Epson 6020UB vs Sony HW50ES - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 32 Old 03-14-2013, 11:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi everyone, there is so much information here.. I'm so confused.. Am I better off getting the Epson 6020UB + Darblet Vs the Sony HW50ES.. my wall size is 208" across and 360" long.. I would like to hook up a 150" screen . 90% use is 2D , no gaming just movies in a dedcated room..

The screen I'm looking into is the screen innovations solar hd 4K 1.3 gain..

Seating will be @ 24 feet and projector mouted would be 15 to 16 feet ceiling mount..

What do you giys think..? Sony HW50ES or Epson 6020UB+Darblet?
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post #2 of 32 Old 03-14-2013, 11:57 AM
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I have had both...well I had the Epson 6010....

I would say without a doubt the Sony. I think it does everything better than the Epson, except the absolute brightest mode, which of course the Epson can push more lumens.

If you are looking for a very accurate picture in "best" mode the Sony can muster up around 1000 calibrated lumens, compared I think to the Epsons 600ish...That is a big difference.
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post #3 of 32 Old 03-14-2013, 12:56 PM
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Get the Sony HW50ES AND a Darblet. In a dedicated room you don't need the additional brightness the Epson can push. The colors will be f**ked in that mode anyway.

This is coming from a PT-AE8000U+Darblet owner who was also owned the Epson 5020.

Also, 15ft mount seems dang close for a 150" screen. You'll really be testing the quality of your lens. Also, if you really mount it that close brightness will, again, not be a problem at all.
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post #4 of 32 Old 03-14-2013, 12:58 PM - Thread Starter
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If teh sony does 1000 lumens calibrated, would the epson's be higher like 1400 lumens brighter picture?
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post #5 of 32 Old 03-14-2013, 01:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xank View Post

Get the Sony HW50ES AND a Darblet. In a dedicated room you don't need the additional brightness the Epson can push. The colors will be f**ked in that mode anyway.

This is coming from a PT-AE8000U+Darblet owner who was also owned the Epson 5020.

Also, 15ft mount seems dang close for a 150" screen. You'll really be testing the quality of your lens. Also, if you really mount it that close brightness will, again, not be a problem at all.

Is the darblet really necessary with the reality cretion engine?

I'll be connecting this through a Oppo -103 blu ray player..

So far I've decided on the SI Solar HD 4K screen = 133" , but I would like to go bigger given the room size.

Do you turn off the RC and run the darblet?
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post #6 of 32 Old 03-14-2013, 01:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrZaus View Post

If teh sony does 1000 lumens calibrated, would the epson's be higher like 1400 lumens brighter picture?

No, like kaotikr1 said in his post it will be more like 600-700 lumens calibrated. You'll only get more lumens out of the Epson if you switch it to its bright or dynamic mode, which will be impossible to properly calibrate.

Bottom line is if you have a dedicated room you should never have to or want to use the brightest mode. So in your case the Sony would actually be brighter.
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post #7 of 32 Old 03-14-2013, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrZaus View Post

Is the darblet really necessary with the reality cretion engine?

I'll be connecting this through a Oppo -103 blu ray player..

So far I've decided on the SI Solar HD 4K screen = 133" , but I would like to go bigger given the room size.

Do you turn off the RC and run the darblet?

I run both the Darbee and RC on my Sony. I didn't think I would use the Darbee but it actually makes a difference in the picture.

RC to me affects the whole picture, the darbee really brings out the details. It's hard to explain unless you see both in action.
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post #8 of 32 Old 03-14-2013, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaotikr1 View Post

I run both the Darbee and RC on my Sony. I didn't think I would use the Darbee but it actually makes a difference in the picture.

RC to me affects the whole picture, the darbee really brings out the details. It's hard to explain unless you see both in action.

+1

The darbee + rc on the Sony is stunning.
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post #9 of 32 Old 03-15-2013, 05:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Guys.. What is the maximum screen size can I go and get decent quality.. I was told 133" 16:9 mode was optimal (with SI Performance Solar HD 1.3 screen).. wife is screaming at me wants something near 150" ..

The Darblet is the grey one for HD..?
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post #10 of 32 Old 03-15-2013, 06:01 AM
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The Epson can handle a 14' (168" diagonal) Stewart Studiotek 130 screen in my room with partial light controls. With 2400 lumens to start with you can easily handle a 150" screen to keep the wife happy.

