OPTOMA HD91 FULL LED DLP full hd 2D 3D Ready end 2013 - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 1227 Old 12-29-2013, 11:23 AM
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Yes, poor contrast numbers indeed. That's probably why they are re designing the light path on it.
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post #632 of 1227 Old 12-29-2013, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mishari84 View Post

Its chinese. here are the numbers:

Maximum brightness (lumens)
964
ANSI optimize brightness (lumens)
596
ANSI contrast
130:1
FOFO contrast
1920:1
Color saturation
93.5%
Luminance unevenness center (closer to 1, the better)
1.18
Luminance unevenness corner (the closer to 1 the better)
1.52
Color uniformity Center (the smaller the better)
0.007
Color unevenness corner (the smaller the better)
0.010

Does it say if the FOFO contrast is native or with the DI engaged? ANSI should be far higher because this is a DLP. The low number is most likely caused by a very cheap lens. Its good to see that this is a brighter LED projector. 600 lumens is still only a small step up over the first gen LEDs that were getting around 550 calibrated lumens. These extra 50 won't be a noticeable step up in brightness unfortunately. Though, you do have access to an color incorrect mode that will offer more lumens if needed.
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post #633 of 1227 Old 12-29-2013, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by soupdragon View Post

Yes, poor contrast numbers indeed. That's probably why they are re designing the light path on it.

Are they really? Aren't these already shipping in many countries?
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post #634 of 1227 Old 12-29-2013, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

Are they really? Aren't these already shipping in many countries?

I can't remember where I read that but yes, as far as I'm aware. Not sure what those that have already bought will make of it....
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post #635 of 1227 Old 12-29-2013, 01:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

Does it say if the FOFO contrast is native or with the DI engaged? ANSI should be far higher because this is a DLP. The low number is most likely caused by a very cheap lens. Its good to see that this is a brighter LED projector. 600 lumens is still only a small step up over the first gen LEDs that were getting around 550 calibrated lumens. These extra 50 won't be a noticeable step up in brightness unfortunately. Though, you do have access to an color incorrect mode that will offer more lumens if needed.

I don't think this projector has a DI. Not sure, but I thought it uses dynamic black to enhance contrast, which is I believe is a way to dim the lamp in certain scenes -- maybe I'm out to lunch with this. If the 1920:1 C.R. is native then it would be in keeping with many DLPs. The ANSI contrast of 130:1 is similar to the old CRT projectors and doesn't bode well for overall picture quality when you factor in a relatively low on/off as well. The CRTs had low ANSI, but high on/off and that saved the day. This projector doesn't appear to have either.

Won't this projector be handcuffed when it comes to brightness for 3D? It'll be interesting to see how it handles 3D with a 100"+ screen, even a HP one.
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post #636 of 1227 Old 12-29-2013, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

I don't think this projector has a DI. Not sure, but I thought it uses dynamic black to enhance contrast, which is I believe is a way to dim the lamp in certain scenes -- maybe I'm out to lunch with this. If the 1920:1 C.R. is native then it would be in keeping with many DLPs. The ANSI contrast of 130:1 is similar to the old CRT projectors and doesn't bode well for overall picture quality when you factor in a relatively low on/off as well. The CRTs had low ANSI, but high on/off and that saved the day. This projector doesn't appear to have either.

Won't this projector be handcuffed when it comes to brightness for 3D? It'll be interesting to see how it handles 3D with a 100"+ screen, even a HP one.

It has a dynamic black feature that modulates the LEDs by dimming them in conjunction with dynamic gamma. It works basically the same as a DI, minus the physical device.
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post #637 of 1227 Old 12-29-2013, 11:58 PM
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Originally Posted by soupdragon View Post

I can't remember where I read that but yes, as far as I'm aware. Not sure what those that have already bought will make of it....

Hi,

Perhaps at Taiwan or Japan, but currently in Europe, HD91 won't be available before the end of March 2014 or the beginning of April 2014.
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post #638 of 1227 Old 01-07-2014, 02:50 AM
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post #639 of 1227 Old 01-07-2014, 03:49 AM
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I may be wrong, and I stand to be corrected. But given Wolf Cinema's reputation, I doubt they even touch the HD91 to clone if it was as bad as some of the links have suggested.

This in itself appears, on the face of it, to be positive news.

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post #640 of 1227 Old 01-07-2014, 04:09 AM
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How much do you think the Wolf Cinema SDC 25 will cost?

