Mitsubishi HC5 vs. Sharp XV-Z30000 as a single PJ solution - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 113 Old 02-05-2013, 11:42 AM - Thread Starter
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I am struggling with the choice and want to hear your thoughts. They're roughly the same price.



Mitsubishi HC5 input lag ~40 ms, no info on Z30000.
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post #2 of 113 Old 02-05-2013, 12:52 PM
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Neither, Sony hw50es is my choice.


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post #3 of 113 Old 02-05-2013, 01:01 PM
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It depends on what you find more important. The Sharp will have that classic DLP pop and slightly sharper looking image over the Mitsubishi. If you plan on viewing a lot of 3D content go with the Sharp. If most of your viewing is going to be 2D both will look great and I think it's a toss up. I'm a DLP fan so I'd personally go with the sharp. I also think there aren't many reviews out for the HC5 and there are rumors that some of the more important components inside the HC9000D aren't in the HC5.

The Sony is a decent choice but I don't think it's that much of an upgrade over both the models here, especially for the price difference between these two models and the Sony.
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post #4 of 113 Old 02-05-2013, 01:05 PM
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The last three Sharp's have had the worst lens in any DLP pretty much ever. Not saying the 30000 has the same problem, but no-one in the forums has confirmed the sharpness. People who have seen the Sharps have not been all that impressed, though Art liked it.

I would choose the Sony hw50es, or JVC + DLP 2 projector combo, neither of these other projectors are well-tested yet, so we cannot really say.


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post #5 of 113 Old 02-05-2013, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

The last three Sharp's have had the worst lens in any DLP pretty much ever. Not saying the 30000 has the same problem, but no-one in the forums has confirmed the sharpness. People who have seen the Sharps have not been all that impressed, though Art liked it.

I would choose the Sony hw50es, or JVC + DLP 2 projector combo, neither of these other projectors are well-tested yet, so we cannot really say.

Art said it was on par with the HC7800D. The Sharp has been tested. Many like it. I would read the hometheater.com review. Overall they're a pretty reliable source. They gave it some high praise.

Also, he isn't considering the Sony which is a lot more in price. These two units can be had for 2000-2500 dollars. The Sony streets for atleast $1000 more.
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post #6 of 113 Old 02-05-2013, 01:10 PM
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Art also said the Epson was sharper than the JVC smile.gif

I am just telling you what others have said about it in here and other reviewers. The Sharp uses a plastic lens (or at least on other models). The hc7800d also had a lens issue, but if you look at Art's comments on the newer sharp carefully, you'll see he has mixed multiple review units together and you cannot tell which projector he is actually referring to for certain.

The Benq for instance, is far far sharper than the hc7800 or hc8000, confirmed by Zombie.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

Art also said the Epson was sharper than the JVC smile.gif

I am just telling you what others have said about it in here and other reviewers. The Sharp uses a plastic lens (or at least on other models). The hc7800d also had a lens issue, but if you look at Art's comments on the newer sharp carefully, you'll see he has mixed multiple review units together and you cannot tell which projector he is actually referring to for certain.

The Benq for instance, is far far sharper than the hc7800 or hc8000, confirmed by Zombie.

The Sony uses a plastic lens. What's your point? Both the Sony and the JVCs are quite a bit more money. It could have been his JVC review sample didn't look all that sharp.
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post #8 of 113 Old 02-05-2013, 01:15 PM
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Point:

$3,089 is the cheapest price I saw on the Sharp just now from Google (though some places might be $2800ish).
The Sony hw50es is more expensive, but not by $1000, heck try more like $250 to $400 and it comes with free glasses I believe and a better warranty.

My point is that the Sharp isn't very well tested, it doesn't have very bright 3D, it has no FI in 3D, the lamps are outrageous pricing, Sharp is going bankrupt, and not many comments in this forum about this PJ in general.

JVC + Benq w1070 or Sony hw50es...


