual-projector passive polarised 3D setup. (really out of date ! I need to update it some day...)

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