The great debate. DLP, LCD, LED TV or projector. Any Recommendations? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 21 Old 02-12-2013, 10:28 PM - Thread Starter
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All right. I have beat myself damn near silly trying to figure out what I am going to do for a screen for my home theater when I finally move out in the next year. For the longest time I was set on getting a DLP based projector because I liked the overall image. But I recently bought a very cheap (~$250) 32" JVC LED TV to replace my old CRT for watching cable and I was surprised by the overall picture quality for such a cheap set, and when I began to compare a Blu-Ray on it and my optoma HD66 projector, I began to envy the overall picture quality of the JVC (after messing with the settings). This threw everything I had in my mind at the time out the window. As it stands, the only thing that my projector has on my new LED TV is shear size and slightly more accurate color representation in my opinion. But the LED TV blows the DLP projector out of the water in just about everything else, granted it is an older, cheaper, and heavily used projector.

As far as specs go, I have to have a few things:
1. Screen size of 90" to 150"
2. Great black levels/contrast. Dark scenes and "splotchy" blacks drive me crazy if the display isn't up for the task, so black levels/contrast is the most important to me.
3. Fairly accurate color reproduction and decent color saturation/depth
4. Price range below $6000, though I would be willing to go as far as $8000 if I found that one perfect display.
5. absolutely no "screen door effect" I had a very cheap LCD projector and I loathe SDE with a passion now
6. I would like to use the projector for gaming, so the less delay the better, but this isn't paramount. I'd be willing to buy a separate display strictly for gaming if need be, though I would like a "one size fits all" deal.

As far as the room goes, it is going to be a dedicated theater room. Most likely in the basement and it will definitely be light controlled. Size anywhere from 18'x18' to 35'x35' or anything in between. The size of the room depends on what is available in my area and what I can afford, but I will be buying the house based on whether it has a large enough basement/room to do the theater I want. That, and a covered garage.

After the countless hours of searching these as well as many other forums and reading up as much as I dare on the different technologies, I have found that either a DLP projector, Large Plasma, or large LED TV are my best bets. But, number 1 basically knocks out plasma screens because I don't think I have seen any past 65". Which leaves me with a DLP projector, LED projector (haven't looked into or seen much on these other than pico projectors), or a large LED TV.

If I do end up going with a DLP projector, I do need to get one with a faster/better color wheel than my HD66, which shouldn't be hard, but I can see the "rainbow effect" when I am looking for it and on some occasions when I am not. So I am not overly sensitive to RBE, but it is bothersome when I do see it.

So here are my questions, considering my criteria, what would any of you recommend? Do you have any specific models I could look into? Is there any technology that I have missed or left out that is within my price range?

Thanks in advance for any responses, and please feel free to ask questions. I know I often forget things.
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post #2 of 21 Old 02-13-2013, 12:15 AM
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First on the question of a large LED TV. If you ask me (and you are), buying a 90+" television is loony. Why deal with a cumbersome 150lbs+ electronic behemoth, when you can get an even bigger picture with a projector for way less money in a 20lbs package plus a 20lbs screen. I think you can get a Sharp 90" LED for $12,000. But why. Especially when 4K will be affordable in a couple years. The picture on the LED TV might be better, but I bet you'll enjoy a much more immersive, entertaining effect from a 120"+ screen with a projector.

My own projector experience is with a now-ancient Optoma HD72, and just recently, the Epson 5020UB and Panasonic PT-AE8000U. Both these projectors are in the $2.5k-$3k range, so maybe that's below where you're shooting for. But I can tell you that between the Epson and the Panasonic, the Panny is the hands-down winner if you care about SDE. The Epson's SDE reminded me of when Phantom Menace first came out in theaters with digital projection, and you were like, what are all those black lines? Panasonic's SmoothScreen technology or whatever they call it actually makes a pretty big difference.

If you're going above the 5020UB/AE8000U price point and spending $3-6k, my guess is you'll be pretty happy with the color/contrast performance of most of the projectors in that range. If I were going to spend up to $6k, I'd probably be looking at JVC and Sony, which use D-ILA/LCoS, a different technology from DLP or LCD that you should add to your list for consideration. I haven't seen those in person, though, so I can't speak to their SDE characteristics.

