"Black" Theater Improvment Thread (Once you go black you never go back?) - Page 34 - AVS Forum
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post #991 of 1150 Old 07-16-2014, 05:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Debonaire View Post
If you aren't going Fidelio velvet, why JoAnnes? Why did you pick that over Sy Fabric?
Have both the sy and joann and the Joann is heavier, thicker and does not wrinkle as much as sy. It is also much more difficult to rip as the backing is more substantial. Before the recent price increase with the proper coupon there was no reason to go with sy unless you wanted more than was available at your local Store or you wanted something easy to work with for covering a screen frame or something of that nature. Once the lights are out you can not tell the difference between the two products. When you grab hold of it to fold up a big piece or look at it in the sun you can tell which one is of higher fiber content.
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post #992 of 1150 Old 07-16-2014, 05:29 AM
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I had both materials here as well and preferred the royalty 3 material for my curtains. I had a 50% coupon and picked up 40+ yards for my project. Even with the price increase, it's marginal @ $10 a yard and was worth it for the heavier material. It's easy to work with and looks great so far.

1 wall down, 3 to go.
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post #993 of 1150 Old 07-16-2014, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
I had both materials here as well and preferred the royalty 3 material for my curtains. I had a 50% coupon and picked up 40+ yards for my project. Even with the price increase, it's marginal @ $10 a yard and was worth it for the heavier material. It's easy to work with and looks great so far.

1 wall down, 3 to go.
I used the 50% off coupon too... My store only had a little over 10 yards though. I hope to see another coupon in a few weeks and get enough to finish off the room.

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post #994 of 1150 Old 07-16-2014, 09:19 AM
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My local store only had 7 yards left, so I used the in-store coupon to order 40 yards. They ordered it from their warehouse and had it here in about 4 business days.

I have 70 yards total now and used 10 already so I have a good amount left for this project. the last roll is going to cover ~ 50 tiles on my ceiling. I am using black fiberglass tiles which looked good.... before I started with the velvet. Now they need the velvet too.
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post #995 of 1150 Old 07-16-2014, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
My local store only had 7 yards left, so I used the in-store coupon to order 40 yards. They ordered it from their warehouse and had it here in about 4 business days.

I have 70 yards total now and used 10 already so I have a good amount left for this project. the last roll is going to cover ~ 50 tiles on my ceiling. I am using black fiberglass tiles which looked good.... before I started with the velvet. Now they need the velvet too.
Do you have a dropped ceiling? I am trying to figure out how to attach velvet to my ceilings too.

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post #996 of 1150 Old 07-16-2014, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by ellisr63 View Post
Did you do velvet on the ceiling too... If so how did you attach it?
Yes I used velvet on the ceiling, that was the biggest improvement, no more reflections from the screen. I used staples, but I used tacks to initially place the velvet so I could get it tight. Once it was how I wanted it I replaced the tacks with staples. The tacks reflected to much, the staples disappear in the velvet.

The triple black velvet form sys is so effective, that I needed to turn on all the lights in the room and bring in a lamp, plus use the flash on the camera just to be able to make the room visible in a picture. Once it is up and as long as it is tight you will not see the velvet while watching your PJ.
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post #997 of 1150 Old 07-16-2014, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by cardoski View Post
Yes I used velvet on the ceiling, that was the biggest improvement, no more reflections from the screen. I used staples, but I used tacks to initially place the velvet so I could get it tight. Once it was how I wanted it I replaced the tacks with staples. The tacks reflected to much, the staples disappear in the velvet.

The triple black velvet form sys is so effective, that I needed to turn on all the lights in the room and bring in a lamp, plus use the flash on the camera just to be able to make the room visible in a picture. Once it is up and as long as it is tight you will not see the velvet while watching your PJ.
Staples hold in drywall?

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post #998 of 1150 Old 07-16-2014, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by ellisr63 View Post
Staples hold in drywall?

Sorry forgot to mention the ceiling has a type of particle board panels, it is in an old rec room built in the 70s. I had also considered making light weight frames to stretch the velvet over and then screw the frames, with velvet attached, into the ceiling. Not sure what staples would do with drywall, might be ok.
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post #999 of 1150 Old 07-16-2014, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by cardoski View Post
Sorry forgot to mention the ceiling has a type of particle board panels, it is in an old rec room built in the 70s. I had also considered making light weight frames to stretch the velvet over and then screw the frames, with velvet attached, into the ceiling. Not sure what staples would do with drywall, might be ok.
I was thinking of maybe getting some thin foam panels and attaching them to the ceiling... The problem is I am also doing acoustic panels in the ceiling. Maybe I can go wall to wall on the acoustic panels (stretch velvet)for the first 8', and then step down to velvet on foam panels after that point?

