motion judder/motion blur with highly rated LCD & LCos projectors - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 39 Old 03-13-2013, 10:24 AM - Thread Starter
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I am new to the forum but not new to home theater projectors; I built a custom home theater in my basement in 2006 and have had the same Optoma dlp projector until recently. After installing a new lamp in my 6-year old Optoma HD7100 dlp projector, less than 2 hours later I could hear the lamp blow up and after replacing the lamp the projector would not power up. After getting it looked at I was informed the power supply & ballister are no good and need to be replaced. The HD7100 has been discontinued and Optoma no longer has parts for this model so this has basically become a $2,600 throw-a-way projector. I must say that I was not impressed with Optoma's service center/customer support regarding this matter after trying to get parts and a solution to my problem. I'm still at loss as to how a power supply & ballister can suddely fail less than 2 hours after installing a new lamp. In any event, I moved on and purchased an inexpensive LCD projector, the Epson Home Cinema 8350. After using it for a couple weeks I returned it for a refund because there was significant motion judder/motion blur and occasional screen door effect. I upgraded to the highly rated Epson Home Cinema 5020, another 3LCD projector, and still had motion judder/motion blur and some screen door effect; I returned this projector. Then I upgraded to the highly rated Sony VPL-HW50ES, a LCos projector, and still had motion judder/motion blur but no screen door effect. The motion judder on these projectors was frequent on high definition television when watching sports such as golf, basketball, baseball, ice hockey etc. The Epson projectors had both motion judder & screen door effect. The Sony did not have screen door effect but the motion judder/blur may have even been slightly worse on the Sony vs. the Epson. Overall, the Sony VPL-HW50ES was definately the better projector in my opinion over the Epson Home Cinema 5020. The Sony was very quiet, if not dead silent with spectacular color and greater sharpness, particularly with the Reality Creation sharpness enhancer; also, the Sony's dynamic iris was smooth, silent & unnoticeable. The Epson had good color, not quite as good as the Sony. However, the Epson was very loud, especially at full lamp power and the dynamic iris was loud and very noticeable. As far as motion judder/blur, these LCD & LCos projectors performed very well with no issues on Blu-ray DVD but the motion judder/blur was so significant and prominent on HD sports content (Charter Cable HD TV) that it was an absolute deal breaker for me and I ultimately returned the Sony projector as well. The creative frame interpolation (CFI) on the Epson & Sony do help minimize motion judder/blur but certainly do not eliminate it. With CFI engaged it introduces other unnatural motion artifacts often referred to as amateur video/soap opera effect, which is not desireable to me. Thus, I'm convinced that LCD & LCos technologies are indeed inferior to dlp when it comes to motion judder/motion blur because I never experienced motion judder with my 6-year old Optoma HD7100 dlp projector, especially when it comes to HD television sport viewing. Keep in mind that I probably watch 75% HD sports in my theater and only 25% blu-ray movies. In fairness, the LCos Sony VPL-HW50ES is an excellent overall projector, particulary on 2D movies & blu-ray content; The Sony does produce a spectacular image with the blu-ray movies I watched on it but with my type of viewing content being mainly HD TV sports, I could not live with the motion judder on the Sony and returned this projector as well. At this point I'm not really into 3D... I really just want good color with a sharp, crisp 2D image and now I know that dlp is the way to go for me because in my experience dlp technology is in fact superior in sharpness & motion over LCD & LCos technologies. I did not even try the 3D on the Epson or the Sony because 3D would be less than 5% of my viewing and it's not important to me right now. Needless to say, I'm going back to dlp and did research on some dlp projectors including the Optoma HD8600, HD8300 & HD8200. I also considered the Mitsubishi HC7900 & HC8000, the BenqW7000, Vivitek H5085 and the Sharp XV-Z30000. I ultimately chose the Sharp XV-Z30000 despite it not having CFI because I prefer it not engaged anyway. My old Optoma HD7100 dlp did not have CFI and I never experienced motion judder with the Optoma so I'm hopeful that I get the same motion judder-free image with the Sharp dlp as well. The Sharp XV-Z30000 is suppose to arrive within the next day or two so I will update my viewing results once I've seen the Sharp in action. Any addtional thoughts, comments or experiences are certainly welcome.





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post #2 of 39 Old 03-13-2013, 10:50 AM
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I often complain about this and it's the main reason I can't own a JVC projector. It bothers the hell out of me. I've gone through three different JVC models and while they're getting better they're are no where close to where DLP is when it comes to motion.

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post #3 of 39 Old 03-13-2013, 11:53 AM
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@dimatime

Please take this in the way it was intended: Please use paragraphs when composing a post. You will most likely get a better response because the text will be significantly easier to read.