Finally, think about whether noise would be an issue for you. I didn't think about it at first, but when I tried the Epson I found it to be distractingly noisy, while the Panasonic was quite quiet. I didn't realize there would be that much variability between brands, but noise ended up being the deciding factor for me between two projectors with really good image quality.
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post #3 of 21 Old 02-13-2013, 05:27 AM
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The simplest answer is to demo a JVC, a Sony, an LED DLP and some TVs and see which one you prefer. Each technology has its pros and cons but you won't know which is most important to you until you see it in the flesh

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post #4 of 21 Old 02-13-2013, 06:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr47 View Post

All right. I have beat myself damn near silly trying to figure out what I am going to do for a screen for my home theater when I finally move out in the next year. For the longest time I was set on getting a DLP based projector because I liked the overall image. But I recently bought a very cheap (~$250) 32" JVC LED TV to replace my old CRT for watching cable and I was surprised by the overall picture quality for such a cheap set, and when I began to compare a Blu-Ray on it and my optoma HD66 projector, I began to envy the overall picture quality of the JVC (after messing with the settings). This threw everything I had in my mind at the time out the window. As it stands, the only thing that my projector has on my new LED TV is shear size and slightly more accurate color representation in my opinion. But the LED TV blows the DLP projector out of the water in just about everything else, granted it is an older, cheaper, and heavily used projector.

As far as specs go, I have to have a few things:
1. Screen size of 90" to 150"
2. Great black levels/contrast. Dark scenes and "splotchy" blacks drive me crazy if the display isn't up for the task, so black levels/contrast is the most important to me.
3. Fairly accurate color reproduction and decent color saturation/depth
4. Price range below $6000, though I would be willing to go as far as $8000 if I found that one perfect display.
5. absolutely no "screen door effect" I had a very cheap LCD projector and I loathe SDE with a passion now
6. I would like to use the projector for gaming, so the less delay the better, but this isn't paramount. I'd be willing to buy a separate display strictly for gaming if need be, though I would like a "one size fits all" deal.

As far as the room goes, it is going to be a dedicated theater room. Most likely in the basement and it will definitely be light controlled. Size anywhere from 18'x18' to 35'x35' or anything in between. The size of the room depends on what is available in my area and what I can afford, but I will be buying the house based on whether it has a large enough basement/room to do the theater I want. That, and a covered garage.

After the countless hours of searching these as well as many other forums and reading up as much as I dare on the different technologies, I have found that either a DLP projector, Large Plasma, or large LED TV are my best bets. But, number 1 basically knocks out plasma screens because I don't think I have seen any past 65". Which leaves me with a DLP projector, LED projector (haven't looked into or seen much on these other than pico projectors), or a large LED TV.

If I do end up going with a DLP projector, I do need to get one with a faster/better color wheel than my HD66, which shouldn't be hard, but I can see the "rainbow effect" when I am looking for it and on some occasions when I am not. So I am not overly sensitive to RBE, but it is bothersome when I do see it.

So here are my questions, considering my criteria, what would any of you recommend? Do you have any specific models I could look into? Is there any technology that I have missed or left out that is within my price range?

Thanks in advance for any responses, and please feel free to ask questions. I know I often forget things.

If seeing RBE at all, I would skip going with DLP. I have sent you a PM.

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post #5 of 21 Old 02-13-2013, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xank View Post

First on the question of a large LED TV. If you ask me (and you are), buying a 90+" television is loony. Why deal with a cumbersome 150lbs+ electronic behemoth, when you can get an even bigger picture with a projector for way less money in a 20lbs package plus a 20lbs screen. I think you can get a Sharp 90" LED for $12,000. But why. Especially when 4K will be affordable in a couple years. The picture on the LED TV might be better, but I bet you'll enjoy a much more immersive, entertaining effect from a 120"+ screen with a projector..

One reason for me is that I don't subscribe to cable or satellite. I only use OTA and XBMC for TV. I have used 3rd party tuners and they suck, but built in tuners are great. That being said, I would never spend 12K on a TV. Most projectors, if not all, don't have tuners and its limiting. Also, TV's are better in lighted rooms.

I'll do projectors for movies and movies only.

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post #6 of 21 Old 02-13-2013, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr47 View Post

As far as the room goes, it is going to be a dedicated theater room. Most likely in the basement and it will definitely be light controlled. Size anywhere from 18'x18' to 35'x35' or anything in between. The size of the room depends on what is available in my area and what I can afford, but I will be buying the house based on whether it has a large enough basement/room to do the theater I want. That, and a covered garage.

That sounds familiar, I skipped a lot of houses before mine because of lackluster garage and/or theater prospects biggrin.gif

First a few generalities:

There is no perfect display, if there were, this forum wouldn't exist.

If you've got complete light control and a "dedicated" theater, I would not even consider a "TV". Even 90" isn't big enough for a "theater" IMO (especially not if you're buying a house to support a theater).
Quote:
If I do end up going with a DLP projector, I do need to get one with a faster/better color wheel than my HD66, which shouldn't be hard, but I can see the "rainbow effect" when I am looking for it and on some occasions when I am not. So I am not overly sensitive to RBE, but it is bothersome when I do see it.

