"Black" Theater Improvment Thread (Once you go black you never go back?) - Page 60 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1771 of 1795 Old 04-26-2015, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post
You should really start to notice the difference, but it is a slippery slope. Once you start, you look for more ways to improve it
It is a slippery slope - my room was painted a tasteful matte black and I had the carpet dyed as dark as I could get it - friends and family said it looked beautiful (especially with the black and white hollywood photos I framed and put on the wall).

But then I wondered what some velvet on the ceiling and carpet in front of the screen might do.

Lo and behold - after pinning up some velvet on the left and leaving the right bare - even my girlfriend had to admit that the velvet was much darker and looked better because it truly disappeared, whereas with black paint there is still glare from the picture.

So now I have the problem of how to make the ceiling, floor and side walls truly "disappear" without just tackily pinning velvet everywhere.

And I also have to figure out how to do that while retaining acoustic transparency for the diffusors I have at the first reflection points.

"Don't forget that a significant contribution made by the use of high-end cabling is emotional. Knowing that you have the best available causes the listening and viewing to be that much more enjoyable. Observable improvements make it even better."

-From a post on the audio video improvements forum
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post #1772 of 1795 Old 04-26-2015, 06:21 PM
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One problem is that a theater room with some contrasting colors and architectural elements is a more pleasant place to be when the lights are up - it's inviting.

But during the movie you want it all to be jet black so the only you can see is the picture.

I have thought of having electric velvet shades on the side walls that come down when you turn the projector on, and retract to reveal photos and nice columns, etc. when the lights come back up.

"Don't forget that a significant contribution made by the use of high-end cabling is emotional. Knowing that you have the best available causes the listening and viewing to be that much more enjoyable. Observable improvements make it even better."

-From a post on the audio video improvements forum
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post #1773 of 1795 Old 04-26-2015, 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by George Kouzev View Post
Any good places selling quality black velvet by the yard in Canada?
Fabricland actually has one line of black velvet that is very dark, quite close to the velvets discussed in this thread.
I'm trying to remember the name "Royal" perhaps? Anyway, if you go to Fabricland you'll be able to find the darkest black velvet for yourself.
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post #1774 of 1795 Old 04-26-2015, 06:45 PM
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I wonder if you could spray it on ceiling tile...
The original rosco thread in the construction forum had a member who who hired a painter who sprayed the rosco...looked awesome

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post #1775 of 1795 Old 04-26-2015, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
I just opened one of the cans, it's a very thick consistency. I wanted to try a small brush on some spare drywall. I think I may have to dilute it, I am doing a ceiling and it's not easy to keep the roller strokes as consistent as painting a wall.
I let the sample dry and compared it to the protostar and the royalty 3 velvet, it's not as dark as I was expecting. I worked hard to get the majority of the room covered in velvet and protostar. I may have to re-think this ceiling area that is just above and behind my seats. it's not in the line of sight but the 'entrance' into my HT room so I want it to look as good as possible.

I have a ton of extra velvet, maybe I'll look at using thin MDF plywood, wrapping it in velvet and using thin nails to secure it to the ceiling drywall. ahhh this never ends.
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post #1776 of 1795 Old 04-26-2015, 06:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisreeves View Post
One problem is that a theater room with some contrasting colors and architectural elements is a more pleasant place to be when the lights are up - it's inviting.


But during the movie you want it all to be jet black so the only you can see is the picture.
That's why black velvet curtains have worked out so well for me. They are gone when not watching a movie, leaving a normal, bright room. And come into use only for movie watching, creating a reference-level "black box" room in which to watch movies.

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I have thought of having electric velvet shades on the side walls that come down when you turn the projector on, and retract to reveal photos and nice columns, etc. when the lights come back up.
I went through every possibility in my room in terms of how to introduce material that would cut room reflections for movies, but disappear when not in use. I'd originally planned on a series of black blinds, remote controlled along the lines you suggest. The main issue was that I was told over and over by various blind companies that any remotely stretchy material, e.g. velvet, just won't work with a blind system. Supposedly any bit of stretchiness plays out over time to make the fabric roll up unevenly, until the system just catches and doesn't work. Which is why every pre-fab
electric blind you'll find uses non-stretchy material. So I was stuck trying to find electric blinds that came in the flattest black. But ALL of them ultimately were of a plasticy material that had a reflective sheen, even if the actual color was "black."

