OPTOMA HD91 FULL LED DLP full hd 2D 3D Ready end 2013 - Page 6 - AVS Forum
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post #151 of 1227 Old 08-10-2013, 01:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Thebes View Post

Hi,

nice... wink.gif

and now, it's possible to find some informations on Chinese Seller's Website on the HD90 and HD91 :

http://translate.google.fr/translate?hl=fr&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Ftw.page.mall.yahoo.com%2Fitem%2Fp043937589493&sandbox=1

http://tw.page.mall.yahoo.com/item/p043937589493

http://tw.page.mall.yahoo.com/item/p043937589570



- 1 200 lumens
- 500 000 : 1
- lens-shift : V : 60 % and H : 10 %
-....

I was really hoping for a motorized zoom. Is the lens at least center based to be compatible w/ HP screens?

Both the 90 and 91 seem to be the same price. Is that Chinese Yuan?

That's come out at $20k? Didn't somebody say it converted to around $4k?

Edit: I'm guessing it's the New Taiwan Dollar?


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post #152 of 1227 Old 08-10-2013, 01:16 AM
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Hi,

IMHO, as you said, it's not YUANS, but New Taïwan Dollars and for information, a JVC DLA-X35 is sold at Taïwan at 139 000 NT$ :

http://www.jvc.com.tw/ila/index.html
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post #153 of 1227 Old 08-10-2013, 01:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thebes View Post

Hi,

IMHO, as you said, it's not YUANS, but New Taïwan Dollars and for information, a JVC DLA-X35 is sold at Taïwan at 139 000 NT$ :

http://www.jvc.com.tw/ila/index.html

That would make a lot more sense.

Does the Taiwanese sales include a VAT of some sort? If so, that might bring this price down below $4k and maybe street for a bit less.

Just speculating, but that would be awesome!

It would make it a lot more competitive and I might be able to forgive it not having any motorized lens system. biggrin.gif

And thanks for all the great finds on it's info!
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post #154 of 1227 Old 08-10-2013, 01:43 AM
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Originally Posted by biliam1982 View Post

[...]

And thanks for all the great finds on it's info!

redface.gif

You're welcome

I'm also very interested in that projector
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post #155 of 1227 Old 08-10-2013, 02:08 AM - Thread Starter
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According Optoma Representatives, the HD91 woń´t come out in September. There is still hope for October but with doubts.
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post #156 of 1227 Old 08-10-2013, 02:45 AM
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Originally Posted by biliam1982 View Post

That would make a lot more sense.

Does the Taiwanese sales include a VAT of some sort? If so, that might bring this price down below $4k and maybe street for a bit less.

Just speculating, but that would be awesome!

It would make it a lot more competitive and I might be able to forgive it not having any motorized lens system. biggrin.gif

And thanks for all the great finds on it's info!

Hi,

I don't know about VAT, but in one thread posted above, they speak about a price around "26 386 YUANS" and for example, a BenQ W1070 is sold in China at 10 999 YUANS.

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=fr&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhttp://www.pjtime.com/2013/8/152329316121.shtml%26biw%3D1179%26bih%3D575&rurl=translate.google.fr&sl=zh-CN&u=http://product.pjtime.com/projector/benq/32951/&usg=ALkJrhiciaUmau6bNkW9TX5lg4MgkmU1dw

Actually, I suppose the Optoma will be around 3 500 USD (or a little bit under...)
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post #157 of 1227 Old 08-10-2013, 04:05 AM
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I made a thread on the NF32U, I'm wondering how these would compare:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1485388/mitsubisi-nf32u-1080p-laser-led-dlp-3d-3000-lumen-projector
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post #158 of 1227 Old 08-10-2013, 07:44 AM
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Actually, I suppose the Optoma will be around 3 500 USD (or a little bit under...)

imo that's the price it needs to be in order to compete with the other upcoming models in the fall. I don't think they had great success with their more expensive models in the past.

it's nice that Optoma includes the 3 PIN VESA port for the MV3D / Optoma RF glasses. Assuming it's fairly bright in 3D, this should be a very good 3D projector.
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post #159 of 1227 Old 08-10-2013, 10:36 AM
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Any info on how much offset it has? vertical lens shift i 60% - is it shooting straight? I need a large offset in my setup.
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post #160 of 1227 Old 08-10-2013, 11:42 AM
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Any info on how much offset it has? vertical lens shift i 60% - is it shooting straight? I need a large offset in my setup.