It sounds like you barely see RBE, I mean I think just about anyone can see it if they look for it. To do the usual "buy the one I got" plug, I'd try and demo a Runco LS5 if you can. I've it's pre-Runco twin the Planar 8150 which is just a wonderful machine. If you can find one of those killer deals on a LED DLP (like the Runco Q) then I think that might be your best bet.

Other than that I'd probably demo one of the JVCs or the Sony VW95 personally. JVCs always intrigue me, but I never come away impressed when I see them (which could well be the demo rooms I've seen them in). From what I gather the Sony is probably the best compromise between the benefits of a DLP and a JVC/DiLA.

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post #7 of 21 Old 02-13-2013, 10:40 AM
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Given your price range and your interest in gaming, the BenQ W7000 would seem like one for the short list.
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post #8 of 21 Old 02-13-2013, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by pgwalsh View Post

One reason for me is that I don't subscribe to cable or satellite. I only use OTA and XBMC for TV. I have used 3rd party tuners and they suck, but built in tuners are great. That being said, I would never spend 12K on a TV. Most projectors, if not all, don't have tuners and its limiting. Also, TV's are better in lighted rooms.

I'll do projectors for movies and movies only.

OTA, interesting. I wish I could dump my DirecTV subscription, but there are certain sporting events I can't live without that keep me hooked. That said I definitely also have 40-46" TV's in other rooms for other uses.
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post #9 of 21 Old 02-14-2013, 11:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Thank you all for the replies!
I figured an LED TV was pretty much out of the question, far to large and heavy to be worth hauling around. I am definitely going to stick with a projector. I will look into the ones that you have all suggested. I figure I have at least a year to do my research on what to get. I still lean towards a DLP projector because they tend to have better black levels/contrast than LCD. I'd like to think that if I got a projector with a faster color wheel, the RBE problem would be solved for me since I hardly see it now with an entry level DLP. How do Lcos projectors stack up to DLP when it come to contrast?

Looks like I have alot more research to do. I am always open for more suggestions. biggrin.gif

Thanks again,
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post #10 of 21 Old 02-15-2013, 10:17 AM
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Based on what you are saying I would highly recommend a Sony VW95. I have one, use it on Da Lite 110" Hi Power screen and thing rocks my world for gaming (fast response times) and does a very solid job on black levels (though certainly not as good as my Pioneer plasma). Good punch, more than bright enough... even at low room ambient light (though to get max effect you are going to want to darken room to near black).

The JVC's are also nice... from what I hear they have slightly slower response times (important for gaming) and I prefered the Sony picture. Both of them use version of LCOS technology which should help with any screen door/rainbow sensitivies you might have.


Rey

PS - The use of Hi Power screen depends on your setup options. Search forums or PM me if you need more color on that. I would expect contrast ratio would "appear" better on lower gain screen. Again there specific threads on this so i will leave it at that.
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post #11 of 21 Old 02-16-2013, 12:09 PM
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How bright is a 90-inch Sharp LED? Can any front projector and screen combination match its brightness?

How about contrast? Can any projector match its contrast?

At S12,000 a projector might indeed be a better value but 10 years from now China will be producing 90+ gigantic LCDs at not super high prices.

I'd like to see a projector/90inch LCD face-off. How would they compare in bright rooms--in bat caves--at what ambient light level would their performance be equal?

I think LCDs are a bad value because of viewing angle problems.

I think I would though like a Panasonic 85-inch plasma over any projector at 85 inches.

When you get aove 85-inches plasma prices are astronomical.
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post #12 of 21 Old 02-16-2013, 04:46 PM
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If you're able to correctly mount a projector (with variable iris options) for a high power screen, there really isn't many negatives to it. All it does is give you more brightness headroom..assuming you always sit in the center seat smile.gif. So I guess a "side point" would be to go with a HP screen if you can. I have a dalite 106" and an epson 6500ub. Well over a thousand hours later, and the picture is still plenty bright. I still have a carada 106 BW screen behind the dalite, but the picture is way too dim on that screen.