I just read that the Epson 6020 won Audioholics 2012 Projector of the year award. Also every Sony I have looked at has lousy 3D with ghosting issues. No doubt content and your eye sensitivity will vary so I will say that is a subjective statement on my part.

Sony's HW50ES projector has at most 1700 lumens. How long do the Sony's lamps last? Their specs say 2000 to 3000 hours. Epson's last over 3000 hours.
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post #11 of 32 Old 03-15-2013, 10:52 AM
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It is all in the eye of the beholder and what expectations you have, along with you location (which is critical)

To give you an idea, I am using JVC DLA-RS4810, which is not as bright as Sony or Epson.

My HT is 100% light controlled - no windows, black ceiling, screen recessed 2 feet between floor to ceiling equipment racks, with black cloth; walls are dark burgundy/brown color, dark carpet and black ceiling and no reflective movie posters.
Under these conditions, I am using a 150" Elite Screens Lunette (1.1 Cinewhite material).
I calibrated my projector in Film mode, low lamp and yet had to close down the aperture (iris) down to -15, for the image to not be too bright for me.
For my preferences, both the Sony and Epson would be way too bright for my 150" screen.

And contrary to other's reports, including Zombie10K, I see absolutely NO ghosting whatsoever.
This is because I like a cinema like image rather than super-bright, plasma like image, that many others prefer, however, which introduces the ghosting issues.

Thus, what you need to take into consideration and truly fully understand, as you make you projector selection and screen size selection are:
1 - what is your brightness preference level - blinding plasma or cinema like?
2 - your HT room. The less light control you have, the brighter projector you need and the smaller screen you can use.
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post #12 of 32 Old 03-15-2013, 11:54 AM
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you're not seeing any crosstalk because ~560 lumens in 3D is going to be quite dim on a low gain screen @ 150" once the shutter glasses are active.

The new JVC RF glasses have no bearing here, they perform the same as the other models I was testing. However, they definitely made an improvement here from the previous models (2010/2011). The crosstalk is seen as a relatively thin hard edge line with high contrast (dark on light) scenes.

I would recommend turning the CT controls to 6. I've studied this closely, there is little discernible difference in crosstalk from 0 -> 6. At 7 or 8, it becomes more noticeable. going from 0 to 6 on the CT controls provides a noticeably increase in brightness through the glasses.



@ DrZaus - The HW50 and 5020 are both great projectors, each have their own unique strengths and weaknesses. The FI in 3D on the HW50 is a bonus, but I also like the RF glasses that Epson uses with their new model.

The HW50 can crank out a bit over 1000 lumens in D65/R709 mode which is the top of the tier for this price point. The Epson can also crank out the lumens, but the colors won't be as accurate. This may not be an issue for ambient light viewing.

You have to tell us more about the room and viewing conditions.
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post #13 of 32 Old 03-15-2013, 12:57 PM
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Zombie

With all due respect to you and all your work, like I said, it is ALL about personal preference in brightness and room/viewing conditions.

What to me is about as bright as I want it (remember, I had to close the aperture completely, so it would not be too bright), you say is too dim.
It is more than bright enough for 2D - any brighter and it would be painful to my eyes.
And for most of us 2D still represent the great majority of available movies for us to watch.
I would not want a projector that is way too bright in 2D that would continually hurt my eyes, just to watch an occasional 3D movie.

This IS a PERSONAL preference, not an absolute number and that is how I put it - please remember that.
It may be too dim to you, but not to me and may not be to many others who prefer cinema experience instead of living room plasma torch.

For 3D I put it into stage mode - in low lamp mode - plenty bright for ME - no need for high lamp mode at all.
Again, it is bright enough for me, while it may not be for your taste.
I also left it clear that it is because I do not insist and do not like, a blazing torch light, that is why I am likely not experiencing ANY cross talk.
Thus if one has a preference for cinema rather than plasma, the super bright projectors may be the wrong choice and also the insistence on super bright modes that are contributing to cross talk that people are seeing.

Enough said - there is no right or wrong - it is about what ones preferences are and what ones room conditions are (this has a huge impact on contrast and perceived brightness) that should drive ones "educated" decision based on ONES choices and not absolutes that some throw about.
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post #14 of 32 Old 03-15-2013, 01:39 PM
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I was only referring to 3D brightness. This is a hot top discussed since 2010 by countless members. The vast majority of members are not going to be pleased with 80% transmission loss with 560 lumens on a low gain 150" screen.

