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post #181 of 1227 Old 08-11-2013, 07:05 PM
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What is it about the .95 chips that drives up the cost 3x or more?
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post #182 of 1227 Old 08-11-2013, 07:08 PM
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Projector makers I bet don't want to be to quick with this tech. A lot of enthusiasts run their units through one or two bulbs before replacing them. If you introduce units that hold their brightness and color accuracy AND no bulb replacements needed then they are significantly increasing the length of the upgrade cycle.

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post #183 of 1227 Old 08-11-2013, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Toknowshita View Post

Projector makers I bet don't want to be to quick with this tech. A lot of enthusiasts run their units through one or two bulbs before replacing them. If you introduce units that hold their brightness and color accuracy AND no bulb replacements needed then they are significantly increasing the length of the upgrade cycle.

I would say this isn't a problem yet mostly because UHD is on the verge of breaking the $10000 mark for home theater projectors. People will still buy them for other reasons, like lack of RBE, the need to only calibrate once, no dimming, it can be used for more than just "movies" and be left on for regular TV watching, ect. People will eventually buy a UHD model. This is when they might start to run into problems. But, if these companies can make a great product they don't have to refresh the market once a year with an updated model. They can rest on their laurels, save money with R&D and produce a new projector once every other year or once every three years when we'll see more revolutionary performance jumps as to evolutionary jumps once a year.
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post #184 of 1227 Old 08-11-2013, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

here's some of the single panel 1080P DLP choices:

  • 0.95 (2D / Lamp ) - Older models like the Marantz, Sharp, etc. no warranty, some companies are out of business in this market. sometimes good deals show up. No 3D. lamps for these models can be expensive.

  • 0.95 (2D / Lamp) - 'new' old stock models, like the Runco LS-5. Full warranty but tech hasn't been updated for 3D. That's a shame, I think an under 10K 0.95 would be a popular seller as long as they nailed the 3D with enough brightness.

  • 0.95 (2D / LED) - over 10K, some popular models don't have 3D

  • 0.65 (2D / 3D Lamp) - usually under 4k. Some will be a pain for those sensitive to RBE, one of the few that passes is the Sharp 30K, now discontinued. All are DC2 or DC3, perceived contrast and color performance can vary widely between models.

  • 0.65 (2D / 3D LED) - The Optoma HD91 is one of the first of it's kind at this price point, at least with full 3D support.


I'm excited to see more details on this model. especially if it works with my HP screen. We have to find out how many 3D lumens it can crank out.

Thanks Jason. I would prefer a DLP with 3D, but a non 3D one will be fine. I don't want one that a jvc with look much better at. That's basically what I want, to be able to watch a movie that will look great on both projectors
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post #185 of 1227 Old 08-11-2013, 10:53 PM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

Thanks Jason. I would prefer a DLP with 3D, but a non 3D one will be fine. I don't want one that a jvc with look much better at. That's basically what I want, to be able to watch a movie that will look great on both projectors

Unless this Optoma is a complete game changer you aren't going to find a new DLP unit at the $3000 street price point that performs on par with or better than a JVC.
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post #186 of 1227 Old 08-11-2013, 10:59 PM
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Originally Posted by hifiaudio2 View Post

What is it about the .95 chips that drives up the cost 3x or more?

TI basically price fixes the .95" DMDs so only projectors with ~$5000 or higher MSRPs can use them. They're larger than the .65" DMD which helps a lens tremendously to resolve the pixels more and native contrast is typically more than double on the .95" DC3 and DC4 DMDs. Typically ~1500-2000:1 vs 3000-3500:1 before an iris.
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post #187 of 1227 Old 08-12-2013, 04:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Toknowshita View Post

Projector makers I bet don't want to be to quick with this tech. A lot of enthusiasts run their units through one or two bulbs before replacing them. If you introduce units that hold their brightness and color accuracy AND no bulb replacements needed then they are significantly increasing the length of the upgrade cycle.

I don't really buy this either, well let me rephrase that, I don't think that's a valid reason, I don't think lamp replacment factors into projector sales all that much. The way I see things, image quality has been the driving force, by a large margin, over the last say 10 years. Improvements in color, brightness (to a degree) resolution, but especially contrast have been what drives sales. I don't buy the argument that if you didn't have to replace lamps people wouldn't replace their projectors, at least not enough to have enough of an effect to drag their feet releasing something without a lamp.