When a post is one very long paragraph, having no white space, the chances are slim many (at least those of us north of 59) will actually read it because it is very hard on the eyes.

Thanks,

Willie
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post #4 of 39 Old 03-13-2013, 04:01 PM
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+1 to what Willie said.

I have not seen a Dlp projector so I can't really provide much valuable input however I'm really glad you raised the questions and i'm looking forward to your review of the XV-Z30000.


I'm surprise you saw that much motion judder/blur especially on the Sony. I have the Epson 5010 and I rarely encouter these issues (but I only watch blurays). In many cases the judder is cased by my network streaming speed/ media player settings or other causes that I'm still trying to figure out because at times (rarely though) I see non or more judder on the same scene.
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post #5 of 39 Old 03-13-2013, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willie View Post

@dimatime

Please take this in the way it was intended: Please use paragraphs when composing a post. You will most likely get a better response because the text will be significantly easier to read.

When a post is one very long paragraph, having no white space, the chances are slim many (at least those of us north of 59) will actually read it because it is very hard on the eyes.

Thanks,

Willie

Same goes for some of us south of 59. smile.gif

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post #6 of 39 Old 03-13-2013, 11:55 PM
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I ordered Sharp XV-Z30000 too and hope it'll have 1080 lines of motion resolution. It's a good thing you didn't choose BenQ W7000 because it has motion blur which corresponds to 480 lines of motion resolution I measured on this projector. At least with Sharp we still have hope because no one has tested motion resolution on it.
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post #7 of 39 Old 03-15-2013, 05:39 PM
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Right ok good luck but i reckon it will have low motion resolution. For your info here are some results

- Sony VW1000ES === 300 lines === 650 with motion flow
- Sony HW50 === 300 lines === 600 with film motion
- JVC X55r === 300 lines === 600 with motion interpolation
- Panasonic AT6000 ==350 lines === 600 with frame creation
- Epson TW9100 =====250-300 lines === 600 with motion on
-Samsung PS64D8000 Plasma TV ==900 lines
- Pansonic P65VT50 Plasma TV ==1080 lines
- Most LCD TV's === 250 - 400 lines
- W7000, HC8000 === around 400 lines? ... I suspect Sharp will be similar

Anybody know of any projectors that are confirmed to have motion resolution near the new plasma TVs?
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post #8 of 39 Old 03-16-2013, 12:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gbickle View Post

- W7000, HC8000 === around 400 lines? ... I suspect Sharp will be similar
You meanie.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gbickle View Post

Anybody know of any projectors that are confirmed to have motion resolution near the new plasma TVs?
Seegs108 reported 1080 lines on his Marantz VP11S1 DLP.
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post #9 of 39 Old 03-16-2013, 02:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Elix View Post

You meanie.
Seegs108 reported 1080 lines on his Marantz VP11S1 DLP.
\\

I have done a thorough test on the hc8000 with VLC player (deinterlacing on, and deinterlacing mode yadif 2x) and it resolves 600 lines ... with frame rate conversion on you can actually see above 600 but not as crisply and all the way up to 900 and just make out the 1080 lines
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post #10 of 39 Old 03-17-2013, 06:59 PM - Thread Starter
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I received the Sharp XV-Z30000 projector and have a little over 20 hours viewing time on it over the last few days. My intial impressions are that I made the right choice based mainly on 2D HDTV (Charter Cable TV) viewing of sports. I watched plenty of golf, basketball, ice hockey and some baseball and did not see any motion judder whatsoever. I also watched a couple of blu-ray movies (James Bond Skyfall & Star Trek) and they looked absolutely fantastic on the Sharp. No doubt the Sharp is a great well-rounded projector. I have clearly made the right choice based on my viewing preferences because I have not seen one single episode of motion judder on the Sharp. With the Sony VPL-HW50ES (LCos) I saw frequent motion judder with 2D HDTV sports. With the Epson 5020 (3LCD) I also saw frequent motion judder and occasional screen door effect. Wth this Sharp there's no other motion artifacts (judder, blur, rainbows); the processing on the Sharp is obviously excellent and probably why the Sharp doesn't have or need creative frame interpolation (CFI). Clearly the dlp advantage of the Sharp is visually evident in my experience with these three projectors.

Regardless of all the specs, lines of resolution, testing numbers and reviews done by the so-called projector experts, the only real test that matters as far as I'm concerned is the one you see and experience with your own eyes and I can tell you without a doubt this Sharp projector handles motion flawlessly with no motion artifacts whatsoever. Conversely, both the Sony & Epson projectors I owned briefly are very poor with respect to motion judder on 2D HDTV sports content. Furthermore, the Epson exhibited some screen door effect occasionally but infrequently.

