"Black" Theater Improvment Thread (Once you go black you never go back?) - Page 22 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #631 of 910 Old 02-16-2014, 12:22 PM
Toe
AVS Addicted Member
 
Toe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 12,946
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 31 Post(s)
Liked: 400
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMyers View Post

Hopefully I'm not bring up something that has already been discussed... And I'm just tossing this out there... happy to hear all the reasons it's a bad/wrong idea smile.gif

I myself have had the black velvet in my theater for 10 years. It was a HUGE improvement over the existing non-treatment (walls). However, I ran across some additional stuff on human perception of light intensity, which made me ask... with regard to material around the screen...

Are we doing it wrong?

Wouldn't a gray velvet (if such a thing exists) be best?

Look at these

http://web.mit.edu/persci/gaz/gaz-teaching/

I'm thinking that gray would make the black levels on the screen look amazing.

Thoughts?


Going all black is much more than just improving your actual image, but making your room disappear as much as possible. The closer to ZERO visual distractions in your field of view, the more immersive the visual experience will be since you don't have ANYTHING else fighting for your visual attention and the best way to do this is black, and black velvet in particular.

JVC 3D: Been there, done that, bought a DLP
Toe is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #632 of 910 Old 02-16-2014, 12:30 PM
AVS Special Member
 
fierce_gt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,080
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 181 Post(s)
Liked: 502
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMyers View Post

Hopefully I'm not bring up something that has already been discussed... And I'm just tossing this out there... happy to hear all the reasons it's a bad/wrong idea smile.gif

I myself have had the black velvet in my theater for 10 years. It was a HUGE improvement over the existing non-treatment (walls). However, I ran across some additional stuff on human perception of light intensity, which made me ask... with regard to material around the screen...

Are we doing it wrong?

Wouldn't a gray velvet (if such a thing exists) be best?

Look at these

http://web.mit.edu/persci/gaz/gaz-teaching/

I'm thinking that gray would make the black levels on the screen look amazing.

Thoughts?

this goes along with the idea of bias lighting for flat panels, and something that i definitely did notice when darkening my room.
i have a jvc x35 which does have good black levels, so removing ambient light bouncing around and back onto the screen did affect black levels noticeably.

anyway. starting with white ceiling and light tan walls.

after painting about 4feet of the ceiling black, i noticed a HUGE improvement in black levels, and thus contrast on screen. that was it, i was sold, I'm doing the whole room now!

i then painted the rest of the ceiling black, the bottom half of the walls black, and the top half of the walls dark blue. all matte finish. with the lights off the room was now REALLY dark.
what i noticed was that the image on screen now looked too bright. blacks were noticeably 'grey' and the bright areas were uncomfortably bright. fortunately i was able to solve these issues by closing down the iris on my jvc to -15. but, even thought the blacks were 'blacker' they did not appear any better than before. the APPARENT performance on screen had not changed after doing the rest of the room. my theory was that because the room was now darker, my eye's adjusted(pupils more dilated) and my 'night vision' was allowing me to see the 'black' on screen better.

I've thought about ways to perhaps backlight the screen to try and bring back the 'off black' appearance i had before, but I'm not sure it's really worth it. fades to black still look 'off black', it's only when watching really dark movies where i can see that black isn't black

what this experience has done for me, is tell me that i don't NEED everything in the room to be a black hole. i like the way rooms look with a splash of color, and now i know that for me, that won't hurt on screen performance. my threshold for positively affecting on screen performance is fairly low. i just need to avoid bright colors right near the screen
fierce_gt is offline  
post #633 of 910 Old 02-16-2014, 01:24 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
R Harkness's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 11,857
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Liked: 243
The issues being discussed here are why the new JVCs are, for me, so significant. A black hole theater room helps most images look amazing, but does show up the glowing
black levels of a projector, the darker/lower the APL scene. But it is just those scenes that the new ILA provide the benefit, making the black levels deeper (not to mention fade to blacks).
So it goes some very welcome way to addressing this black level issue that you get in a bat-cave viewing environment, and pushes the performance another step closer to "having it all"
(that is, all the benefits of a fully blacked out room in terms of the image experience, while not drawing attention to grayish black levels). Of course, if we had OLED-type performance
in projection, much of this would be moot - you'd get pure black levels no matter what you surround your screen with. (Obvious caveats left out).
R Harkness is offline  
post #634 of 910 Old 02-16-2014, 07:08 PM
Member
 
willymo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 90
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 31
I just painted the ceiling of my HT room black (front wall was already black). The side walls are grey. I went to a paint store (Benjamin Moore) and asked the guy to mix me the flattest, darkest black paint he could. He did, and it came out spectacular! I didn't realize how much my white ceiling was robbing me of black! Letter boxed bars, in particular, look much darker. My wife noticed the difference right away. The picture looks like a 100 inch plasma (no exaggeration)! I think if you're on the fence about painting, at the very least, your ceiling black; do it!


