What Mits. Projector should i buy? Mitsubishi HC9000 / HC5 / HC8000 / HC7900 / HC7800 - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 28 Old 03-06-2013, 02:14 PM - Thread Starter
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What is the best choice. Does anyone seen those pjs alive?
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post #2 of 28 Old 03-06-2013, 03:16 PM
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I have the HC8000. I have seen the HC7800 as well. Dont get the HC7800 it has a few problems that the 7900 and 8000 have sorted out. The 7900 has the same quality as the 8000, just not quite as good blacks.
You just need to decide if you want DLP or SXRD panels. The DLPs have a little bit more natural depth to the image in bright scenes, and will have perfect sharpness on every unit, whereas you rarely get a perfectly sharp hc5 or hc9000 unless you can demo your unit first.

The Mitsi SXRD projectors have better motion than the Mitsi DLPs though. on a motion test pattern the 720 and 1080 resolution start blurring during motion. (I think this is confirmed on most dlps. W7000 for example it does the same thing)

You should check both types of projectors out yourself to see what you prefer. I like the dlps better because they seem a bit more natural to me. I also like the sharpness.
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post #3 of 28 Old 03-08-2013, 11:56 AM
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I've seen the HC7800, -7900, -8000, and -9000D, but not the -5. I purchased the HC9000D after the -7900 and -8000 came out, so I made a deliberate purchase for what I perceived as the best one.

I agree with gbickle that the HC7800 should be avoided. It had a lot of promise, but the implementation was weak. As for the HC7900, it's a bit better, but I just don't like having a white projector sticking out like a sore thumb in my HT. The HC8000 is a better all around performer than either of them.

Where our opinions will diverge is in the final recommendation, which for me was HC9000D all the way. At this juncture. some guys would start throwing around hyperbole like "X just totally blew Y away!!" The HC9000D didn't blow the HC8000 away; it was just better, in some cases much better, than the HC8000. I'll give three examples.
  1. As gbickle already mentioned, motion blur was an annoyance for me on the HC8000.
  2. Rainbows are sometimes a problem for me, and a couple of times I seemed to catch a sparkle out of the corner of my eye. Real or imagined, it's still a distracting problem. No rainbows ever on the HC9000D for obvious reasons.
  3. The colors, contrast, and film-like quality of the HC9000D were very impressive right out of the box and were amazing after calibration. The HC800 appeared somewhat sharper, but not in a way that I appreciated. Perhaps I was lucky, but the sharpness on the demo HC9000D I saw was just great, and so is the unit I bought.

Having said that, I would have gotten the HC8000 with little reservation if the HC9000D were not still available at the time and the HC5 had not yet come out. I think it's a solid choice.

What I can afford, when I can afford it...
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post #4 of 28 Old 03-08-2013, 02:17 PM
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Now all this motion blur stuff reports for DLP is unsettling. And here I thought all DLPs have similar great motion resolution. I saw bad motion blur on BenQ W7000 myself, and now HC8000. Seegs has told me that his Marantz VP11-S1 projector has no motion blur (full 1080 lines of resolution) so I went ahead and believed it's a natural quality of all DLPs. I chose Sharp XV-Z30000 over HC9000/HC5 because I believed so. Now if it won't be the case when my Sharp'll arrive I'll be chasing Seegs in his dreams for quite some time. biggrin.gif
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post #5 of 28 Old 03-08-2013, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Elix View Post

Now all this motion blur stuff reports for DLP is unsettling. And here I thought all DLPs have similar great motion resolution. I saw bad motion blur on BenQ W7000 myself, and now HC8000. Seegs has told me that his Marantz VP11-S1 projector has no motion blur (full 1080 lines of resolution) so I went ahead and believed it's a natural quality of all DLPs. I chose Sharp XV-Z30000 over HC9000/HC5 because I believed so. Now if it won't be the case when my Sharp'll arrive I'll be chasing Seegs in his dreams for quite some time. biggrin.gif

It be interesting to see if your Sharp xv-z30000 blurs fine details during movement. Not sure if its related to the DC3 chip or what. When setting the HC8000 to 6X colour wheel speed it still blurs.
You need a moving test pattern with 1080p and 720p resolution on it to see if the structure breaks up at all during panning.
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post #6 of 28 Old 03-08-2013, 03:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elix View Post