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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

Point:

$3,089 is the cheapest price I saw on the Sharp just now from Google (though some places might be $2800ish).
The Sony hw50es is more expensive, but not by $1000, heck try more like $250 and it comes with free glasses I believe.

My point is that the Sharp isn't very well tested, it doesn't have very bright 3D, it has no FI in 3D, the lamps are outrageous pricing, Sharp is going bankrupt, and not many comments in this forum about this PJ in general.

JVC + Benq w1070 or Sony hw50es...

The Sharp is for $2000 via a groupon deal. You also get 2 pairs of 3D glasses included and 3 year warranty.

There are plenty of Sharp reviews out there. What are you talking about?
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post #10 of 113 Old 02-05-2013, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

The Sharp is for $2000 via a groupon deal. You also get 2 pairs of 3D glasses included and 3 year warranty.

OK, didn't know about that deal, that is a good deal. I would almost try it for that price smile.gif
Why don't you buy one and return it and tell us how you like the lens :P

Just messing with ya...


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post #11 of 113 Old 02-05-2013, 01:21 PM
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As for the reviews (these were on the first page of my search):

http://www.hometheater.com/content/sharp-xv-z30000-3d-dlp-video-projector

http://www.projectorreviews.com/sharp/xv-z30000/

http://www.cnet.com.au/sharp-xv-z30000-339334154.htm


All of them give the Sharp a fantastic rating. I think projectorcentral is planning on looking at the Sharp too.
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post #12 of 113 Old 02-05-2013, 01:24 PM
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If we all went by pro reviews, then we wouldn't need to visit this forum for the more critical viewers here.

I can tell you right away that 3D motion will be really bad on certain content:
In either 2D or 3D, the projector converts 24 fps (frames per second) sources—essentially all movies on Blu-ray—to 60 Hz by adding 3:2 pulldown.

I know what that looks like without FI in 3D, and it ain't purty senor. Though I'd rather have a DLP with no FI than a non-DLP for 3D with FI (IMO cause of ghosting on NON-DLP).

Still, I'm not convinced on the Sharp until someone tests it, but for $2k it looks good as a 3D + 2D projector.


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post #13 of 113 Old 02-05-2013, 01:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

If we all went by pro reviews, then we wouldn't need to visit this forum for the more critical viewers here.

I can tell you right away that 3D motion will be really bad on certain content:
In either 2D or 3D, the projector converts 24 fps (frames per second) sources—essentially all movies on Blu-ray—to 60 Hz by adding 3:2 pulldown.

I know what that looks like without FI in 3D, and it ain't purty senor. Though I'd rather have a DLP with no FI than a non-DLP for 3D with FI (IMO cause of ghosting on NON-DLP).

Still, I'm not convinced on the Sharp until someone tests it, but for $2k it looks good as a 3D + 2D projector.

Agree on the over-dependence on professional reviews (e.g. hometheater has awarded their 'HT Top Pick" designation to 12 of the last 15 3D projectors they've reviewed). Having said that, consensus among reviewers adds some weight to their conclusions. AVSer anilrao has the Sharp and really likes it, but I have no idea what other PJs he's had... I suspect there will be more data points over the next month with the recent groupon deals. I'm concerned but not convinced that 24p content is handled improperly... the projector has a 24p mode... why have this if to simply do 3:2 pulldown? Kris Deering has passed along a query to Tom Norton (who did the HT review) about this to see if he remembers confirming the 'film' mode was activated. anilrao says he sees no judder with 24p content, FWIW. I posted a question (in retrospect, poorly worded) on the product support page about 24p handling and Sharp claims to not use pulldown for 24p... again FWIW. The bottom line is we need more data points on this projector to answer the very specific concerns that have been raised. My biggest concern, and why I've not jumped on the groupons is the brightness... far from ideal theater environment and have a strong suspicion the brightness is not up to my needs.