The Sharp has a 6-segment 5X color wheel and I did not see any rainbows, nor did I ever see any rainbows with my older Optoma HD7100 dlp, which I had for 6 years. Granted you will never see any rainbows with the Sony LCos or Epson 3LCD technologies since rainbows are only associated with dlp technology but the Sharp also appears to be rainbow-free as my old Optoma.

However, even if you are sensitive to rainbows or you are concerned about rainbows with dlp projectors, I would pose this question to prospective projector buyers:
Would you rather see an occasion rainbow one or two times during a 2-hour movie or see motion judder at least once every 5 to 10 minutes during a 2-hour sports event?
The answer is obvious but it also depends on the type of content you watch on your projector. Without a doubt the Sharp is the better overall projector because it performs significantly better than the Sony and Epson with motion on sports but is also a great home theater projector with blu-ray movies. I would imagine the Sharp is also better with gaming and 3D because of the dlp advantage in handling fast motion & ghosting inherent with 3D. The Sony is a great projector if you watch mainly movies & blu-ray, as is the Epson but it's not quite as good as the Sony in my opinion. The Sharp is just the better overall well-rounded projector of the three in my opinion.

My observations (2D only, no 3D) of these 3 projectors are as follows:

1a. Overall Picture Quality with Movies: Sony is the best, Sharp & Epson a close second and about equal but just slightly behind the Sony.

1b. Overall Picture Quality with Sports: No motion artifacts with the Sharp make it clearly superior to the Sony & Epson.

2. Image Sharpness/Clarity: Sharp & Sony tied with blu-ray movies but the Sharp is crisper/clearer on sports & other 2D HDTV content. The Epson is not as sharp/crisp as the Sony & Sharp.

3. Brightness: The Epson (1st) & Sony are about equal on best color movie settings; the Sharp is a close 2nd but not far behind at 1600 lumens. Brightness level adjustments are good on all three.

4. Color Quality: The Sony has the best color and the Sharp & Epson are tied for close second place behind the Sony. All three have very good extensive color adjustment settings w/menu options.

5. Black-Level & Contrast: The Sony, Epson & Sharp are all very good ultra-high contrast projectors (insignificant issue without a side-by-side comparison)

6. Audible Noise: Sony is best and almost dead silent, the Sharp is very quiet in eco-mode and not bad at full power either. The Epson is quiet in eco-mode but definately the loudest at full lamp power.

7. Dynamic Iris Action: Sony & Sharp tied as both are very smooth, quiet & visually unnoticeable. The Epson iris is poor, it's loud on the ears & noticeble visually.

8. Price: Sharp is best price/performance value; the Sharp can be currently purchased for under $2,500, the Epson about $2,600. The Sony is about $1,000 more expensive than the Sharp & Epson.

9. Warrantly: Sony is best with 3 years plus extra lamp; Sharp is 3 years but no extra lamp; Epson is 2 years w/replacement program. Sony appears best but all 3 have very good warranties.

Summary:

1st place:
I have owned all 3 and I believe the Sharp XV-Z30000 is the best overall projector, at least for me and my viewing content. The Sharp is definately the most well-rounded projector in terms of overall performance and currently the best value of the three. The Sharp is like the "jack-of-all trades" projector but I won't say "master-of-none" because it clearly masters the handling of motion artifacts. The Sharp is excellent on all 2D content including HDTV sports, movies and blu-ray movies with a clean crisp sharp image and very good color.... the dlp advantage I suppose. I also like the Sharp menu the best and it has many setting options.

2nd place:
My second choice is the Sony VLP-HW50ES, which would be the best projector of the three if it only had better motion resolution but I simply could not live with the frequent motion judder being so prevalent on this Sony in 2D HDTV sports. The Sony is a spectacular projector with movies, particularly blu-ray. It also has a nice crisp image with excellent color. However, the Sony is $1,000 more than the Sharp & Epson.

3rd place:
The Epson Home Cinema 5020 is a good projector but the worse of the three projectors in my opinion because it has significant motion judder & some occasional screen door effect. The audible noise in full lamp power & dynamic iris are also big negatives but the Epson is still a fairly good projector with blu-ray movies and has very good color.

