Epson 5020 vs Sony VPL-HW50ES - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 99 Old 09-07-2013, 12:20 AM
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The starter model of the JVC costs the same as the Epson with the AVS pre-order deals, I am calm.

I can't say TOO much as it's time to take my half-blind pet monkey and go hang-gliding off a 10,000 foot cliff in a storm over a forest fire and near an active volcano. My half-blind pet monkey will do the navigating...

I don't have an issue with your opinion, simply that I think you have some things backwards.

Sharpness = Epson (with good convergence) and with the Super Res is sharper than a Sony
---RC is not that important since you can get the same thing for $250 via the Sony Bluray player (bdp-s790, it comes with RC)
---You can have RC on the Epson if you want, but RC makes the picture look too grainy.

3D = Epson
HTPC = Epson

Shadow Detail = Same (if you think otherwise, then time to learn about native on/off, gamma, and gray-scale calibrations)
Blacks = Too close to call, but most say Sony, plus Sony has the least visible IRIS which makes blacks more enjoyable if nothing else
IRIS = Sony
Fan Noise = Sony (by a mile, especially in HIGH)
Color = Sony, because of best-mode brightness
Build Quality = Sony
Lag Time = Sony
Pixel Fill = Sony
Better FI = Sony
Placement flexibility = Only matters if Sony is not flexible enough.
Film-Like = Sony
Movies = Sony
Image Noise = Depends on the source, but Sony is cleaner or about the same noise wise if you have RC turned off

For 3D, HTPC reading, and torch-mode viewing, I'd take the Epson. For everything else, I'll happily take the Sony, but you know I own a JVC and a Benq right now, so looks like I'm happy with neither.

PS:
Epson does win in another area, and that is providing the highest amount of advertising revenue to the reviewers, no wonder online reviews overly favor Epson (go figure).


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post #62 of 99 Old 09-07-2013, 01:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

The starter model of the JVC costs the same as the Epson with the AVS pre-order deals, I am calm.

I can't say TOO much else as it's time to take my half-blind pet monkey and go hang-gliding off a 10,000 foot cliff in a storm over a forest fire and near an active volcano. My half-blind pet monkey will do the navigating...

I don't have an issue with your opinion, simply that I think you have some things backwards.

Sharpness = Epson (with good convergence) and with the Super Res is sharper than a Sony
---RC is not that important since you can get the same thing for $250 via the Sony Bluray player (bdp-s790, it comes with RC)
---You can have RC on the Epson if you want, but RC makes the picture look too grainy.

3D = Epson
HTPC = Epson

Shadow Detail = Same (if you think otherwise, then time to learn about native on/off, gamma, and gray-scale calibrations)
Blacks = Too close to call, but most say Sony, plus Sony has the least visible IRIS which makes blacks more enjoyable if nothing else
IRIS = Sony
Fan Noise = Sony (by a mile, especially in HIGH)
Color = Sony, because of best-mode brightness
Build Quality = Sony
Lag Time = Sony
Pixel Fill = Sony
Better FI = Sony
Placement flexibility = Only matters if Sony is not flexible enough.
Film-Like = Sony
Movies = Sony
Image Noise = Depends on the source, but Sony is cleaner or about the same noise wise if you have RC turned off

Here is a better list. Some assumptions made like calibration variances or if RC was on during image noise testing etc.

EPSON:

3D
HTPC
Price
Blacks/Pop
Bulb Life
Warranty
Placement Flexibility (way better zoom, lens shift, wireless, brightness)
CA Adjustments

FAN: Negligible when in Eco
Image Noise = Tie
Sharpness = Tie
Shadow: Tie
Color: Tie

Sony:

IRIS
Film-Like
Build Quality
Lag Time
Pixel Fill
Better FI

If these 6 Sony advantages + an extra $1000 outweigh Epson advantages, then I think that's great I'm sure you will be happy. But I've made my decision and am receiving my Epson shortly. I might switch to Sony during there next release or if they beat Epson to cheap 4k. I'm not brand loyal one bit.
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post #63 of 99 Old 09-07-2013, 03:42 AM
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@Coderguy I dont think epson is sharper than sony. Sony with RC on (10 or less) is sharper and more crispy image...
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post #64 of 99 Old 09-07-2013, 04:01 AM
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Ask Zombie, Epson is more naturally sharp, better lens. Again, (I seem to keep having to repeat this), RC is nothing because the $250 Sony bdp-s790 comes with RC!