This is why I provide 3D lumen output in my reviews. This way folks can do the math and figure out for themselves if their given projector / screen choice is going to be bright enough.
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post #15 of 32 Old 03-15-2013, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dionyz View Post

Enough said - there is no right or wrong - it is about what ones preferences are and what ones room conditions are (this has a huge impact on contrast and perceived brightness) that should drive ones "educated" decision based on ONES choices and not absolutes that some throw about.

A brighter image has more POP. It is also harder to see shadow detail in darker scenes when the lamp goes below a certain brightness, you need to change the gamma. Conventional wisdom doesn't tell us this, but I've tested it and since our eyes do not see dark gradations linearly, something happens to detail discernment when the image becomes too dark even if the gradiations are still there. These lamps lose a lot of brightness over time, what starts out plenty bright or too bright becomes not bright enough soon enough. Of course that all depends on how many times someone is willing to replace their lamp, how often they watch their projector, and how picky they are.

It's fine people are not picky and don't mind darker images, but this is AVS Forum where people should be picky. I think most people watch the dimmer images only because they don't want to admit it could be better. I mean if you pay $5000+ for a home theater setup, who wants to admit it isn't as good as it could be. It doesn't mean they actually prefer it that way. I've never found a single person that prefers things darker in an A/B than 12 fL unless they are just looking at the black level in a space scene or something, in bright scenes it always POPs more. It's fine if you want bigger and darker, but I am just saying this is the reality of it.


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post #16 of 32 Old 03-15-2013, 09:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

you're not seeing any crosstalk because ~560 lumens in 3D is going to be quite dim on a low gain screen @ 150" once the shutter glasses are active.

The new JVC RF glasses have no bearing here, they perform the same as the other models I was testing. However, they definitely made an improvement here from the previous models (2010/2011). The crosstalk is seen as a relatively thin hard edge line with high contrast (dark on light) scenes.

I would recommend turning the CT controls to 6. I've studied this closely, there is little discernible difference in crosstalk from 0 -> 6. At 7 or 8, it becomes more noticeable. going from 0 to 6 on the CT controls provides a noticeably increase in brightness through the glasses.



@ DrZaus - The HW50 and 5020 are both great projectors, each have their own unique strengths and weaknesses. The FI in 3D on the HW50 is a bonus, but I also like the RF glasses that Epson uses with their new model.

The HW50 can crank out a bit over 1000 lumens in D65/R709 mode which is the top of the tier for this price point. The Epson can also crank out the lumens, but the colors won't be as accurate. This may not be an issue for ambient light viewing.

You have to tell us more about the room and viewing conditions.

Hi Zombie, my room size is 90 inches tall by 17 feet wide and 29.75' long, the room is in the building stage.. I'm planning to use dark grey walls and a flat black ceiling.. dark grey carpet.. there is one small 3'x1' window about 28 feet away from teh screen, I will have dark curtains put up there.. I would like to do a 150" screen in a 235:1 mode @ this point with the cinevista lens 3D does not work... So far the only recommendation I received is a 16:9 Screen Innovation theater performance 133" diagonally 1.3 gain solar hd 4k(eco mode) .. Screen innovation said 160, I would loose picture quality and shorter bulb life.. at this point I'm confused and don't know anymore.. I have such a big room and I cannot use it properly... almost pulled the plug on getting a Jamestown 1.2 screen or a monoprice (grandview) 150" 235:1 screen...
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post #17 of 32 Old 03-15-2013, 11:50 PM
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Zombie brother I have 2 questions can you please respond me


-I will use Sony HW50ES for 120inch diagonal. The calculator says throw distance must be 3.88 - 5.45. If My room is not long and if i throw it from 3.88 the picture quality will decrease-drop or not? I mean is the picture quality same or not throwing it from 3.88m or 4.5 m. (4,5 is the middle zoom)

-What is the ideal fL for a low ambient light room and a dedicated room?

my low ambient light room: only watching movies at night, walls and ceiling white but will have black curtains and lights off

and if i can prepare dedicated room will be dark grey and ceiling and also only watching at nights.

Can you tell me the ideal fL numbers for both condition?