In closing:
Based on my experience with all 3 projector technologies, I feel dlp technology is still the superior technology when it comes to home theater projectors because of its well-rounded overall performance. Dlp just seems to have more pros than cons compared to LCos & LCD. Until LCos & 3LCD technolgies can solve the motion artifacts problems that appear much more frequently than any possible rainbows one may or may not ever see on a dlp projector, as far as I'm concerned dlp is the way to go. I can now attest to the so-called dlp advantage... dlp all the way baby!
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post #11 of 39 Old 03-17-2013, 08:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dlimatime View Post

I received the Sharp XV-Z30000 projector and have a little over 20 hours viewing time on it over the last few days. My intial impressions are that I made the right choice based mainly on 2D HDTV (Charter Cable TV) viewing of sports. I watched plenty of golf, basketball, ice hockey and some baseball and did not see any motion judder whatsoever. I also watched a couple of blu-ray movies (James Bond Skyfall & Star Trek) and they looked absolutely fantastic on the Sharp. No doubt the Sharp is a great well-rounded projector. I have clearly made the right choice based on my viewing preferences because I have not seen one single episode of motion judder on the Sharp. With the Sony VPL-HW50ES (LCos) I saw frequent motion judder with 2D HDTV sports. With the Epson 5020 (3LCD) I also saw frequent motion judder and occasional screen door effect. Wth this Sharp there's no other motion artifacts (judder, blur, rainbows); the processing on the Sharp is obviously excellent and probably why the Sharp doesn't have or need creative frame interpolation (CFI). Clearly the dlp advantage of the Sharp is visually evident in my experience with these three projectors.

Regardless of all the specs, lines of resolution, testing numbers and reviews done by the so-called projector experts, the only real test that matters as far as I'm concerned is the one you see and experience with your own eyes and I can tell you without a doubt this Sharp projector handles motion flawlessly with no motion artifacts whatsoever. Conversely, both the Sony & Epson projectors I owned briefly are very poor with respect to motion judder on 2D HDTV sports content. Furthermore, the Epson exhibited some screen door effect occasionally but infrequently.

The Sharp has a 6-segment 5X color wheel and I did not see any rainbows, nor did I ever see any rainbows with my older Optoma HD7100 dlp, which I had for 6 years. Granted you will never see any rainbows with the Sony LCos or Epson 3LCD technologies since rainbows are only associated with dlp technology but the Sharp also appears to be rainbow-free as my old Optoma.

However, even if you are sensitive to rainbows or you are concerned about rainbows with dlp projectors, I would pose this question to prospective projector buyers:
Would you rather see an occasion rainbow one or two times during a 2-hour movie or see motion judder at least once every 5 to 10 minutes during a 2-hour sports event?
The answer is obvious but it also depends on the type of content you watch on your projector. Without a doubt the Sharp is the better overall projector because it performs significantly better than the Sony and Epson with motion on sports but is also a great home theater projector with blu-ray movies. I would imagine the Sharp is also better with gaming and 3D because of the dlp advantage in handling fast motion & ghosting inherent with 3D. The Sony is a great projector if you watch mainly movies & blu-ray, as is the Epson but it's not quite as good as the Sony in my opinion. The Sharp is just the better overall well-rounded projector of the three in my opinion.

My observations (2D only, no 3D) of these 3 projectors are as follows:

1a. Overall Picture Quality with Movies: Sony is the best, Sharp & Epson a close second and about equal but just slightly behind the Sony.

1b. Overall Picture Quality with Sports: No motion artifacts with the Sharp make it clearly superior to the Sony & Epson.

2. Image Sharpness/Clarity: Sharp & Sony tied with blu-ray movies but the Sharp is crisper/clearer on sports & other 2D HDTV content. The Epson is not as sharp/crisp as the Sony & Sharp.

3. Brightness: The Epson (1st) & Sony are about equal on best color movie settings; the Sharp is a close 2nd but not far behind at 1600 lumens. Brightness level adjustments are good on all three.

4. Color Quality: The Sony has the best color and the Sharp & Epson are tied for close second place behind the Sony. All three have very good extensive color adjustment settings w/menu options.

5. Black-Level & Contrast: The Sony, Epson & Sharp are all very good ultra-high contrast projectors (insignificant issue without a side-by-side comparison)

6. Audible Noise: Sony is best and almost dead silent, the Sharp is very quiet in eco-mode and not bad at full power either. The Epson is quiet in eco-mode but definately the loudest at full lamp power.

7. Dynamic Iris Action: Sony & Sharp tied as both are very smooth, quiet & visually unnoticeable. The Epson iris is poor, it's loud on the ears & noticeble visually.

8. Price: Sharp is best price/performance value; the Sharp can be currently purchased for under $2,500, the Epson about $2,600. The Sony is about $1,000 more expensive than the Sharp & Epson.