You might better suited with a projector that has a large offset built in. Lens shift is almost always going to have a detrimental effect to the sharpness of the image. With a projector that has an offset built in the optical design is created so you can still get a sharp picture. There aren't a lot of options out there but your best bet would be something like an InFocus IN82 or InFocus IN83.
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post #161 of 1227 Old 08-10-2013, 01:28 PM
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Using an infocus8602 already which has a fair amount of offset.

Jvc will work as well but will use most of its lens shift.
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post #162 of 1227 Old 08-10-2013, 01:47 PM
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Yeah, my point here is that while some optical designs allow for you to shift the lens that much it doesn't mean you'll be getting optimal picture quality. This is why I recommended the InFocus IN82/83. Both of them use a lens specifically designed to give optimal picture quality with the offset quite extreme which would be ideal for someone in your situation over another projector that isn't designed that way even though it may have the capability. The further away you move from the "sweet spot" on the lens the softer the image will be.
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post #163 of 1227 Old 08-10-2013, 02:01 PM
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Yup.

I have it at max offset and max lens shift and Focus is dead on entire screen. I am also at max throw distance so using best part of the lens I suppose.

I can lower my mount 6" though.

Great news about the optoma they might just bring good LED performance to more average consumers.
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post #164 of 1227 Old 08-10-2013, 03:18 PM
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So 1000 ANSI lumens..... How truthful is Optoma normally with lumen specs? Sounds like yet another 600 calibrated lumen LED projector to me....
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post #165 of 1227 Old 08-10-2013, 03:25 PM
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hifi: I agree, spec'd vs. measured is a whole another story.....
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post #166 of 1227 Old 08-10-2013, 11:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clausdk View Post

Any info on how much offset it has? vertical lens shift i 60% - is it shooting straight? I need a large offset in my setup.

Hi,

it's difficult to say. With this picture, it seems it's not shooting straight, but maybe the lens-shift is in use... Maybe more informations will be available after the 15 of August...



http://www.audionet.com.tw/a/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=4467
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post #167 of 1227 Old 08-11-2013, 02:02 AM
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thanks for posting, that looks close enough to use with an HP screen.

163704bwvrqywvvvyzhcy0.jpg

I thought the 1st generation Bit Cauldron glasses (Optoma / MV3D) were discontinued. It's a great idea to use the RF transmitter vs. forcing DLP link. The perceived contrast in 3D is guaranteed to be better than the current and upcoming BenQ models. DLP Link should be the last option used if possible.
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post #168 of 1227 Old 08-11-2013, 03:19 AM
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post #169 of 1227 Old 08-11-2013, 06:57 AM
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From press release: "dynamic adjustment using LED technology Dynamic Black, creating high 500,000:1 contrast, and instantly control the LED light output power reached video black level scene change, without mechanical iris auxiliary, true black level reproduction"

Sounds like they are using the LEDs as an iris. biggrin.gif

The more I read about this projector, the more excited I get.

Too bad no 4k.
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post #170 of 1227 Old 08-11-2013, 10:40 AM
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Sounds promising. Since they allude to LED's past brightness issues, maybe they actually have overcome them to an extent to at least give us 1000 real lumens. We shall see.
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post #171 of 1227 Old 08-11-2013, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by conan48 View Post

From press release: "dynamic adjustment using LED technology Dynamic Black, creating high 500,000:1 contrast, and instantly control the LED light output power reached video black level scene change, without mechanical iris auxiliary, true black level reproduction"

Sounds like they are using the LEDs as an iris. biggrin.gif

The more I read about this projector, the more excited I get.

Too bad no 4k.