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post #18 of 32 Old 03-16-2013, 07:10 AM
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You're fine running the projector at 3.88m, you would not see a noticeable difference between the various throws.

How close is the projector to the ceiling? After I blacked out my ceiling, the contrast on the HW50 looked much better than when it was white. My screen is very close to the ceiling though.

ideal fL is hard to recommend since every has different preferences for brightness. The HW50 @ ~1000 calibrated lumens can easily handle that 120" screen with decent brightness.


@ DrZaus - is 3D important? I have a 142" 16:9 screen, but it's the dalite high power model (older 2.8 material which is no longer made). I like bright 3D so this screen is a good match at this size since the glasses use up a good portion of the available light. Is your projector going to be ceiling mounted or a shelf on a wall?
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post #19 of 32 Old 03-16-2013, 11:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

You're fine running the projector at 3.88m, you would not see a noticeable difference between the various throws.

How close is the projector to the ceiling? After I blacked out my ceiling, the contrast on the HW50 looked much better than when it was white. My screen is very close to the ceiling though.

ideal fL is hard to recommend since every has different preferences for brightness. The HW50 @ ~1000 calibrated lumens can easily handle that 120" screen with decent brightness.


@ DrZaus - is 3D important? I have a 142" 16:9 screen, but it's the dalite high power model (older 2.8 material which is no longer made). I like bright 3D so this screen is a good match at this size since the glasses use up a good portion of the available light. Is your projector going to be ceiling mounted or a shelf on a wall?
.

It will be ceiling mounted.. Possibly stopping by my local sherwin Williams and check out their product, someone told me to look in Goo Systems... Paintable projector screen.. I was told there reference white is about 1.6 to 1.8 gain... I've never heard of the company. I'll have check them out online.
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post #20 of 32 Old 03-16-2013, 05:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrZaus View Post

.

It will be ceiling mounted.. Possibly stopping by my local sherwin Williams and check out their product, someone told me to look in Goo Systems... Paintable projector screen.. I was told there reference white is about 1.6 to 1.8 gain... I've never heard of the company. I'll have check them out online.

there is a whole DIY forum for painting the screens with gain. There is some effort involved to make sure it's completely uniform (application technique, etc).

If you can shelf mount, why not consider a large 2.4 dalite HP screen? You'll need the projector as close to eye level as possible for maximum gain, but it shouldn't be a problem with a shelf mount.

Even if you aren't into 3D, it's nice to have the extra brightness for watching with ambient light. With the HW50's ~1000 D65 lumens, I can easily watch TV with the lights on on my 142" 16:9 2.8HP.
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post #21 of 32 Old 03-16-2013, 07:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrZaus View Post

Thanks Guys.. What is the maximum screen size can I go and get decent quality.. I was told 133" 16:9 mode was optimal (with SI Performance Solar HD 1.3 screen).. wife is screaming at me wants something near 150" ..

The Darblet is the grey one for HD..?

You can go larger than 133". 133" just gives you extra lumens for good lamp life. It is all about compromise. Some are fine with shorter lamp life for the added size.

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post #22 of 32 Old 03-16-2013, 09:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

there is a whole DIY forum for painting the screens with gain. There is some effort involved to make sure it's completely uniform (application technique, etc).

If you can shelf mount, why not consider a large 2.4 dalite HP screen? You'll need the projector as close to eye level as possible for maximum gain, but it shouldn't be a problem with a shelf mount.

Even if you aren't into 3D, it's nice to have the extra brightness for watching with ambient light. With the HW50's ~1000 D65 lumens, I can easily watch TV with the lights on on my 142" 16:9 2.8HP.

.Zombie, thanks.. I like the images on the Da-lite 2.4 HP.. are you using a 16:9 or 235:1 version of the screen? All I need is the shelf mount for eye level viewing.. where can I get a decent mount to be on the center of the floor surrounded by ht seats or extension pole from ceiling? any pics to get an idea what it would look like.. ?

my wall is about 29 feet away.. so this may be my best bet.. what height do you recommend? will be an obstruction for teh second row of veiwers?