"A wide screen just makes a bad film twice as bad. "
-Samuel Goldwyn

I wonder what he'd think about 3D IMAX?
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post #14 of 113 Old 02-05-2013, 01:41 PM
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If I knew I could sell my w7000 or the sharp for $1500 after buying the Sharp, I would do it, but I need to get busy seeing how hard it is to sell used projectors online, as I have not done it that many times. One thing is I've noticed people's listings are getting more and more stagnate and the used market is a bit flooded ATM due to everyone dumping stuff and trying a lot more different projectors (which is a trend these days).


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Quote:
Originally Posted by dougri View Post

Agree on the over-dependence on professional reviews (e.g. hometheater has awarded their 'HT Top Pick" designation to 12 of the last 15 3D projectors they've reviewed). Having said that, consensus among reviewers adds some weight to their conclusions. AVSer anilrao has the Sharp and really likes it, but I have no idea what other PJs he's had... I suspect there will be more data points over the next month with the recent groupon deals. I'm concerned but not convinced that 24p content is handled improperly... the projector has a 24p mode... why have this if to simply do 3:2 pulldown? Kris Deering has passed along a query to Tom Norton (who did the HT review) about this to see if he remembers confirming the 'film' mode was activated. anilrao says he sees no judder with 24p content, FWIW. I posted a question (in retrospect, poorly worded) on the product support page about 24p handling and Sharp claims to not use pulldown for 24p... again FWIW. The bottom line is we need more data points on this projector to answer the very specific concerns that have been raised. My biggest concern, and why I've not jumped on the groupons is the brightness... far from ideal theater environment and have a strong suspicion the brightness is not up to my needs.

To be completely honest I don't really go by what is said in the review either. I like hometheater.com reviews because they're pretty much the only site that posts numbers. And they seem to know what they're doing while taking them. You can't always say the same for members here. You don't really know what the room environment is like and how well they know what they're doing for calibration and if they're using the meters correctly. I also think the reason they've given so many top picks is because there are three (or more) different reviewers who are seeing different projectors.
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post #16 of 113 Old 02-05-2013, 01:51 PM
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Mitsubishi HC5 input lag ~40 ms, no info on Z30000.

No doubt the HC5 will have better native contrast than the Sharp, but that looks like a spec vs. a measured value. The native CR of the HC9000 is roughly 15k-20k:1 (http://www.avsforum.com/t/1254103/new-mitsubishi-hc-9000-full-hd-3d-and-lcos-panels/270#post_20383589)... I'd bet the HC5 is less than that given the lower price point. The Sharp was measured at just over 1700:1 by the HT review... keep in mind this is not peak native CR, but their assessment in a 'typical' setup... their methodology is not very friendly to some PJs (they just gave the HW50 a glowing review with a measured native CR of 2700:1).

Also keep in mind the 'calibrated' lumen value for the Sharp is Art's 'quick cal'... HT's review using the high lamp and high brightness mode (as opposed to high contrast) was a calibrated ~700 lumens. So, even those numbers depend on your definition of 'calibrated'.

Edit: CR corrected for HC5, unsubstantiated speculation removed.

"A wide screen just makes a bad film twice as bad. "
-Samuel Goldwyn

I wonder what he'd think about 3D IMAX?
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post #17 of 113 Old 02-05-2013, 01:57 PM
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IME, most of the contrast readings online are malarkey. When I do it, I take at least 5, sometimes 30.

A lot of people are not nearly as picky about color as some are. I immediately noticed that HP calibrations had a slight red tint and I had to lower RED due to the screen material giving slightly false meter readings. Then I confirmed this with other calibrators.

I will say the one downside of the JVC's is the color accuracy, people have claimed the RS-45 is really accurate in color, but it is not. It is far less accurate than any other PJ in its price range, even after a calibration, at least MINE is, and I know other calibrators said similar things just they didn't want to mention it in public. It is because even though the dE's aren't all that far off after calibration, it is the blue luminance and overly sat green (where some other JVC's have under-sat green). Then as you try to get the color perfect, you lose SO SO SO many lumens, more than any other PJ I've had recently. Then you throw the SAT tracking on top of it, and it's a bit messy.