Do you think my Acer K750 would be worth it to upgrade to the Optoma HD91 - would there be any noticeable improvment?
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post #641 of 1227 Old 01-07-2014, 06:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pecker View Post

I may be wrong, and I stand to be corrected. But given Wolf Cinema's reputation, I doubt they even touch the HD91 to clone if it was as bad as some of the links have suggested.

This in itself appears, on the face of it, to be positive news.

Steve W

 

Well, Wolf Cinema has it up on their site now with availability early Q1 2014.  It's called the SCD-25 and comes packaged with the Wolf Cinema ProScaler MK V video processor.

 

The Wolf Cinema ProScaler MK V video processor is a re-badged Lumagen Radiance 2022.  The Lumagen Radiance 2022 has an MSRP of $3295.  I would guess the MSRP price of this package is going to come in between $15K - $20K.

 

Here's the link to Wolf Cinema and the SCD-25: http://www.wolfcinema.com/pdf/SDC-25_Product_Bulletin_11-13.pdf

 

Wolf Cinema doesn't screw around so I would guess this is going to be a very good product in its class.

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post #642 of 1227 Old 01-07-2014, 09:31 AM
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You say that but the product is only as good as the performance of the projector. I'm betting this rebadged model has been in the works for quite some time now. Long before they knew how the final product was going to perform. If this is truly just a rebadged unit I think Wolf will have a hard time selling these.
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post #643 of 1227 Old 01-07-2014, 02:10 PM
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As noted in this review:
http://www.fwdmagazine.be/fwd/152795/preview-optoma-hd91/
Quote:
Conclusie
De Optoma HD91 is een verdienstelijke poging om LED naar projectoren te brengen. De theoretische voordelen zijn groot, maar in deze uitvoering haalt Optoma nog niet het onderste uit de kan. Een betere kalibratie uit de doos is een vereiste in deze prijsklasse, maar vooral het gedrag van de dynamische LEDs moet beter. In deze klasse verwachten we bovendien een betere zwartwaarde.

Optoma liet ons weten dat een recente firmware-update een deel van de hier beschreven tekortkomingen aanpakt. We verwachten de HD91 terug na het nieuwe jaar voor een verdere test.

Or translated: He said the calibration out of the box should be improved in this price range but above all the behavior of the dynamic LEDSs has to be improved. He exprected better blacks in this price range. Then he notes that he got a message from Optoma stating that Optoma made a recent firmware update which addresses the issues mentioned in his review. His review model had an older firmware.

So the wait is on for a review of thing with the latest firmware to see if Optoma fixed the issues as they claim. Hopefully reviewers can post the firmware revision they tested on.
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post #644 of 1227 Old 01-07-2014, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

You say that but the product is only as good as the performance of the projector. I'm betting this rebadged model has been in the works for quite some time now. Long before they knew how the final product was going to perform. If this is truly just a rebadged unit I think Wolf will have a hard time selling these.

 

Not sure I really understand what you're saying.  I doubt it is a simple or cosmetic rebadge.

 

Wolf is a boutique company much like Display Development in that they don't really build projectors.  They take various existing platforms/chassis and tweak and modify to improve the performance of the platform.  So in that regard, yes, I would expect this incarnation has been given some thought over some time.  Wolf has been successful in what they do, so as I said, I would guess that they have been able to get something more out of the OEM chassis.

 

Wolf's DCL-2000DC LED/DLP was built on the Chil lin liquid cooled chassis, same as the VANGO and SIM2 LED/DLP units, so it's not like they haven't had experience with the Luminus PT-120 projection chipset.  Based on the information on their tear sheet, they maybe using the chassis, light engine, and lens only with the scaling, CMS, etc. handled by the outboard unit.  I would think this alone would make a substantial difference over what Optoma is offering.

 

Anyhow, it will be interesting to see how it preforms.  The Wolf units I have seen in the past have put an excellent picture on the screen.

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post #645 of 1227 Old 01-07-2014, 03:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b curry View Post

Not sure I really understand what you're saying.  I doubt it is a simple or cosmetic rebadge.

Wolf is a boutiquecompany much like Display Development in that they don't really build projectors.  They take various existing platforms/chassis and tweak and modify to improve the performance of the platform.  So in that regard, yes, I would expect this incarnation has been given some thought over some time.  Wolf has been successful in what they do, so as I said, I would guess that they have been able to get something more out of the OEM chassis.

