"Black" Theater Improvment Thread (Once you go black you never go back?) - Page 35 - AVS Forum
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post #1021 of 1167 Old 07-21-2014, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
I made some progress tonight and covered up most of the adjacent wall to my screen. The different is dramatic and I'm thrilled with the results so far. I went through some familiar demo content and it's very engaging to see nothing but the screen. Now everything that isn't covered stands out.

This is motivation to keep going.




Excellent job! I'll bet the Sony 1100 totally rocks in there now!

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post #1022 of 1167 Old 07-21-2014, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Charles R View Post
I understand your point of view however at the same time I don't feel visual cues are by nature competing, distracting and necessarily take away from the experience. Rather I think at times they can enhance it. As a rather bad example if I had an Oscar on either side of the screen which was softly lit I'm guessing my experience would be enhanced. The same viewing a painting in a nicely furnished room would increase my enjoyment. Not to mention how the appropriate frame improves the painting. Seeing it in total darkness wouldn't be as engulfing. Our surroundings can be just as much of a positive as a negative... in a lot of ways.
I agree, my main point being that even when we think we are focused on one element in our view, typically other things in view are contributing to the experience. As you point out, it can enhance or detract, all depending on what your goal is. My goal is a sense of immersion and focus on the image, and the best sense of depth I can get out of 2D, and I find
removing other visual cues from around the image aids that goal.

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post #1023 of 1167 Old 07-21-2014, 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
I agree, my main point being that even when we think we are focused on one element in our view, typically other things in view are contributing to the experience.
I understand. I also think our mind (or state of mind) plays a large part as well. I think I can safely say I find more improvement in my "experience" from knowing my room has been painted black than the actual difference with it being painted.

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post #1024 of 1167 Old 07-22-2014, 12:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
I agree, my main point being that even when we think we are focused on one element in our view, typically other things in view are contributing to the experience. As you point out, it can enhance or detract, all depending on what your goal is. My goal is a sense of immersion and focus on the image, and the best sense of depth I can get out of 2D, and I find
removing other visual cues from around the image aids that goal.
I know I'm a heck of a lot more distracted when my white/tan dog walks into the roof than I am when my black dog does.




then again, the black one tends to just lie down in a corner, the white/tan one drops a tennis ball on my lap and climbs all over the chairs from the raised platform behind them... haha




but I love the feeling of looking up and seeing nothing... absolutely no sense of the ceiling even being there. someday i'll do the velvet thing and hope to get that feeling with the walls and carpet too. I think it would be really appealing to just see the screen, floating in the vastness of space all around it
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post #1025 of 1167 Old 07-22-2014, 05:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles R View Post
I understand your point of view however at the same time I don't feel visual cues are by nature competing, distracting and necessarily take away from the experience. Rather I think at times they can enhance it. As a rather bad example if I had an Oscar on either side of the screen which was softly lit I'm guessing my experience would be enhanced. The same viewing a painting in a nicely furnished room would increase my enjoyment. Not to mention how the appropriate frame improves the painting. Seeing it in total darkness wouldn't be as engulfing. Our surroundings can be just as much of a positive as a negative... in a lot of ways.
As far as HT goes, I am going to respectfully disagree with you. The closer you get to ZERO visual distractions in your field of vision, the closer you get to 100% total immersion into whatever you are viewing. It amazes me in my HT seeing how much impact even small changes have made like putting protostar on my sound panel black reflective frames. You don't realize how much of a distraction something like this is until you cover it up! I still have a few spots left to do and the rest of my ceiling (just painted flat black right now which doesn't cut it compared to the velvet), but each step toward total black out improves the experience IMO.


Zombie, looks awesome!

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post #1026 of 1167 Old 07-22-2014, 05:30 AM
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You don't realize how much of a distraction something like this is until you cover it up!
This part I have to disagree with (for me). My room has evolved over the years through multiple changes so I'm well aware of how they influence my experience. The biggest being a few sound panels. As I have posted before I understand and don't necessarily disagree with the concept however at the same time I think the attention deficit disorder for anything visible is self-induced to a large degree. Such that it is more a mental distraction one has in the desire to cover it up versus its inherent distraction.