I finally gave up on it. And lucky I did, since the velvet curtain route turned out to be so much better, in terms of cutting room reflections. I would love to have added an electric motor to make it all remote controlled too. But the main issue is I have a fireplace sticking out along one wall that an electric rail would not clear, so the curtain has to be hand pulled to clear it.

I've been at another member's house who did his basement ceiling in black velvet and he had black velvet curtains that came out along his side walls, on remote controlled rails.

Remote controlled curtain systems can be found very cheap, so it's worth looking in to.
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post #1777 of 1795 Old 04-26-2015, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
Fabricland actually has one line of black velvet that is very dark, quite close to the velvets discussed in this thread.
I'm trying to remember the name "Royal" perhaps? Anyway, if you go to Fabricland you'll be able to find the darkest black velvet for yourself.
I have 10 yards of it hanging carefully in my closet, waiting for Theater 2.0.
The Fabricland near me seems to carry it only in the winter, then blow it out at 50% off in the spring. Can never have too much black velvet.
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post #1778 of 1795 Old 04-26-2015, 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
I just opened one of the cans, it's a very thick consistency. I wanted to try a small brush on some spare drywall. I think I may have to dilute it, I am doing a ceiling and it's not easy to keep the roller strokes as consistent as painting a wall.
I wouldn't worry too much it is more forgiving than you might expect for a dark paint.

I used a roller on my ceiling (two coats) and had the added complexity of 3 exposed laminated beams in the ceiling and can't see any roller marks/ uneveness or where the paint brush cutting in meets the rolled on paint.

Just roll off any excess and it will be fine.
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post #1779 of 1795 Old 04-26-2015, 09:45 PM
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Any good recommendations for curtains (or similar material/products) meant for ceiling mounting? My ceiling is flat black but looking to further deaden reflections above the screen.

Thanks!
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post #1780 of 1795 Old 04-26-2015, 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
That's why black velvet curtains have worked out so well for me. They are gone when not watching a movie, leaving a normal, bright room. And come into use only for movie watching, creating a reference-level "black box" room in which to watch movies.
Thanks - great info. Do you worry about the acoustic properties of too much velvet - perhaps over-absorbing certain frequencies and/or overdeadening the room?

"Don't forget that a significant contribution made by the use of high-end cabling is emotional. Knowing that you have the best available causes the listening and viewing to be that much more enjoyable. Observable improvements make it even better."

-From a post on the audio video improvements forum
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post #1781 of 1795 Old 04-27-2015, 06:49 AM
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For anyone in Canada, I recently painted my ceiling tiles and walls with this "Artistic productions" paint from Sico (not sure if you can get it in the US) http://www.sico.ca/en-CA/Our-Product...tic-production. Bought it at Rona - http://www.rona.ca/en/latex-interior-paint-50315971--1

This paint is incredible. It is absolutely black, it seems to absorb light, and is a deal at $24 gallon. It goes on very easy in one coat as well. I painted the side walls, ceiling, and screen wall. I have the fiberglass ceiling tiles with the little holes in them - I took them outside and used the Wagner painter on them; 30 seconds per panel to paint. Stuck like primer.