Let's just hope they implement it properly. Optoma has had a bad track record when it comes to dynamic iris implementations. Art over at projectorreviews.com couldn't recommnend people to buy the Optoma HD8600 (and HD8200) because of how bad the dynamic iris was. Optoma released a new firmware to address that issue but Art said it still wasn't up to the standard he had hoped for. Let's hope they don't continue this trend. Optoma needs to understand that any non LCOS based projector NEEDS a flawless dynamic iris implementation to be taken seriously as a home theater projector these days. There's no way in 2013 someone would buy a projector if the one thing that helps contrast is seriously flawed. Recently everything has been about contrast performance so they can't afford to drop the ball on this front.
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post #172 of 1227 Old 08-11-2013, 11:06 AM
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The problem is in the complex calculus derivative curve programming that is required to program the IRIS's interaction with the gamma and average APL. This type of programming isn't for the faint hearted, and I guess they keep hiring the wrong people with the wrong skillsets to program the IRIS's.

Somehow Sony found the right person or people to do the job. It appears most of the IRIS programmers are just randomly throwing generic algebraic equations at the problem and not realizing there is actually a hard formula to use (hmm). Though the base formula probably needs some interactive tweaks and adjustments on the way, there is no excuse, reason, or rhyme for an IRIS to be as poor as some of these IRIS's are. Maybe they are outsourcing the IRIS programming for $5 hour. They need to hire someone that worked on Paint Program software for years (like Adobe Photoshop) or a game developer that worked on a low-level game engine, or even a pure math programmer could give it a shot. Personally, I would hire all 3 and have them all write IRIS code, then see how comes up with the best, and send them back to the drawing board to do a second version. Too bad they keep hiring rookie programmers to try to program the IRIS's. The other frustrating thing is most IRIS's only have 1-2 modes you can choose from, some maybe 3-4. Personally, every IRIS should expose about 5-6 variables that you can adjust as modifiers to the formula, then people could tweak as they prefer.

I personally would not use a Dynamic IRIS as my decision making mechanism, as they generally don't help the image enough IMO to put any bets on it. To me even more important is a manual aperture to be able to adjust the brightness in steps so that you do not have to fiddle with attaching / detaching ND filters.

The magic of the IRIS is most noticed on plain black nothingness or maybe just above that, that's the downer to it. Many IRIS's don't kick in correctly even on credits.


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post #173 of 1227 Old 08-11-2013, 11:37 AM
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It's not a mechanical Iris that sits in front of the lens. The reason some iris suck is because they are very slow and the pumping is obvious.

I assume they are modulating the LED light output which is instantaneous and that is how they are achieving there dynamic contrast. It would still have to be programmed correctly and things like gamma need to be adjusted on the fly but using the LEDs as the "iris" should be much better then the crappy standard mechanical iris that all other projectors use.
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post #174 of 1227 Old 08-11-2013, 11:52 AM
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It's not a mechanical Iris that sits in front of the lens. The reason some iris suck is because they are very slow and the pumping is obvious.

I assume they are modulating the LED light output which is instantaneous and that is how they are achieving there dynamic contrast. It would still have to be programmed correctly and things like gamma need to be adjusted on the fly but using the LEDs as the "iris" should be much better then the crappy standard mechanical iris that all other projectors use.

You would think that but it still comes down to how the software is written and if not written properly it can act like a "slow" mechanical iris. For instance if it's set too sensitive to changes in brightness you're still going to get pumping. My NuVision has three modes for it's DI and the two strongest modes would be too noticeable for my taste, especially after seeing a few other good implementations (Planar PD8150 and a Sony HW50ES). The least strongest mode hits the nail on the head and works about 95% as good as either of the two projectors previously mentioned. It's all about how it's implemented. The Optoma HD25 I have has bulb based frame-by-frame modulation to help with contrast. The bulb being used here was designed to be modulated this fast and the software is a bit sensitive and sometimes changes too abruptly in the middle of a fairly calm scene (calm in regards to changes in contrast). It's implementation isn't the worst I've seen, but I still think that Optoma implements these as an afterthought or as some type of marketing scheme that they can place in the specs to make their product look good on paper even if they don't perform as well as other projectors with similar specs.
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post #175 of 1227 Old 08-11-2013, 12:37 PM
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You would think that but it still comes down to how the software is written and if not written properly it can act like a "slow" mechanical iris. For instance if it's set too sensitive to changes in brightness you're still going to get pumping. My NuVision has three modes for it's DI and the two strongest modes would be too noticeable for my taste, especially after seeing a few other good implementations (Planar PD8150 and a Sony HW50ES). The least strongest mode hits the nail on the head and works about 95% as good as either of the two projectors previously mentioned. It's all about how it's implemented. The Optoma HD25 I have has bulb based frame-by-frame modulation to help with contrast. The bulb being used here was designed to be modulated this fast and the software is a bit sensitive and sometimes changes too abruptly in the middle of a fairly calm scene (calm in regards to changes in contrast). It's implementation isn't the worst I've seen, but I still think that Optoma implements these as an afterthought or as some type of marketing scheme that they can place in the specs to make their product look good on paper even if they don't perform as well as other projectors with similar specs.