Want RC on the Epson, no problem buy the Sony Bluray player. Prefer RC on the JVC, no problem.

Overall, all the veteran projector users I can think of (including myself who only recently saw RC), have preferred RC OFF most of the time due to added grain. The Darbee is where it's at, and I can confidently say that the Darbee + Super RES > RC + Darbee, sorry folks!

I am tempted to put this in my comments, RC = Sony BDP-s790

Done!

If I sound flusterly-flubber-gasted, I'm not, I'm just being silly and having fun in here. Actually, most of the time, this forum is a lot of fun and we get to relay our experiences in the process... Buy the Sony Bluray playeR!


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post #65 of 99 Old 09-07-2013, 04:59 AM
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I know I am sharp and part of it is natural but a modicum is artificial or enhanced.

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post #66 of 99 Old 09-07-2013, 07:49 AM
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how does wireless hdmi work on the epson,also sorry for being dumb but what is rc that you guys are talking about?
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post #67 of 99 Old 09-07-2013, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

Ask Zombie, Epson is more naturally sharp, better lens. Again, (I seem to keep having to repeat this), RC is nothing because the $250 Sony bdp-s790 comes with RC!

Want RC on the Epson, no problem buy the Sony Bluray player. Prefer RC on the JVC, no problem.

Overall, all the veteran projector users I can think of (including myself who only recently saw RC), have preferred RC OFF most of the time due to added grain. The Darbee is where it's at, and I can confidently say that the Darbee + Super RES > RC + Darbee, sorry folks!

I am tempted to put this in my comments, RC = Sony BDP-s790

Done!

If I sound flusterly-flubber-gasted, I'm not, I'm just being silly and having fun in here. Actually, most of the time, this forum is a lot of fun and we get to relay our experiences in the process... Buy the Sony Bluray playeR!

Then ask to Art from projectorreviews. He says its definetly sharper than epson. (with rc) If you use RC moderatly (10 and below) its great. With heavy grany films you can turn off or use minimum.

Sony BDP-s790 is not a good example. What about if I m using and other people using Dune, popcorn media player? do they have RC? No. I use Dune 303d for my movies and I dont see RC in menu of DUNE.

You can be right about saying epson is naturally sharper than sony but who cares its natural or not, I think the result is important. RC rocks

This is my idea, I respect all other ideas

Kind Regards and SORRY FOR MY ENGLISH tongue.gif
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post #68 of 99 Old 09-07-2013, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snyderkv View Post

Here is a better list. Some assumptions made like calibration variances or if RC was on during image noise testing etc.

EPSON:

3D
HTPC
Price
Blacks/Pop
Bulb Life
Warranty
Placement Flexibility (way better zoom, lens shift, wireless, brightness)
CA Adjustments

FAN: Negligible when in Eco
Image Noise = Tie
Sharpness = Tie
Shadow: Tie
Color: Tie

Sony:

IRIS
Film-Like
Build Quality
Lag Time
Pixel Fill
Better FI

If these 6 Sony advantages + an extra $1000 outweigh Epson advantages, then I think that's great I'm sure you will be happy. But I've made my decision and am receiving my Epson shortly. I might switch to Sony during there next release or if they beat Epson to cheap 4k. I'm not brand loyal one bit.

The better iris by itself is worth every penny imo.
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post #69 of 99 Old 09-07-2013, 01:10 PM
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I trialed Epson and Sony on my 150" diagonal 16:9 screen and the Sony was better hands down because I sit 1 screen width away and there was noticeable SDE that close with the Epson. So a caveat, if you have a huge screen and sit close, Sony pixel fill is a big advantage. Even right up close (1 inch away) there's no space between pixels.

And RC is great but only with newer movies. Older grainy ones that aren't as sharp look too grainy but then you can just turn RC off. New movies look incredible with RC imo. No one here in my little NZ city that has seen my theater can believe a 150" picture is sharper than the one they have on their TV (until they see it, then they're awestruck).

