"Black" Theater Improvment Thread (Once you go black you never go back?) - Page 38 - AVS Forum
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post #1111 of 1340 Old 07-27-2014, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
Given the alarming number of people desiring to regularly sit through 3 hours of hobbits running around, we have a much larger societal issue to deal with first.
Agree with both you, Rich, and Mark: once was enough for me with Gravity, and I barely made it through the Hobbit. One movie that I do enjoy re-watching is The DaVinci Code (and the Man Who Shot Liberty Valence and The Enemy Blow).
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post #1112 of 1340 Old 07-27-2014, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by millerwill View Post
Agree with both you, Rich, and Mark: once was enough for me with Gravity, and I barely made it through the Hobbit. One movie that I do enjoy re-watching is The DaVinci Code (and the Man Who Shot Liberty Valence and The Enemy Blow).
I can watch Jim Henson' s Labyrinth over and over. What's really weird is that Bluray is the only one which loads. All other discs give unknown or no disc messages. I'm serious. I tried all 300 of my Blurays.
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post #1113 of 1340 Old 07-27-2014, 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
So, with all of the talk of how good the velvet works, is it worth velveting over my Protostar material? Protostar seems to do a good enough job soaking up sidewall reflections from my Stewart ST100 (as the blacks and contrast are just outstanding paired with my RS4810), but just wondering.
Hi David. Reducing or essentially reducing sidewall and floor and ceiling reflectivity has a great deal to do with your blacks or black reference level. But it has almost nothing to do with improving your on/off contrast performance. It will improve your already native (aimed into the lens) ANSI contrast and less severe real life contrast when light and dark areas are present in a scene. Reflectivity has no affect on on off contrast ratios and one will benefit from higher on offs even in high reflectivity rooms. ANSI will go up in a black pit. What you get is darker blacks.


Having a non reflective room will enable one to use a better performing screen with a very wide half angle. This means a unity gain screen, made right and from the right materials screen artifacts will be eliminated and your screen can disappear giving one an open window effect.

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post #1114 of 1340 Old 07-27-2014, 09:59 PM
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Mark,

Have you ever seen a good professional paint Sherwin Williams or Behr screen? I know you used to be a CRT guy. There must've been at least one guy who mastered the spray gun. The main issue is uniformity and color shifting which a good paint job will match the Studiotek 100. You don't have to spend thousands to get 99.9% of the Stewart. Even if you pick up a contractor hanging outside Home Depot to do it for you, there's about a $1,000 or more savings. Unless having a metal frame is important for some reason.
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post #1115 of 1340 Old 07-27-2014, 11:14 PM
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post
You definitely need to wrap the center speaker with velvet.
anything reflective will get covered, I went crazy and ordered another 60 yards today at the store so I have plenty for the rest of this project.

The biggest gain so far is the intense sense of immersion. This is hard to put a description on until one sees no visible reflections in direct or peripheral vision. We had some guests over tonight and they immediately commented on how dark the room looked even when the screen was fully lit up. We watched scenes from Oblivion and Skyfall on the JVC and Frozen 3D on the Sharp 30K which looks amazing.

so while I can't decide which projector to settle on (the more the merrier), this is one decision that I have no regrets... I feel like watching all my favorite movies again.
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post #1116 of 1340 Old 07-28-2014, 08:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Debonaire View Post
Mark,

Have you ever seen a good professional paint Sherwin Williams or Behr screen? I know you used to be a CRT guy. There must've been at least one guy who mastered the spray gun. The main issue is uniformity and color shifting which a good paint job will match the Studiotek 100. You don't have to spend thousands to get 99.9% of the Stewart. Even if you pick up a contractor hanging outside Home Depot to do it for you, there's about a $1,000 or more savings. Unless having a metal frame is important for some reason.
Where a kevlar vest if you ask one of those contractors to show you their contractor license.

In my opinion, a painted screen is a budget issue and does not come anywhere close to a high quality low gain professional screen. This is the wrong forum to discuss but there are many many reasons. Bight if you want some gain, don't have the money, I suppose its acceptable, anything is acceptable depending on the acceptor.
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post #1117 of 1340 Old 07-28-2014, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
Hi David. Reducing or essentially reducing sidewall and floor and ceiling reflectivity has a great deal to do with your blacks or black reference level. But it has almost nothing to do with improving your on/off contrast performance. It will improve your already native (aimed into the lens) ANSI contrast and less severe real life contrast when light and dark areas are present in a scene. Reflectivity has no affect on on off contrast ratios and one will benefit from higher on offs even in high reflectivity rooms. ANSI will go up in a black pit. What you get is darker blacks.