Good to know.

At least it will be software related and not mechanical. Firmware updates could possible totally fix a botched initial program that is running the LEDs why to aggressive, not aggressive enough, etc. However a bad mechanical iris can never be fixed. The Epson iris is both very slow, and also makes noise like a coffee grinder, and many other iris i've seen produce noise as well.

The only iris i've liked has been the one is my Sony projectors (pearl, VW90, 50es) every other iris implementation was unusable for me (Optoma, Benq, Epson, Infocus)

Also, just curious why you are selling your NuVision? How does it compare to a top tier projector like a Sony, or JVC?
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post #176 of 1227 Old 08-11-2013, 01:33 PM
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Good to know.

At least it will be software related and not mechanical. Firmware updates could possible totally fix a botched initial program that is running the LEDs why to aggressive, not aggressive enough, etc. However a bad mechanical iris can never be fixed. The Epson iris is both very slow, and also makes noise like a coffee grinder, and many other iris i've seen produce noise as well.

The only iris i've liked has been the one is my Sony projectors (pearl, VW90, 50es) every other iris implementation was unusable for me (Optoma, Benq, Epson, Infocus)

Also, just curious why you are selling your NuVision? How does it compare to a top tier projector like a Sony, or JVC?

I'm selling it because I just moved and I'm using an extra bedroom for my home theater equipment now and I only have about 10' to throw an image so it won't work in that room. With that said, I've owned four different JVC models and spent about 5 hours with a Sony VPL-HW50ES and with the exception of pure on/off contrast performance the NuVision (like many higher end DLP projectors that I've owned) outperform the Sony and JVC projectors in all other areas. With the DI on I still get a black level that is convincingly black and contrast performance on any mid-to regular brightness scene being better due in part to more than double the ANSI contrast the NuVision has (around 850:1 measured ANSI vs 350:1 on the LCOS models mentioned). Sharpness and motion are sublime due to great optics and the use of a DLP chip. There's no RBE because of the LEDs and I don't have to worry about them dimming over time or worry about recalibrating every few hundred hours. If I had the appropriate space and screen size I'd totally keep the Nivision but I know I'll be living here for at least another 18 months (lease) so I'm deciding to sell it and use my Planar PD8150 and Optoma HD25 for a 2D + 3D combination instead.
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post #177 of 1227 Old 08-11-2013, 03:11 PM
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What do you see as the biggest advantages of DLP? I have limited experience outside of LCOS / SXRD so I am curious. Before the recent try I had with the Panasonic hybrid LED/laser (terrible), I have only seen a 3 chip "entry level" DPI and then much older single chip ones like the most recent Marantz from a few years ago. The 3 chipper was fine but I didnt see anything revolutionary in it. My Sony 1000 that I just sold was just as good or better overall. That DLP was on a much smaller screen, though, and in a different environment, so I cant make direct comparisons.

I see rainbows horribly on the single chippers, even seeing them on the Panasonic, but maybe the phosphor wheel for the laser contributed to that. I am very interested in checking out this Optoma if it can really deliver 1000 lumens, but am just curious to hear your take on why good DLP machines are inherently superior. Any DLP qualifies here, regardless of price. I do try to separate benefits that step from expensive 3 chippers being simply brighter, though.
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post #178 of 1227 Old 08-11-2013, 03:54 PM
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WIth an LED based single chip DLP you don't have to worry about rainbows. The sequential color is flashed on screen more than 5 times faster than the fastest color wheel. Color saturation on an LED based DLP machine looks like a three chip DLP projector.