Thankfully no one here (including me) has the magic "veteran projector user" eyes that can see that RC is terrible. wink.gif
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post #70 of 99 Old 09-07-2013, 04:44 PM
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No reason to argue. Both have their merits! I personally went for the Sony. The extra bulb and 3D glasses help, 3 year warranty and probably the fewest complaints on the forums. I was going with the Panasonic 8000 which has the same panels as the Epson but with the color variation issues (noted here and by reviewers) decided I would pay extra and go with the Sony. The extra $1000 was worth the peace of mind alone!
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post #71 of 99 Old 09-08-2013, 05:53 AM
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how hard is it living with the ir glasses of the 50 compared with the rf of the epson ?

do the 50,s ir system stop your remote controls working?
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post #72 of 99 Old 09-08-2013, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffwp View Post

how hard is it living with the ir glasses of the 50 compared with the rf of the epson ?

do the 50,s ir system stop your remote controls working?

Using 3D on my Sony 50ES currently prevents my Onkyo receiver from responding to IR commands. My PS3 IR dongle and Lutron Graffic Eye both respond to IR as per normal. I'm confident that using the external IR emitter will solve the problem of IR interference, although the trade-off is that I will have some extra cabling to try and hide.
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post #73 of 99 Old 09-08-2013, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffwp View Post

how hard is it living with the ir glasses of the 50 compared with the rf of the epson ?

do the 50,s ir system stop your remote controls working?

Sorry I don't control anything with IR in my theater (I use roomie remote on my ipad) so I couldn't tell you. I did when use ir remotes for a week or so when I was setting up my theater initially and with the external 3d emitter I had no interference problems.
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post #74 of 99 Old 09-09-2013, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by snyderkv View Post

Whoa man calm down. Both units were calibrated by the same guy and the shadow detail results are posted. No need to get defensive.

Lag times have been tested in two separate reviews I believe including the one below. Where are yours?

Aren't you the one who raved about blacks in the sub 1000 forum thus not recommending the lower model Epson?, but now that the Epson in this class shows better blacks and (shadows) it no longer seems to be a priority? It obviously appears that YOU are the bias one, not me.

Mtrunz, I copied all the Epson/Sony benefits that I could find from two separate reviews to help make your decision.

http://www.projectorreviews.com/epson/home-cinema-5020/image.php

3D: Epson
Price: Epson
Blacks/Pop: Epson
Bulb Life: Epson
Warranty: Epson
Color: Negligible
Shadow: Epson again
Placement Flexibility: Epson (way better zoom, lens shift, wireless, brightness etc)
CA Adjustments: Epson
Image Noise: Epson was good enough to be definitely visibly better than the more expensive Sony VPL-HW50ES

Sharpness: Sony due to RC. That's it? Yup

From the same reviewer at year end... It's kind of hard to figure how how he says the Sony is the best, when you determined from his reviews the Epson was....

Assuming both Sony and Epson projectors will well work in your environment, let me conclude this way: I'd say the Sony VPL-HW50ES is the best projector in this class.
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post #75 of 99 Old 09-09-2013, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by kaotikr1 View Post

From the same reviewer at year end... It's kind of hard to figure how how he says the Sony is the best, when you determined from his reviews the Epson was....

Assuming both Sony and Epson projectors will well work in your environment, let me conclude this way: I'd say the Sony VPL-HW50ES is the best projector in this class.

Sony class = $4000 MSRP
Epson class = $2600 MSRP

Epson is best value in its own class obviously and considering it matches the Sony in PQ in most ways and beats it in a few, I'd say the Epson is competitive even in the Sony class if they charged the same price. That says a lot about the Epson value imo.

We seem to be going in circles on this vs that. I posted the facts above which nobody has disagreed with so if those advantages are worth an extra $1000 to that person so be it. All other oppinons on what's best has more to do with what fullfills their specific application and needs.
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post #76 of 99 Old 09-09-2013, 11:03 PM
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JVC's can be had for under $3000 in pre-order specials, which puts the low-end JVC at the same price point as the Epson. JVC is the leader for movies in the under $3000 category, except for 3D.


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post #77 of 99 Old 09-10-2013, 06:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snyderkv View Post

Sony class = $4000 MSRP
Epson class = $2600 MSRP

Epson is best value in its own class obviously and considering it matches the Sony in PQ in most ways and beats it in a few, I'd say the Epson is competitive even in the Sony class if they charged the same price. That says a lot about the Epson value imo.

We seem to be going in circles on this vs that. I posted the facts above which nobody has disagreed with so if those advantages are worth an extra $1000 to that person so be it. All other oppinons on what's best has more to do with what fullfills their specific application and needs.