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post #1000 of 1150 Old 07-16-2014, 10:59 AM
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That sounds like a good plan, it is most critical or beneficial the first 5 ft or so. However I found going all the way to the seats gave that extra bit that seemed to Finnish it off.
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post #1001 of 1150 Old 07-16-2014, 11:04 AM
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Using 1/4 plywood to adhere the velvet to and then using a 18G nail gun to attach the panels.. hit the studs where you can and shoot on an angle into the ceiling Holds fine on Rocklath and should work on drywall. Foam panels work but more expensive, harder to attach, and easy to damage. If you do the nail plywood they can be taken with if you ever move and repair of ceiling once removed is very simple..pull wire brads (nails), spackle and paint..
Seams do not show.
Only thing to keep in mind is velvet has a nap to it, make sure panels have the nap going the same way or some will appear darker than others when bright light hit it.. (day time)
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post #1002 of 1150 Old 07-16-2014, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by airscapes View Post
Using 1/4 plywood to adhere the velvet to and then using a 18G nail gun to attach the panels.. hit the studs where you can and shoot on an angle into the ceiling Holds fine on Rocklath and should work on drywall. Foam panels work but more expensive, harder to attach, and easy to damage. If you do the nail plywood they can be taken with if you ever move and repair of ceiling once removed is very simple..pull wire brads (nails), spackle and paint..
Seams do not show.
Only thing to keep in mind is velvet has a nap to it, make sure panels have the nap going the same way of some will appear darker than others.
My problem is I have double layer of drywall with GG, and hat channels in the ceiling.

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post #1003 of 1150 Old 07-16-2014, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by ellisr63 View Post
My problem is I have double layer of drywall with GG, and hat channels in the ceiling.
If the plywood does not have any warpage, a 1 1/4 18g driving on a 45 with a nail gun (set so the head is just under the velvet it will be fine.. The velvet is only 44 wide so to wrap the panels can only be about 40"x what ever divides evenly for the space you want to fill. I.E. don't make them a 40x 98.. make them smaller so they are lighter.. I would suggest you do as I did, get foam and plywood and make some test panels..
This is 5 panels 40x31 I think and 2 curved left and right
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post #1004 of 1150 Old 07-16-2014, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by airscapes View Post
If the plywood does not have any warpage, a 1 1/4 18g driving on a 45 with a nail gun (set so the head is just under the velvet it will be fine.. The velvet is only 44 wide so to wrap the panels can only be about 40"x what ever divides evenly for the space you want to fill. I.E. don't make them a 40x 98.. make them smaller so they are lighter.. I would suggest you do as I did, get foam and plywood and make some test panels..
This is 5 panels 40x31 I think and 2 curved left and right
Looks great! Thanks for the info... Would pegboard work or do you think it will be too heavy? How thick of foam panels did you use?

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post #1005 of 1150 Old 07-16-2014, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by ellisr63 View Post
Looks great! Thanks for the info... Would pegboard work or do you think it will be too heavy? How thick of foam panels did you use?
Peg board is way to heavy.. I used a 1/4 ply from HD, it was not the Underlayment but the least expensive actual 1/4 ply. I think it was called sani ply or something.. sold a hardwood ply but is more or less imported crap if actually using it for ply wood but was the flattest, lightest and least expensive I could find.
Foam was the stuff you get at the hobby store.. not sure if it was 1/4 or 3/16. It works but you can not work the velvet as tight without bending or bowing the foam and it is rather expensive even at the cheapest places on-line when trying to cover a large area like a 12 1/2 foot wide ceiling.
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post #1006 of 1150 Old 07-16-2014, 12:22 PM
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I bet it is gonna cost $$$$$.

No darned doubt.

But, if not economically feasible for whole-room treatments (go with "generic" nanotubes, there. lol), it might very well be cost effective for treatment to reduce stray light in front projectors' light paths--and this application is particularly interesting as we're apparently near the current limits of black-level reduction with current tech (e.g. JVC's D-ILA secret sauce); perhaps this will enable enhancements of competing tech, i.e. Sony's SXRD (they could use a tiny bit of help regarding black-level reduction, relative to JVC), and especially LCD and DMD. Regarding the latter, this would probably work great masking the chip itself (and therefore stray light/reflections), behind the micro-mirrors.