Wolf's DCL-2000DC LED/DLP was built on the Chil lin liquid cooled chassis, same as the VANGO and SIM2 LED/DLP units, so it's not like they haven't had experience with the Luminus PT-120 projection chipset.  Based on the information on their tear sheet, they maybe using the chassis, light engine, and lens only with the scaling, CMS, etc. handled by the outboard unit.  I would think this alone would make a substantial difference over what Optoma is offering.

Anyhow, it will be interesting to see how it preforms.  The Wolf units I have seen in the past have put an excellent picture on the screen.

I'm saying that even the best video processing/best scaling in the world can't help a bad DI, poor native contrast, poor lens quality, ect. These basic things are pivotal for premium image quality. If the projector itself isn't capable of these things then who cares about an outboard scaler? If this wasn't just a simple rebadge and it was a more complex internal redesign why not design it from the ground up. What would be the point of using the HD91 as a base if they were to do a big internal redesign? From initial reports on the HD91, if this projector is to meet Wolf's typical pedigree, it's going to need some SERIOUS changes/modifications to compete in image quality to most of Wolf's other products. With that said, I would make a large bet that the two projectors are identical internally, with maybe some slight changes like a better power supply for better reliability, most likely a full calibration done at the factory, and more quality control over the parts being put into the product. Wolf Cinema does not have the type of R&D budget other companies/brands have. This is why almost every single projector they've released recently is a rebadged projector, with the only differentiating feature being a different external chassis. Their LED unit and LCoS units were identical to other units out there with software saying "Wolf" instead of the OEM brand. What makes you think this projector is any different?
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post #646 of 1227 Old 01-07-2014, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
 
...This is why almost every single projector they've released recently is a rebadged projector...

... What makes you think this projector is any different?

 

I believe we've said the same thing.

 

It's not almost, it's everyone in their product mix.  Display Development does the same.

 

If there is a difference it  maybe that I believe Wolf has done a very good job in the past.  Because of their achievements to date, I would expect a similar effort and similar improvements.  After all, they're using the same business model and how many ways can you mount the same PT-120's with one DMD device?  I don't know what Wolf's R&D budget is but one or two savvy guys can spec a lens and parts change from an OEM.

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post #647 of 1227 Old 01-07-2014, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by b curry View Post

I believe we've said the same thing.

It's not almost, it's everyone in their product mix.  Display Development does the same.

If there is a difference it  maybe that I believe Wolf has done a very good job in the past.  Because of their achievements to date, I would expect a similar effort and similar improvements.  After all, they're using the same business model and how many ways can you mount the same PT-120's with one DMD device?  I don't know what Wolf's R&D budget is but one or two savvy guys can spec a lens and parts change from an OEM.

But there has to be a lens change that they can spec that fits the projector and I think that is the rub, as far as the lens goes.

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post #648 of 1227 Old 01-07-2014, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by b curry View Post

Not sure I really understand what you're saying.  I doubt it is a simple or cosmetic rebadge.

But without somewhat fundamental changes to the light engine itself you can't fundamentally change the nature of the projector. Just look at all the Delta-based machines based on the Planar 8150 chasis, the Runco LS5, Vivitek 5080 (IIRC), Vivitek 9080, Runco Q750, NuVision P2, etc, etc. They all have the same fundamental performance attributes. Similar contrast, brightness, even with as substantial a change as UHP vs LED, reports are the overall nature of the machines is all the same.
Quote:
Wolf is a boutiquecompany much like Display Development in that they don't really build projectors.  They take various existing platforms/chassis and tweak and modify to improve the performance of the platform.  So in that regard, yes, I would expect this incarnation has been given some thought over some time.  Wolf has been successful in what they do, so as I said, I would guess that they have been able to get something more out of the OEM chassis.

The skeptic in me says these "boutique" companies, which use chassis developed by other OEMs, are successful not because of anything technical they add to the product but by adding their name and support. They succeed in the same way that Bose succeeds, selling to people who would rather buy a name, or maybe more accurately rather put their trust in someone else to figure things out than to do it themselves. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but I wouldn't expect that to mean there's any secret sauce inside.
Quote:
Wolf's DCL-2000DC LED/DLP was built on the Chil lin liquid cooled chassis, same as the VANGO and SIM2 LED/DLP units, so it's not like they haven't had experience with the Luminus PT-120 projection chipset.  Based on the information on their tear sheet, they maybe using the chassis, light engine, and lens only with the scaling, CMS, etc. handled by the outboard unit.  I would think this alone would make a substantial difference over what Optoma is offering.