When the projector is on and the lights are off, the screen wall disappears into blackness - you cannot see anything except a black void. The only negative is that it can leave marks more easily due to its absolute flatness, but a gentle wipe with a damp cloth can fix that. All in all the easiest and best thing $$ I have done to my HT.
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post #1782 of 1795 Old 04-27-2015, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by bh626pro View Post
For anyone in Canada, I recently painted my ceiling tiles and walls with this "Artistic productions" paint from Sico (not sure if you can get it in the US) http://www.sico.ca/en-CA/Our-Product...tic-production. Bought it at Rona - http://www.rona.ca/en/latex-interior-paint-50315971--1

This paint is incredible. It is absolutely black, it seems to absorb light, and is a deal at $24 gallon. It goes on very easy in one coat as well. I painted the side walls, ceiling, and screen wall. I have the fiberglass ceiling tiles with the little holes in them - I took them outside and used the Wagner painter on them; 30 seconds per panel to paint. Stuck like primer.

When the projector is on and the lights are off, the screen wall disappears into blackness - you cannot see anything except a black void. The only negative is that it can leave marks more easily due to its absolute flatness, but a gentle wipe with a damp cloth can fix that. All in all the easiest and best thing $$ I have done to my HT.
I would love to try some of this paint. If anyone stumbles upon an etailer that ships to US...let me know?

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post #1783 of 1795 Old 04-27-2015, 02:01 PM
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Thanks - great info. Do you worry about the acoustic properties of too much velvet - perhaps over-absorbing certain frequencies and/or overdeadening the room?
I have worried about that before too, but there have been posts here in the past about being able to buy velvet that is mostly acoustically transparent, so it probably wouldn't have a huge effect on the tonal balance of the room. I kept the link for future reference, and this is what I have: http://www.whaleys-bradford.ltd.uk/s...t-black-devore

I haven't investigated it thoroughly since I am waiting until I have a dedicated room to do this in. I think some on this thread have used it -- perhaps they will chime in if they know more about it than I do.

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post #1784 of 1795 Old 04-27-2015, 02:56 PM
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I let the sample dry and compared it to the protostar and the royalty 3 velvet, it's not as dark as I was expecting. I worked hard to get the majority of the room covered in velvet and protostar. I may have to re-think this ceiling area that is just above and behind my seats. it's not in the line of sight but the 'entrance' into my HT room so I want it to look as good as possible.

I have a ton of extra velvet, maybe I'll look at using thin MDF plywood, wrapping it in velvet and using thin nails to secure it to the ceiling drywall. ahhh this never ends.

I went past my seating area and my PJ which is directly behind me. It really closes off the room nicely.

James Reid:D
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post #1785 of 1795 Old 04-29-2015, 03:28 AM
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Originally Posted by bh626pro View Post
For anyone in Canada, I recently painted my ceiling tiles and walls with this "Artistic productions" paint from Sico (not sure if you can get it in the US) http://www.sico.ca/en-CA/Our-Product...tic-production. Bought it at Rona - http://www.rona.ca/en/latex-interior-paint-50315971--1

This paint is incredible. It is absolutely black, it seems to absorb light, and is a deal at $24 gallon. It goes on very easy in one coat as well. I painted the side walls, ceiling, and screen wall. I have the fiberglass ceiling tiles with the little holes in them - I took them outside and used the Wagner painter on them; 30 seconds per panel to paint. Stuck like primer.

When the projector is on and the lights are off, the screen wall disappears into blackness - you cannot see anything except a black void. The only negative is that it can leave marks more easily due to its absolute flatness, but a gentle wipe with a damp cloth can fix that. All in all the easiest and best thing $$ I have done to my HT.
Wow, sounds like a great paint. I currently use a flat black Benjamin Moore Aura paint and my screen still lights up the room pretty good. Like you, my screen wall disappears but my side walls get a lot of reflected light from the screen and light up.

Do your side walls still light up or does this paint kill those reflections?
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post #1786 of 1795 Old 04-29-2015, 09:39 AM
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Great - looking forward to hearing how you like working with the paint and how you like the results.

Side note - did you get my email from last night? I received the PicoPro today BTW.
That will be a little bit dim on your soon to be new screen in the dedicated room. You might want to stack a dozen of them.