That said I can see projector marketing departments getting that idea in their head I suppose.

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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

TI basically price fixes the .95" DMDs so only projectors with ~$5000 or higher MSRPs can use them. They're larger than the .65" DMD which helps a lens tremendously to resolve the pixels more and native contrast is typically more than double on the .95" DC3 and DC4 DMDs. Typically ~1500-2000:1 vs 3000-3500:1 before an iris.

I'm not sure I'd put it that way. TI surely charges more for .95" and higher grade (contrast) DMDs, but I think that just leads to a natural stratification. I mean say TI charges $500 more for a .95" DC4 DMD than a .65" lower contrast one. For projectors less than $5000, that's an enormous portion of the cost of the machine, and on top of that the size of the DMD means the optics are significantly more expensive, especially if you want to include features like lens shift which make projectors more desirable. I'm sure TI would sell someone like Optoma or BenQ .95" DC4 DMDs, but I'm guessing the price of the DMD plus optics to deliver the feature set these manufacturers like to deliver would drive the price of the projector up over $5000 just like it does for Runco and the like.

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post #188 of 1227 Old 08-12-2013, 06:19 AM
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Originally Posted by conan48 View Post

Good to know.

At least it will be software related and not mechanical. Firmware updates could possible totally fix a botched initial program that is running the LEDs why to aggressive, not aggressive enough, etc. However a bad mechanical iris can never be fixed. The Epson iris is both very slow, and also makes noise like a coffee grinder, and many other iris i've seen produce noise as well.

The only iris i've liked has been the one is my Sony projectors (pearl, VW90, 50es) every other iris implementation was unusable for me (Optoma, Benq, Epson, Infocus)

Also, just curious why you are selling your NuVision? How does it compare to a top tier projector like a Sony, or JVC?

You have stated everything backwards. Just because it goes faster does not solve the problem, the problem is the smoothness of the response curve to how the peak white level in a given scene is affected in relation to the APL and gamma of the scene, and in relation to the next scene as the lighting changes from scene to scene and how our eyes interpret all these changes. This is going to be my technical response to your earlier remarks, because clearly some earlier comments were baiting trying to make it look like I had no understanding of what I was saying, yet I am very sure that I do have a very deep understanding of this topic...

Hence, it is the drops in the white levels, changes to APL and gamma, and the overall effect to the brightness of a scene that you see as being an annoyance to the eye, if this occurs too fast it will be noticed easier, not less. The better way to improve the issue is with higher native on/off. In order for any dynamic contrast to be able to match the effects of native On/Off (and hence BECOME native on/off), it would have to be as fast as the refresh rates, and I doubt the technology even in LED is that fast (but i know very little about LED, haven't cared much about it because no-one has really gotten it right under $10,000 yet).

I know what some are thinking about now, probably that Native on/off is technically a form of "faster" dynamic contrast since it is a measurement of a full white to black. For what we use the measurement for it is not, this is because in reality we are ONLY using Native On/Off as an indicator of how high the intrascene contrast will be in a low APL scene. If we had a standardized way to measure intrascene contrast in a low apl scene, then we wouldn't even ever measure Native On/off. So the reality of it is, that is why to match Native on/off, the technology would have to affect not just the levels in the scene, but the actual intrascene contrast of the scene (hence to do this it'd have to match the refresh rate itself on each individual pixel).

The best IRIS's are actually the slower programmed IRIS's that less often need to use the max speed. Even in the case of an instantly bright to dark scene, it takes our eyes a second to adjust so the key to the IRIS code is to try to match the NATURAL speed of how our eyes adjust to the picture in relation to how the lighting in the movie is changing. The reason we see jerkiness is because an IRIS responds too fast outside the optimal response curve as seen by the naked eye, or the mechanical nature of the IRIS lacks "smooth steps" so that you see it jerk even when making a small change. The Sony has both a smooth mechanical stepping IRIS, fast when it needs to be, and slow most of the time in its smoothness. The entire trick to programming an IRIS is to make it respond SLOWLY and smoothly to the Gamma + APL derivative so that you do not need to use the SPEED of it. If you allow the IRIS to positionally jump around from MAX to MIN too much, then that means it is violating a smooth curve and that is not the result you need.

