shouldnt this be the year for darkchip 5 or is texas insturments just stupid? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 46 Old 04-06-2013, 01:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Now that its been been about 6 years since darkchip 4 came out and other companies have made leeps and bounds since then shouldnt we be hearing about dakrchip 5 by now or soon? I mean sharp and jvc come out with new chips every year and they dont have that much sales volumes im sure theyre probably less than dlp what makes texas insturments so special? And now that they have darkchip 4 in what nearly 100000 cinemas dont they want to give cinemas a reason to upgrade? Its just baffling they havent announced something yet. Something has to be in the works right? Shouldnt we almost expect some new darkchip 5 announcement in the next few months? They announced darkchip 4 september 6th 2007. Once it hits 2014 it will be weird to see $50,000 projectors using 7 year old technology that is borderline ancient in terms of electronic time that was the year the departed won best picture and bush still had like a year and a half left in his presidency.

Then instead of people ogling over jvc projectors theyd be ogling over single chip dlps again like the old days.
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post #2 of 46 Old 04-06-2013, 06:23 AM
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I would be reasonably happy with reduced pricing on 3 chip DC4 machines. Or the quality of something like the SIM2 M.150 at a more reasonable price.

 

Digital projection is just one market segment for DLP. Texas instruments sells DLP into a variety of markets and applications such as spectroscopy, measurement systems, optical scanning, optical meteorology, medical scanning, etc. and it looks like business is good.

 

TI seems to be busy with the more commercial implementations of DLP vs home theater.  But you're right, it would be exciting to see some improvements.

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post #3 of 46 Old 04-06-2013, 07:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ComputerTech0903 View Post

And now that they have darkchip 4 in what nearly 100000 cinemas dont they want to give cinemas a reason to upgrade?

Cinemas use a completely different (larger) set of chips than home theater, I don't think they run "darkchip 4" DMDs in DCI projectors. Last I heard the "flagship" DMD for DCI was a 1.2" 4K DMD. On top of that, DCI specs call out only 2000:1 sequential contrast, you really don't need mega contrast in a theater due to the high ambient light levels caused by the required safety lighting.

If I had to guess, the next DMD we see (if we even see one) will probably be 4k, not an "improved" 1080p one.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #4 of 46 Old 04-06-2013, 08:02 AM
 
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The problem with DLP is the mirror size. A dark chip 4 with the larger chip gives much better contrast than the Dark chip4 with the smaller chip. Bigger mirrors equal more reflected light, so better contrast. So the problem comes with larger mirrors requiring bigger chips will also requires bigger lenses. Good lenses cost money and I don't see that changing. You could maybe use a large dark chip 4 chip with a decent plastic lens and a dynamic iris to help reduce costs and have good performance. I'm not sure how that would work out, but that is the only way I see good DLPs breaking into the lower price points.
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post #5 of 46 Old 04-06-2013, 08:33 AM
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The problem is that projectors are only a small market. Since companies stopped making DLP TV's the demand for home chips is way down. There is not much incentive for TI to spend the money to bring out a new chip. Hopefully I am wrong about this.
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post #6 of 46 Old 04-06-2013, 08:55 AM
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Have you ever thought that the technology has reached it's limit? I'm sure if TI thought it was worth it they'd pour money into research and development but I'm sure their engineers know that it isn't feasible at the current chip sizes to get more contrast out of them. Like others have said, for much better contrast you'd need a larger chip size. but the catch 22 is that you'd also need larger optics. The cost then becomes way too high and could only be purchased by the same group who buys the uber expensive Sim2 projectors.
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post #7 of 46 Old 04-06-2013, 09:20 AM
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I doubt TI will put any money into a new 1080p chip that is a significant improvement over DC4, more likely they will work on a 4K chip if anything. However currently only Christie, Barco and NEC are allowed to use TI's 4K DLP chips in their projectors (hence why SIm2's 4K is a re-engineered Christie). As Seegs said, the chips are larger and require larger optics etc. TI will probably try to produce a smaller 4K chip for the home market that is cheaper to manufacture and implement. The question is will it appear this year (if at all) and if so will the smaller maunfacturing process compromise overall performance compared to the larger 1080p chips?

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post #8 of 46 Old 04-06-2013, 09:56 AM
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So in terms of home theater projectors it looks like all our eggs are in the basket of companies like JVC and SONY...basically LCOS or bust for consumers like us looking for advances in image quality?
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post #9 of 46 Old 04-06-2013, 10:18 AM
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No. I still prefer the look of a .95" DC3 and DC4 DLP projector over Sony and JVCs LCoS 1080p machines. I always wondered why the high end companies stuck with DLP and didn't venture into LCoS. I think they are under the impression 3 chip DLP looks better than 3 chip LCoS when done correctly.
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post #10 of 46 Old 04-06-2013, 10:32 AM
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I think that it is still hard to beat a good DLP unit with a solid lens and the larger chip. It is kind of sad that most people are missing out. Don't get me wrong some of the current model DLP units are good but they are not close to the quality of the last single chip units from Sim 2, Runco /Planar or Marantz.
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post #11 of 46 Old 04-06-2013, 10:37 AM
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I wonder why Runco hasn't upgraded the LS5 for 3D. I would buy that projector if they added 3D capability.
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post #12 of 46 Old 04-06-2013, 10:40 AM
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Quit bitchin. The DLP projector manufacturers each year state they use on the latest TI DLP chips and most of their customers don't know the latest chip is 6 years old.