If consider the extra bulb and the street price for the Sony, the price difference is well under $500.

- Klipsch RF-82 ii, RC-62 ii, RS-52 ii
- Klipsch RW-12D
- Sony HW50es
- Firehawk G3
- Denon 2113
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post #78 of 99 Old 09-10-2013, 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by baloo_btru View Post

If consider the extra bulb and the street price for the Sony, the price difference is well under $500.

Yawn, prove it
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post #79 of 99 Old 09-10-2013, 08:23 AM
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Yawn, prove it

Sent you a PM. smile.gif
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post #80 of 99 Old 09-10-2013, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by snyderkv View Post

Yawn, prove it

Seriously? I guess you think I'm just making stuff up. Maybe you should do a little more research before spouting off claims. I'm sure Mike can give you relevant info though, as he is more patient than I am.

And FYI, very few dealers are willing to budge on the price of the Epson, and those that will only do so if you are purchasing many other items with the projector.

The major benefits of the Sony are: better motion handling, lower input lag (for gaming), better pixel fill, and RC is better than the Super Resolution. It also has a longer warranty.

The Epson is brighter (in torch mode) and cheaper and the warranty with the replacement is excellent.

- Klipsch RF-82 ii, RC-62 ii, RS-52 ii
- Klipsch RW-12D
- Sony HW50es
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post #81 of 99 Old 09-10-2013, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by baloo_btru View Post

Seriously? I guess you think I'm just making stuff up. Maybe you should do a little more research before spouting off claims. I'm sure Mike can give you relevant info though, as he is more patient than I am.

And FYI, very few dealers are willing to budge on the price of the Epson, and those that will only do so if you are purchasing many other items with the projector.

The major benefits of the Sony are: better motion handling, lower input lag (for gaming), better pixel fill, and RC is better than the Super Resolution. It also has a longer warranty.

The Epson is brighter (in torch mode) and cheaper and the warranty with the replacement is excellent.

Why are you comparing the 6020 price with the 50es and not the 5020 which has the same PQ but is 1000 cheaper? And you conveniently forgot to mention that the 6020 also has a free bulb and two spare glasses for <$2900. Plus the Sony bulb cost more and lasts 1000 hours less. What if the Sony bulb cost 4000? Does that mean the effective Sony street price is free?

Now the Epson 5020 with the same PQ is well under $2300. Tell me, how much is a 50es street? Exactly, about 1000 more.

Running in more circles by reiterating the benefits of the two projectors when they are all clearly listed above. And claiming I did no research? I listed a link with the side by side comparison that even Coderguy seems to agree with.
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post #82 of 99 Old 09-10-2013, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snyderkv View Post

Here is a better list. Some assumptions made like calibration variances or if RC was on during image noise testing etc.

EPSON:

3D
HTPC
Price
Blacks/Pop
Bulb Life
Warranty
Placement Flexibility (way better zoom, lens shift, wireless, brightness)
CA Adjustments

FAN: Negligible when in Eco
Image Noise = Tie
Sharpness = Tie
Shadow: Tie
Color: Tie

Sony:

IRIS
Film-Like
Build Quality
Lag Time
Pixel Fill
Better FI

If these 6 Sony advantages + an extra $1000 outweigh Epson advantages, then I think that's great I'm sure you will be happy. But I've made my decision and am receiving my Epson shortly. I might switch to Sony during there next release or if they beat Epson to cheap 4k. I'm not brand loyal one bit.

If you think the Epson has better blacks and more pop you have not seen them side by side, the Sony is better than the Epson in almost everything and is the best projector in its class.

Regards
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post #83 of 99 Old 09-10-2013, 09:08 AM
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If you think the Epson has better blacks and more pop you have not seen them side by side, the Sony is better than the Epson in almost everything and is the best projector in its class.

Better at everything haha not according to reviews (link provided even includes screen shots). If you think Sony is better at everything despite all the reviews then you will have to prove it in order to convince everyone the reviews are wrong including users who owned both and commented on them.
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post #84 of 99 Old 09-10-2013, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by snyderkv View Post

Better at everything haha not according to reviews (link provided even includes screen shots). If you think Sony is better at everything despite all the reviews then you will have to prove it in order to convince everyone the reviews are wrong including users who owned both and commented on them.

I have seen them side by side in my own HT and I trust my own eyes not a reviewers, and screenshots is worthless. And I own the HW50 and VW1000 and would never concider swapping my HW50 with the top Epson TW9100 (europe model name, 9200 is coming later this year).