The Sony (most of the time) is one of the slowest reacting IRIS's except in the case of a severe APL change when it needs to go faster, and that's why it is so hard to see, hence the reason the Sony can still work and still be slow is because the derivative based on the APL and Gamma is more naturally matched up to its response curve over time to keep it hidden from our eyes without needing it to JERK itself. The reason the Epson appears to be slow is because it is "driving too close to the edge" - so to speak. Other IRIS's are like hacked up code that are re-calibrating in the middle of an APL change.

In general it is usually a software problem. I don't know about LED dimming techniques though, but even if it has SUPER SPEED, it doesn't change the fact that ANY dimming technology drops the PEAK white level, and that is the annoying effect we see by eye.


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post #189 of 1227 Old 08-12-2013, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

I'm not sure I'd put it that way. TI surely charges more for .95" and higher grade (contrast) DMDs, but I think that just leads to a natural stratification. I mean say TI charges $500 more for a .95" DC4 DMD than a .65" lower contrast one. For projectors less than $5000, that's an enormous portion of the cost of the machine, and on top of that the size of the DMD means the optics are significantly more expensive, especially if you want to include features like lens shift which make projectors more desirable. I'm sure TI would sell someone like Optoma or BenQ .95" DC4 DMDs, but I'm guessing the price of the DMD plus optics to deliver the feature set these manufacturers like to deliver would drive the price of the projector up over $5000 just like it does for Runco and the like.

I tend to agree and this is the likely reason why we are seeing the DC3 .65.

Its a pity Optoma didn't take a tier approach like JVC for instance, where you have the base model and then models up the range with more contrast etc....

Maybe if this is a success for Optoma (and there is a very good chance it will be a success) then they might look at this for future models with a DC4 .95" plus improved lens being the top tier model.
And if they can build further, maybe we'll see them become a bigger player with a 4k model at a good entry level price in time to come. It wasn't that long ago that Optoma were at the front of home theatre projection and bringing us the 1st mainstream 1080p model with outboard video processor. Maybe now is the time for Optoma to re-establish themselves as a bigger player in the home theatre game - this HD91 certainly makes you think that they are giving it a good effort.
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post #190 of 1227 Old 08-12-2013, 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

You have stated everything backwards. Just because it goes faster does not solve the problem, the problem is the smoothness of the response curve to how the peak white level in a given scene is affected in relation to the APL and gamma of the scene, and in relation to the next scene as the lighting changes from scene to scene and how our eyes interpret all these changes. This is going to be my most complete and technical response to the issue ever, because clearly some earlier comments were baiting into trying to make it look like I had no idea what I was saying, yet I am very sure that I do have a very deep understanding of this topic...

Hence, it is the drops in the white levels and APL and gamma and MAX levels that you see as being an annoyance to the eye, if this occurs too fast it will be noticed easier, not less. The better way to improve the issue is with higher native on/off. and In order for any dynamic contrast to be able to match the effects of native On/Off (and hence BECOME native on/off), it would have to be as fast as the refresh rates, and I doubt the technology even in LED is that fast (but i know very little about LED, haven't cared much about it because no-one has really gotten it right under $10,000 yet).

I know what some are thinking about now, probably that Native on/off is technically a form of "faster" dynamic contrast since it is a measurement of one scene to the next. For what we use the measurement for it is not, this is because in reality we are ONLY using Native On/Off as an indicator of how high the intrascene contrast will be in a low APL scene. If we had a standardized way to measure intrascene contrast in a low apl scene, then we wouldn't even need to ever measure Native On/off (but since we don't, we have to use it). So the reality of it is, that is why to match Native on/off, the technology would have to affect not just the levels in the scene, but the actual intrascene contrast of the scene (hence to do this it'd have to match the refresh rate itself).

The best IRIS's are actually the slower programmed IRIS's that less often need to use the max speed. Even in the case of an instantly bright to dark scene, it takes our eyes a second to adjust so the key to the IRIS code is to try to match the NATURAL speed of how our eyes adjust to the picture in relation to how the lighting in the movie is changing. The reason we see jerkiness is because an IRIS responds too fast outside the optimal response curve as seen by the naked eye, or the mechanical nature of the IRIS lacks "smooth steps" so that you see it jerk even when making a small change. The Sony has both a smooth mechanical stepping IRIS, fast when it needs to be, and slow most of the time in its smoothness.