Yeah, sounds like it will perform like an Optoma paired with a Lumagen, which would be substantially better than the Optoma alone, as one would expect.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #649 of 1227 Old 01-07-2014, 11:28 PM
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Hi

Another surprise, its specifications have just been posted on Projector Central with an availability in January 2014 ? Is that reliable, not sure


http://www.projectorcentral.com/Optoma-HD91.htm
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post #650 of 1227 Old 01-08-2014, 01:54 AM
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Seegs is saying exactly what I was thinking.

You could stick a $15,000 VP on the front of a data projector, it wouldn't turn it into something usable for home cinema.

As I say, I'm quietly optimistic. I have doubts that Wolf would release a projector as bad as the HD91 is claimed to be by some, which suggests it's at least possible that the HD91 is far better than the worst reports. We also have these reports about re-designing the light path, firmware upgrades, and so on. As has been said, we really need to wait for the finished, final product and some proper reviews.

I would point out that early reviews of the HD87 revealed all sorts of flakey problems which Optoma sorted out with a firmware upgrade pretty quickly.

Just one thing I've noted, I think some of the comments have been a tad harsh. You know, some of the reviews on the LED projectors from high end companies, which go for tens of thousands of dollars have said lumens were low and black levels not the best - I wouldn't expect this cheaper model to be any different. Optoma have been called idiots for releasing a £3k projector which doesn't have the best black levels, when others haven't managed perfection on projectors costing many times that.

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post #651 of 1227 Old 01-08-2014, 02:06 AM
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No one said it was bad because it didn't have "the best" contrast/black levels. They were disappointed because, within it's price range, it can't compete and was subjectively deemed sub-par. Also because the DI was far too noticeable for practical everyday use. Today's DLP projectors need to have a working 100% of the time usable DI otherwise they simply cannot compete over a 3LCD or LCoS projector in image quality. I realize that contrast is not the end all be all of image quality but it is probably the most visibly obvious thing a projector either has in it's favor or something that it lacks. Image sharpness, color accuracy, and even brightness are things that can be far more laxed and still be deemed acceptable. So if they're going to fix one thing on the projector it needs to about it's contrast performance. I hope they take a serious look at the light path, DMD choice, and LED modulation techniques (DI algorithms) so that this is a projector that can at least compete within it's price range. If it can hit somewhere between a measured 2000:1 on/off native contrast, 6000-8000:1 on/off dynamic contrast and around 500:1 ANSI contrast with a smooth artifact free DI this will be one hell of a projector. Throw in that beautiful ghost-free 3D performance DLP is known for and this thing will fly off of the shelves. Why can't other companies see that this is what we're looking for? The Sharp XV-Z30000 is the only other projector that meets the requirements I set and unfortunately they tried to sell it at far too high of an MSRP. If Optoma (or someone else) could pull it off for around a $3000 MSRP they would DEFINITELY have a winner on their hands.
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post #652 of 1227 Old 01-08-2014, 02:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

No one said it was bad because it didn't have "the best" contrast/black levels. They were disappointed because, within it's price range, it can't compete and was subjectively deemed sub-par.

Yes, but some of those more expensive projectors had sub-par blac levels for their price range.
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Also because the DI was far too noticeable for practical everyday use. Today's DLP projectors need to have a working 100% of the time usable DI otherwise they simply cannot compete over a 3LCD or LCoS projector in image quality.

Again, I've seen reviews of the more expensive models saying the DI was best left off.
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

I realize that contrast is not the end all be all of image quality but it is probably the most visibly obvious thing a projector either has in it's favor or something that it lacks. Image sharpness, color accuracy, and even brightness are things that can be far more laxed and still be deemed acceptable. So if they're going to fix one thing on the projector it needs to about it's contrast performance. I hope they take a serious look at the light path, DMD choice, and LED modulation techniques (DI algorithms) so that this is a projector that can at least compete within it's price range. If it can hit somewhere between a measured 2000:1 on/off native contrast, 6000-8000:1 on/off dynamic contrast and around 500:1 ANSI contrast with a smooth artifact free DI this will be one hell of a projector. Throw in that beautiful ghost-free 3D performance DLP is known for and this thing will fly off of the shelves. Why can't other companies see that this is what we're looking for? The Sharp XV-Z30000 is the only other projector that meets the requirements I set and unfortunately they tried to sell it at far too high of an MSRP. If Optoma (or someone else) could pull it off for around a $3000 MSRP they would DEFINITELY have a winner on their hands.