Just food for thought.
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post #13 of 21 Old 02-23-2013, 08:30 AM
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I think you can get a Sharp 90" LED for $12,000
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post #14 of 21 Old 02-25-2013, 06:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Well guys, after looking into things more and more, I am leaning towards the JVC X35. Mainly because black levels are.so important to me and JVC seems to have some of the best it would seem. I just need to do some juggling to see if I can afford to get one by the end of April if at all possible. I am getting a sizeable tax return so it is highly likely. smile.gif
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post #15 of 21 Old 02-25-2013, 10:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok so after even more reading, (starting to go cross eyed again) I am back up in the air. I keep looking at the JVC X35/RS45 and the epson 5010. Both are very similarly priced and seem to offer very close performance. Could anyone give me an idea on which would be better for me to get based on some of my criteria. I am thinking about getting one of these as a "in-between" projector to get me through the next 3 years until I have settled in my house and I can start seriously considering a high end ($10k+) projector.

Would you recommend the JVC or the Epson considering:
1. Black levels. As I have said, this is the most important to me, and as far as I can tell the JVC wins. (I am not a big fan of auto iris, but I can deal with them)
2. Noticeable input lag. From what I have read in the JVC, it tends to average around 100ms latency which is a little high if I even want to consider gaming on ti, but I have not read much on the epson.
3. Decent color reproduction. Again, this is not the most important factor to me because I am sure anything in this price range will beat out my current HD66.
4. Price below $3,500 (after going over finances and the like, I have decided I would rather get one sooner rather than later, and this was the number I found that I can afford)
5. I will be running a 1.2 gain 90" Da LIte screen for now until I move into my new house
6. Last thing, I would like to do 3D once and a while, but 2D performance is far more important to me.

I am always open to other suggestions! biggrin.gif I cant tell any of you how much you have helped me in the past few years in piecing my home theater together. smile.gif I did look into the Sony HW50 as well as the VW95, but they were a little expensive for me at the moment. Though the VW95 is a very good candidate!

Thanks again for all of the help guys!
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post #16 of 21 Old 02-26-2013, 10:21 AM
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I recently viewed a rs45 and epson 5010 at the same place on similar screens and made them run the same 2d content. To my eyes, the JVC threw a better, less noisy, more vivid picture. Surprisingly, the motion even looked better on the JVC but hard to know what motion settings each were running etc. A few years ago I demo'd an Epson 6500 in my theater and the image was similar to the 5010 I saw. Something with the fill rate on LCD, I prefer the lcos look. If 3d was going to be very important or sports with lots of ambient light then the very bright settings of the Epson and 3d handling seem to close the gap. Best is to get to some stores and demo for yourself. Also, get a hold of Mike at AVS and see what he can do for you on a new RS46.

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post #17 of 21 Old 02-26-2013, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr47 View Post

Ok so after even more reading, (starting to go cross eyed again) I am back up in the air. I keep looking at the JVC X35/RS45 and the epson 5010. Both are very similarly priced and seem to offer very close performance. Could anyone give me an idea on which would be better for me to get based on some of my criteria. I am thinking about getting one of these as a "in-between" projector to get me through the next 3 years until I have settled in my house and I can start seriously considering a high end ($10k+) projector.

Would you recommend the JVC or the Epson considering:
1. Black levels. As I have said, this is the most important to me, and as far as I can tell the JVC wins. (I am not a big fan of auto iris, but I can deal with them)
2. Noticeable input lag. From what I have read in the JVC, it tends to average around 100ms latency which is a little high if I even want to consider gaming on ti, but I have not read much on the epson.
3. Decent color reproduction. Again, this is not the most important factor to me because I am sure anything in this price range will beat out my current HD66.
4. Price below $3,500 (after going over finances and the like, I have decided I would rather get one sooner rather than later, and this was the number I found that I can afford)
5. I will be running a 1.2 gain 90" Da LIte screen for now until I move into my new house
6. Last thing, I would like to do 3D once and a while, but 2D performance is far more important to me.

I am always open to other suggestions! biggrin.gif I cant tell any of you how much you have helped me in the past few years in piecing my home theater together. smile.gif I did look into the Sony HW50 as well as the VW95, but they were a little expensive for me at the moment. Though the VW95 is a very good candidate!

Thanks again for all of the help guys!

Would reccomend the JVC over the Epson based on your needs if the lag isn't a deal breaker. Would also consider the HW50es thru AVS should be within your budget and have less lag.
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post #18 of 21 Old 02-26-2013, 02:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr47 View Post

Ok so after even more reading, (starting to go cross eyed again) I am back up in the air. I keep looking at the JVC X35/RS45 and the epson 5010. Both are very similarly priced and seem to offer very close performance. Could anyone give me an idea on which would be better for me to get based on some of my criteria. I am thinking about getting one of these as a "in-between" projector to get me through the next 3 years until I have settled in my house and I can start seriously considering a high end ($10k+) projector.