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post #1027 of 1167 Old 07-22-2014, 05:49 AM
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Been gone for a bit, so I don't know if this has been posted anywhere on the forum yet...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/sc...t-9602504.html

Wonder if any of the "well to do" will be putting this in their HT's?
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post #1028 of 1167 Old 07-22-2014, 05:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles R View Post
This part I have to disagree with (for me). My room has evolved over the years through multiple changes so I'm well aware of how they influence my experience. The biggest being a few sound panels. As I have posted before I understand and don't necessarily disagree with the concept however at the same time I think the attention deficit disorder for anything visible is self-induced to a large degree. Such that it is more a mental distraction one has in the desire to cover it up versus its inherent distraction.
My experience has been much different and I don't feel it's self induced. Also, my comment was just in reference to small changes. Large changes such as going from light to dark carpet for example are much more significant and dramatic. I always cringe seeing light carpet, walls, etc.... in a HT, not to mention pictures, posters and any other visual distraction that fights for your attention with the presentation. It all depends on what your goals are though as not everyone wants a black pit for their HT.

My ceiling and a few select areas on my wall that just have black paint right now are next. Just need to find a conversion calculator to figure out how much that thin velvet will cost me that Rich posted a while back.

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post #1029 of 1167 Old 07-22-2014, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles R View Post
This part I have to disagree with (for me). My room has evolved over the years through multiple changes so I'm well aware of how they influence my experience. The biggest being a few sound panels. As I have posted before I understand and don't necessarily disagree with the concept however at the same time I think the attention deficit disorder for anything visible is self-induced to a large degree. Such that it is more a mental distraction one has in the desire to cover it up versus its inherent distraction.
I think it's a fair point that you raise. And it's the nature of the "enthusiast" to make mountains out of mole-hills.

However, I find support for this concept not only through my own experimenting and perception, but through the reactions of other people as well.

I started doing these types of experiments with my very basic ED resolution Panasonic plasma, years ago. Once I started masking it for 2:35:1 content, and then adding a pitch black curtain behind it when watching movies, erasing the visible background, I was just amazed at how much more vivid and immersive it seemed to make the image.

The thing is, visitors tended to have the same reactions. They were so blown away (watching under the conditions above) by the image, even though a number of them owned newer, better plasmas, that they thought I had some sort of "special" display or something. Because they'd never experienced an image quite like it. What they were experiencing was really the culmination of my paying attention to the method of presentation, to enhance the qualities of the image - going to a degree they had not experienced before. Not knowing why it looked so much better, they simply attributed it to the plasma itself. (I still to this day have people telling me they never experienced a better flat panel image).

The same has been playing out in my home theater. A number of the people who see movies in my home theater either have projection set ups themselves, or have other friends with projectors, yet I continually am told how much more effective and immersive the experience seems to be at my place. Often they can't articulate exactly why, but speak of the focus and being "in the movie" sensation they get, that they don't experience elsewhere.

Having experimented with presentation for so long, I believe I know why. Unlike in their homes, I've gone to greater lengths to maximize the focus on the image, which pays such dividends.

For most people.
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post #1030 of 1167 Old 07-22-2014, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post
My experience has been much different and I don't feel it's self induced. Also, my comment was just in reference to small changes. Large changes such as going from light to dark carpet for example are much more significant and dramatic. I always cringe seeing light carpet, walls, etc.... in a HT, not to mention pictures, posters and any other visual distraction that fights for your attention with the presentation. It all depends on what your goals are though as not everyone wants a black pit for their HT.

My ceiling and a few select areas on my wall that just have black paint right now are next. Just need to find a conversion calculator to figure out how much that thin velvet will cost me that Rich posted a while back.