So I love the JVC but would almost prefer the Sony for better brighter colors and better saturation tracking. The JVC does skin tones great 70% of the time, so-so 10% of the time, and downright questionable 20% of the time. Not sure about the latest JVC's though.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

IME, most of the contrast readings online are malarkey.

Agreed, we should just base our buying decisions on the specs wink.gif

"A wide screen just makes a bad film twice as bad. "
-Samuel Goldwyn

I wonder what he'd think about 3D IMAX?
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post #19 of 113 Old 02-05-2013, 02:17 PM
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The refurb Optoma hd8300 is the best DLP deal if you combine all measurements and reviews in the sub $2000 DLP market, problem is the 3D brightness is only 700-900 lumens before the glasses (let's say 800). It had been measured as high as 4,500:1 and I don't think ever lower than 2,000:1 NATIVE on/off. The Benq w7000 is 1100 lumens in 3D, and I don't know what the Benq w1070 is, I'm guessing 1200, but not sure.

The Epson is what, 1400 lumens in 3D before the glasses, all the other PJ's are sub-1000 lumens.

The Benq's deficiency compared to the Sharp and Optoma is obviously black levels, but given how you can ultra-tweak the IRIS, I think that ALMOST makes up for it when you consider that at best the Sharp and Optoma's black levels are likely only 2-3 notches better than the Benq, even with 1000:1 vs 2000:1, that is a big difference for space scenes, but it still isn't the sweet spot.

The sweet spot in Native On/off is 3000:1 to 5000:1 + the IRIS. Suddenly when you go from 3000:1 and higher things start looking a lot better, so I think maybe only the Optoma hd8300 gets to the sweet spot.
Though the JVC is still the much sweeter spot.


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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

The refurb Optoma hd8300 is the best DLP deal if you combine all measurements and reviews in the sub $2000 DLP market, problem is the 3D brightness is only 700-900 lumens before the glasses (let's say 800). The Benq w7000 is 1100, and I don't know what the Benq w1070 is, I'm guessing 1200, but not sure.

The Epson is what, 1400 lumens in 3D before the glasses, all the other PJ's are sub-1000 lumens.

And this is why I have not already purchased the Sharp.

"A wide screen just makes a bad film twice as bad. "
-Samuel Goldwyn

I wonder what he'd think about 3D IMAX?
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Keep in mind the DLP's are forcing 3:2 in 3D mode, so it wouldn't surprise me if the Sharp was doing this, the Benq definitely does it, but the Benq is saved by the FI.
The difficult calibration controls on the Sharp would also be a worry for me. Not so much on a new lamp, but as the lamp ages I despise not having full calibration ability.

Optoma hd8300 = Great Calibration and FULL CMS, Good Sharpness (maybe great), FI works in 3D mode, best black levels, DECENTLY bright 3D but NOT greatly bright

Sharp = Questionable calibration, Decent Sharpness, NO FI, UNKNOWN 3d brightness but should be similar to hd8300, good black levels

Benq = Excellent verified Sharpness, Very Mediocre Black levels but bearable after tweaking IRIS, FI in 3D, Brightest 3D image, Probably the best color post-calibrated

The Benq really does have exceptional color, cannot say that enough, it's incredible in a sense how accurate it looks post-calibration. It just seems the few errors it has are not as noticeable to the eye as other projectors, at least on my setup. If the BENQ had great blacks, man it would be a done deal for sure. Out of the 15+ projectors I've had and the 50+ I've seen, the Benq is now my new favorite on color accuracy.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

Keep in mind a lot of the DLP's are forcing 3:2 in 3D mode, so it wouldn't surprise me if the Sharp was doing this, the Benq definitely does it, but the Benq is saved by the FI.

What surprised me was reviews that stated it was doing 3:2 pulldown in 2D... Makes no sense.