Having a non reflective room will enable one to use a better performing screen with a very wide half angle. This means a unity gain screen, made right and from the right materials screen artifacts will be eliminated and your screen can disappear giving one an open window effect.
That makes sense.

I just wonder with Protostar vs velvet if it's just cutting hairs in this case.

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post #1118 of 1340 Old 07-28-2014, 08:38 AM
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I have a couple of questions while working on my black hole room:


1) I do not sew, but trying to get a clean edge using the Joann R3 velvet to wrap around my speakers (sides and tops). I used gaffers tape...so so results. Any suggestions on non-sewing seams working with the velvet edges (for a clean look)? If push comes to shove...I would be willing to hire to sew the "speaker covers".

2) I feel a little foolish asking this....but here is goes. I plan on using art canvass stretchers (basically frames) to create my screen wall velvet panels. A tad more expensive, than buying the lumber for HD etc (but I don't have the tools and feel like a douche asking HD to do all the cutting for me). This way I know I am getting easy to assemble framing with quality corners. All that being said, To have pressure fit assembling without warping the frame, is there a rule of thumb for the measurements? Using exact ceiling to carpeted floor, quarter inch more or quarter inch less? Is there a fudge factor? I assume better to come up a tad short then a tad too big (causing the panel to bend/warp). Any tricks of the trade if you come up a tad short? My guess is a thin "slice" of wood painted black or wrapped in velvet used to wedge in the top/bottom to hold into place? Sorry...dumb questions...but want to make sure I order the correct size the first time.

Thanks
Ron
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post #1119 of 1340 Old 07-28-2014, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Debonaire View Post
Furring strips are cheap. Hang each 2'x4' panel with string. That's what I'm doing once I can convince the wife to let me spend the $900 for the strips and fabric. The hard part is the time to make the panels.
When I rework my front wall, I will have the 3" deep panel from there to use on the ceiling. Mounting is no problem. I use slotted "L" clips. You attach the "L" clip to a stud or joist using the slotted hole. You space them just wide enough to fit the panel in between the clips. Then you screw the other leg of the clip into the side or top and bottom of the panel. That is how I have all of my panels mounted. Here is a pic from another room.
[IMG][/IMG]

If you look real close at the pictures, you can see a tiny bump out at the bottom, where the clip and screw is located.
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post #1120 of 1340 Old 07-28-2014, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rboster View Post
I have a couple of questions while working on my black hole room:


1) I do not sew, but trying to get a clean edge using the Joann R3 velvet to wrap around my speakers (sides and tops). I used gaffers tape...so so results. Any suggestions on non-sewing seams working with the velvet edges (for a clean look)? If push comes to shove...I would be willing to hire to sew the "speaker covers".

2) I feel a little foolish asking this....but here is goes. I plan on using art canvass stretchers (basically frames) to create my screen wall velvet panels. A tad more expensive, than buying the lumber for HD etc (but I don't have the tools and feel like a douche asking HD to do all the cutting for me). This way I know I am getting easy to assemble framing with quality corners. All that being said, To have pressure fit assembling without warping the frame, is there a rule of thumb for the measurements? Using exact ceiling to carpeted floor, quarter inch more or quarter inch less? Is there a fudge factor? I assume better to come up a tad short then a tad too big (causing the panel to bend/warp). Any tricks of the trade if you come up a tad short? My guess is a thin "slice" of wood painted black or wrapped in velvet used to wedge in the top/bottom to hold into place? Sorry...dumb questions...but want to make sure I order the correct size the first time.

Thanks
Ron
For sharp no sew corners on the speaker covers, you can cut foam core boards to the size of the speaker sides and adhere the velvet to the panel, carefully wrapping around to the back side. then use a couple of stick on velcro fasteners to hold them on. Do the top last so you can get a nice fit over the side pieces. Use 3M 77 adhesive to mount the velvet. Spray both the core and the back of the velvet, let sit for 60 seconds and then apply. Do small test pieces first to get the hang of it..

Not sure what you are asking in #2 .. I think you are asking on how big to make the wall frames? The way I did my ceiling was to measure the width in inches and see what would divide into it evenly. Then subtract about 1/8" from each side of the panel that butts to the next for the wrapped velvet. If you start at the ceiling and are short at the floor no worries.