I was able to replace my grey screens with white screens, and have dark / black scenes look as good or better on the white screens, by replacing beige carpet with jet black carpet, and painting all " first reflection points " ( light wise, off the screen ) black, dark dark grey, or black velvet. And the ceiling. Made a big difference on the screen itself.
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post #1031 of 1167 Old 07-22-2014, 11:33 AM
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During my home theater build, after testing various screen materials, including full screens, once I got my Stewart ST-130 I could immediately see the quality of that screen material - in my set up there was a great combination of smoothness, clarity, vividness and excepting the really dark scenes, contrast looked great.

That said, it really did seem like it took a while to get a fully satisfying image in terms of black levels/contrast for all scenes. The more I treated the room the closer I came to maintaining all those great qualities while holding on to good black levels throughout scenes, until I finally got the whole package. Once room reflections were tamed, the sense of contrast remained consistent, black levels staying deep and not fluxuating depending on the scenes etc. When I see demos of gray screens, e.g. the Firehawks or the Black Diamonds, I find I'm getting at least as good looking black levels but with a greater overall sense of "brightness" and image vividness throughout. Which is why, if I can do it, I'd always choose a similar quality white screen and treat the room vs using a specialty screen to combat reflections. (Not that a gray screen can't be used to get a similarly bright image, certainly it can given the right projector lumens/screen size etc. But treating the room allows you to not minimize living with the types of compromises that often go along with gray screens with gain).

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post #1032 of 1167 Old 07-22-2014, 01:01 PM
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However, I find support for this concept not only through my own experimenting and perception, but through the reactions of other people as well.
My experience has largely been the opposite. The darker the room the quicker they fall asleep. Again I don't disagree presentation plays a large role in one's experience and enjoyment. However I think some of the reaction you describe is the result of several factors. One merely being the obvious effort you have taken to present the experience. What goes into the experience is more than the actual viewing and the effort you have taken carries itself into the viewing.

I see several others but it's not really the thread for such and overall I completely agree with the underlining concept I simply don't think it's so black and white. As in the darker the room, the less you see guarantees a better experience. And one's mindset plays a larger degree than the environment itself.

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post #1033 of 1167 Old 07-22-2014, 01:13 PM
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My experience has largely been the opposite.
That's why it's valuable having your input. The more people experimenting and tweaking this stuff, the more we learn.
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post #1034 of 1167 Old 07-22-2014, 01:40 PM
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My experience has largely been the opposite. The darker the room the quicker they fall asleep.

Turn up the volume until that action movie could wake the dead ( or reference level - which ever comes first ) !!
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post #1035 of 1167 Old 07-22-2014, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
I made some progress tonight and covered up most of the adjacent wall to my screen. The different is dramatic and I'm thrilled with the results so far. I went through some familiar demo content and it's very engaging to see nothing but the screen. Now everything that isn't covered stands out.

This is motivation to keep going.

Looks good, it really does bring it all to another level when the room disappears. I imagine your image must be very bright with that screen.
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post #1036 of 1167 Old 07-23-2014, 08:49 AM
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Well, I've read through the entire thread. Thanks to all who have contributed and answered questions. It's be a fun exercise seeing everyone's progress and results!!

Here's where I'm at. Baby step of buying some R3 velvet from Joanns to create a sleeve to go over the outside of my front speakers. Laid some scrap velvet (hoader in me kept the velvet from a previous project ), and was impressed by how the speakers disappeared in a dark room.

Now the big undertaking. We are removing the two windows in our room. Here's the steps I am going to take after the remodeling:

1) Create pressure R3 velvet frames for the screenwall. Use either velvet wrapped gator board or thin plywood (thanks airscapes) ceiling panels for the first 4 feet (right before I hit the can lights 4ft out). Paint the remaining ceiling using undetermined black paint (ceiling needs a repaint).

Down the road....looking at fabricmate panels for the other three walls. This will probably happen next year.

I've attached two pics of the room. Any suggestions, alternatives to my plan or thoughts are appreciated.

Ron
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post #1037 of 1167 Old 07-23-2014, 09:04 AM
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Well, I've read through the entire thread. Thanks to all who have contributed and answered questions. It's be a fun exercise seeing everyone's progress and results!!