Now all this motion blur stuff reports for DLP is unsettling. And here I thought all DLPs have similar great motion resolution. I saw bad motion blur on BenQ W7000 myself, and now HC8000. Seegs has told me that his Marantz VP11-S1 projector has no motion blur (full 1080 lines of resolution) so I went ahead and believed it's a natural quality of all DLPs. I chose Sharp XV-Z30000 over HC9000/HC5 because I believed so. Now if it won't be the case when my Sharp'll arrive I'll be chasing Seegs in his dreams for quite some time. biggrin.gif

That test is dependent on a couple things. DLP chips should all handle motion relatively the same natively, especially the newer 1080p chips. Motion is then effected by processing. My Marantz is a relatively straight forward affair when it comes to processing compared to all the bells and whistles these newer projectors offer. On top of that the Marantz uses a very high quality Gennum processor. Other things factor into that resolution test like lens quality, CA.and how smooth your screen material is. I also think the larger DMD comes into play here. Optically its a lot easier to resolve the finer detail with the larger DLP chip. The combination of the smaller DMD and lower lens quality never helps.

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post #7 of 28 Old 03-09-2013, 06:32 AM
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Coderguy, everything you wrote I agree with thus I can say I can tell a difference between source judder and motion blur. I have a pretty good frame of reference - a CRT motion - which have almost no motion blur. I saw W7000 on 1080i30 test pattern and found it to have pretty awful motion blur. You can run this test yourself: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1387638/why-is-motion-smoother-on-my-old-720p-projector#post_21534659 (test2).
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post #8 of 28 Old 03-09-2013, 06:43 AM
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Coderguy I'm talking about that test specifically. It's designed to have basically zero motion "blur" and "judder". The test is to see how well a display or projector handles motion and more specifically how much motion resolution your display is capable of. Without any motion problems in the source, the amount of blur and judder you see is 100% dependent on your display/projector and the processing happening. If you take a look at the test the lines as you move up in resolution become quite close to each other and once the motion starts they become harder and harder to tell apart. This is where sharpness does come into play. The easier it it to tell the lines apart before the motion begins the easier they should be to tell apart when the motion starts, granted your display handles motion properly. Motion handling and sharpness need to work together to be able to tell the lines apart when the motion is on during that test. Your screen can become a factor as well. If it has a lot of texture, it becomes harder to tell those lines apart during motion which is why, ideally, you'd want the smoothest surface to do that test on.

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post #9 of 28 Old 03-09-2013, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

Perhaps they are seeing judder and not blur, otherwise it's most likely caused by a sensitivity to DLP rainbows (or almost seeing rainbows). Hence some people complain about DLP motion because they see color breakup during motion (it's rare) even when they don't fully notice RBE. It could also be because some people have gotten used to 5:5 pulldown on LCOS/LCD then compare it to a DLP that might not even be doing 24p correctly, or doing 3:2 pulldown which looks choppy. Some DLP's are doing 5:5 pulldown, but some also are finicky about what settings trigger it or don't do it at all.

Any of the newer DLP's like the hc8000 should not have motion blur. The lens does not affect this issue, that is reaching, hence motion blur has little to nothing to do with the lens. Motion blur is the result of when pixels on the screen begin to move, multiple pixels do not refresh fast enough so the object in motion becomes blurry during movement. Another thing that can create the perception of motion blur, is too few frames filmed in the native source (like 24p) during fast movement. The first example is known as a drop in resolution during motion (hence we call it motion resolution). It is not from convergence or sharpness, it is separate because motion blur is only digestable by the eyes when in comparison to the most "in-focus" still shot on the same projector, that is why sharpness has no effect.

I seriously doubt this assessment (no offense guys), hence DLP looking blurry vs. LCOS looking smooth. LCOS has the most motion blur of the three techs in general. More likely

I don't notice any motion blur on the Benq unless watching 24p movie, but that is intrinsic in the source and could appear exaggerated at times if watching vs. an LCD like the Epson which does things a bit different. If you want to compare motion blur, use 60hz content. You just need to watch a docu-bluray or a TV show instead of movies to get rid of it smile.gif

Its actually blurring (or loss) of fine detail during movement. If you download from here http://disk.yandex.com/public/?hash=jCpwRdU3yptXrk2QT1KrRgJ241RC9IR5CnZRjPwkDjw%3D
As it pans across you will see the vertical lines in the 720 and 1080 pattern stop becoming individual discernible lines, and all blur together. So during a movie you wont actually notice blurring as such. Just a loss of detail during movement which a lot of people dont notice anyway.

As a comparison on my $500 LG LCD TV the 720 lines are still discernible during panning, but the 1080 ones aren't.
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post #10 of 28 Old 03-09-2013, 05:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

The test is to see how well a display or projector handles motion and more specifically how much motion resolution your display is capable of. Without any motion problems in the source, the amount of blur and judder you see is 100% dependent on your display/projector and the processing happening.