Epsom 5030UB THX projector - Kevin Miller calibrated
100 Inch, tension tabbed Vapex, electric drop down screen (16x9)
Onkyo TSX 787 av receiver
PS3
Panasonic Blu Ray player with analog output for high Rez audio
Polk TSX 550 T left/right
TSI center
TSX surrounds
Definitive Technology 15 inch, 500 watt powered sub
Various brand name cables, wires,, switchers, etc....
DavidHir likes this.
willymo is offline  
post #635 of 910 Old 02-16-2014, 11:35 PM
AVS Special Member
 
fierce_gt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,080
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 181 Post(s)
Liked: 502
Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

The issues being discussed here are why the new JVCs are, for me, so significant. A black hole theater room helps most images look amazing, but does show up the glowing
black levels of a projector, the darker/lower the APL scene. But it is just those scenes that the new ILA provide the benefit, making the black levels deeper (not to mention fade to blacks).
So it goes some very welcome way to addressing this black level issue that you get in a bat-cave viewing environment, and pushes the performance another step closer to "having it all"
(that is, all the benefits of a fully blacked out room in terms of the image experience, while not drawing attention to grayish black levels). Of course, if we had OLED-type performance
in projection, much of this would be moot - you'd get pure black levels no matter what you surround your screen with. (Obvious caveats left out).

as long as the DI is completely silent and fast enough to be unnoticeable(or maybe you need it to have enough increments so it's not an 'on/off' sudden change?).

the jvc NOT having a DI was a deciding factor for me over the Epson 5020. I had an older Epson with a DI and it was brutal. totally unwatchable with it on imo. so I'm still skeptical that they have improved enough for it to be a no-compromise feature.

I'm curious about oled. have we actually experience oled producing 'pure black'? because the only oled screens I've seen have been on phones, and non of them were even close. just wondering if there's really any substance to this claim, or if it's still a pipe dream
fierce_gt is offline  
post #636 of 910 Old 02-17-2014, 04:56 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
stanger89's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Marion, IA
Posts: 17,284
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 41 Post(s)
Liked: 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

I agree. The darker my room becomes the less happy I am with my black level... I believe a lot of "black addicts" are going more for making the room disappear of which I don't have an issue with while viewing a movie. And yes it's been covered many times... why not another. smile.gif

I waffle on this somewhat regularly, should I add some bias lighting to my screen, and if so, how... What I've noticed is if I sit down in my HT with my laptop, the black levels on screen appear perfect, absolutely black. I know this is because the light from my laptop keeps my pupils from dilating, so I find myself wondering, can I do that with something built into the system? I may have to try this year because a projector upgrade may well be out of the cards now this year.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
stanger89 is offline  
post #637 of 910 Old 02-17-2014, 08:00 AM
Member
 
Mark77771's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 23
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12

I don't think I agree that the room should be as black as possible. As in my room everything is covered in black fabric except the ceiling which apart from a couple of ft from the screen covered in back fabric is painted matt back. I have tried covering the rest of the ceiling in black fabric which makes it less reflective and it makes the image look worse not better. I have tried the projector at different combinations of Lumens/contrast as it is adjustable 1,200 to 7,500:1 native contrast at 5,000 to <1,000 Lumens and at different gamma settings 2.6,2.5,2.2. I also prefer the image with a border at the bottom of screen rather than black fabric. Maybe it would look better with the ceiling covered in black fabric if my projector was a Lcos rather than a DLP. 

Mark77771 is offline  
post #638 of 910 Old 02-17-2014, 04:18 PM
AVS Special Member
 
fierce_gt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,080
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 181 Post(s)
Liked: 502
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

I waffle on this somewhat regularly, should I add some bias lighting to my screen, and if so, how... What I've noticed is if I sit down in my HT with my laptop, the black levels on screen appear perfect, absolutely black. I know this is because the light from my laptop keeps my pupils from dilating, so I find myself wondering, can I do that with something built into the system? I may have to try this year because a projector upgrade may well be out of the cards now this year.