The entire trick to programming an IRIS is to make it respond SLOWLY and smoothly to the Gamma + APL derivative so that you do not need to use the SPEED of it. If you allow the IRIS to positionally jump around from MAX to MIN too much, then that means it is violating a smooth curve and that is not the result you need.

The Sony (most of the time) is one of the slowest reacting IRIS's except in the case of a severe APL change when it needs to go faster, and that's why it is so hard to see, hence the reason the Sony can still work and still be slow is because the derivative based on the APL and Gamma is more naturally matched up to its response curve over time to keep it hidden from our eyes without needing it to JERK itself. The reason the Epson appears to be slow is because it is "driving too close to the edge" - so to speak. Other IRIS's are like hacked up code that are re-calibrating in the middle of an APL change.

In general it is usually a software problem. I don't understand your first post saying that just because it uses a lamp dimming tech or any similar tech can make the software simpler to write, it likely does not make it simpler but it probably makes it harder. Though the mechanics of IRIS motors are usually faster than they need to be (if you write the IRIS code properly), but lamp dimmers (maybe not for LED, but for UHP anyhow) are another story entirely and react slower than mechanical IRIS's, that the lamp dimming might actually be slow enough to not be able to keep up with the curve. I don't know about LED dimming techniques though, but even if it has SUPER SPEED, it doesn't change the fact that ANY dimming technology drops the PEAK white level, and that is the annoying effect we see by eye.

You really need to do some research on LEDs. Yes it is THAT FAST. The only thing you are right about is peak white level dropping. You do know that your eyes are basically work like an iris right? I don't have time to go into all the nuances of this. When you have done your research, we can talk again. Thanks.
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post #191 of 1227 Old 08-12-2013, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by conan48 View Post

You really need to do some research on LEDs. Yes it is THAT FAST. The only thing you are right about is peak white level dropping. You do know that your eyes are basically work like an iris right? I don't have time to go into all the nuances of this. When you have done your research, we can talk again. Thanks.

The only thing I am right about, sure, that is purely attitude. I do know about IRIS's and everything I stated was correct. In fact I might know more about it than some of the programmers that wrote some of this IRIS code from the looks of it.

If LED dimming were as fast as the refresh rate, then it is not a form of a dynamic contrast, and instead they would refer to it as Native contrast. Even if it shows up in the measurement of Native on/off, it wouldn't necessarily indicate that it is THAT FAST, because we cannot measure that fast. So regardless, only if the intrascene contrast is as high in Low APL scenes could it truly be considered comparable in how we use native on/off in traditional non-dimming mechanisms such as how LCOS displays the image.

So even in this case, once you get to a certain speed of how fast you can dim the image, increasing the speed no longer helps (because you'll go out of synch on the curve). Otherwise the effect would make the image flicker. No programming would even be required in this case, because it would just be synch'd to the refresh rate. You can only measure native on/off so fast that you cannot be as fast as the refresh rate itself, so I do not need to research anything, it is you that need to do research before contradicting someone that might know more about it.

Though LED tech typically does have a bit higher native on/off than standard DLP, that technology they were referring to appeared to be a form of Dynamic contrast, separate completely. So then it cannot be that fast, and then in that case you have now corrected me 3 times, and you have been wrong all 3 times, 3 strikes and you are out...


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post #192 of 1227 Old 08-12-2013, 10:04 AM
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If LED dimming were as fast as the refresh rate, then it is not a form of a dynamic contrast, and instead they would refer to it as Native contrast.

LEDs in these machines do a complete cycle (completely off, to on, to completely off) on the order of 30+ times per frame, they have absolutely no trouble adjusting their brightness within the time period of a frame.

The reason they don't call it "Native" is because it's still dynamic modulation of the light output (just like a dynamic iris). The Planar 8150/LS5 has a mechanical iris that can adjust within the time period of a frame. DI's really are a combination of fast and slow. They need to be capable of adjusting "instantaneously", for example when you go from a nearly black frame to an instant cut to a very bright one, you want the "DI" to adjust instantaneously.

But on the contrary, if there's significant bright content you want the adjustment to be approximately the same as that of your eyes to the APL change.

That's the magic of a good DI. On something like the 8150 (and presumably Sony and Sim2) they have a DI that can adjust effectively instantaneously, but the software has the smarts to know when to move that quick, and when to mimic the adjustment of the human eye so that it all appears invisible. Too slow or too quick at the wrong time and you see pumping.