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post #1787 of 1795 Old 04-29-2015, 09:35 PM
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I just opened one of the cans, it's a very thick consistency. I wanted to try a small brush on some spare drywall. I think I may have to dilute it, I am doing a ceiling and it's not easy to keep the roller strokes as consistent as painting a wall.
I let the sample dry and compared it to the protostar and the royalty 3 velvet, it's not as dark as I was expecting. I worked hard to get the majority of the room covered in velvet and protostar. I may have to re-think this ceiling area that is just above and behind my seats. it's not in the line of sight but the 'entrance' into my HT room so I want it to look as good as possible.

I have a ton of extra velvet, maybe I'll look at using thin MDF plywood, wrapping it in velvet and using thin nails to secure it to the ceiling drywall. ahhh this never ends.
Be careful not to inadvertently over deaden the room. You may want to look at the very sheer velvet from the UK which according to my measures is fairly transparent. The Royalty or similar may absorb too much of the high end. IDK the sheer one could do the same. I am facing the same thing when I plan my star ceiling.

If you have a chance please see my lighting question I posted yesterday in the shoot out thread. Thanks.
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post #1788 of 1795 Old 04-29-2015, 10:29 PM
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ric do you have a mock up or actual photos of your new HT area in a build thread? seeing the overall planned space might help with the lighting decision.

for my setup, it was just a coincidence that I used these 'eyeball' lights all over the room and the Hue came in a GU10 size that worked out perfect. There are no Hue compatible lamps that I know of, the 3rd party light strip controller was a one off situation.

I now have 26 Hue lights throughout the room, 11 GU10's, 14 A19's and the 1 light strip that wraps around the seats. I just bought another hue tap, I like this programmable switch. It's impressive to see how quickly all of the lights react to a scene change, no lag between lamps.

no regrets for this system, it's the first thing people notice when they stop over. My favorite scene is a combination of red on the seat trim, red on the GU10's facing the side walls of the HT room and a deep ultraviolet purple on the screen. I can't take a photo of it, none of my cameras can capture this color regardless of the white balance settings.
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post #1789 of 1795 Old 04-30-2015, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
I let the sample dry and compared it to the protostar and the royalty 3 velvet, it's not as dark as I was expecting. I worked hard to get the majority of the room covered in velvet and protostar. I may have to re-think this ceiling area that is just above and behind my seats. it's not in the line of sight but the 'entrance' into my HT room so I want it to look as good as possible.

I have a ton of extra velvet, maybe I'll look at using thin MDF plywood, wrapping it in velvet and using thin nails to secure it to the ceiling drywall. ahhh this never ends.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
ric do you have a mock up or actual photos of your new HT area in a build thread? seeing the overall planned space might help with the lighting decision.

for my setup, it was just a coincidence that I used these 'eyeball' lights all over the room and the Hue came in a GU10 size that worked out perfect. There are no Hue compatible lamps that I know of, the 3rd party light strip controller was a one off situation.

I now have 26 Hue lights throughout the room, 11 GU10's, 14 A19's and the 1 light strip that wraps around the seats. I just bought another hue tap, I like this programmable switch. It's impressive to see how quickly all of the lights react to a scene change, no lag between lamps.

no regrets for this system, it's the first thing people notice when they stop over. My favorite scene is a combination of red on the seat trim, red on the GU10's facing the side walls of the HT room and a deep ultraviolet purple on the screen. I can't take a photo of it, none of my cameras can capture this color regardless of the white balance settings.
Sounds amazing! Its a shame that a camera cannot do it justice. Yes here's the build thread - this post has the latest room model New theater design project - your input needed please . The post under that one explains what I'm looking to do, which is essentially what I said in the post the other day.

Would absolutely love your thoughts on it - and anyone else's that wishes to participate! Thanks in advance.
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post #1790 of 1795 Old Yesterday, 11:26 AM
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For anyone in Canada, I recently painted my ceiling tiles and walls with this "Artistic productions" paint from Sico (not sure if you can get it in the US) http://www.sico.ca/en-CA/Our-Product...tic-production. Bought it at Rona - http://www.rona.ca/en/latex-interior-paint-50315971--1

This paint is incredible. It is absolutely black, it seems to absorb light, and is a deal at $24 gallon. It goes on very easy in one coat as well. I painted the side walls, ceiling, and screen wall. I have the fiberglass ceiling tiles with the little holes in them - I took them outside and used the Wagner painter on them; 30 seconds per panel to paint. Stuck like primer.