Something similiar to this : http://www.standsandmounts.com/peerlessparamountuniversalprojectorwallorceilingmount-pp.aspx
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post #23 of 32 Old 03-19-2013, 07:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Thank you everyone for your great advice.. I will be ordering my 2.4 gain HP shortly along with the Cinevista and Darblet.. Thank you for your continiuing support..
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post #24 of 32 Old 05-30-2013, 07:46 PM
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But on 3D what is best then in this 2 models ?
The Epson or Sony ?
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post #25 of 32 Old 05-31-2013, 06:21 AM
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These boards are really biased towards the sony and jvc hey?the Epson is just as good as the Sony
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post #26 of 32 Old 05-31-2013, 07:56 AM
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Your room is similar size to mine. I'd get the biggest screen you can fit, particularly if you go with Da Lite HP 2.4 (2.8 would be better still). The feeling of immersion is so much better. I've been using 159" HP and would never consider going lower.

Also keep in mind you can ceiling mount and still get decent gain out of it. In your case the ceiling is already quite low. There are HP calculators out there which will help calculate the available gain depending on the geometry. You may well find the ceiling mount work for you better without the constraint of not being able to raise your head ):

However on the big screen the PJ lens quality becomes more important. I'm not sure how Epson lens would compare to Sony, but suspect the Sony would be better. By most accounts JVC lens is best among the three.
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post #27 of 32 Old 05-31-2013, 08:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Everyone is talking about the wall mount.. and not the ceiling mount for this HP screen..

I've ordered the Chief universal mount "RPA" series and 2 adjustment colums, 1 adjustment column is 12" to 18" and the second is a "24 to 36" .. Can I use the 24" to 36" to get the lower wall mount effect verses mounting on the wall? also the 159" looks awesome, but it is over 70 inches , that almost literally 3 inches from ceiling and less the 6 inche from floor for a 16:9 set-up.. What is the average bulb life on projection on that big of a screen? If'it eye popping 3D as Zombie as described.. they may be no option than the HP or HPHC smile.gif
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post #28 of 32 Old 05-31-2013, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by domingos38 View Post

These boards are really biased towards the sony and jvc hey?the Epson is just as good as the Sony

No, not really biased......just realist's. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the Epson other than a few knocks that can affect which is considered better, IMO.

Pixel fill: if you move too close to the screen with the Epson you start to see the pixel structure/grid aka the screen door effect.
Dust blobs: because the Epson does not have a sealed light path you have the potential for dust blobs (been there done that).

Other than that, I loved my old Epson. I know some say the Lcos has a more cinematic look when compared to a Lcd but that's debatable in my opinion. I never considered my Epson as un-cinematic. In fact I loved how it looked....I just love my JVC and the look of my other projector, a DLP, more. Plus I don't have to deal with the above mentioned Epson issues. I do unfortunately lose that Epson warranty!

I now recommend the Sony to friends just because it is brighter in best mode and it is much quieter than both the JVC and the Epson. Plus you don't have to worry about the Epson issues.

Brightness and blacks! that's where it's at! (a 150"+ screen doesn't hurt either!)
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post #29 of 32 Old 05-31-2013, 08:45 AM
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Yes, the screen will be nearly floor to ceiling. It looks quite amazing in my set up - gives a feeling of nearly total immersion. I use the Chief RPA - the AVS gave a nice deal - mounted 6" from the ceiling. You can experiment with longer column, but for me the short drop works well. Mount the PJ reasonably close to the screen to max out the brightness but keep behind the head. Also center it to avoid lens shift as much as possible. I've been running Epson 6500UB in low lamp with no issues, with 2100hrs on original bulb thus far, so it gives an idea of what a great deal the 2.8HP is. The Sony should look amazing on it, 2D or 3D.
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post #30 of 32 Old 05-31-2013, 10:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wohlstad View Post

Yes, the screen will be nearly floor to ceiling. It looks quite amazing in my set up - gives a feeling of nearly total immersion. I use the Chief RPA - the AVS gave a nice deal - mounted 6" from the ceiling. You can experiment with longer column, but for me the short drop works well. Mount the PJ reasonably close to the screen to max out the brightness but keep behind the head. Also center it to avoid lens shift as much as possible. I've been running Epson 6500UB in low lamp with no issues, with 2100hrs on original bulb thus far, so it gives an idea of what a great deal the 2.8HP is. The Sony should look amazing on it, 2D or 3D.

Hi Can you post a pic of your set-up when you get a chance, I want to know what kind of monster I get before a rude awakening.. also a picture of you projector mounted as well please.
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