You could actually see both at work in my W5000, you could look through the lens and actually see the dynamic iris move, and you could see that sometimes it moved very quickly and others much more slowly. And the W5000 had a pretty good DI implementation (though not quite as good as the top machines).

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post #193 of 1227 Old 08-12-2013, 10:17 AM
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I've never heard of any IRIS's that are programmed to often jump to full close and back at the speed of a frame, regardless of what the IRIS's motor is capable of, please provide proof of this, this sounds like total malarkey (no offense). As a matter of fact, almost every single projector that has ever been measured with Dynamic On/Off has had to wait a couple seconds to get the highest measurement, never seen one measured instantly produce the highest dynamic on/off capabilities (not in a calibrated realistic useable IRIS mode).

I did note that during a FAST APL change the Sony IRIS goes faster, but in reality it is more up to the code. Sounds like people just want to argue. Even something like flickering headlights will cause the IRIS to get very erratic in your example.


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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

I've never heard of any IRIS's that are programmed to jump to full close at the speed of a frame, regardless of what the IRIS's motor is capable of, please provide proof of this, this sounds like total malarkey (no offense). As a matter of fact, every single projector that has ever been measured with Dynamic On/Off has had to wait a few seconds to get the highest measurement, never seen one measured in 1 second produce the highest dynamic on/off capabilities (not in a calibrated realistic useable IRIS mode).

IIRC (and it's been a long time) on my W5000 when you would see it move quick was to open, rather than close. As in when it was closed down, you could see it "jump" on an abrupt bright scene change.

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post #195 of 1227 Old 08-12-2013, 11:35 AM
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As far as the LED dimming instantly to truly simulate Native On/Off, and them still referring to it as dynamic on/off, baloney, it's still a lamp dimming technology.

The maximum modulation is a completely separate issue in regards to what the LED is capable of to dimming a scene as a whole like an IRIS versus the contrast of individual pixels. They claim 500,000:1 contrast, if it could truly modulate at the speed of the refresh rate (or close enough) on every pixel, this would blow the JVC's contrast out of the water (it does not work this way because it will DIM white peaks, unlike a JVC)...

To explain this even simpler and to end this silly argument, no matter how fast the IRIS moves (or how fast the lamp Dims), the white peaks are still changed negatively, that is unless it can do this to individual pixels. See that is the real difference between intrascene and dynamic contrast. Also, unless it can affect individual pixels separately, there is no way that it getting faster and faster is going to yield large improvements, even if the scene is mostly black. Instead the good IRIS's just find the correct middle-ground on these scenes and do not close as far down. People often refer to an IRIS moving "slow", when really it is moving outside the optimal curve (too far) and that is why you see it in the first place (anytime we see it does not mean it is moving too slow or too fast just because you see it move that way, it just means we should not be seeing the movement in the first place because it is outside the curve).

So when we say such and such projector has better blacks due to the IRIS, it is often more due to the Native On/Off that it starts with before the IRIS even kicks in. Can an IRIS on an an entirely full black scene close instantly if it wants, sure it can but most of them don't. A dynamic gamma is added to counter some of this effect, but that can only go so far. It's more about the scenes between white and black that are tough. So just going to all black isn't even what counts, what counts is how the IRIS reacts on the other low APL scenes with actual content in them.

The trick to the IRIS code is to be stealthy like in its movements, not abrupt. The Benq IRIS is just way too abrupt, whereas the Sony is really smooth. One reason the Benq is so abrupt is because it does not start to close at the right time, and it opens up too easily even if you get a tiny object on the screen with a high VL. It's just poorly coded, plus the Native on/off is lower so it makes it harder to code the IRIS in the first place.


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post #196 of 1227 Old 08-12-2013, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Toknowshita View Post

Projector makers I bet don't want to be to quick with this tech. A lot of enthusiasts run their units through one or two bulbs before replacing them. If you introduce units that hold their brightness and color accuracy AND no bulb replacements needed then they are significantly increasing the length of the upgrade cycle.

I think what you write is partly true in the sense of strategy. Projector makers likely see the future in LED light source tech, and are planning for it. On the other hand, many companies likely are not in a hurry to be first adopters of the tech, with the risk and cost involved. Why not sit back and continue with the current tech/cash cow and not lose what revenue there is in replacement bulbs. Ride it out while watching the competition with a close eye, so as not to be left behind.