Here's where I'm at. Baby step of buying some R3 velvet from Joanns to create a sleeve to go over the outside of my front speakers. Laid some scrap velvet (hoader in me kept the velvet from a previous project ), and was impressed by how the speakers disappeared in a dark room.

Now the big undertaking. We are removing the two windows in our room. Here's the steps I am going to take after the remodeling:

1) Create pressure R3 velvet frames for the screenwall. Use either velvet wrapped gator board or thin plywood (thanks airscapes) ceiling panels for the first 4 feet (right before I hit the can lights 4ft out). Paint the remaining ceiling using undetermined black paint (ceiling needs a repaint).

Down the road....looking at fabricmate panels for the other three walls. This will probably happen next year.

I've attached two pics of the room. Any suggestions, alternatives to my plan or thoughts are appreciated.

Ron

Nice room, I think you are going to be very happy putting up velvet, you will be shocked at how much of a difference it will make. The panels sound like an excellent idea, I to am going to make covers for my new speakers. Did you cover the back as well or do the covers only go over the sides?

James Reid:D
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post #1038 of 1167 Old 07-23-2014, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by rboster View Post
Well, I've read through the entire thread. Thanks to all who have contributed and answered questions. It's be a fun exercise seeing everyone's progress and results!!

Here's where I'm at. Baby step of buying some R3 velvet from Joanns to create a sleeve to go over the outside of my front speakers. Laid some scrap velvet (hoader in me kept the velvet from a previous project ), and was impressed by how the speakers disappeared in a dark room.

Now the big undertaking. We are removing the two windows in our room. Here's the steps I am going to take after the remodeling:

1) Create pressure R3 velvet frames for the screenwall. Use either velvet wrapped gator board or thin plywood (thanks airscapes) ceiling panels for the first 4 feet (right before I hit the can lights 4ft out). Paint the remaining ceiling using undetermined black paint (ceiling needs a repaint).

Down the road....looking at fabricmate panels for the other three walls. This will probably happen next year.

I've attached two pics of the room. Any suggestions, alternatives to my plan or thoughts are appreciated.

Ron

Your room already looks pretty good. I'll be interested to see how much darker you can get it. How dark does it look with just the screen lit up with a movie currently ?

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post #1039 of 1167 Old 07-23-2014, 09:09 AM
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I see several others but it's not really the thread for such and overall I completely agree with the underlining concept I simply don't think it's so black and white. As in the darker the room, the less you see guarantees a better experience. And one's mindset plays a larger degree than the environment itself.
To lesser enthusiasts room conditions are less important. Reflections will absolutely kill contrast, so in order to gain the best picture quality this has to be minimized in a dedicated room. Masking further enhances the experience by having the image floating in a sea of black which causes complete emergence into the picture. But you are right there are degrees of things that can be done. For example I have painted walls with a flat black paint, but I haven't gone so far as to wrap my speakers in black velvet.
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post #1040 of 1167 Old 07-23-2014, 11:22 AM
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Nice room, I think you are going to be very happy putting up velvet, you will be shocked at how much of a difference it will make. The panels sound like an excellent idea, I to am going to make covers for my new speakers. Did you cover the back as well or do the covers only go over the sides?
The velvet sleeve will cover the sides and (most important) the top. Both sides of the sleeve will sit under the speaker which is on a speaker stand.
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post #1041 of 1167 Old 07-23-2014, 11:29 AM
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Nice room, I think you are going to be very happy putting up velvet, you will be shocked at how much of a difference it will make. The panels sound like an excellent idea, I to am going to make covers for my new speakers. Did you cover the back as well or do the covers only go over the sides?
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Your room already looks pretty good. I'll be interested to see how much darker you can get it. How dark does it look with just the screen lit up with a movie currently ?
The speakers definitely reflected light back on the screen. The sidewalls to some extent, but the fact I am using a curved screen helps. I also have two large real traps (bass traps) mounted on each side/wall of the screen. This helps to some degree to absorb light. The ceiling is probably the biggest culprit.