Hey, but whadda I know, I'm a marketing guy, not an engineer.
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post #1007 of 1150 Old 07-16-2014, 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by ellisr63 View Post
Staples hold in drywall?
Mine's been up for about 6 months with no issues.
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post #1008 of 1150 Old 07-16-2014, 11:17 PM
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Originally Posted by cardoski View Post
I needed to turn on all the lights in the room and bring in a lamp, plus use the flash on the camera just to be able to make the room visible in a picture.
That was/is one of my favorite memories of our build. Needing 2 lamps and flash and the image was still dark, all but the locations directly behind the lamps.
It made some pretty cool pictures.
I even added a 3rd lamp (1 behind each tower) at one point just for the additional image.

Edit: I had this image handy.
There are 3 60 watt bulbs hidden here.
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post #1009 of 1150 Old 07-17-2014, 09:35 AM
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That was/is one of my favorite memories of our build. Needing 2 lamps and flash and the image was still dark, all but the locations directly behind the lamps.
It made some pretty cool pictures.
I even added a 3rd lamp (1 behind each tower) at one point just for the additional image.

Edit: I had this image handy.
There are 3 60 watt bulbs hidden here.
Nice, cool picture.

James Reid:D
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post #1010 of 1150 Old 07-19-2014, 03:09 PM
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saturday afternoon project, painting the eye ball lights. This is a big step in my project, I am getting ready to black out the adjacent wall next to my 142" 16:9 screen. This wall has been reflecting a lot of unwanted light against the screen and it will be great to see it pitch black now.

installing the lights tonight will allow me to remove 2 wall sconces which have been getting in the way of hanging the velvet.





I really like these LED lights I bought at Lowes. They are brighter and have a cleaner white than the yellow 50 watt halogens. Plus they run much cooler so I don't mind leaving them on.

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post #1011 of 1150 Old 07-19-2014, 05:20 PM
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I have some 4" cans and I hate the halogens! They are so fragile and put out a ton of heat . I will replace them eventually with LED's.

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1405815623.998248.jpg
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post #1012 of 1150 Old 07-19-2014, 06:30 PM
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Nice, cool picture.
Reminds me of the Monolith of 2001 A Space Odyssey. Where are the Apes hiding? Are they behind the speakers ready to jump out into the black room?
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post #1013 of 1150 Old 07-19-2014, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
saturday afternoon project, painting the eye ball lights. This is a big step in my project, I am getting ready to black out the adjacent wall next to my 142" 16:9 screen. This wall has been reflecting a lot of unwanted light against the screen and it will be great to see it pitch black now.

installing the lights tonight will allow me to remove 2 wall sconces which have been getting in the way of hanging the velvet.





I really like these LED lights I bought at Lowes. They are brighter and have a cleaner white than the yellow 50 watt halogens. Plus they run much cooler so I don't mind leaving them on.

We have replaced almost every light in the house with LEDs... I love them!

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post #1014 of 1150 Old 07-20-2014, 11:03 PM
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I made some progress tonight and covered up most of the adjacent wall to my screen. The different is dramatic and I'm thrilled with the results so far. I went through some familiar demo content and it's very engaging to see nothing but the screen. Now everything that isn't covered stands out.

This is motivation to keep going.

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post #1015 of 1150 Old 07-21-2014, 03:41 AM
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Looks great. I am sure the difference in the picture is amazing. Love to black carpet and the way everything is turning out. I bet your next project will be some kind of masking system.
Glad you went with the LED's they also look great. The utility company in my area has given a big rebate to anyone who replaces their bulbs with LED's I have replaced most of the lamps in my house. The only one's that I have not replaced yet are 6 Halogens. That is next on the list. What are the dimensions of your room and how large is your screen?

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post #1016 of 1150 Old 07-21-2014, 06:27 AM
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Yep, glad I don't have a dedicated cave like you got going there Zombie.. I would have to buy a JVC.. the planar just wouldn't cut it.. As has been said by others in this thread, it really is a double edged sword.. As much as a little bias light effects the submersion, lack of it can cause uncontrollable black level induced upgraditis..
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post #1017 of 1150 Old 07-21-2014, 08:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
I made some progress tonight and covered up most of the adjacent wall to my screen. The different is dramatic and I'm thrilled with the results so far. I went through some familiar demo content and it's very engaging to see nothing but the screen. Now everything that isn't covered stands out.

This is motivation to keep going.