9. Warrantly: Sony is best with 3 years plus extra lamp; Sharp is 3 years but no extra lamp; Epson is 2 years w/replacement program. Sony appears best but all 3 have very good warranties.

Summary:

1st place:
I have owned all 3 and I believe the Sharp XV-Z30000 is the best overall projector, at least for me and my viewing content. The Sharp is definately the most well-rounded projector in terms of overall performance and currently the best value of the three. The Sharp is like the "jack-of-all trades" projector but I won't say "master-of-none" because it clearly masters the handling of motion artifacts. The Sharp is excellent on all 2D content including HDTV sports, movies and blu-ray movies with a clean crisp sharp image and very good color.... the dlp advantage I suppose. I also like the Sharp menu the best and it has many setting options.

2nd place:
My second choice is the Sony VLP-HW50ES, which would be the best projector of the three if it only had better motion resolution but I simply could not live with the frequent motion judder being so prevalent on this Sony in 2D HDTV sports. The Sony is a spectacular projector with movies, particularly blu-ray. It also has a nice crisp image with excellent color. However, the Sony is $1,000 more than the Sharp & Epson.

3rd place:
The Epson Home Cinema 5020 is a good projector but the worse of the three projectors in my opinion because it has significant motion judder & some occasional screen door effect. The audible noise in full lamp power & dynamic iris are also big negatives but the Epson is still a fairly good projector with blu-ray movies and has very good color.

In closing:
Based on my experience with all 3 projector technologies, I feel dlp technology is still the superior technology when it comes to home theater projectors because of its well-rounded overall performance. Dlp just seems to have more pros than cons compared to LCos & LCD. Until LCos & 3LCD technolgies can solve the motion artifacts problems that appear much more frequently than any possible rainbows one may or may not ever see on a dlp projector, as far as I'm concerned dlp is the way to go. I can now attest to the so-called dlp advantage... dlp all the way baby!

Be interesting to see what motion resolution it has... Motion resolution is completely different to motion judder. If you run that test2 file that is linked you will see how many lines it can display while panning... (prob be 300-500?)
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post #12 of 39 Old 03-17-2013, 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted by dlimatime View Post

I received the Sharp XV-Z30000 projector and have a little over 20 hours viewing time on it over the last few days.
Great little review. It's heartwarming to hear such praise towards this projector which I'll also get in several weeks. It'd be appropriate if you put it in this topic. http://www.avsforum.com/t/1386035/sharp-xv-z30000-3d-dlp/210
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I agree with dlimatime on the Sharp. It throws a very nice, clean, smooth, and natural picture. I can see few rainbows but they are not very distracting. I liked Sharp's picture over Sony's picture. The HW50 looks too digital, un-natural, and over-processed with RC.
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post #14 of 39 Old 03-20-2013, 12:26 PM
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I agree with the motion blur issues with the lcos and lcd projectors. That is why I still love my Marantz VP15S1.
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I just received a loaner Vivitek H5085 while I wait for my NuVision P2 to get fixed by them. I measured only ~400 with that test on the H5085. FI system off. MPC-HC and MadVR renderer used for the test. As a side note, I've heard rumors that the H5085 is the same as the Optoma HD8600 so you can expect the same results for those interested.

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post #16 of 39 Old 03-20-2013, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rboehl View Post

I agree with the motion blur issues with the lcos and lcd projectors. That is why I still love my Marantz VP15S1.

I just sold my VP-11S1 and bought a VP-15S1. I wanted to "keep" the 11S1 but have something brighter. It seemed like a logical choice. tongue.gif

I should have it by weeks end!

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post #17 of 39 Old 03-20-2013, 05:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Let me know our thoughts on the Vivitek H5085 after viewing. I was considering this Vivitek, as well as the Optoma HD8600, before ultimately purchasing the Sharp XV-Z30000. How is the image quality, sharpness, color, audible noise and dynamic iris performance on the Vivitek? The Vivitek & Optoma apparently use the same lense & case and are very similar, if not basically the same projector. Difference in current pricing suggests it has to do with the warranty (3 years on the Optoma but only 1 year on the Vivitek). The Optoma 8600 is known for a very sharp image with great color but only average black level... is the Vivitek similar in this regard?
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You aren't going to like my response and that's only because I currently have two other much higher end DLP projectors. I honestly don't understand how someone could buy this and be totally happy with it. I'm lucky enough to have owned MANY different projectors so I know what looks better. I've had a handful of 'under $3000' .65" DMD DLP machines over the last couple years and none of them have had picture quality that I'd consider "good enough" or anything close to what I've seen with the larger .95" DMD projectors. In the under $3500 price range there doesn't seem to be a single .65" DLP projector that puts out a 2D image worth owning IMO. People seem to think older means worse. While that's typically the case for LCD and LCOS machines, from my experience that isn't the case with the older DLP projectors. DLP has gone downhill so much over the last few years. Companies who once had great looking DLP machines have annually lowered their flagship projector's price point and with it the quality has lowered as well. If I was stuck to choose a projector in that price range I'd almost always go with either the low end JVC or maybe one of the Sony's. I haven't seen the Sharp 30k and that seems like the last bastion of hope as far as I'm concerned. They (the .65" DLP machines) just don't seem to have the same pop and no where near as much native contrast as the larger DMD machines have. Sharpness (other than a couple BenQ's) isn't there either. From what I've seen the low end JVC is actually sharper overall AND resolves pixels better for text too. The only real thing these have going for them is motion handling. It's a shame because DLP can give great image quality.

