"Black" Theater Improvment Thread (Once you go black you never go back?) - Page 28 - AVS Forum
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post #811 of 1333 Old 05-26-2014, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

Thanks Cardoski.

The rug looks much brighter in the image than it does in real life. Also, black velvet curtains are hidden behind the brown curtains in that shot, so they can be pulled around the whole room to make it into a non-reflective
bat cave. Takes literally about 20 to 30 seconds to change it from the image above to "bat cave." So it's suitably bright for hanging out in the day time, but a "videophile" quality viewing space when watching a movie.
My attempt to have it all. smile.gif

Very nice room and great way of creating a "bad cave."
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post #812 of 1333 Old 05-26-2014, 02:43 PM
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Rich,

What kind of screen are you now using?

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post #813 of 1333 Old 05-26-2014, 03:04 PM
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Rich,

What kind of screen are you now using?

I use a Stewart ST-130 white, 1.3 gain screen.
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post #814 of 1333 Old 05-26-2014, 05:41 PM
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I use a Stewart ST-130 white, 1.3 gain screen.

How well does the 1.3 gain work for you with your screen size and environment?

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post #815 of 1333 Old 05-26-2014, 05:51 PM
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How well does the 1.3 gain work for you with your screen size and environment?

It has worked out very well. It's nice and bright for most content at most image sizes. When I go to 118" or 125" wide I need to crank open my RS57's iris to between -6 to -1 or so, to get a punchy image at that size.

It's been the best compromise I could find between "bright enough" and "very little screen texture" and "wide viewing angles." Most of the time the screen just "disappears."
(My friend uses a Graywolf screen, a gray screen with aggressive optical coating to get it to something like 1.4 gain. The speckly screen texture is so pronounced it is quite distracting
to me. Further, I was very surprised at how much the optical coating affected the clarity of the image. I sold him my previous RS55 so I was really used to how sharp it looked.
But no matter how hard I tried to focus the image on his screen - I could see the blurring of the pixels up close - it's never had that amazing sharpness I got on the ST-130
screen material at home).
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post #816 of 1333 Old 05-26-2014, 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

It has worked out very well. It's nice and bright for most content at most image sizes. When I go to 118" or 125" wide I need to crank open my RS57's iris to between -6 to -1 or so, to get a punchy image at that size.

It's been the best compromise I could find between "bright enough" and "very little screen texture" and "wide viewing angles." Most of the time the screen just "disappears."
(My friend uses a Graywolf screen, a gray screen with aggressive optical coating to get it to something like 1.4 gain. The speckly screen texture is so pronounced it is quite distracting
to me. Further, I was very surprised at how much the optical coating affected the clarity of the image. I sold him my previous RS55 so I was really used to how sharp it looked.
But no matter how hard I tried to focus the image on his screen - I could see the blurring of the pixels up close - it's never had that amazing sharpness I got on the ST-130
screen material at home).

Good to hear. smile.gif

This is my first front projection set-up and I've had everything up and running for almost two months now.

I've come to realize just how crucial and what an impact a screen plays in front projection and your viewing environment.

I had initially purchased the JKP HD Progressive 1.1 gain (2:35, 108" wide) paired with my RS4810. While I really liked the screen and had more than enough brightness with the gain given how dark my room is and how I don't like a very bright image, I started seeing sparkles and shimmering in bright areas of the image. I wasn't even looking for them - it just happened and became annoying to me. The last time I recall seeing such an effect was on a previous Sony SXRD RPTV where that was actually much worse. So, I ended up swapping it out for the their 0.9 gain material and it is a huge improvement. The sparkle is gone. If you look hard for it, at times, you can see just a tad bit of shimmer in bright areas but it's so slight it's not even an issue. I mean you can watch anything and not have it stand out to you like before.

I had gotten screen samples of the Carada Brilliant White and Classic Cinema White. However, even though they are technically a higher gain, they just lacked in imagine quality in comparison to the HD Progressive 0.9 IMO. They looked dimmer, less lively and less vibrant. Color just didn't reflect or "pop" as much. I even showed this to my girlfriend and my calibrator as they agreed. I spent a number of hours looking at different material and various colors projected at the samples on the screen and it always looked that way. I am not saying they are bad screens by any means, but just we all much preferred the HD Pro. It might have even displayed content a hair sharper. Indeed, it must be something with the optical coatings that helps this effect although the HD Pro does have a smooth surface. I also still saw a tiny bit of shimmer with the Brilliant White but no more compared the HD Pro 0.9. I didn't look as hard on the Classic Cinema because that was just not going to work for me based on what I saw.