I'm thinking, if you do the total black velvet treatment around the room, and then have a bias light placed behind the edge of the screen(assuming your screen doesn't allow any light leaking through), that might be enough light in your FOV to keep the pupils open, but none of that light would reflect off your room. so it wouldn't distract you, and it wouldn't bounce back onto the screen raising black levels either.

i actually kind of wonder if a 'feature' of a projector could be to display 2-3 pixels of medium grey(or white?) around the border of the screen to simulate the effects of a bias light. i mean if i look at a black background with a white frame around the edge, that black looks mint!

maybe you just need to put a bright red EXIT sign beside your screen to get the whole commercial theatre experience tongue.gif
fierce_gt is offline  
post #639 of 910 Old 02-17-2014, 04:20 PM
AVS Special Member
 
elmalloc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Cleveland, OH
Posts: 4,776
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 35
My front wall in the 3D projector room is Syfabrics Triple Plush Black velvet. It's difficult to photograph.

I have no screen in this room, the entire front wall is syfabrics.



Here is just the left portion of the screen wall covered in SyFabrics:


Current Projects:
IN PROGRESS (80%) - Building 3D Theater room.
IN PROGRESS (30%) - Building Lounge/Hallway Area.
IN PROGRESS (15%) - Building Home LAN (4 PCs).
ON HOLD - Building Home Gym.
ON HOLD - Building Simulation Room (Eyefinity).
ON HOLD - Building Theater room (Sim2 HT380, 2.35 14ft wide).
elmalloc is offline  
post #640 of 910 Old 02-17-2014, 04:21 PM
AVS Special Member
 
fierce_gt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,080
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 181 Post(s)
Liked: 502
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark77771 View Post

I don't think I agree that the room should be as black as possible. As in my room everything is covered in black fabric except the ceiling which apart from a couple of ft from the screen covered in back fabric is painted matt back. I have tried covering the rest of the ceiling in black fabric which makes it less reflective and it makes the image look worse not better. I have tried the projector at different combinations of Lumens/contrast as it is adjustable 1,200 to 7,500:1 native contrast at 5,000 to <1,000 Lumens and at different gamma settings 2.6,2.5,2.2. I also prefer the image with a border at the bottom of screen rather than black fabric. Maybe it would look better with the ceiling covered in black fabric if my projector was a Lcos rather than a DLP. 

i definitely think the affects of making the room darker are BETTER if the projector has a very deep black level. i know with my old Epson hc720, it didn't really make much difference because the blacks were pretty bright, and it took a lot of ambient light to actually raise them significantly. going darker, just let my eyes adjust more.
fierce_gt is offline  
post #641 of 910 Old 02-17-2014, 05:32 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
R Harkness's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 11,857
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Liked: 243
I found it took quite a bit of room treatment, in terms of cutting down light reflections (using velvet mostly in my case), to finally see the full potential of my JVC and Stewart ST130 screen. That's not to say the image wasn't already very
nice even without room treatment. It would (and did) thoroughly impress any number of people. But since I want to maximize the possible image quality, and not have my room placing a constant limit on a projector's performance, I went
with the room treatment. It's nice not to have to think about those issues any more.
R Harkness is offline  
post #642 of 910 Old 02-18-2014, 07:21 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
stanger89's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Marion, IA
Posts: 17,284
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 41 Post(s)
Liked: 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

i actually kind of wonder if a 'feature' of a projector could be to display 2-3 pixels of medium grey(or white?) around the border of the screen to simulate the effects of a bias light. i mean if i look at a black background with a white frame around the edge, that black looks mint!