But the motion blur being spoke about here is really the difference between a still image and a moving image on the same device (i.e. motion resolution).In the end, everything can affect perception to some degree, but it's not a primary cause unless we are talking a really poor lens.

@gBickle
Are you talking 3D?
I am speaking of 2D.

I ran the test1.mp4 on my JVC, lots of blur during the PAN. I will do the Benq next.



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post #11 of 28 Old 03-09-2013, 07:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

But the motion blur being spoke about here is really the difference between a still image and a moving image on the same device (i.e. motion resolution).In the end, everything can affect perception to some degree, but it's not a primary cause unless we are talking a really poor lens.

@gBickle
Are you talking 3D?
I am speaking of 2D.

I ran the test1.mp4 on my JVC, lots of blur during the PAN. I will do the Benq next.

coderguy... im talking 2D ... on the hc8000 those 720 lines and 1080 lines become a blur during panning. I assume the Benq will do the same
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post #12 of 28 Old 03-10-2013, 01:19 AM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

I ran the test1.mp4 on my JVC, lots of blur during the PAN. I will do the Benq next.
Do test2.mp4 on BenQ. It's better in that regard that you can measure performance numerically.
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post #13 of 28 Old 03-15-2013, 05:45 PM
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I take back what I said about motion resolution being better on the SXRD's than the DLPs. They are all pretty much the same. Here are some results

Sony VW1000ES === 300 lines === 650 with motion flow
- Sony HW50 === 300 lines === 600 with film motion
- JVC X55r === 300 lines === 600 with motion interpolation
- Panasonic AT6000 ==350 lines === 600 with frame creation
- Epson TW9100 =====250-300 lines === 600 with motion on
-Samsung PS64D8000 Plasma TV ==900 lines
- Pansonic P65VT50 Plasma TV ==1080 lines
- Most LCD TV's === 250 - 400 lines
- W7000, HC8000 === around 400 lines? ...
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post #14 of 28 Old 03-16-2013, 12:18 AM
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Originally Posted by gbickle View Post

I take back what I said about motion resolution being better on the SXRD's than the DLPs. They are all pretty much the same. Here are some results

Sony VW1000ES === 300 lines === 650 with motion flow
- Sony HW50 === 300 lines === 600 with film motion
- JVC X55r === 300 lines === 600 with motion interpolation
- Panasonic AT6000 ==350 lines === 600 with frame creation
- Epson TW9100 =====250-300 lines === 600 with motion on
-Samsung PS64D8000 Plasma TV ==900 lines
- Pansonic P65VT50 Plasma TV ==1080 lines
- Most LCD TV's === 250 - 400 lines
- W7000, HC8000 === around 400 lines? ...
You tested it personally? Wow, that is sad. I hope my new Sharp XV-Z30000 will have better motion portrayal.
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post #15 of 28 Old 03-16-2013, 02:32 AM
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I finally ran Test 2 on the w7000. Either the test is faulty or my Media player is acting up with the Benq, because if I start to say where the lines went bad, it would be in the 250 line range for the Benq, but I am suspicious. I'd need to run the test on several PJ's with the same HTPC to be sure.



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post #16 of 28 Old 03-16-2013, 02:32 AM
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I was going to run Test2 as well, just don't feel like installing the added spyware at the moment smile.gif
I might have to...

there is no spyware if you click on the right links... all the big download now buttons redirect to spyware pages... but if you click the non obvious download button it will download just the mp4 and nothing else
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post #17 of 28 Old 03-16-2013, 02:33 AM
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You quoted me right before I re-posted my edited version, I know I just saw that smile.gif

The Benq is at 300 at best on my HTPC.



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post #18 of 28 Old 03-16-2013, 02:35 AM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

I finally ran Test 2 on the w7000. Either the test is faulty or my Media player is acting up with the Benq, because if I start to say where the lines went bad, it would be in the 150-250 line range for the Benq, but I am suspicious. I'd need to run the test on several PJ's with the same HTPC to be sure.

yeh i found the best result was given running it with vlc player, then choosing deinterlace on, and yadif 2x mode ..
The HC8000 i found will do up to 600 lines and with frame rate conversion turned on you can see up to 900 or so .. 1080 you can just make out but begins to blur a bit
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post #19 of 28 Old 03-16-2013, 02:39 AM
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You tested it personally? Wow, that is sad. I hope my new Sharp XV-Z30000 will have better motion portrayal.

the motion resolution results are from http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/ they do a motion resolution test on all their reviews.