I guess for wall you could do one giant frame ceiling to floor..
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post #1121 of 1340 Old 07-28-2014, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rboster View Post
I have a couple of questions while working on my black hole room:


1) I do not sew, but trying to get a clean edge using the Joann R3 velvet to wrap around my speakers (sides and tops). I used gaffers tape...so so results. Any suggestions on non-sewing seams working with the velvet edges (for a clean look)? If push comes to shove...I would be willing to hire to sew the "speaker covers".

2) I feel a little foolish asking this....but here is goes. I plan on using art canvass stretchers (basically frames) to create my screen wall velvet panels. A tad more expensive, than buying the lumber for HD etc (but I don't have the tools and feel like a douche asking HD to do all the cutting for me). This way I know I am getting easy to assemble framing with quality corners. All that being said, To have pressure fit assembling without warping the frame, is there a rule of thumb for the measurements? Using exact ceiling to carpeted floor, quarter inch more or quarter inch less? Is there a fudge factor? I assume better to come up a tad short then a tad too big (causing the panel to bend/warp). Any tricks of the trade if you come up a tad short? My guess is a thin "slice" of wood painted black or wrapped in velvet used to wedge in the top/bottom to hold into place? Sorry...dumb questions...but want to make sure I order the correct size the first time.

Thanks
Ron
When I used to have my JTR speakers exposed in my room. I took a strip of velvet and folded it to make a nice edge. I draped this over the speaker, so that it was flush with the front face on the top and sides of the speaker. The ends were tucked under the speaker. Made the speakers completely disappear.

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post #1122 of 1340 Old 07-28-2014, 10:52 AM
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Made my own version black screen wall plus roll up/roll down DIY masking, and black side walls for trials at the moment.

materials used
- 1 pc 1inch stainless tubular ( curtain hanger )
- 1 pc 1/2 inch stainless tubular ( curtain hanger )
- 2 pcs curtain hanger holder
- soft black felt cloth
- adhesive
- sewing thread



sample of 1/2 inch tubular


holder and 1inch tubular after installation


Closed up shot at mask rolled up


rolled up masking


rolled down masking 8" in height


no mask - lights on - full screen


no mask - lights off - full screen


no mask - lights on - 2.35 aspect ratio


no mask- lights on- adjust scale x 3 and height postion to eliminate lower portion of black letter box


mask down - lights on - ( same scale and height position )



and lights off. ( same scale and height )
and compared to no mask


mask rolled up - lights off -( Same scale and height)


mask rolled up - lights off - default aspect ( letter box )


DIY PJ SCREEN


BenQ 1070






Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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post #1123 of 1340 Old 07-28-2014, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airscapes View Post

Not sure what you are asking in #2 .. I think you are asking on how big to make the wall frames? The way I did my ceiling was to measure the width in inches and see what would divide into it evenly. Then subtract about 1/8" from each side of the panel that butts to the next for the wrapped velvet. If you start at the ceiling and are short at the floor no worries.

I guess for wall you could do one giant frame ceiling to floor..
Thanks for the reply. What I am driving at are the two panels that will sit floor to ceiling (on the sides of the screen. I want to pressure fit the panels. My concern is getting a solid/tight fit without warping or bending the panel. Is there a rule of thumb is measuring for proper fit? When pressure fitting, common sense would say exact fit from ceiling to floor with taking into account the thickness of the velvet....all that being said, I didn't know if there were anything else I should take into account. I'll be shipping the wood panel parts and didn't want to make a mistake in ordering the proper size the first time. Measure twice, cut once mindset. Measure twice, order once....in my case.

Thanks
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post
When I used to have my JTR speakers exposed in my room. I took a strip of velvet and folded it to make a nice edge. I draped this over the speaker, so that it was flush with the front face on the top and sides of the speaker. The ends were tucked under the speaker. Made the speakers completely disappear.
Mike: You provided a "duh" moment for me.....didn't consider the old "fold over".


Thanks

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post #1125 of 1340 Old 07-28-2014, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rboster View Post
Mike: You provided a "duh" moment for me.....didn't consider the old "fold over".