I also notice blacks are a tiny bit improved with the 0.9 vs the 1.1. I assume this is because of the lower gain and I did lower the light output a bit too. However, after the re-cal to the new material, the calibration turned out just a bit better and color just seems a little better. The color of the screen material of the HD Pro 1.1 and 0.9 is very different. The 1.1 leans more towards a cream color where as the 0.9 leans more toward a grey and is closer to 6500K according to my calibrator.

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post #817 of 1333 Old 05-26-2014, 06:31 PM
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post #818 of 1333 Old 05-26-2014, 07:56 PM
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You're selling your 65" plasma? Not watching it anymore?

It's a great display, but yeah, I just don't watch it much anymore. I used it mostly for movies and had no idea last year when I bought it that I would jump into front projection this year.

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post #819 of 1333 Old 05-26-2014, 08:24 PM
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It's a great display, but yeah, I just don't watch it much anymore. I used it mostly for movies and had no idea last year when I bought it that I would jump into front projection this year.


It really is a step up isn't it. The nicest 60in tv just can't compete with 120in plus screens, especially when you factor in CIH screens. I got my first PJ sight unseen as there is no where with in 20hrs drive for me to see one. Lucky for me I was a member here and was able to make an educated guess. The first time I turned it on I was blown away. lol

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post #820 of 1333 Old 05-26-2014, 08:36 PM
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It really is a step up isn't it. The nicest 60in tv just can't compete with 120in plus screens, especially when you factor in CIH screens. I got my first PJ sight unseen as there is no where with in 20hrs drive for me to see one. Lucky for me I was a member here and was able to make an educated guess. The first time I turned it on I was blown away. lol

The difference is larger than I ever imagined it would be. When I first got my projector before my room was even started on, I projected onto the wall and my jaw dropped. Once the room was finished getting my screen up and projector cal'd, I was just blown away. I still am really and the 'look' of front projection is just so cinematic and cannot be captured on any other type of display.

And you make a very good point - with CIH it just opens up a new world and perspective on scope movies. Also, being able to watch a lot of classic catalog scope titles/favorites is an amazing experience. I mean you get to see how so many of these movies were made for the big screen - epic in some cases. You can experience that and appreciate it - just impossible on a flat panel display. It's something that has to be experienced as words cannot explain it as many of us can relate. smile.gif

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post #821 of 1333 Old 05-26-2014, 08:47 PM
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Yeah, I had a friend over recently to watch a sci-fi movie in scope. He and his wife watch a nice flat panel at home, but after watching on the big screen, in a blacked out room, he says he can't stop thinking about
the experience: "It's like you are IN the movie!"

My sister and her friend said the same about watching Gravity at my place, and then seeing it later on someone else's flat screen. They said it was just completely different, like "just seeing it on TV" vs experiencing it and "seeing all the textures" on the big screen. It's always interesting to see how it effects "non-AVSers" (i.e. sane people) and how they articulate the experiences.
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post #822 of 1333 Old 05-26-2014, 09:08 PM
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Nice, Harkness.

You know you will get such comments when you do it proper, like you have always done. wink.gifsmile.gif

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post #823 of 1333 Old 05-27-2014, 01:50 PM
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no turning back, I just paid for the carpet today. I've been holding out 2 years to do this, mainly waiting to find the right carpet I liked.

this is it, I love it. It's Masland color 889 Charcoal. . it says Charcoal but it's quite black,. surprisingly black, a number of the other samples I saw had a grey tint to them.

It takes 2 weeks to order + 1 for scheduling the setup. This gives me time to start taking everything out the room including my new rack holding all the projectors. uggg... but it's going to be worth it. At least I will be forced to install the remaining butt-kickers in the other seats.

carpet.jpg

carpet2.jpg

That black carpet is going to make a big difference. It sure did in my theater !