When the projector is on and the lights are off, the screen wall disappears into blackness - you cannot see anything except a black void. The only negative is that it can leave marks more easily due to its absolute flatness, but a gentle wipe with a damp cloth can fix that. All in all the easiest and best thing $$ I have done to my HT.
Is it possible to use this paint to paint my basement floor? Sorry I'm a paint noob. It's concrete so I'm not sure if that needs special paint. The reflections kill my screen at the moment aha.
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post #1791 of 1795 Old Yesterday, 12:03 PM
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Is it possible to use this paint to paint my basement floor? Sorry I'm a paint noob. It's concrete so I'm not sure if that needs special paint. The reflections kill my screen at the moment aha.
Even if you could use this paint on concrete....it would scuff up so easily being flat black...it would look pretty nasty within 24 hours on walking on it. Most stick to ceilings or other hard to reach (low traffic) areas when using flat paint.

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post #1792 of 1795 Old Yesterday, 10:46 PM
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That will be a little bit dim on your soon to be new screen in the dedicated room. You might want to stack a dozen of them.
Good one Mike. Actually the PicoPro image appears a lot brighter than one would think possible given its spec of 30 lumens. I've been using the PicoPro to evaluate my planned seating distance of 150" from a 140" wide 2.35 screen by projecting it on a side wall that's painted dark green. My guess is that I am getting about 2-3 ftL out of it after the negative gain from the dark paint. Anyway, this was a great way to test this seating distance to see how I'd like it (great!) compared to taking down my Sony and setting it up in the back of the room.

There are many things about the PicoPro that prevent it from being a serious home theater projector for critical enthusiasts. But that said, I have seen the future from this little unit and it is laser. Not laser lit phosphor wheels, but laser. The intra-scene contrast with this projector is incredible - just stunning. And why shouldn't it be - the laser light is highly concentrated (which is why it doesn't require focusing the unit, ever) so whatever is hitting the screen as white is white, but if there is supposed to be something black right next to it, there's no light at all there from the laser hitting the screen. Can't do that with a bulb or lit phosphor wheel.

So you just have your room reflections coming back to the screen to concern yourself with. Control those and you have bright whites adjacent to deep blacks like you've never seen before. No auto iris or dynamic dimming necessary. I imagine it will likely be quite a while before we see true laser projectors that are first-rate home theater projectors. Lots to solve first including speckle. But when that day comes, it will usher in performance on a whole other level. Something to look forward to indeed!
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post #1793 of 1795 Old Today, 09:28 PM
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Is it possible to use this paint to paint my basement floor? Sorry I'm a paint noob. It's concrete so I'm not sure if that needs special paint. The reflections kill my screen at the moment aha.
it's time for some black carpet to cover that concrete.

I searched around for a long time before I found the right color black carpet. The manufacturer info is in the 2nd photo.






I love this carpet, it completed my black out project for the HT area. It's nice and thick and overall great quality.


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post #1794 of 1795 Old Today, 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
it's time for some black carpet to cover that concrete.

I searched around for a long time before I found the right color black carpet. The manufacturer info is in the 2nd photo.






I love this carpet, it completed my black out project for the HT area. It's nice and thick and overall great quality.


Looks awesome! Is this the same carpet that you linked to here a couple of months back? Or did you go with something else and that's what this? Also when you have a chance please see my lighting question re: HUE brightness and how to fill the room with all HUE that's bright enough. Lastly did you ever get my email from a week or so ago about the other things we were discussing? Thanks!
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same carpet from before, it's great black carpet. I just posted info on the lights. sorry if I missed the email, I get a ton each day. I will check it tomorrow.
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