I think that .95" DC3/DC4 single chip DLP has several inherent advantages over a 3chip LCOS machine. The first is obvious and that is convergence. You don't have to worry about any convergence errors with a single chip solution. Secondly, with almost every .95' DMD DLP projector out there you get fantastic lens options which results in the sharpest picture out there for home theater. Next is ANSI contrast. The 1000ES had fantastic ANSI contrast which is unusual for any lower cost LCOS machine. Typically a .95" DMD DLP based projector has anywhere from 600-1000:1 ANSI contrast. You normally only get 300-400 with an LCOS machine. This is what gives DLP projectors that classic "pop" with brighter scenes. The image has a more 3D look due in part to the higher contrast. Next would be motion handling. Sony has this down as best as one could hope for a non DLP solution. JVC on the other hand is lacking and I'm not the only person who complains about it. DLP mirrors have a native response time over 1000x faster than any LCD or LCOS panel. There are several types of medium to fast motion issues that can be seen on a non-DLP based projector because of this slower response time. Next would be less brightness uniformity and the lack of "bright corners" on LCOS based machine. This issue is very common on LCOS machines but it's severity changes on a unit to unit basis much like convergence issues.

Negatives of most DLP projectors would be low native contrast which can only be helped with the use of a manual or dynamic iris or even an ND filter. The pixel fill rate is about 5% lower on DLP but that 5% is hard to notice. Many people don't like pixel grid visibility (which can be more apparent on a DLP projector) but that is subjective on how "film like" (read softer) you want the image to appear.

Each person is different and may value one picture quality aspect over another. I know I much prefer DLP because I think the huge amount of advantages totally outweigh the one or two disadvantages. A quality DLP projector supplemented with a good DI or manual iris is just what I happen to prefer. There aren't too many options out there that offer that though and they can be quite expensive, but, just like your 1000ES, you get what you pay for.
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post #179 of 1227 Old 08-11-2013, 03:54 PM
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I been looking for a good dlp. I just don't want to buy anything used for thousands of dollars. If I'm spending $3K+ I am going to want to buy something new. I'm hoping that I can get the optoma for $3K street price or something similar. I might buy something used, but not for over $3K. I have to make sure I have enough left over for a 4K Sony or JVC. I'm all for dual projectors. I saw a LED Digital Projection projector for $4K, I might jump on that
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post #180 of 1227 Old 08-11-2013, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

I been looking for a good dlp. I just don't want to buy anything used for thousands of dollars. If I'm spending $3K+ I am going to want to buy something new. I'm hoping that I can get the optoma for $3K street price or something similar. I might buy something used, but not for over $3K. I have to make sure I have enough left over for a 4K Sony or JVC. I'm all for dual projectors. I saw a LED Digital Projection projector for $4K, I might jump on that

here's some of the single panel 1080P DLP choices:

  • 0.95 (2D / Lamp ) - Older models like the Marantz, Sharp, etc. no warranty, some companies are out of business in this market. sometimes good deals show up. No 3D. lamps for these models can be expensive.

  • 0.95 (2D / Lamp) - 'new' old stock models, like the Runco LS-5. Full warranty but tech hasn't been updated for 3D. That's a shame, I think an under 10K 0.95 would be a popular seller as long as they nailed the 3D with enough brightness.

  • 0.95 (2D / LED) - over 10K, some popular models don't have 3D

  • 0.65 (2D / 3D Lamp) - usually under 4k. Some will be a pain for those sensitive to RBE, one of the few that passes is the Sharp 30K, now discontinued. All are DC2 or DC3, perceived contrast and color performance can vary widely between models.

  • 0.65 (2D / 3D LED) - The Optoma HD91 is one of the first of it's kind at this price point, at least with full 3D support.


I'm excited to see more details on this model. especially if it works with my HP screen. We have to find out how many 3D lumens it can crank out.
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Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

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