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post #824 of 1333 Old 05-30-2014, 03:47 PM
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Rich, I have to give you credit - after just watching movies happily in our theater for the last 3 years, I ran across your theater build thread again here at AVS forum a couple of months ago. For some reason, it gave me the bug to start changing my theater to see if I could darken it enough ( without going to the " every square inch is black velvet " extreme and pissing off my wife ), to create an enviroment where a white screen worked as well or better than my Firehawk. When I reached the point where a StudioTek 130 G3 sample looked as good on really dark scenes as my Firehawk did, I decided to pull the trigger and replace my Firehawk. That required painting my ceiling very dark gray, painting my light gray walls darker gray, totally covering the beige carpet with a wall to wall black rug ( s ), and a few other tricks.

The new StudioTek 130 G3 screen looks absolutely outstanding ! Watched Flight on it Wed. night after installing it. It was almost like looking out a window at the real world. With the Lumis the picture is just top notch. Thank you for inspiring me to get back to work improving my theater. The payoff is more than worth the effort and expense !! Craig smile.gif

PS - the moral of the story is you don't necessarily have to go 100% black - depending on the room, very dark grey flat paint in various shades can work too ( with black velvet around your screen ). You can make a room work and have some WAF too!

Very True, my walls and ceiling arre painted 18% gray (that's 18% down from black) as recommended by Joe Kane. While I do have total control of the HT room and how it's done, I'm not sure I could go black with it...after reading this thread I am thinking of replacing my Burgandy carpet and drapes with Black, and installing motorized curtains to go from just covering my first reflection treatments to also running up the walls to cover my artwork and signed LP jackets during movies.
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post #825 of 1333 Old 05-30-2014, 04:58 PM
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Very True, my walls and ceiling arre painted 18% gray (that's 18% down from black) as recommended by Joe Kane. While I do have total control of the HT room and how it's done, I'm not sure I could go black with it...after reading this thread I am thinking of replacing my Burgandy carpet and drapes with Black, and installing motorized curtains to go from just covering my first reflection treatments to also running up the walls to cover my artwork and signed LP jackets during movies.

My theater is also grey of various shades, although when I try to take a photo of it, it looks much lighter due to the flash. Dark grey paint colors ( flat of course ) works great.

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post #826 of 1333 Old 06-01-2014, 07:42 AM
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My theater is also grey of various shades, although when I try to take a photo of it, it looks much lighter due to the flash. Dark grey paint colors ( flat of course ) works great.

I know what you mean. When I take pictures in my black room, the dark gray sound panels and dark gray bass traps look white in pictures. I have taken pictures of my sound panels (same dark gray cloth) in my family room with light gray walls and they look dark gray in those pictures. It might help if I knew a little more about photography, but in that respect, I am point and shoot. smile.gif

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post #827 of 1333 Old 06-01-2014, 06:07 PM
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I know what you mean. When I take pictures in my black room, the dark gray sound panels and dark gray bass traps look white in pictures. I have taken pictures of my sound panels (same dark gray cloth) in my family room with light gray walls and they look dark gray in those pictures. It might help if I knew a little more about photography, but in that respect, I am point and shoot. smile.gif

Did you try shooting without a flash. If you have a tripod that would help.
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post #828 of 1333 Old 06-01-2014, 06:57 PM
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The other thing to remember is the cameras don't know how bright the image is supposed to be, so they always assume, or adjust for medium grey. This means really bright scenes end up too dark, and dark scenes end up too bright.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #829 of 1333 Old 06-01-2014, 07:02 PM
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No flash = very dark photo. I currently only have a point and shoot camera.

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post #830 of 1333 Old 06-01-2014, 07:27 PM
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No flash = very dark photo. I currently only have a point and shoot camera.

You might be surprised at what your camera is capable of. Put it on a tripod and use a long exposure and the picture can be as bright as you want it, even if the room is dim.

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post #831 of 1333 Old 06-01-2014, 08:47 PM
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I went ahead and ordered Protostar material which comes at 30" in width. Everyone I talked to says it works great and is relatively easy to stick on walls and ceiling. So, I will using it all around the screen at 30" and see how that goes. I might even get a velvet cloth to lie on the floor 30" in front of the screen although I do think I have some extra Duvetyne cloth I could use which I used on my window block out panel. As good as my Rosco paint and black carpeting works, I think these things will improve contrast a bit especially with the ST100 screen I am getting. Even now I do see some side wall reflection/glare from my screen that I think Protostar can really help diminish.

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post #832 of 1333 Old 06-02-2014, 05:34 AM
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No flash = very dark photo.