Someone will eventually hit with an LED projector(s) for reasonable price(s) with 1080p quality, and then we will see movement from the other projector makers. One reason we see some LED projectors from less traditional sources is precisely because these companies don't have so much to lose in terms of their current lines of traditional bulb projectors, and are willing to get into the LED market in some areas the other companies are not.

If I was running a traditional bulb projector company, I would be planning for LED tech, while riding out the current tech. I would let some other companies incur the cost and risk of LED projectors, while making sure to reasonably be able to introduce an LED projector when the time is right. I might get my feet wet with a budget LED projector sourced from a 3rd party manufacturer (as we have seen), but I would not go "all in" until necessary. I think we will continue to see this foot dragging until the hand is forced by a traditional projector company willing to take greater risk to get early market share and possibly cannibalize their other projector lines, or a more non-traditional company that is willing to get into the LED projector business as newer kid and gain share.

I believe projector companies have strategy meetings and likely there is the opinion of many to keep the throttle down on LED until forced or until there is a reasonable chance to gain and hold a market share in the newer tech. It is not some big conspiracy, but rather business sense in their view. I would love to see a white knight come in from outside the industry, with a lot of cash to burn, and make a play for the LED market to shake things up. As it stands, looks like I will be enjoying my LG PA70G LED projector for quite a while, given the slow pace of LED light source adoption and the considerable price jump to higher quality tech (PA70g cost me $450 while HD91 estimated at $4000!).
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post #197 of 1227 Old 08-12-2013, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

That said I can see projector marketing departments getting that idea in their head I suppose.
I'm not sure I'd put it that way. TI surely charges more for .95" and higher grade (contrast) DMDs, but I think that just leads to a natural stratification. I mean say TI charges $500 more for a .95" DC4 DMD than a .65" lower contrast one. For projectors less than $5000, that's an enormous portion of the cost of the machine, and on top of that the size of the DMD means the optics are significantly more expensive, especially if you want to include features like lens shift which make projectors more desirable. I'm sure TI would sell someone like Optoma or BenQ .95" DC4 DMDs, but I'm guessing the price of the DMD plus optics to deliver the feature set these manufacturers like to deliver would drive the price of the projector up over $5000 just like it does for Runco and the like.

Yes, you're right. Price fixing is probably not the best term to use here, but I'm certain it doesn't cost them the same percentage in price hike over the smaller DMDs to manufacture them. They are keeping the price artificially high because they are a very premium product that they have a monopoly on and can monetize off of because they know certain manufacturers will buy them no matter what.

Regarding lens quality; when spending as much as the .95" DMD projectors normally cost one expects fantastic optics. With that said, if used in a more affordable model you could use similar lens quality that the .65" normally get and still get a much sharper picture and one that has higher native contrast. The larger DMD doesn't necessitate better lens quality to get more sharpness, it's actually the opposite. The inherent advantages of the larger DMD could greatly benefit the lower priced DLP projector market. Unfortunately they'd need to cut corners elsewhere to bring the product to market and still make a profit off of it. One place I'd look at would be image processing. I doubt many are still feeding their 1080p displays with lower resolution content anymore. The scaling capabilities aren't needed as much anymore and a manufacturer could save some money by not using such a high end scaler/processor. That would be a good place to start.
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post #198 of 1227 Old 08-12-2013, 03:27 PM
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Projector manufacturers don't make that much from replacement bulbs on home theater projectors, most of the replacement bulb money is made on business projectors. The average person just does not put enough hours on their home theater projector to warrant enough replacements for them to make any money, there are some in AVS that do, but we are not the average and even in here many replace the entire PJ before the bulb. Also, many people in here instead buy generics or OEM without housing. The MFR's do not have "high profit" bulb strategies for home theater projectors.

The real problem with LED projectors has been the optics and the engineering, in the sub-10k market it has not gotten up to the same quality of the UHP counterparts. They don't care that much about fewer bulb replacements for home theater projectors, but their MFR cost is higher in these projectors and there are some engineering hurdles still.


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post #199 of 1227 Old 08-12-2013, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

As far as the LED dimming instantly and them still referring to it as dynamic on/off, then I'll believe it when I see it, but so far on the LED's I've read about, it's still a lamp dimming technology.