I tried that last night, it didn't help. My Radiance has the ability to shrink the image on all sides, so I shrunk it a bit (2-4%) so there was a border and set it to make the border gray (49% was the highest it would go). It didn't seem to help, I'm guessing it's not bright enough. Maybe I'll have to try some cheapo rope light.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
stanger89 is offline  
post #643 of 910 Old 02-18-2014, 02:53 PM
AVS Special Member
 
fierce_gt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,080
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 181 Post(s)
Liked: 502
Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

I found it took quite a bit of room treatment, in terms of cutting down light reflections (using velvet mostly in my case), to finally see the full potential of my JVC and Stewart ST130 screen. That's not to say the image wasn't already very
nice even without room treatment. It would (and did) thoroughly impress any number of people. But since I want to maximize the possible image quality, and not have my room placing a constant limit on a projector's performance, I went
with the room treatment. It's nice not to have to think about those issues any more.

did you do the treatment all at once, or in stages? I'm wondering if you saw a continuous improvement, or if at some point going darker seemed to no longer help, but continuing got you 'over a hump' and you saw improvement again,


I'm asking because with my room, it seemed like going about 15% of the way got me a huge improvement, then getting to about 50% actually made no improvement, and may have even made it worse. now I'm wondering if there's any reason to go even further. or if it's time to worry about something else
fierce_gt is offline  
post #644 of 910 Old 02-18-2014, 02:59 PM
AVS Special Member
 
fierce_gt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,080
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 181 Post(s)
Liked: 502
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

I tried that last night, it didn't help. My Radiance has the ability to shrink the image on all sides, so I shrunk it a bit (2-4%) so there was a border and set it to make the border gray (49% was the highest it would go). It didn't seem to help, I'm guessing it's not bright enough. Maybe I'll have to try some cheapo rope light.

I wonder if you could add lights like in this pic(the ones at the bottom):
http://www.houzz.com/photos/1190324/Home-Cinema-modern-media-room-other-metro

without causing too much light to be reflected back onto the screen. I think that's where the black velvet treatment would come in really handy. you could get a light in the room bright enough to affect your pupils without raising black levels on screen.
fierce_gt is offline  
post #645 of 910 Old 02-18-2014, 03:01 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Craig Peer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: In my home theater ( when I'm not rock climbing or kayaking )
Posts: 4,709
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 50 Post(s)
Liked: 189
Quote:
did you do the treatment all at once, or in stages? I'm wondering if you saw a continuous improvement, or if at some point going darker seemed to no longer help, but continuing got you 'over a hump' and you saw improvement again,


I'm asking because with my room, it seemed like going about 15% of the way got me a huge improvement, then getting to about 50% actually made no improvement, and may have even made it worse. now I'm wondering if there's any reason to go even further. or if it's time to worry about something else

I went in stages myself. I think I'm at the point where further darkening will yield minimal improvement. But, I think treating / darkening strategically important parts of the theater ( as opposed to walls that may not get any reflected light to begin with ) made the most impact - so I worked on those first. I could keep painting walls black, but it's only guaranteed to piss off my wife - nothing more. eek.gif

Craig Peer, AV Science Sales. Direct Line - 585-671-2972
I'm available 8:30am - 4:30pm PST, Monday - Friday Email me at craig@avscience.com
http://shop.avscience.com/
Yes, we sell Home Theater gear right here at AVS !!
JVC, Sony, Epson, DPI, SV Sound, Martin Logan, RBH, Klipsch, and many more!
Craig Peer is offline  
post #646 of 910 Old 02-18-2014, 03:16 PM
AVS Special Member
 
fierce_gt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,080
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 181 Post(s)
Liked: 502
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

I went in stages myself. I think I'm at the point where further darkening will yield minimal improvement. But, I think treating / darkening strategically important parts of the theater ( as opposed to walls that may not get any reflected light to begin with ) made the most impact - so I worked on those first. I could keep painting walls black, but it's only guaranteed to piss off my wife - nothing more. eek.gif

haha, yeah with my room, there was some real 'trouble' areas that I took care of first, and they basically eliminated all the reflected light that was hitting the screen. after that, darkening the room, didn't seem to help on screen performance, it just made the room darker
fierce_gt is offline  
post #647 of 910 Old 02-18-2014, 03:27 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Craig Peer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: In my home theater ( when I'm not rock climbing or kayaking )
Posts: 4,709
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 50 Post(s)
Liked: 189
Quote:
haha, yeah with my room, there was some real 'trouble' areas that I took care of first, and they basically eliminated all the reflected light that was hitting the screen. after that, darkening the room, didn't seem to help on screen performance, it just made the room darker

Then it's time to just enjoy watching movies. I poured a lot of time, effort and money into my theater this last year. Time to reap the rewards !

