Recommendations for 160' screen and 4k projector? - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 41 Old 02-25-2013, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

Plasmas are like 30+ fL OOTB most of the time (can be 50-100+ too), my projector in my setup is nowhere near that. It was 14 fL to 20 fL as it should be, this is not Plasma brightness. To maximize the Native on/off of a JVC, you must close the IRIS to -10 thru -15 or so, this is going to drop those lumens way way down. The numbers quoted in here are based on full IRIS OPEN numbers. Also, I have my projector at farthest throw to maximize contrast (not that it makes a huge difference), but this also further reduces brightness 20%+ or so. So we can take those default "closest throw" with IRIS at 0 and LAMP HIGH numbers and feed them to the birds.

You have to realize all combined JVC issues:

1) Due to LAMP HISTORY and cost, most are much more comfortable running it in LAMP LOW (called normal in JVC menu), rather than LAMP high
2) The JVC lamps (on older models) tend to dim MUCH faster than others
3) To maximize the on/off JVC contrast, you need the IRIS at -10 or even -15 (this about cuts your lumens in half)
4) Many of us have PJ's mounted near farthest throw losing another 20% to 30% of brightness
5) Few of us actually get 2.0+ gain out of the HP screen (most own 2.4 gain screen), but due to mounting location we only get 1.5 to 1.6 gain.

When you factor in all the above reasons, a HP screen hardly seems OVERLY Bright. Many of us will only have 20% of the stated lumens to work with at first, and we open the IRIS up as the lamp ages. The way people are talking about the HP screen in here assumes 2.0 gain, lamp high, IRIS 0, closest throw, with NO DIMMING. Most of us in here don't even set our stuff up anything like that, why would we if we are going for the best image.

If the JVC lamps dim much slower than in the past, then it changes the game. The main thing is why even buy a JVC if you are going to use it at IRIS 0, mise well get a Sony or something.

1.5 gain does not even look nearly as much brighter than 1.1 gain as you think (yes it looks brighter). People claiming JVC's are too torchy with the HP screen apparently never thought this through smile.gif

At 850 hours, my lamp is useless on a NON-HP screen at this point, and it is only 106". I will get about 8 fL calibrated lumens if I was lucky.

I have a 9' wide scope screen that is 0.85 gain. I have over 700 hours on the lamp (version 2 that came with the projector). My RS45 is in normal mode (low) and the iris is on -12. I do have an A-lens. My image is nice and bright. My room is pretty decent for light control. smile.gif

I have a 106" HP screen in my family room. I use low lamp from a Marantz VP-12S4. The Marantz probably only puts out 250 lumens in low lamp. Image is nice and bright on the HP. I need to throw my JVC on it and see how blinding it would be. smile.gif

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post #32 of 41 Old 02-25-2013, 08:03 PM
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I hear you, but with the IRIS at -15 on a new lamp with 1.5 gain, that's only 18.5 fL on a 106" screen at farthest throw (appox, so say 18-21). That's before dimming. Target should be 18-22 fL IMO on a new lamp, because -15 IRIS on lamp low is the ONLY setting that gives the highest black level. Even dropping the IRIS to -10 is still a loss in on/off, it may not be very visible, but it's the thought that counts.

I mean if someone is willing to pay triple to get 70,000:1 on/off instead of 35,000:1, I assume they'd at least be willing to work their setup to maximize the on/off in what they paid for.


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post #33 of 41 Old 02-25-2013, 09:02 PM
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SMPTE range for completely dark (light controlled) cinema is 12 to 16 fl. Anything above this is too bright or for environments lacking light control (this includes walls, ceilings that are not dark and reflect light).
Thus the correct target IMO is 12 to 16. Levels above this, you are getting away from the cinema experience.
However, it is all a mater of what your objective is and personal taste.
I for one, have an objective and preference for a cinema experience, which leads me towards 12 fl.
Others prefer living room experience and would take 30 fl if they could get it.
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post #34 of 41 Old 02-25-2013, 09:14 PM
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Yes, we all know what the standard states, but it does not account for lamp dimming. Lamps will DIM 10% to 20% sometiems even in 100-200 hours. Even lamps that people claim don't dim much, they still dim some in the beginning. Starting at 18-22 fL is 12-16 eventually (Soon enough). Being too dark is worse than being too bright, being too bright is correctable, being too dark is not.

If I setup my JVC RS-45 to do 12 fL in the beginning, I would be at 3.5 fL now at 900 hours on the lamp, nice smile.gif

Some people have measured lamps that don't dim much supposedly recently, but out of the about 15 projectors I've owned, I've always measured dimming on every single one. The last one I measured, an Epson 5010 had 20%+ dimming at 250 hours, and 30% to 35% dimming at 800. My RS-45 had 20%+ dimming at 300 hours, my Benq w7000 has 15% or so at 250 hours. If you started at 12 fL, you would be down to around 10 fL already and only going down from there.

Just because these lamps have gotten better doesn't mean they don't DIM anymore, I mean really...

Now waiting for someone to post their Sony measurement and tell me their brightness went up after 100 hours smile.gif
It's called meter / measurement error, every bulb i have EVER measured has lost at least 10% to 20% or more in the first 200 hours.


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post #35 of 41 Old 02-26-2013, 04:39 AM
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Let's put some numbers on it to get more concrete.

All measurements are taken from projectorreviews using data from the X55 and X95 reviews.