I think the maximum modulation is a completely separate issue in regards to what the LED is capable of to dimming a scene as a whole like an IRIS versus the contrast of individual pixels. They claim 500,000:1 contrast, if it could truly modulate at the speed of the refresh rate (or close enough) on every pixel, this would blow the JVC's contrast out of the water (I do not believe it works this way)...

LEDs can't modulate on the individual pixel level, there is one LED each for Red, Green, and Blue. They light the whole DMD like a lamp, but they are flashed sequentially instead of using a colorwheel. There is no local dimming with LED projection.

I'm guessing you know all this (LEDs drive the whole DMD, and they can be modulated instantaneously) and that you are just referring to the whole system when you say they dim slow. That's probably true, but that wasn't clear from your original comment which sounded like you were saying the LEDs couldn't change brightness quickly (rather than they choose not to).
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To explain this even simpler and to end this silly argument, no matter how fast the IRIS moves (or how fast the lamp Dims), the white peaks are still changed negatively, that is unless it can do this to individual pixels. See that is the real difference between intrascene and dynamic contrast. Also, unless it can affect individual pixels separately, there is no way that it getting faster and faster is going to yield large improvements, even if the scene is mostly black. Instead the good IRIS's just find the correct middle-ground on these scenes and do not close as far down. People often refer to an IRIS moving "slow", when really it is moving outside the optimal curve (too far) and that is why you see it in the first place (anytime we see it does not mean it is moving too slow or too fast just because you see it move that way, it just means we should not be seeing the movement in the first place because it is outside the curve).

FWIW, I do agree, I don't think LED will get that much gain in contrast as I don't think the mechanical systems were limiting performance as is. As an example I'm sure Planar (or Sim2, or Sony) could be more aggressive with their implementation with nothing but a software change, but they've all chosen their parameters based on optimal performance vs noticability.
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So when we say such and such projector has better blacks due to the IRIS, it is often more due to the Native On/Off that it starts with before the IRIS even kicks in. Can an IRIS on an an entirely full black scene close instantly if it wants, sure it can but most of them don't.

LED machines (Vango, Mico, Runco, etc) actually can turn the LEDs off for those scenes, but from what I've read, most people don't like that setting as it doesn't work "invisibly"
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

Yes, you're right. Price fixing is probably not the best term to use here, but I'm certain it doesn't cost them the same percentage in price hike over the smaller DMDs to manufacture them. They are keeping the price artificially high because they are a very premium product that they have a monopoly on and can monetize off of because they know certain manufacturers will buy them no matter what.

Regarding lens quality; when spending as much as the .95" DMD projectors normally cost one expects fantastic optics. With that said, if used in a more affordable model you could use similar lens quality that the .65" normally get and still get a much sharper picture and one that has higher native contrast. The larger DMD doesn't necessitate better lens quality to get more sharpness, it's actually the opposite.

But it does (I believe) require a larger (more expensive) lens if you want lens shift. That's why when you look at DLPs, so many had fixed offsets, that allowed the use of smaller, cheaper lenses. It wasn't until the .65" DMDs came out that you started seeing most DLPs have "competitive" lens shift options (at least on the less expensive machines).

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #200 of 1227 Old 08-12-2013, 03:43 PM
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I was not saying anything about LED's changing brightness quickly (I specifically said I don't know in this case how fast the lamp dimming works), but I was just saying that IRIS's are fast too, but that doesn't mean they USE that speed. You cannot realistically program them to react at those speeds, because 99% of content reaction has to be slow to keep it hidden from the eye. The reason is because the white peaks in a scene with dark blacks is constantly variable. You could make it go fast in some cases when the APL just completely changes, but that's nitpicking.

It was also implied by some in here that since the lamp dimming is so fast, this is very similar to Native On/Off. I explained why it is not the same thing, because we are using Native on/off to get an idea of how good the intrascene will be in low APL, when using any dynamic / dimming tech it affects the white peak and does not improve intrascene, that is why it is not the same.

It is also not because the Sony IRIS moves faster than the others, it is because it moves more precisely. Hence, it makes the correct concessions and stays within the accepted curve of how our eyes notice the change, but it also at times does not have as much effect to the image as more wild IRIS's do.

It is silly to think that because the lamp dimming speed can be faster than an IRIS that it solves the problems that IRIS code has had, it is still the same software problem other than the physical noise it makes. There are plenty of IRIS's that can go really fast, they just don't because the response curves will get even more messed up.