Craig Peer, AV Science Sales. Direct Line - 585-671-2972
I'm available 8:30am - 4:30pm PST, Monday - Friday Email me at craig@avscience.com
http://shop.avscience.com/
Yes, we sell Home Theater gear right here at AVS !!
JVC, Sony, Epson, DPI, SV Sound, Martin Logan, RBH, Klipsch, and many more!
Craig Peer is offline  
post #648 of 910 Old 02-18-2014, 03:33 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
R Harkness's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 11,857
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Liked: 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

did you do the treatment all at once, or in stages? I'm wondering if you saw a continuous improvement, or if at some point going darker seemed to no longer help, but continuing got you 'over a hump' and you saw improvement again,


I'm asking because with my room, it seemed like going about 15% of the way got me a huge improvement, then getting to about 50% actually made no improvement, and may have even made it worse. now I'm wondering if there's any reason to go even further. or if it's time to worry about something else

I did it in stages as my home theater build progressed.

When the screen was first installed the room had a dark brown felt ceiling, but light walls all around. I could see how the image contrast was being compromised. Adding side velvet curtains for most of the side walls improved contrast a lot and got the contrast and black levels pretty much to where I had hoped they'd be.

I'd say the final addition where I saw improvement was adding a black curtain that pulled across the back (bright) wall (with a whole cut out for the projector light to pass through). Contrast seemed to remain more consistant, rather than slightly washing out as the brightness content in an image altered.

The end result is a real consistency of contrast to the image. All scenes, bright, mixed, dark, look solid and dynamic because the image isn't subtly washing out across varying scenes, as happens with a brighter room.
R Harkness is offline  
post #649 of 910 Old 02-18-2014, 03:34 PM
AVS Special Member
 
buzzard767's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Naples, FL & Wausau, WI
Posts: 3,533
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked: 323
Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post


I'm curious about oled. have we actually experience oled producing 'pure black'? because the only oled screens I've seen have been on phones, and non of them were even close. just wondering if there's really any substance to this claim, or if it's still a pipe dream

LG OLED measured with my Klein K10-A in contact mode.

There was some light in the room and I suspect it "leaked" along the glass.


Buzz
THX Certified Video Calibrator

 

buzzard767 is offline  
post #650 of 910 Old 02-18-2014, 03:49 PM
AVS Special Member
 
zombie10k's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,296
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 34 Post(s)
Liked: 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post


I'm curious about oled. have we actually experience oled producing 'pure black'? because the only oled screens I've seen have been on phones, and non of them were even close. just wondering if there's really any substance to this claim, or if it's still a pipe dream

what phone were you looking at? the Galaxy S4 screen is pitch black. it would be a dream to have a projector capable of doing this...
zombie10k is offline  
post #651 of 910 Old 02-18-2014, 04:07 PM
Advanced Member
 
MadMyers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: USA
Posts: 824
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMyers View Post

Hopefully I'm not bring up something that has already been discussed... And I'm just tossing this out there... happy to hear all the reasons it's a bad/wrong idea smile.gif

I myself have had the black velvet in my theater for 10 years. It was a HUGE improvement over the existing non-treatment (walls). However, I ran across some additional stuff on human perception of light intensity, which made me ask... with regard to material around the screen...

Are we doing it wrong?

Wouldn't a gray velvet (if such a thing exists) be best?

Look at these

http://web.mit.edu/persci/gaz/gaz-teaching/

I'm thinking that gray would make the black levels on the screen look amazing.

Thoughts?


Going all black is much more than just improving your actual image, but making your room disappear as much as possible. The closer to ZERO visual distractions in your field of view, the more immersive the visual experience will be since you don't have ANYTHING else fighting for your visual attention and the best way to do this is black, and black velvet in particular.

Ok.. good points. It's all a trade off.

In my case, it's the black outline of my screen that takes me out of the moment.

Specifically, I think my picture looks great. I'm happy with the black level and the peak white for getting the pop. It's only when I adjust my head and see the outline of the screen is darker than the projected "black" that I lose immersion.

So I believe the answer depends on your goal and equipment. My theory is that having material outside of your screen that matches the black level of your projector, or is slightly brighter, would be optimal. Just a theory... no easy way to create this situation.
MadMyers is offline  
post #652 of 910 Old 02-18-2014, 04:17 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Charles R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Indianapolis
Posts: 9,751
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 157

For me it was more a distracting factor than improving the image. Originally, I had a Firehawk which stood up to the off white ceiling and medium colored walls fairly well. However I found cuts from dark to light scenes distracting as the room would light up dramatically. Pretty much like someone had turned the lights on in the room. Painting the ceiling and walls a darker colored helped a lot. It more or less stopped the room from glowing at times.