I largely agree.

The only thing on a personal level is 3D duties. I've had an Optoma HD33 for a few months now, and 3D is not something I'm blown away with, apart from a handful of examples.

Not everyone will be in the same boat as me, but for the limited 3D use I'll need I'm happy to either keep the HD33 for 3D duties, or use the HD91 in brighter, uncalibrated mode. Initial reports suggested the colour looked more than adequate pre-calibration, and I'm not quite so fussed about getting the Nth degree of picture quality in 3D - mainly because, by definition, 3D isn't particularly great picture quality anyway.

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post #653 of 1227 Old 01-08-2014, 05:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

I realize that contrast is not the end all be all of image quality but it is probably the most visibly obvious thing a projector either has in it's favor or something that it lacks. Image sharpness, color accuracy, and even brightness are things that can be far more laxed and still be deemed acceptable. So if they're going to fix one thing on the projector it needs to about it's contrast performance. I hope they take a serious look at the light path, DMD choice, and LED modulation techniques (DI algorithms)

Here's the thing. Uncalibrated, it seems the colour looked fine - certainly acceptable, and brightness, black levels and contrast were all better.

It makes me think - just for the sake of argument, if Wolf managed to get the algorithms right for the DI, would Optoma have access to this?

You'd have thought at the very least they'd be able to borrow a Wolf from somewhere and hack into it to find out what they'd done. More likely there'd be some sort of agreement. If Wolf want to change parts (lens, power supply), or add a VP, that's up to them, but any software changes they'd have to share with Optoma, wouldn't they?

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post #654 of 1227 Old 01-08-2014, 06:02 AM
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...but any software changes they'd have to share with Optoma, wouldn't they?

No, absolutely not. Software is proprietary IP and can be owned fully by anyone else, without sharing to Optoma, as long as they have permission to use the hardware.
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post #655 of 1227 Old 01-08-2014, 06:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pecker View Post

Here's the thing. Uncalibrated, it seems the colour looked fine - certainly acceptable, and brightness, black levels and contrast were all better.

It makes me think - just for the sake of argument, if Wolf managed to get the algorithms right for the DI, would Optoma have access to this?

You'd have thought at the very least they'd be able to borrow a Wolf from somewhere and hack into it to find out what they'd done. More likely there'd be some sort of agreement. If Wolf want to change parts (lens, power supply), or add a VP, that's up to them, but any software changes they'd have to share with Optoma, wouldn't they?

Steve W

I doubt they'll change the lens. More simple things like a nicer DMD, more efficient PSU, and software tweaks will probably be the most likely.
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post #656 of 1227 Old 01-10-2014, 05:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b curry View Post



Well, Wolf Cinema has it up on their site now with availability early Q1 2014.  It's called the SCD-25 and comes packaged with the Wolf Cinema ProScaler MK V video processor.

The Wolf Cinema ProScaler MK V video processor is a re-badged Lumagen Radiance 2022.  The Lumagen Radiance 2022 has an MSRP of $3295.  I would guess the MSRP price of this package is going to come in between $15K - $20K.

Here's the link to Wolf Cinema and the SCD-25: http://www.wolfcinema.com/pdf/SDC-25_Product_Bulletin_11-13.pdf

Wolf Cinema doesn't screw around so I would guess this is going to be a very good product in its class.

Msrp is $25k
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post #657 of 1227 Old 01-11-2014, 09:22 AM
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Why does any manufacturer need permission to buy another's projector, make changes, and rebadge it?

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post #658 of 1227 Old 01-11-2014, 03:44 PM
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I saw this projector at CES. It looked nice, although the screen size was not large. Maybe 70"s. The rep said available in March or April with a price around $4,000.

Jack
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post #659 of 1227 Old 01-11-2014, 04:56 PM
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I was one of those people holding out for a good but affordable LED projector but it seems I may go back to a conventional TV since the new TV's this year are all Full array LED plus Vizio will have there excellent P series 4k TV's and will probably get the 70" for $2600 or wait a few months and get it $300 cheaper. If SHARP reduces there prices by next year I'll grab me there 79" 4k model instead.
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post #660 of 1227 Old 01-14-2014, 02:10 AM
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http://www.mobilecommerceinsider.com/news/2014/01/13/7627297.htm

"Optoma to launch HD LED home cinema projector at Bristol Show"
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Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

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