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post #201 of 1227 Old 08-13-2013, 02:52 AM
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Originally Posted by biliam1982 View Post

I was really hoping for a motorized zoom. Is the lens at least center based to be compatible w/ HP screens?

Both the 90 and 91 seem to be the same price. Is that Chinese Yuan?

That's come out at $20k? Didn't somebody say it converted to around $4k?

Edit: I'm guessing it's the New Taiwan Dollar?




Okay, maths isn't my strong point, so can someone confirm the following.

My room is 4.9m long.

I will have a CIA (2.00:1 ratio) screen 2.8m wide x 1.4m high.

Films in 16:9 will fill the height of the screen, but not the width, effectively throwing a 16:9 image 2.49m wide x 1.4m tall.

Films in 2.4:1 will fill the width of the screen but not the height, effectively throwing a 16:9 image (all be it with black bars at the top and bottom) 2.8m wide and 1.575 tall (image 2.8m x 1.17m).

So, the projector will have to zoom between 2.49m and 2.8m (that's width rather than diagonal).

With the basic maths I have I think it'll be well within the zoom of the HD91 to do this, and that it'll fit in my room, but can someone confirm this?

Any figures/distances/sizes most welcome,

Cheers.

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post #202 of 1227 Old 08-13-2013, 08:13 AM
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What's the main difference between the 0.65 and 0.95, is it pixel clock?

I think they both are diamond pixel with a 1920x1080 mirror array.
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post #203 of 1227 Old 08-13-2013, 09:30 AM
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The pixels are square on both panels.

http://www.videovantage.com/?p=11

much of this is still valid except the JVC's have noticeably improved the pixel MTF since the RS20.
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post #204 of 1227 Old 08-13-2013, 11:11 AM
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That is a great article. JVC projectors are now sharper than most .65" DMD DLP projectors. After owning the JVC DLA-X3 and JVC DLA-X30 I can confirm this. But, as you can see from those pictures, the PD8150 has fantastic optics and is still a decent margin ahead of what current JVCs can do in terms of pixel delineation. How much of that translates to video sharpness is dependent on the source material being viewed. The JVCs are now sharp enough and resolve enough detail on most older material that it's hard to tell a difference. The extra sharpness is much more apparent on newer films which typically have a very clean and highly detailed source.
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post #205 of 1227 Old 08-13-2013, 11:44 AM
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Yep great articles. Makes me want to revisit if a .65 DLP is as equal to a .95 chip as I thought it would be.
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post #206 of 1227 Old 08-13-2013, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by hifiaudio2 View Post

Yep great articles. Makes me want to revisit if a .65 DLP is as equal to a .95 chip as I thought it would be.

The .65" DMD was made to save costs for both the TI and projector OEM but in doing so there was a deficit in performance. You could potentially match the sharpness of the .95" DMD but the money you'd need to spend on such a lens would greatly outweigh the savings you got with choosing the smaller DMD. Plus, native contrast is about double with the larger DMD.
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post #207 of 1227 Old 08-13-2013, 12:30 PM
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Yeah its really too bad... I have been looking at a Highlite 660 and the commensurate jump to a 3d capable projector that can output equivalent brightness and has .95 chips (Titan Reference) is basically double the street price.
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post #208 of 1227 Old 08-13-2013, 12:53 PM
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I will be very interested to see if these new Optoma LED projectors are actually as bright as spec.'d. cool.gif

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post #209 of 1227 Old 08-13-2013, 12:58 PM
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I am holding some hope that they are. Since they didn't specify a rediculous lumen spec, like 2000 or more, and their press release literature linked above makes mention of brightness improvements multiple times, perhaps they are giving an honest spec. Seems LED projectors have been stuck at 700 or so lumens at best for a while, so maybe they have eeked out an additional 300 on this new unit. 1000 lumens that doesnt decrease over time on a positive gain screen could give us all some pretty nice, big images from a single chip DLP with little or no rainbows. And cheap. Here's hoping (but not counting on it cool.gif )
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post #210 of 1227 Old 08-13-2013, 03:13 PM
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Maybe. Don't remember what my H79 was spec.'d at, but the last time I measured it before selling it, I had around 350 lumens. Gave the term " a real dim bulb " new meaning. eek.gif

We shall see.

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