Anyways, the point I'm trying to make here is that try and find an older high end DLP machine if you want to go the DLP route. Heck, I got the Marantz VP-15S1 for $800 and it will and does BLOW away anything DLP under $5000. The Vivitek H5080 only has better contrast and black levels with it's dynamic iris on it's most aggressive setting but that setting is way too noticeable and induces tons of pumping so as far am I'm concerned people shouldn't be looking at contrast numbers with that setting engaged. It's less aggressive DI mode is very smooth and almost invisible but you can tell it doesn't work particularly hard and the cost of that is a very high black level floor and greatly reduced contrast. The Marantz with it's iris all the way open has a lower black floor than this Vivitek does with its manual iris closed all the way down and the DI set to it's only usable setting. That's disappointing considering people are buying these machines and thinking that because it's newer it must be better. This was the same situation with the Mitsubishi HC7800D. They are very similar performance wise. The Mitsubishi was much better on color out of the box though. I just feel like companies like BenQ, Optoma, and Mitsubishi are basically giving Sony and JVC a free pass to own the under $5000 projector market. When a company like Runco can offer two projectors with an MSRP under $5000 and have the larger DMD, far superior optics, and far superior out of the box color and picture quality you know something is messed up. They are trying to make WAAY too much profit and this gives the end user a pretty crappy product.

/rant

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post #19 of 39 Old 03-20-2013, 06:16 PM
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Seegs, the problem is the target market... The ls-1 and ls-3 are straight forward 2d machines. The optomas and viviteks of the world want to reach the broadest market possible, and leaving out 3d and a torch mode for the best buy crowd puts it at a disadvantage. When set up in a warehouse environment, the average buyer sees no difference between cheap lcd tv and a decent plasma at the same price... Except that the lcd is brighter! Unfortunately, if mitsu/sharp/benq made a .95" dc2/dc3 dlp with a nice lens, I think they'd have trouble selling it over $3k in sufficient numbers to turn a profit.

"A wide screen just makes a bad film twice as bad. "
-Samuel Goldwyn

I wonder what he'd think about 3D IMAX?
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Seegs, how the hell you got the 15S1 for $800 ? That is a steal ! Congrats !! smile.gif
Let me know if you come across a 11S2 biggrin.gif
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dougri View Post

Seegs, the problem is the target market... The ls-1 and ls-3 are straight forward 2d machines. The optomas and viviteks of the world want to reach the broadest market possible, and leaving out 3d and a torch mode for the best buy crowd puts it at a disadvantage. When set up in a warehouse environment, the average buyer sees no difference between cheap lcd tv and a decent plasma at the same price... Except that the lcd is brighter! Unfortunately, if mitsu/sharp/benq made a .95" dc2/dc3 dlp with a nice lens, I think they'd have trouble selling it over $3k in sufficient numbers to turn a profit.

That's true I guess. One of the issues is that there aren't too many people calling these companies out on their BS. I read a bunch of reviews of the H5080 (very similar to the H5085) and they all praised how great it looked. Okay, I doesn't look horrible. It looks okay PQ wise but these .65" DLP machines look no where near as good as the DLP machines these same reviewers were looking at just a couple years ago. Is their ability to recollect that far off? Or maybe they are judging based on price? That doesn't seem to be the case either because the offerings of Sony and JVC in this price range basically blow them away.
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Seegs, how the hell you got the 15S1 for $800 ? That is a steal ! Congrats !! smile.gif
Let me know if you come across a 11S2 biggrin.gif

Gotta keep an eye on eBay. The final price was a little over $900 after shipping but I still think that's one heck of deal. I'll get the same look as the 11S1 with a brighter image. smile.gif

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post #22 of 39 Old 03-20-2013, 07:45 PM
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How much different is the 11S1 and 11S2 to the Runco LS-5?
Are these close?