"A wide screen just makes a bad film twice as bad. "
-Samuel Goldwyn

I wonder what he'd think about 3D IMAX?
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post #23 of 113 Old 02-05-2013, 03:08 PM
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I can live with 3:2 in 2D, sure it's not optimal but your eyes adjust. In 3D though, 3:2 without FI looks like tracer motion at times with drawn frames (it's very crazy looking). You know the mouse trailing effect you can enable in Windows, well in 3D mode without FI at 3:2 pulldown, the motion approaches that sort of effect at times (although not that bad, bad enough, but you get the idea).


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post #24 of 113 Old 02-05-2013, 03:21 PM
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My previous projector was the venerable Sharp 9000. I've had the the Sharp 30000 for several months now. So far I am quite pleased with the performance. It has the DLP sharpness and pop along with improved brightness and contrast. Mind you I am comparing it to the older 9000.
I checked out the specs on a number of projectors, but none fit my criteria (DLP, placement flexibility, etc.) as well as the Sharp. The 2D images are wonderful and there appear to be many adjustment options (many of which I have not tried out yet.)
Originally I was not very interested in the 3D performance, but I must admit I was surprised by how well the projector does in this regard. It came with two 3D glasses. I didn't have to do much to test it out. No discernible ghosting and it has options to set it to a higher brightness for 3D. Not a big fan of FI so I don't miss it. DI is quite transparent.

If you have any questions, fire away

Of course, now that 4K is on the horizon my eyes are starting to stray....

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post #25 of 113 Old 02-05-2013, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by anilrao View Post

My previous projector was the venerable Sharp 9000. I've had the the Sharp 30000 for several months now. So far I am quite pleased with the performance. It has the DLP sharpness and pop along with improved brightness and contrast. Mind you I am comparing it to the older 9000.
I checked out the specs on a number of projectors, but none fit my criteria (DLP, placement flexibility, etc.) as well as the Sharp. The 2D images are wonderful and there appear to be many adjustment options (many of which I have not tried out yet.)
Originally I was not very interested in the 3D performance, but I must admit I was surprised by how well the projector does in this regard. It came with two 3D glasses. I didn't have to do much to test it out. No discernible ghosting and it has options to set it to a higher brightness for 3D. Not a big fan of FI so I don't miss it. DI is quite transparent.

If you have any questions, fire away

Of course, now that 4K is on the horizon my eyes are starting to stray....

It really is good to hear from users, it sounds like SHARP fixed the big focus issues of the past then. As far as 3D goes, I am still worried about the motion, a lot of 3D does not have fast motion, but in some scenes it gets crazy looking with no FI.


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post #26 of 113 Old 02-05-2013, 03:48 PM
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What were the focus issues identified with the other Sharps? Perhaps my old eyes betray me?

Anil
" Too low they build, who build beneath the stars" Edward Young
http://emergentcomplexity.org/Anil_Rao_Scientific_Illustrations/Biology.html
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post #27 of 113 Old 02-05-2013, 03:49 PM
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Major focus uniformity issue, warped edges, variable differences on a per-unit basis. No way to get entire image in focus.


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post #28 of 113 Old 02-05-2013, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

Major focus uniformity issue, warped edges, variable differences on a per-unit basis. No way to get entire image in focus.

A lot that had to do with the fact that Sharp was taking business models and selling them as home theater models. The XV-Z17000 is a perfect example. I think they've learned their lesson.
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post #29 of 113 Old 02-06-2013, 01:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Wow, thanks, everybody. Wasn't expecting such feedback.
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

The Sony uses a plastic lens.
Ha! Touché! biggrin.gif It would be great if anilrao could evaluate Sharp's lens performance critically (sharpness, focus uniformity, chromatic abberations).
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Originally Posted by dougri View Post