Would you recommend the JVC or the Epson considering:
1. Black levels. As I have said, this is the most important to me, and as far as I can tell the JVC wins. (I am not a big fan of auto iris, but I can deal with them)
2. Noticeable input lag. From what I have read in the JVC, it tends to average around 100ms latency which is a little high if I even want to consider gaming on ti, but I have not read much on the epson.
3. Decent color reproduction. Again, this is not the most important factor to me because I am sure anything in this price range will beat out my current HD66.
4. Price below $3,500 (after going over finances and the like, I have decided I would rather get one sooner rather than later, and this was the number I found that I can afford)
5. I will be running a 1.2 gain 90" Da LIte screen for now until I move into my new house
6. Last thing, I would like to do 3D once and a while, but 2D performance is far more important to me.

I am always open to other suggestions! biggrin.gif I cant tell any of you how much you have helped me in the past few years in piecing my home theater together. smile.gif I did look into the Sony HW50 as well as the VW95, but they were a little expensive for me at the moment. Though the VW95 is a very good candidate!

Thanks again for all of the help guys!

OK, so you dropped your price range from $6-8K down to under $3500. That's a huge difference. You don't need a light cannon for a 90" screen, but lumen output will become a factor to consider as you move up to a larger screen, ESPECIALLY a 150" screen. If you do end up getting a new screen at that size, I suggest a HiPower. If you really need the best lag times, go for a Sony. If not, then the new JVCs are your best bet based on your requirements with the best native blacks. I'd stay away from the last two generation JVCs (including x45) though because of lamp issues and poor 3D. If you can't afford a new JVC, go with the Epson 5010. It will give you decent blacks, very good 3D, a lot more light, and is well under your $3500 price point.

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post #19 of 21 Old 02-26-2013, 08:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Well I think I have made my decision then. I think I am going to stick with the JVC unless another projector proves itself worthy. 2D performance is more important to me at the moment. The whole reason I decided to drop my price range down was so that I could afford to get it now instead of having to wait. In the end I am not afraid to run a multiple Projector set up. I can still use my HD66 strictly for gaming if I need to and i can get the JVC for movies only. I already have a couple other choices for gaming displays right now that I am happy with, so movie performance is more important. I will have to get a hold of Mike and see what he can do. biggrin.gif

Thanks again for all the input guys. I would love to go out a view some of these projectors myself, but there is no place I can go short of making a 6 hour drive up to Chicago, and with my work/class schedule, that is out of the question.
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post #20 of 21 Old 02-28-2013, 04:19 PM
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If i were in your shoes i would also consider an LED front projector such as the Runco Q-750i or any of its clones; Right now there is a dealer advertising a mint-condition store-demo unit at Audiogon for only $6,3000.00 and considering its msrp of $15,000.00, i would call that a great buy, and remember that dealers with store-demo equipment for sale want to get rid of stock asap, so bargaining down prices is part of the "game".
I own a Runco Q-750D LED projector which is basically the same as the Q-750i but with a separate controller/input box and i can testify to its amazing picture, no rainbows as it does not use a color wheel, incredible colors due to LED chipsets from Luminus Devices, best-in-class ANSI contrast ratio + excellent ON/OFF contrast ratio, and, best of all, you can run it for hours every day without any concerns for lamp usage vs. pricing, lamp ageing and changes in picture calibration, lamps exploding inside unit, burnt LCD/LCOS microdisplays due to extreme internal heat, etc, etc.
Match it with a 1.3 gain screen no larger than 110" diagonal or so and i think you would be extremely impressed by its picture, and, contrary to what a lot of people think, you can purchase online the Luminus Devices PT-120 Phlatlight LED chipset trio (R/G/B) used in all these top-of-the-line LED projectors for less than $250 ! Although with an estimated lifetime anywhere from 30.000 to 100.000 hours, i doubt you'll ever need to purchase a replacement set.
If you consider the Audiogon deal, i suggest you move quickly and do your due-diligence first by contacting the dealer by phone or email, confirm its physical address and reputation, return policy in case of diffective upon arrival, etc, because for the past few times i bought items at Audiogon the site itself was useless and impossible to contact even by email, so be ready to deal primarily with the dealer.
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post #21 of 21 Old 03-15-2013, 11:00 PM - Thread Starter
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I would like to thank everyone again for the help. I ended up getting a JVC RS46 (thanks Mike!) and I am blown away by the picture! It is gorgeous! I honestly don't know if I would need anything better really, I am just floored by the image quality and my father is officially jealous! (let the AV war begin lol)
Here's just a quick pic of how the picture looks, unfortunately the camera on my phone just doesnt do it justice, but you can get a general idea! Picture is from the movie "Book of Eli" and this is the out of box settings with the exception of turning the iris down to -8.
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Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

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