 

When I upgraded to a 1080p projector and having no love for the Firehawk's textured surface and off angle viewing I changed to a pure white screen with the smoothest surface I could find. Roughly around then I painted the screen wall flat black and honestly I didn't notice much difference. I preferred the look and was never a fan of the wall color (as when I keep doubling the formula it turned a shade I didn't care for) so when I got the chance I had the walls and ceiling painted flat black. With only the trim being an off white. The rugs are fairly light however and the room certainly isn't a cave.

 

Now bright scenes create a glow limited to directly around the screen and for the large part if feels natural. At times I can still see portions of the room but they don't call attention to themselves. In my mind I know they exist and when they surface my eyes aren't drawn to them. Rather they remain in the background and I remain focused on the image.

Charles R is offline  
post #653 of 910 Old 02-18-2014, 04:18 PM
Toe
AVS Addicted Member
 
Toe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 12,946
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 31 Post(s)
Liked: 400
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMyers View Post

Ok.. good points. It's all a trade off.

In my case, it's the black outline of my screen that takes me out of the moment.

Specifically, I think my picture looks great. I'm happy with the black level and the peak white for getting the pop. It's only when I adjust my head and see the outline of the screen is darker than the projected "black" that I lose immersion.

So I believe the answer depends on your goal and equipment. My theory is that having material outside of your screen that matches the black level of your projector, or is slightly brighter, would be optimal. Just a theory... no easy way to create this situation.


I can certainly understand where you and others are coming from on this and I guess it really depends on goals/equipment of each individual as you mention. Personally, I am OK with seeing the limitations of my projectors' contrast ratio in my nearly all blacked out room since the other benefits that I mention are WELL worth the tradeoff, but that is just me and again I can respect what you are saying and for others it might be worth it to do what you are talking about to get better perceived contrast out of the display. I would certainly be open to checking this experiment out though and it is an interesting thought for sure. smile.gif

JVC 3D: Been there, done that, bought a DLP
Toe is offline  
post #654 of 910 Old 02-19-2014, 10:05 AM
AVS Special Member
 
fierce_gt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,080
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 181 Post(s)
Liked: 502
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

Then it's time to just enjoy watching movies. I poured a lot of time, effort and money into my theater this last year. Time to reap the rewards !

don't worry, I do. I've got close to 500hrs on the bulb now, bought the projector in june.

it's just one of those things(I'm sure we can all understand), it's more fun to watch movies after you made a change/improvement to the room. after a few months, i feel like i NEED to upgrade something, anything, haha. i enjoyed the painting over the summer because it was a huge change in the room, and a cheap and easy one to do. I've been itching to go 7.1 from 5.1 for a while now, but i don't think my room layout really supports that(i basically don't have a back wall, haha)
fierce_gt is offline  
post #655 of 910 Old 02-19-2014, 10:05 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Craig Peer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: In my home theater ( when I'm not rock climbing or kayaking )
Posts: 4,709
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 50 Post(s)
Liked: 189
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMyers View Post

Ok.. good points. It's all a trade off.

In my case, it's the black outline of my screen that takes me out of the moment.

Specifically, I think my picture looks great. I'm happy with the black level and the peak white for getting the pop. It's only when I adjust my head and see the outline of the screen is darker than the projected "black" that I lose immersion.

So I believe the answer depends on your goal and equipment. My theory is that having material outside of your screen that matches the black level of your projector, or is slightly brighter, would be optimal. Just a theory... no easy way to create this situation.


I can certainly understand where you and others are coming from on this and I guess it really depends on goals/equipment of each individual as you mention. Personally, I am OK with seeing the limitations of my projectors' contrast ratio in my nearly all blacked out room since the other benefits that I mention are WELL worth the tradeoff, but that is just me and again I can respect what you are saying and for others it might be worth it to do what you are talking about to get better perceived contrast out of the display. I would certainly be open to checking this experiment out thought and it is an interesting thought for sure

You just need a projector with better on / off contrast ! wink.gif

Craig Peer, AV Science Sales. Direct Line - 585-671-2972
I'm available 8:30am - 4:30pm PST, Monday - Friday Email me at craig@avscience.com
http://shop.avscience.com/
Yes, we sell Home Theater gear right here at AVS !!
JVC, Sony, Epson, DPI, SV Sound, Martin Logan, RBH, Klipsch, and many more!
Craig Peer is offline  
post #656 of 910 Old 02-19-2014, 10:08 AM
AVS Special Member
 
fierce_gt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,080
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 181 Post(s)
Liked: 502
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

LG OLED measured with my Klein K10-A in contact mode.