It's a very dark room right wink.gif

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post #833 of 1333 Old 06-02-2014, 08:33 AM
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Did you try shooting without a flash. If you have a tripod that would help.

Only thing in that room, that I can take a picture of, without flash is the screen, if showing an image. Anything else would not turn out very well, even with the lights on. I have tried it. Now if I was a photographer, and set the camera on a tripod and reduced shutter speed, then I could probably get pics, but I never have been big into photography. I bought my wife a nice camera, Nikon D5100, so it is capable, I just don't use it. smile.gif
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post #834 of 1333 Old 06-02-2014, 08:50 AM
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Only thing in that room, that I can take a picture of, without flash is the screen, if showing an image. Anything else would not turn out very well, even with the lights on. I have tried it. Now if I was a photographer, and set the camera on a tripod and reduced shutter speed, then I could probably get pics, but I never have been big into photography. I bought my wife a nice camera, Nikon D5100, so it is capable, I just don't use it. smile.gif

Set to ISO 1600 or 3200 with the flash off, the Nikon should be able to get a decent photo at long as your try to hold it steady. Even better would be to set it on a tripod and use the lowest ISO setting, but the D5100 has a good enough image sensor that you can get away with high ISO in a web-sized image.

Completely off-topic, but you would be surprised how useful it is to learn how to take a decent picture. I'm always buying and selling home theater and photography gear (my two big hobbies), and posting good-looking images helps me get higher prices. When I was selling my old Onkyo receiver, pictures like this helped it stand out from the rest:




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post #835 of 1333 Old 06-02-2014, 09:09 AM
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Set to ISO 1600 or 3200 with the flash off, the Nikon should be able to get a decent photo at long as your try to hold it steady. Even better would be to set it on a tripod and use the lowest ISO setting, but the D5100 has a good enough image sensor that you can get away with high ISO in a web-sized image.

Completely off-topic, but you would be surprised how useful it is to learn how to take a decent picture. I'm always buying and selling home theater and photography gear (my two big hobbies), and posting good-looking images helps me get higher prices. When I was selling my old Onkyo receiver, pictures like this helped it stand out from the rest:




Yep. When I need really good pictures, I get my brother to take them. Photography is one of his hobbies. smile.gif I still use an old point and shoot Pentax.

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post #836 of 1333 Old 06-02-2014, 09:27 AM
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Only thing in that room, that I can take a picture of, without flash is the screen, if showing an image. Anything else would not turn out very well, even with the lights on. I have tried it. Now if I was a photographer, and set the camera on a tripod and reduced shutter speed, then I could probably get pics, but I never have been big into photography. I bought my wife a nice camera, Nikon D5100, so it is capable, I just don't use it. smile.gif

Then get her to take the pictures wink.gif

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post #837 of 1333 Old 06-02-2014, 09:32 AM
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Yep. When I need really good pictures, I get my brother to take them. Photography is one of his hobbies.

Hmmm...that situation sounds very familiar for some reason. rolleyes.gif

My home theater gallery Epson 5010 Projector, 133" Cinemascope Screen, Klipsch RF-7
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post #838 of 1333 Old 06-14-2014, 11:15 PM
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It's been 3 weeks but my carpet is finally here with the install this upcoming Thursday.

I'm excited to find this specific carpet, it's amazing how much light it soaks up. My 142" 16:9 has a large surface area and lights up the room. After this, the walls are next with the triple black velvet.

there is no going back now. 60+ square yards of black carpet is a commitment...

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post #839 of 1333 Old 06-15-2014, 12:27 AM
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Commitment? It sounds more like a lifestyle... A damn fine one at that.

Home Theater Build in Progress (Contemporary living room, Klipsch RF-7 II 5.2 audio, Sony VPL-HW50ES Projector, Da-Lite 16:9 159" HP, recessed Mid Atlantic rack, etc)
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post #840 of 1333 Old 06-16-2014, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
Quote:Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 

Only thing in that room, that I can take a picture of, without flash is the screen, if showing an image. Anything else would not turn out very well, even with the lights on. I have tried it. Now if I was a photographer, and set the camera on a tripod and reduced shutter speed, then I could probably get pics, but I never have been big into photography. I bought my wife a nice camera, Nikon D5100, so it is capable, I just don't use it.


Then get her to take the pictures
Typical woman, does not ever read the owners manual on anything.

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