These are the inputs using X55 (=RS4810) data:

Brightness (mid zoom)
High lamp 712 lumens
Low lamp 451 lumens

Zoom effect (percentage of max brightness):
close throw 100%
mid throw 91.5%
long throw 76.5%

Iris effect
0 100%
-7 68.7%
-15 28.9%

Putting these in for a 150'' diagonal 1.78:1 screen at mid throw gives the following FtL table for a gain of 1.0, 2.0 and 2.4, respectively:


Considering high lamp sounds like a vacuum cleaner, that you will benefit from a higher contrast by clamping down the iris and that the brightness decreases with lamp age, the High Power screen is definitely not too bright for a 150'' screen if you want to follow the cinema recommendations of 12-16 FtL. In fact you would benefit from having even more gain if possible. The HP would just about be able to get you the recommended brightness at low lamp with a brand new lamp and fully open iris.
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post #36 of 41 Old 02-26-2013, 06:54 AM
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Let me give my personal experience of this situation. I use a 119in HP screen and its mounted 8in above my head and I'm getting around 2.1-2.2 gain. I'm had the RS55/X70 and RS48/X55 with this screen. The newer JVC that I just sold was the RS48/X55 and the brightness should be about the same. My Throw is 12.5ft and I like to have it at shortest throw to get more brightness and to close the iris to -15 to get the most contrast. On low lamp I got 300 lumens which was 15.8ftL and on high lamp I got 410 lumens which is 21.5ftL with 165 hours on the bulb. I find on dark movies, like Sinister that I needed lower lumens to get around 12ftL, but it was closed all the way down. However, on movies like Skyfall, 16ftL was perfect. So, for me 12ftL with dark movies and 15-16ftL for action movies are the best IMO.

So, taking cine4home numbers, if you take the RS66/X95 and closed the iris, you should get a little over 80,000:1 contrast at shortest thow. The lumens will of course be lower than my 12.5ft throw on a 120in screen, so you will need to mount it around 16ft for the 159in HP screen. If you mount it 6in above your head you will get 2.2 gain Just a guess, it will be 350-375 lumens on high lamp with the iris closed, which gives you 10-11ftL. Which is doable in an all black light control room. At mid zoom at shortest throw, the contrast comes down to around 50000:1 with 450-475 lumens on high lamp. Which gives you 13-14ftL. With the iris open shortest throw, the contrast is around 35000:1, with 850-900 lumens on high lamp and gives you 25-26ftL.

Not perfect but gives you an ideal of what to expect if you do make the jump. The flagship model give you better contrast so you can open the iris up more, rather than the lower models, where you need to keep the iris closed or less than -10
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post #37 of 41 Old 02-26-2013, 08:26 AM
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This is a pic of my Sony VW85 with 1200 hrs on the bulb, in high lamp mode. Its rated at 800 lumens but I measure full white at only 62 lux (someone might be able to work out FL) The screen is 132" cinemascope 1.0 gain using zoom method so I'm effectively shooting about 140" actual 16:9 size. Even with moderate ambient lighting, I get a good image despite the relatively low brightness. It obviously looks better with the lights out and when the room is dark, the screen isn't brighter but I certainly perceive it brighter due to everything else being dark. I'm about 1/2 way towards a bat cave.



This is my JVC X90 (RS65) with brand new bulb in normal lamp mode (iris wide open) but with 150w of ambient lights on. I wouldn't watch a movie like this but its ok for a football game or animation flick, especially when ambient light is reduced a little.


Once the lights go out, I can bring the iris back to improve the contrast and get a great image - effectively shooting 140" remember.

IMO, if I can shoot 140" from RS65 with the iris pulled back, then its possible to shoot 160" with iris opened up a bit more. Hopefully these pics help the OP as some of the chat in the thread is a bit bewildering for a newbie to understand. The only caveat is that you lose some of the deep contrast benefit by opening the iris. Despite that, its still worthwhile investing in an e-shift JVC as the benfits are clear to me at my screen size and seating distance.

I find a relatively low brightness easier on the eye than the brighter projectors. I find that with a high brightness projector, when it moves from a dark scene to a bright scene it makes my eyes hurt!

I set my JVC up to give me around 60-70 lux off the screen so I know I watch below the recommended settings but thats the way I like it. Obviously this isn't in line with the majority on here but hopefully my view is of some use to the OP when weighing up what to do.
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post #38 of 41 Old 02-26-2013, 09:20 AM
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Your Sony at 62 lux on a 140in screen is 335 lumens and 5.7ftL and 70 lux on the same screen is 378 lumens and 6.5ftL.
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post #39 of 41 Old 02-26-2013, 09:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Guys, thanks for all the detailed responses. So much info and terminology I'm going to have to do quite a bit of googling to discern what all this means. I was told by quite a few people that it would be too dim and they actually recommended I get an epson 6010 w the anamorphic(sp?) lens. It's a cheap projector that supposedly awesome in quality and brightness which is the route I might go. Any thoughts on this option for a beginner?
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post #40 of 41 Old 03-03-2013, 10:40 PM
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If you are looking for somehing in the "low cost" category, I would still recommend that you look into the Sony 50es. It is one really bright projector and I have seen it have no problem with a 180" screen. I would not spend money on an anamorphic lens in this cost category of projectors. I would consider it for a high end projector that is equiped with a top quality lens.

I love my Sky HD!!!
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post #41 of 41 Old 03-03-2013, 10:47 PM
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In case my previous message confused you a bit, an anamorphic lens is an external lens that is placed in front of your projector's lens and performs an anamorphic stretch to the image, so that you can have a 2.35 aspect scope image with no loss in resolution. They are however fairly expensive. I am not sure if you were reffering to that or an "anamorphic" zoom that the Epson can perform via its own lens. If it is the latter, it is simply a zoom technique and you are not using your panel's full 1080 resolution for 2.35 scope movies.

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