No doubt the HC5 will have better native contrast than the Sharp, but that looks like a spec vs. a measured value. The native CR of the HC9000 is roughly 5k:1 (http://www.avsforum.com/t/1254103/new-mitsubishi-hc-9000-full-hd-3d-and-lcos-panels/270#post_20383589)...
Sorry, I can't let that pass. Why does people believe in bad things so easily? If you will read further Tom will explain that his first measurement was compromised by the LEDs which were illuminating his screen http://www.avsforum.com/t/1254103/new-mitsubishi-hc-9000-full-hd-3d-and-lcos-panels/270#post_20391135
20000:1 is a number confirmed by many trustworthy reviewers:
http://www.cine4home.de/ measured 19000:1 - 24000:1 based on setup
http://www.ixbt.com/dvd/mitsubishi-hc9000d.shtml#ansi measured 19000:1 - 33000:1 based on setup (last value is with iris half closed at -9, maximum throw distance)
http://www.audiovideohd.fr/tests/279-Mitsubishi-HC9000-5.html kraine measured 19333:1
and so on.

Contrast is one big plus which puts this projector above Sony HW50 for me.
http://www.cine4home.de/ measured 4000:1-6900:1 based on setup
http://www.ixbt.com/dvd/sony-vpl-hw50es.shtml#ansi measured 5600:1 - 12700:1 based on setup (last value is with iris fully closed, maximum throw distance)
http://www.audiovideohd.fr/tests/279-Mitsubishi-HC9000-5.html measured around 4600:1

These are measurement taken by the same people in the same setups so I think it's trustworthy.

JVC has even more contrast (30000:1 - 40000:1 for X30) but is has a lot of negatives which pull me out of choosing it: big input lag (80+ ms), worse motion resolution, even worse 3D, color problems, lamp brightness problems, yellow/magenta banding, spots etc. Of course I could assume there are units without such problems. But at that price point I wouldn't gamble it.

In all fairness, Sony HW50 has 30 ms input lag (the best among LCoS projectors), but HC5 is fairly close at 40 ms. 10 ms is not worth the trade for 20000:1 vs. 5000:1 contrast. While 40 ms is a good trade for 40000:1 vs. 20000:1 contrast when we compare it to JVC. I wouldn't be able to play on JVCs at all.

Re. the Optoma HD8300. It has an upward throw and less placement flexibility. Also where did you see such contrast ratios? I saw around 1500:1 somewhere. And the DI is reported to be quite useless.
Here: http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article/review-optoma-hd8300-3d-hd-projector?page=0,1
Quote:
Things weren’t as great when it came to contrast ratio. Without any electronic aids, the projector’s maximum light output was a rather paltry (by today’s standards) 12.9 ftL, and its black level was a fairly mediocre 0.0088 ftL. That adds up to a contrast ratio of 1,466:1. Enabling both the Image AI lamp mode and Cinema 2 iris mode increased this to 10,825:1, but as with all such enhancements, there were visible pulsing artifacts as it tracked the video.

All in all, I'm leaning towards HC5 more. I can see new HDMI 1.5 on the horizon and with it a 1080p60 3D projectors. Then I would probably buy a DLP and reap all other fruits such as 144 Hz 3D for 24 Hz content, better contrast ratios, better FI.
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post #30 of 113 Old 02-06-2013, 04:29 AM
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Sorry, but TomHuffman was proven wrong with his measurement in just the same thread.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1254103/new-mitsubishi-hc-9000-full-hd-3d-and-lcos-panels/270#post_20391135

Some LEDs in his livingroom probably spoiled the blacklevel. I mean he wrote that clamping the iris would let blacks go blacker rather that just have an effect on peak output. Well, that also certainly explains bad an odd results of the HW50 (mesured 2700:1).

Also the rumors about missing parts of the hc9000 are FUD based on a guess which became thruth by being cited in this thread. One should be carefull with that, some guy that wants an adwise might belief, that tha HC5 has only 5000:1 native CR and worse parts than the hc9000. In fact there is NO evidence for that.
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