Thanks

Ron
It is such a simple solution that works so well.
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post #1126 of 1340 Old 07-28-2014, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rboster View Post
I have a couple of questions while working on my black hole room:


1) I do not sew, but trying to get a clean edge using the Joann R3 velvet to wrap around my speakers (sides and tops). I used gaffers tape...so so results. Any suggestions on non-sewing seams working with the velvet edges (for a clean look)? If push comes to shove...I would be willing to hire to sew the "speaker covers".

2) I feel a little foolish asking this....but here is goes. I plan on using art canvass stretchers (basically frames) to create my screen wall velvet panels. A tad more expensive, than buying the lumber for HD etc (but I don't have the tools and feel like a douche asking HD to do all the cutting for me). This way I know I am getting easy to assemble framing with quality corners. All that being said, To have pressure fit assembling without warping the frame, is there a rule of thumb for the measurements? Using exact ceiling to carpeted floor, quarter inch more or quarter inch less? Is there a fudge factor? I assume better to come up a tad short then a tad too big (causing the panel to bend/warp). Any tricks of the trade if you come up a tad short? My guess is a thin "slice" of wood painted black or wrapped in velvet used to wedge in the top/bottom to hold into place? Sorry...dumb questions...but want to make sure I order the correct size the first time.

Thanks
Ron
#2 ... I would get a piece of the velvet (or what ever material you are going to use), and fold it over and measure the thickness of 2 layers... Then I would get a scrap piece of wood cut to the proposed length (you could go to HD and get a piece of fir stripping for a couple of bucks).Trial fit it to see if it fits snugly, and if it does get the rest cut to the same length. BTW... I think fir stripping would be fine for making the masking frames and is not expensive.

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post #1127 of 1340 Old 07-28-2014, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
That makes sense.

I just wonder with Protostar vs velvet if it's just cutting hairs in this case.
I use Protostar to cover my black metal painted ceiling grid near the screen. I really don't know if velvet would be better. My screen frame is covered with the material put on by stewart. My walls are Guilford almost black fabric. My center speaker which is above the screen has Protostar on the bottom. Its as far as I choose to go now. Its pretty non reflective in the theater now but I think I might get a litle reflection near the screen top under the center channel. But its only about 2 inches on the top. maybe gluing a piece of black velvet would be better. I don't know though and I really do not think it would be worth the effort to obtain a very slight minor improvement. Pictures of my theater can be found on the virtual tour of my house, 22200 Zion Road, Brookeville, MD. Google the address.
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post #1128 of 1340 Old 07-28-2014, 01:12 PM
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For those that have used protostar flockboard on their speakers. How did you attach it to the speaker without damaging the wood? Or, was it a permanently attached without concern for damage?

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post #1129 of 1340 Old 07-28-2014, 04:46 PM
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OK I can at least keep threading the thread as I wrapped the top of my speakers in velvet...
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post #1130 of 1340 Old 07-28-2014, 04:47 PM
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OK I can at least keep threading the thread as I wrapped the top of my speakers in velvet...
Those are really nice. We'll done

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post #1131 of 1340 Old 07-28-2014, 05:05 PM
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Those are really nice. We'll done
Thanks. Luckily they lift right off. I removed their plastic cap (wood underneath) a long time ago and painted them flat black. However without the spots turned up all the way I can hardly see the beige trim so it hardly matters how well they are done. Yes I know the trim looks white in the images...
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post #1132 of 1340 Old 07-28-2014, 05:15 PM
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For those that have used protostar flockboard on their speakers. How did you attach it to the speaker without damaging the wood? Or, was it a permanently attached without concern for damage?
The speakers are M&K powered professionals and the finish is flat black no grain. Dull, like this thread. I cut a sheet of Protostar that had adhesive on the back protected by a piece of paper. Peeled the paper off and stuck it on. My speakers are permanent, the room is designed acoustically specifically for them and their location was precisely specified and installed thereto, First reflections are picked up on the walls and ceilings and for the surrounds there is diffusion on the ceiling above and in front of each speaker.if

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post #1133 of 1340 Old 07-29-2014, 05:35 AM
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Originally Posted by rboster View Post
Thanks for the reply. What I am driving at are the two panels that will sit floor to ceiling (on the sides of the screen. I want to pressure fit the panels. My concern is getting a solid/tight fit without warping or bending the panel. Is there a rule of thumb is measuring for proper fit? When pressure fitting, common sense would say exact fit from ceiling to floor with taking into account the thickness of the velvet....all that being said, I didn't know if there were anything else I should take into account. I'll be shipping the wood panel parts and didn't want to make a mistake in ordering the proper size the first time. Measure twice, cut once mindset. Measure twice, order once....in my case.