I'm a bit confused, I don't remember all the model numbers of the older DLP's, been too long since I kept track of it.

I agree older DLP's are a bit better, much better for 2D than newer DLP's. I was looking for one casually over the past 3 years, but I never found a great deal.

$800, man I'd have bought that. I don't even know all the model numbers I need to "watch out" for on Ebay or whatever if I were to find one. What are they anyhow?



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post #23 of 39 Old 03-20-2013, 08:03 PM
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The LS-5 acts a little bit different than the 11S1 and 11S2. Marantz built them in mind to be used with a manual iris that can be set to one of two or three positions (depending on the model) whereas the Runco was built with a DI in mind. Both use almost the same Gennum processing (the Runco uses a later revision Gennum processor but both give the same viewing impression as far as I'm concerned). As far as image quality goes both look very similar. The Runco goes deeper on the black levels and contrast, but the Marantz has a better lens that's as good as you can get under $20000. Sharpest image I've ever seen. It's a hard comparison because they both look similar PQ wise. It depends on what you want, the sharpest thing out there or something that is just a tad softer with black levels and contrast that are better?

Some models to look out for:

Marantz VP-11S1 (I just sold mine two days ago for $1650, though I haven't received payment yet so it may be relisted)
Marantz VP-11S2
Marantz VP-15S1
Runco LS-5
Runco LS-3
Runco LS-1
Planar PD8150
Planar PD8130
Sharp XV-Z20000
BenQ W20000
Samsung SP-A900B
Sim2 D80E
Sim2 HT380
Sim2 HT30000E

The last two still sell typically more than $3000 used but are still really nice single chip DLP machines. The rest can be found for under that price point on a good day.

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post #24 of 39 Old 03-20-2013, 08:06 PM
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What is the calibrated lumen output on the 11S1?


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post #25 of 39 Old 03-20-2013, 08:14 PM
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I'm not much of a calibrator and I think my colorimeter is screwed up anyways. I've tried using it ( Eye-One Display LT) a few times with HCFR and never got results that looked right. OOTB the colors on the Marantz look VERY respectable. Over the weekend I went to a home theater meet and everyone told me (and I agreed) the Marantz OOTB looked MUCH better than the Sony HW50ES OOTB as the owner hasn't had it calibrated yet. I measured ~25 foot lamberts with a light meter on my 92" 2.8 HP screen with just over 100 hours on the lamp.

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post #26 of 39 Old 03-21-2013, 10:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Seegs,

Thanks for your input, both positive & negative. I do not necessarily disagree with you because you have made many good points but keep in mind that I am looking for certain features in a projector that will better suite the bulk of my usual viewing content. As many of us projector folks do, I also rely partly upon projector reviews (Art F.), projector central, home theater and sound & vision reviews in assisting me with my ultimate purchasing decision.

Thus, based on reviews and my experience with a few other projectors, I decided to purchase the Sharp XV-Z30000.
The important features/factors I look for in a projector are as follows:

1. Budget: under $3500
2, Viewing content 75% 2D HDTV sports / 25% blu-ray
3. Image Quality: priority is a sharp, crisp 2D image with good to very good color (don't care much about 3D yet because it's still a newer evolving thing and not refined enough yet)
4: Motion Judder: smooth artifact-free motion handling w/no motion judder. I experienced frequently motion judder with Sony HW50 (LCos) & Epson 5020 (3LCD) w/HDTV sports)
5. Placement: Based on my HT room set up I needed a projector placed no further back than 11' 6" from the screen (Sharp lense allowed me to do this)

Why do these Sony's, JVC's & Epson mainstream models get such great reviews all the time when they all have shortcomings/issues? (ie. motion judder, blur, screen door, brightness).

I'm beginning to think Art at Projector Reviews put way too much emphasis on black level and strictly blu-ray movie viewing. Many of us will also use the projector for HDTV & sports on DirectTV and Cable TV and not just blu-ray movies. This is mainly why I'm happy with the Sharp and it does produce a nice image on blu-ray as well. I briefly owned both the Sony HW50 & Epson 5020 and returned both of them because I was not at all impressed with the Sony & Epson on HDTV 2D sports because of the frequent motion judder problem.

Art F. either didn't test for motion judder w/HDTV sports or he is simply omitting it from his reviews. As thorough as Art's reviews appear, he should also test and comment more thoroughly on projector performance with other viewing content besides blu-ray movies. I have not seen any motion judder on the Sharp and the image is crisp and sharper than the Sony & Epson. I believe this is an advantage of dlp technology.