I am hoping to incorporate the acoustic treatment within the frabricmate panels....for a more pleasing cleaner look. Currently the walls are painted with Benj. Moore gray (with the obvious exception of the screen wall, which I am using a flat matte sherwin williams black paint.

I also think removing the star wars framed insert style posters that hang near the screen will help too (I don't know that non-glare glass has much difference in terms of light reflecting back towards the screen wall?
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post #1042 of 1167 Old 07-23-2014, 12:11 PM
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Will painting the wall behind my AT screen make a difference? Currently the wall is just drywall, about 6' behind the screen.

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post #1043 of 1167 Old 07-23-2014, 12:37 PM
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stick your head back there and see if the wall lights up.. if so.. then yes!
If you look at most build threads in the Dedicated room forum, everything behind af AT screen get made flat black so you don't see reflections though the screen.. and you don't light up the back of the screen.
Think about mixed scenes with half the image sunlight and the other half dark shade.. if the light that passes through the screen reflects off the wall back on the dark areas from behind.. ...

Doug

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post #1044 of 1167 Old 07-23-2014, 01:09 PM
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I also think removing the star wars framed insert style posters that hang near the screen will help too (I don't know that non-glare glass has much difference in terms of light reflecting back towards the screen wall?

Maybe move them to the back of the theater and put them on the side walls if you don't want to lose them entirely.

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post #1045 of 1167 Old 07-23-2014, 01:53 PM
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Maybe move them to the back of the theater and put them on the side walls if you don't want to lose them entirely.

I'll do something with them until I go panels on all walls, then I'll either store or sell them.

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post #1046 of 1167 Old 07-23-2014, 09:16 PM
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If anyone is looking for the Joann Royalty 3, there are a few coupons here ->>>>>>>

They have a 50% off coupon for in-store or online. I ordered another 50 yards, it's going quicker than I expected. the 44" width is really around 36" once I arrange it on the curtain rod so it presents a nice ripple. I want it to look like curtains so that's going to cost extra. Plus I want enough to cover all 50 tiles. These black tiles are quite nice but they don't compare to the velvet so now I have no choice but to cover them.


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post #1047 of 1167 Old 07-24-2014, 12:15 AM
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If anyone is looking for the Joann Royalty 3, there are a few coupons here ->>>>>>>

They have a 50% off coupon for in-store or online. I ordered another 50 yards, it's going quicker than I expected. the 44" width is really around 36" once I arrange it on the curtain rod so it presents a nice ripple. I want it to look like curtains so that's going to cost extra. Plus I want enough to cover all 50 tiles. These black tiles are quite nice but they don't compare to the velvet so now I have no choice but to cover them.
Thanks for the codes... When I try to get the Royalty velvet it says "Sorry, this item is unavailable."

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post #1048 of 1167 Old 07-24-2014, 10:06 AM
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If anyone is looking for the Joann Royalty 3, there are a few coupons here ->>>>>>>

They have a 50% off coupon for in-store or online. I ordered another 50 yards, it's going quicker than I expected. the 44" width is really around 36" once I arrange it on the curtain rod so it presents a nice ripple. I want it to look like curtains so that's going to cost extra. Plus I want enough to cover all 50 tiles. These black tiles are quite nice but they don't compare to the velvet so now I have no choice but to cover them.

Blacking out ones theater is a slippery slope, isn't it !


Which reminds me - when is my wife going out of town on business - I've got more walls to paint flat black !
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post #1049 of 1167 Old 07-24-2014, 11:02 AM - Thread Starter
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I almost feel responsible for what has happened within this thread... But zombie10K can now say he has the darkest theater.

Time to get a seamstress to make you some black velvet suits for you and your guests!
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post #1050 of 1167 Old 07-24-2014, 11:58 AM
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I almost feel responsible for what has happened within this thread... But zombie10K can now say he has the darkest theater.

Time to get a seamstress to make you some black velvet suits for you and your guests!
That is too expensive. I just supply a Ninja costume for each of my guests.
http://www.halloweenexpress.com/ninj...me-p-4101.html
Of course, I expect every upstanding AVS member to have their own.
Does not come with the weapon, which is a good thing in a theater.

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