There was some light in the room and I suspect it "leaked" along the glass.


that's certainly darker than anything i have now, which is GREAT news. but I'm still wondering, in a pitch black room, would you be able to see that?

with my old 46" CRT RPTV, when it was displaying black, i couldn't tell if it were on or off. even with the room completely dark. that's the kind of performance i want again. I'm really tired of having to compromise between watching with ambient lighting or having black levels that make the screen visible at all times
fierce_gt is offline  
post #657 of 910 Old 02-19-2014, 03:15 PM
Toe
AVS Addicted Member
 
Toe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 12,946
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 31 Post(s)
Liked: 400
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

You just need a projector with better on / off contrast ! wink.gif


Agreed and I plan on getting one before this year is over! You guys will get a call from me at some point this year.........just a fair warning! tongue.gif

JVC 3D: Been there, done that, bought a DLP
Toe is offline  
post #658 of 910 Old 02-26-2014, 11:28 AM
AVS Special Member
 
buzzard767's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Naples, FL & Wausau, WI
Posts: 3,533
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked: 323
Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

LG OLED measured with my Klein K10-A in contact mode.

There was some light in the room and I suspect it "leaked" along the glass.


that's certainly darker than anything i have now, which is GREAT news. but I'm still wondering, in a pitch black room, would you be able to see that?

with my old 46" CRT RPTV, when it was displaying black, i couldn't tell if it were on or off. even with the room completely dark. that's the kind of performance i want again. I'm really tired of having to compromise between watching with ambient lighting or having black levels that make the screen visible at all times




I don't know enough about the eye/brain system to answer that but certainly once the eyes adapt to a dark room we can detect down to a very low level. I have a 65" Panasonic VT60 plasma flat panel that measures .00114+ Foot Lamberts and in a fully darkened room it glows more than I would have expected.

Buzz
THX Certified Video Calibrator

 

buzzard767 is offline  
post #659 of 910 Old 02-26-2014, 12:58 PM
AVS Special Member
 
fierce_gt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,080
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 181 Post(s)
Liked: 502
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

I don't know enough about the eye/brain system to answer that but certainly once the eyes adapt to a dark room we can detect down to a very low level. I have a 65" Panasonic VT60 plasma flat panel that measures .00114+ Foot Lamberts and in a fully darkened room it glows more than I would have expected.

yeah, that's been my experience with everything since my last CRT RPTV. it spoiled me, cause honestly even the tube tv's still had a bit of a glow i think(many did anyway). that tv my brother bought, and it was really our first 'high end' tv, and it took a LONG time for me to find a flat panel i could afford that didn't look like utter garbage in comparison.

i'm not too picky about color accuracy, and i've yet to see a tv i thought was dim, but i do really miss the days of watch that tv in a totally dark room and not being able to tell where the screen ended.

anyway, that number sure looks low enough. i assume my CRT wasn't 0, so it's about finding something close enough that my eyes take longer than just a few seconds to adjust to.
fierce_gt is offline  
post #660 of 910 Old 03-01-2014, 12:15 PM
Senior Member
 
humbug2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Farmington Hills MI
Posts: 291
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 15
I have just reviewed this and linked threads and websites. I am contemplating ceiling blackout and found very helpful information. Thanks to all. The other half of my redecorating is a new wall-to-wall rug with a substantial pad. Old age = foot problems, and acoustic damping is wanted.

I remember years ago seeing rugs with very dark, multi-color, complex patterns. They did not show lint, confetti, dirt, or much of anything dropped on them. I am not sure where to start. I do not want to suffer numerous visits to carpet stores and their sales persons (vultures?). Three such visits is about my limit. Price is not an object unless we are talking Ukrainian palace grade.

All ideas are appreciated.

"Most people would die sooner than think, in fact they do so."  Bertrand Russell The ABC of Relativity, 1925

humbug2 is offline  
Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

Tags
Mitsubishi , Panasonic Blu Ray Disc Player Dmp Bd30k , Epson 5020ub Powerlite Home Cinema 3d Front Projector
Gear in this thread

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off