Whoa, that looks amazing, Zombie. Have you gone mad enough to cover your speakers with velvet yet? (It looks like it, but can't really know from the photo - that was one of my last "had to do" things and it made a serious difference). When you say "it's very engaging to see nothing but the screen" this is
an experience that is hard to really "get" until you have it.

So many people think about this and say "well, so what? when I'm watching a movie all I'm concentrating on is what's on screen anyway. I don't feel I'm distracted by anything, so what's the big deal?"

What this thinking misses is how our our experience of anything is affected by all sorts of factors that we aren't consciously aware of. We often don't understand what those things are until they are removed, and the experience changes.

When we walk around perceiving things, we may be focused on one particular item, say that car ahead of us, but our visual system and brain is nonetheless using much more of the surrounding visual information in our understanding of what we are focusing on - it's size, color, depth relationship to it's surroundings etc. If you start playing with the surrounding information that you aren't "aware of" it turns out you start altering the experience of the very thing you thought you were "only aware of," as countless visual optical illusions show us.

The more you start removing other visual cues from around your screen, the more you realize they made some contribution to your previous viewing experience even if you weren't aware of it at the time.

I've had a number of friends who didn't get the whole "make the room black" thing until they watched movies in my room, and then they tell me literally weeks after that they keep thinking about how great the "experience" was - "more like I was IN the movie or something" being a common description.

Which is why I think the removal of competing visual cues around the projected image is just as much a benefit of "going black" as cutting down the light reflections/maintaining image contrast.
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post #1018 of 1150 Old 07-21-2014, 09:23 AM
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I still have quite a bit of work to do. The speakers are definitely getting covered and I'm also building a stage which will get covered as well.

I had a friend over last night who I built a theater room for. 110" 2.4 HP + Sony HW30 and stadium seating with 8 seats. He didn't want to treat his room, it's basically a beige room with brown carpets. He couldn't believe the difference. We celebrated by watching the Black Sabbath concert which is quite dark and gritty. A concert where the JVC's do what they do best.. low APL excellence.

There are distraction in most rooms, folks just aren't aware until it's removed from sight. I have enormous respect for the dedicated build threads, some of the decor is remarkable. for hardcore video enthusiasts though, there is a way to make a black pit classy looking and get the intended results which is no reflections to distract and more importantly, maximize the contrast.

@ rwestley - thanks for the comments. The screen is 142" 16:9, I do have manual masks that I haven't finished yet but will after this project. This room is ~ 20 x 30.
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post #1019 of 1150 Old 07-21-2014, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
I still have quite a bit of work to do. The speakers are definitely getting covered and I'm also building a stage which will get covered as well.

I had a friend over last night who I built a theater room for. 110" 2.4 HP + Sony HW30 and stadium seating with 8 seats. He didn't want to treat his room, it's basically a beige room with brown carpets. He couldn't believe the difference. We celebrated by watching the Black Sabbath concert which is quite dark and gritty. A concert where the JVC's do what they do best.. low APL excellence.

There are distraction in most rooms, folks just aren't aware until it's removed from sight. I have enormous respect for the dedicated build threads, some of the decor is remarkable. for hardcore video enthusiasts though, there is a way to make a black pit classy looking and get the intended results which is no reflections to distract and more importantly, maximize the contrast.

@ rwestley - thanks for the comments. The screen is 142" 16:9, I do have manual masks that I haven't finished yet but will after this project. This room is ~ 20 x 30.
I really appreciate all your reviews and posts. I only wish I had a room that large. It must be amazing. I know you will really enjoy it. I have a JVC4910 and a Benq 1070 in my setup.
I used black felt for the walls and Rosco paint for the ceiling. It is not as black as velvet but it will do until I get the bug again.
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post #1020 of 1150 Old 07-21-2014, 03:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
The more you start removing other visual cues from around your screen, the more you realize they made some contribution to your previous viewing experience even if you weren't aware of it at the time.

Which is why I think the removal of competing visual cues around the projected image is just as much a benefit of "going black" as cutting down the light reflections/maintaining image contrast.
I understand your point of view however at the same time I don't feel visual cues are by nature competing, distracting and necessarily take away from the experience. Rather I think at times they can enhance it. As a rather bad example if I had an Oscar on either side of the screen which was softly lit I'm guessing my experience would be enhanced. The same viewing a painting in a nicely furnished room would increase my enjoyment. Not to mention how the appropriate frame improves the painting. Seeing it in total darkness wouldn't be as engulfing. Our surroundings can be just as much of a positive as a negative... in a lot of ways.

Last edited by Charles R; 07-21-2014 at 03:58 PM.
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