And if you read what I wrote, I wrote almost everything. Have you seen them both?

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post #85 of 99 Old 09-10-2013, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baloo_btru View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by baloo_btru View Post

And FYI, very few dealers are willing to budge on the price of the Epson.

So the few dealers who budge on Epson prices don't count as "street price?
Quote:
Originally Posted by baloo_btru View Post

lower input lag (for gaming)

16ms WOW!
Quote:
Originally Posted by baloo_btru View Post

RC is better than the Super Resolution.

As stated earlier, Epson has a higher native sharpness (better lens) and lots of people don't seem to like RC. Plus you can get RC built into your Sony player and have it on any model as Coderguy stated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by baloo_btru View Post

The Epson is brighter (in torch mode) and cheaper and the warranty with the replacement is excellent.

Conveniently left out a whole bunch of Epson benefits but that's ok we are all fan boys to a degree.

Torch mode? You can adjust an Epson to be whatever lumen up to 2000+. Meaning it's much easier to go down in brightness than to go up with a Sony which would be impossible. It doesn't have to be "torch" mode as you put it.
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post #86 of 99 Old 09-10-2013, 09:30 AM
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And here is a review showing the Epson has panel alignment and color variation issues. Same issues the Panasonic 8000 has (Epson supplies panels to Panasonic).

http://hometheaterreview.com/epson-home-cinema-5020ube-3d-lcd-projector-reviewed/


So I think the basic take-away is you get what you pay for. The Sony has better color consistency, pixel fill and I have yet to see the issues described on the Epson and Panasonic show up for the Sony. Is that worth $1000? To me it is.
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post #87 of 99 Old 09-10-2013, 09:35 AM
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To me the Epson is better in 3D, but that is it. It also has a better lens, but the sharpness on screen is about the same, RC with blu ray is better than Superresolution and this makes the Sony a bit sharper on screen.

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post #88 of 99 Old 09-10-2013, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snyderkv View Post

Conveniently left out a whole bunch of Epson benefits but that's ok we are all fan boys to a degree.

Torch mode? You can adjust an Epson to be whatever lumen up to 2000+. Meaning it's much easier to go down in brightness than to go up with a Sony which would be impossible. It doesn't have to be "torch" mode as you put it.

Now I'm a fan boy? I was dead set on buying the Epson due to the cost savings but when I shopped around, and compared the two, the Sony came out on top. It's fine if that's not the case for you but you need to stop acting as if the Epson is somehow vastly superior.

If you had bothered to read the rest of my sentence, the only dealers willing to budge on the Epson price were those that you purchased a screen and/or other expensive items from. Most stuck with the price, or at most went to 10% discount after spending thousands elsewhere. Please provide a source for the street price of $2300.

And in the case of the input lag, it is not juts 16ms. No one has been able to reproduce that 50ms lag number. Most estimates put it at 60+. Moreover, since it does not have a dedicated game mode, the lag is inconsistent. Sometimes it will be as low as 60 (maybe even 50) but in the same exact mode without changing anything it can get much higher.

FYI, 16ms is one frame and 30+ is 2 frames. If you don't think that's significant for online, fast twitch games then obviously input lag isn't a big deal to you. You seem like an Epson fanboy way more than anyone here is a Sony fanboy.

- Klipsch RF-82 ii, RC-62 ii, RS-52 ii
- Klipsch RW-12D
- Sony HW50es
- Firehawk G3
- Denon 2113
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post #89 of 99 Old 09-10-2013, 11:23 AM
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Here is a good review for those that haven't seen it: http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article/we-three-projectors

- Klipsch RF-82 ii, RC-62 ii, RS-52 ii
- Klipsch RW-12D
- Sony HW50es
- Firehawk G3
- Denon 2113
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post #90 of 99 Old 09-10-2013, 11:27 AM
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In any case, please find me reviews where the Epson beat out the Sony. Since, you know, it's so vastly superior.

- Klipsch RF-82 ii, RC-62 ii, RS-52 ii
- Klipsch RW-12D
- Sony HW50es
- Firehawk G3
- Denon 2113
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Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

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Sony Vpl Hw50es 3d Projector , Epson 5020ub Powerlite Home Cinema 3d Front Projector , Epson Powerlite Home Cinema 8350
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