I have done a thorough test on the hc8000 with VLC player (deinterlacing on, and deinterlacing mode yadif 2x) and it resolves 600 lines ... with frame rate conversion on you can actually see above 600 but not as crisply and all the way up to 900 and just make out the 1080 lines
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post #20 of 28 Old 03-16-2013, 02:42 AM
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yeh i found the best result was given running it with vlc player, then choosing deinterlace on, and yadif 2x mode ..

Ran it in both VLC and Media Player, about 300 max, and by 350 it's pretty much completely blurred at the lines.



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post #21 of 28 Old 03-16-2013, 02:50 AM
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Ran it in both VLC and Media Player, about 300 max, and by 350 it's pretty much completely blurred at the lines.

given that then id say the hc8000 has better motion resolution than the w7000. I can definitely make out 600 before it blurs. on hdtvtest.co.uk most of their projector reviews seem to have 300 lines of motion resolution so that sounds like par for the course. Even the Sony vw1000es.
I guess the HC8000 isnt bad then at 600 lines.
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post #22 of 28 Old 03-16-2013, 02:53 AM
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Let's see if we are perceiving it the same I wonder, I can still discern that there are lines between 300-600, it's just after 300 it looks like a blurry candy cane. Before 300 the lines look distinct and only slightly blurred. After 600 it looks almost like a solid line, or real close to it. So I'm not sure if I'd call that 300 or maybe 550, I guess 300 smile.gif



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post #23 of 28 Old 03-16-2013, 03:01 AM
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Let's see if we are perceiving it the same I wonder, I can still discern that there are lines between 300-600, it's just after 300 it looks like a blurry candy cane. Before 300 the lines look distinct and only slightly blurred. After 600 it looks almost like a solid line, or real close to it. So I'm not sure if I'd call that 300 or maybe 550, I guess 300 smile.gif

up to 500 the 4 lines remain the same shape whether pausing or playing... at 600 lines you can still clearly make out the 4 lines but starting to blur a bit and you can see the difference clearly when pausing and playing again. So maybe the way you are judging it 450 to 500 lines?
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post #24 of 28 Old 03-16-2013, 03:04 AM
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For very close to the same shape, 250-300 lines of resolution paused vs. moving. 300-600 can tell but it's a candy cane. So I think 300 max for the w7000, at least on this test.



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post #25 of 28 Old 03-16-2013, 03:31 AM
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Yep, pretty much. I saw Mitsubishi HC9000 and BenQ W7000 and they both resulted in around 400 lines... Now Seegs is an exception here, with his Marantz VP11S1 portraying 1080 lines of resolution. And the rest DLP having less than 1080 lines as a rule.
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post #26 of 28 Old 03-16-2013, 03:38 AM
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Well, I have some additional results to report on the w7000 between that test pattern and a PC game panning. I loaded up X3: Albion Prelude (Terran Conflict) and this game has some VERY detailed planets with VERY detailed clouds."

When moving back and forth on a PAN, the planet does not blur noticeably at a fairly SLOW speed, and the details are very high. As I start to increase the panning speed, the blur increases. I think the Video test above is only showing up what happens when all pixels are panning at the same time at a semi-fast speed with somewhat high contrast, it is not showing us what the resolution is on slower moving objects. It's been known for a while that some projectors have MORE motion issues on a horizontal pan than during any other test.

So we're not actually losing all that resolution on ANY motion, it's just at certain speeds it's lost. Still it does kind of stink a little smile.gif

It also appears that less contrasty objects do not blur QUITE as much, I think it is a bug with the processing of the edge contrast during motion because of a lack of RTS (real-time system) processing, otherwise known as vid-CPU lag.

FI or sharpness controls on the Benq does not appear to effect (or improve) the motion in my X3 Planet Panning Test to any significant degree, maybe a little.



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for both one projector or dual stacks

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post #27 of 28 Old 03-16-2013, 05:11 AM
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Your thinking is correct. This test measures motion resolution only for specific speed (pixels per frame) and contrast. But as long as we state the results using this same test on different display devices the comparison will remain valid. Given the one who runs the test knows what he's doing.
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post #28 of 28 Old 03-16-2013, 11:23 AM
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What about the Mits NF32U? It's not out until July, but it sports LED/Laser Hybrid technology, 1080p, 3000ANSI, 3D ready, and 20,000hr duty cycle....in the $2K price range.
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Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

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