I agree with you about poor recent offerings in the dlp market and was waiting for Optoma to come out with some newer high end model besides since the 2009 launch of the Optoma HD8600. Optoma has not come out with anything that's really intrigued me lately. I really liked my 6-year old Optoma HD7100 until the power supply went out and parts are no longer available.; this projector had great color, very good black levels and a very sharp image.

Based on reviews the higher end Runco's & Sim2 projectors also have flaws... As per Art's reviews and others I've read the black levels, rainbows, lower lumens etc. of these these so-called "high end" top $ projectors don't necessarily provide greater performance. One could argue that these higher end projector companies are overated/overpriced projectors that in many cases do not even outperform the mainstream models from companies like Sony, Epson, Optoma etc. Ask yourself which companies truly offer the better price/performance value?

As far as the dlp chip goes, I have never owned a .95 chip, only the .65 chip. Is there really that great of a noticeable difference? I you were looking at an image not knowing the projector I highly doubt you or anyone else could definatively determine which dlp chip it you were looking at.

You stated in your reply to me, "I don't understand how someone could be totally happy with it" (it being the Sharp XV-Z30000 I own). You contradict yourself because you admit that you have not seen the Sharp 30K in action so how would you know anything about it's performance and image quality? It seems you are knocking down any dlp projector that doesn't have the .95 chip in it or high-end name & pricetag.

Also, despite all the many so called "high-end" dlp projectors you have owned, I would ask you why have you owned so many? You are either searching for the holy grail of projectors or as you indicated to me, it must be that it is in fact you that is not "totally happy" with the projector(s) you have owned."

I am obviously partial to dlp projectors and I would be interested in knowing which dlp projectors you have owned and which one(s) you liked the best in terms of a sharp, crisp image, good color and smooth motion "judder-free" handling. In your experience, what have been the pros & cons of the best projectors you have owned?

Please don't take my comments the wrong way, it's just constructive critisism. I have only owned 4 projectors since 2006 (Optoma HD7100, Epson Cinema 5020, Sony VPL-HW50ES & now the Sharp XV-Z30000). You obviously have more experience with projectors than I do and I am interested in your opinions & experiences.

Thanks!
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post #27 of 39 Old 03-21-2013, 10:36 AM
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My Marantz VP-15S1 that I have had for 4 years is still one of the best projected images that I have seen. I have seen most of the latest dlp , lcd,and lcos and I don`t feel I am missing anything. The super sharp image and respectable blacks are still great.
The only thing that I have to do soon is find another bulb as mine has almost 2k hours on it.
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Do you know if there a big cost factor in projector pricing because of a .95 dlp chip versus a .65 chip?
Is the .95 chip the newest/latest dlp chip from Texas Instruments and what are the so-called advantages of the .95 chip?
Which dlp projector models use the .95 chip?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dlimatime View Post

Seegs,
...
You stated in your reply to me, "I don't understand how someone could be totally happy with it" (it being the Sharp XV-Z30000 I own).
...
Thanks!
dlimatime

I took that statement to be in regards to the vivitek H5085 he has as a loaner (and for which you asked his impressions). No???

"A wide screen just makes a bad film twice as bad. "
-Samuel Goldwyn

I wonder what he'd think about 3D IMAX?
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post #30 of 39 Old 03-21-2013, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dlimatime View Post

Do you know if there a big cost factor in projector pricing because of a .95 dlp chip versus a .65 chip?
Is the .95 chip the newest/latest dlp chip from Texas Instruments and what are the so-called advantages of the .95 chip?
Which dlp projector models use the .95 chip?

The below article is a few years old, but TI has not changed the technology/processes as far as we know (added some features such as support for 144Hz, though). My take is consistent with the optical engineer in the comments in the below article that it takes a better lens to get the same performance out of a .65" DMD vs a .95" DMD with the same process (at least as far as sharpness is concerned). While some manufacturers do very well with sharpness on lower end units (e.g. benq w7000), lenses also impact the colors and contrast. While it may be possible for a plastic lens made in China to perform on par with a glass lens made in Japan, it is unlikely across all lens attributes. Anyway, the below article is an interesting read if you have not seen it before. Having said that, I have high hopes for the Sharp, as I'm still looking for a 3D projector.

http://www.videovantage.com/?p=11

edit: on cost, the larger chip will require a larger lens for the same offset/throw... larger lens -> increased cost (especially for a glass lens).

"A wide screen just makes a bad film twice as bad. "
-Samuel Goldwyn

I wonder what he'd think about 3D IMAX?
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