Thanks
Ron
I'd consider wedges/spacers of some sort, It would not be unusual for the size/height to vary slightly across the room so unless you're building each frame custom for each position, you're likely to have fitment problems when you're talking about trying to make them all snug/friction fit (very small tolerances). Plus that custom building drives up the construction time significantly.

On the other hand if you use wedges/spacers to make the fit tight, all you have to worry about is those. Though another idea, that might be even easier, would be to build/order your frames a couple inches short and use a french cleat to mount it, then maybe use some sort of baseboard (wrapped in velvet of course), maybe mounted to a spacer to cover the gap at the bottom.
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post #1134 of 1340 Old 07-29-2014, 06:56 AM
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
I'd consider wedges/spacers of some sort, It would not be unusual for the size/height to vary slightly across the room so unless you're building each frame custom for each position, you're likely to have fitment problems when you're talking about trying to make them all snug/friction fit (very small tolerances). Plus that custom building drives up the construction time significantly.

On the other hand if you use wedges/spacers to make the fit tight, all you have to worry about is those. Though another idea, that might be even easier, would be to build/order your frames a couple inches short and use a french cleat to mount it, then maybe use some sort of baseboard (wrapped in velvet of course), maybe mounted to a spacer to cover the gap at the bottom.
The french cleat is a terrific idea. Thanks for the input!

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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
The speakers are M&K powered professionals and the finish is flat black no grain. Dull, like this thread. I cut a sheet of Protostar that had adhesive on the back protected by a piece of paper. Peeled the paper off and stuck it on. My speakers are permanent, the room is designed acoustically specifically for them and their location was precisely specified and installed thereto, First reflections are picked up on the walls and ceilings and for the surrounds there is diffusion on the ceiling above and in front of each speaker.if
Thanks for sharing.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
I'd consider wedges/spacers of some sort, It would not be unusual for the size/height to vary slightly across the room so unless you're building each frame custom for each position, you're likely to have fitment problems when you're talking about trying to make them all snug/friction fit (very small tolerances). Plus that custom building drives up the construction time significantly.

On the other hand if you use wedges/spacers to make the fit tight, all you have to worry about is those. Though another idea, that might be even easier, would be to build/order your frames a couple inches short and use a french cleat to mount it, then maybe use some sort of baseboard (wrapped in velvet of course), maybe mounted to a spacer to cover the gap at the bottom.
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The french cleat is a terrific idea. Thanks for the input!
Why not use velcro?

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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post
Why not use velcro?
You are correct Mike, velcro is always a decent option. My only hesitation is my past experience with the industrial velcro tearing the heck out of the wall. One other consideration I had, but didn't bring up was the frame covering the baseboard. The panel will be slightly away from the wall (coming over the baseboard). I didn't want to remove the baseboard, so using the velcro will have the panel closer to the top of the wall and laying over the baseboard. I think a french cleat as an alternative would hang the panel far enough away from the top of the wall and coming down in front of the baseboard.

The french cleat offers an interesting option to pressure mounting.

I do appreciate everyone's input.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rboster View Post
The french cleat is a terrific idea. Thanks for the input!
When I was in law school I dated a french woman for a short while. She taught me the french cleat and trust me it was and is fantastic though I think you might be using the term differently than she did.

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post #1139 of 1340 Old 07-29-2014, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rboster View Post
You are correct Mike, velcro is always a decent option. My only hesitation is my past experience with the industrial velcro tearing the heck out of the wall. One other consideration I had, but didn't bring up was the frame covering the baseboard. The panel will be slightly away from the wall (coming over the baseboard). I didn't want to remove the baseboard, so using the velcro will have the panel closer to the top of the wall and laying over the baseboard. I think a french cleat as an alternative would hang the panel far enough away from the top of the wall and coming down in front of the baseboard.

The french cleat offers an interesting option to pressure mounting.

I do appreciate everyone's input.
Use lower strength velcro. The industrial stuff, hardly comes apart. You could also use trim head tek screws, but if you do that, be sure you know exactly where the screws are located, since you will have a hard time finding them, if you don't.

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You can also use screws to secure the wall portion of the velcro and use the adhesive for the frame side. By not using the adhesive part on the wall you should be able to prevent the damage you were worried about.

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