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post #13 of 46 Old 04-06-2013, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

I wonder why Runco hasn't upgraded the LS5 for 3D. I would buy that projector if they added 3D capability.

It wouldn't be bright enough for a screen your size. 2D lumen output once calibrated is roughly 650 lumens.
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post #14 of 46 Old 04-06-2013, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by BobL View Post

Bigger mirrors equal more reflected light, so better contrast.

They reflect as much more light contributing to blacks as to whites so on that basis CR is unchanged.

I believe the improvement comes from the increase in ratio of mirror area to mirror edge length, from which which light is reflected/refracted/scattered even when the mirrors are in the off position.

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post #15 of 46 Old 04-06-2013, 11:26 AM
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I was also under the impression they made the back plane of the chip darker to help catch stray light and increase contrast/black levels on the DC4 chip. I think that was the only distinct difference between DC3 and DC4.
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post #16 of 46 Old 04-06-2013, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

No. I still prefer the look of a .95" DC3 and DC4 DLP projector over Sony and JVCs LCoS 1080p machines. I always wondered why the high end companies stuck with DLP and didn't venture into LCoS. I think they are under the impression 3 chip DLP looks better than 3 chip LCoS when done correctly.

Oh I definitely understand that a portion of us still prefer some of the DLP units, but I'm talking about the future, the road to advancing image quality in home projection. If there is going to be no, or minimal advancement undertaken by the DLP camp, while LCOS manufacturers continue to improve, it suggests that the future is in LCOS (or, at least, not DLP).
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post #17 of 46 Old 04-06-2013, 01:29 PM
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They gave up because they can't obtain high lumens with high contrast with DLP due to limitations of the technology. I think they'd have to re-design it completely in order to get to the lumens we are getting out of todays' projectors and still get high contrast. There isn't that much point in making a new DC 5 machine which does 2000:1 on/off with 2000 lumens best-mode. Look at the Sony vw1000, near 1500 lumens calibrated. That isn't going to happen on a DLP with high contrast. There are many things they do beyond the DC chip to increase contrast in those higher-end PJ's of yesterday, they heavily coat the lens and light path as well as the mirrors, so there is always going to be the side effect of lower lumens from it because more of the light is absorbed rather than refracted or whatever. They'd need to do more than just DC 5, they'd need to re-do the way DLP works entirely and call it DLP v2. Many have said the DC chip is only helping 20% to 30%, the rest is the coatings and what not. No idea what would be possible if the budget were unlimited, but it never is, so that's not even an option to build some gargantuan optical system with triple coatings and a lamp that is 3x more powerful.


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post #18 of 46 Old 04-06-2013, 02:03 PM - Thread Starter
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How did they reach the contrast limits 6 years ago while lcos and LCD keep getting better.

You're saying in 6 years they couldn't get a 20% improvement.
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post #19 of 46 Old 04-06-2013, 02:06 PM
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I didn't say they couldn't get a 20% improvement, but that would hardly be comparable to an LCOS. They'd need 50% to 100% improvement.

I read the TI whitepaper on it, but it's foggy at this point, some people will remember me posting the PDF long ago. From what I remember, it was partly because the primary loss of contrast on a DLP happens at a different point in the light path than compared to an LCOS. There are more options with LCOS to add filters and what not, but the DLP has to be more open at a certain critical point due to the mirrors. So they are forced to use even more expensive optics to try to preserve what is left.


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the sim2 machines like the Lumis use DC4 chips and get plenty of on off using their implementation of a DI. The DC$ increases contrast over the DC$ by about 305. there is no reason to think a new chip could not bring a similar increase. the developmental and production costs probably couldn't be recouped however with the demise of rear projection panel DLP machines.

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post #21 of 46 Old 04-06-2013, 02:08 PM
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We are talking native, since dynamic will just be a multiple of native. It's like saying JVC's NEXT-GEN RS-67 can do 300,000:1 on/off with the DI, yah but they didn't build it to do that. It was all outlined in a TI whitepaper, it actually showed where the contrast was lost in the light path and how the MFR's could maximize preservation. So DI's don't mean much, different implementations will produce different results or multiples (whatever), just need to have some fair starting point like native.


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post #22 of 46 Old 04-06-2013, 02:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

I didn't say they couldn't get a 20% improvement, but that would hardly be comparable to an LCOS. They'd need 50% to 100% improvement.

I read the TI whitepaper on it, but it's foggy at this point, some people will remember me posting the PDF long ago. From what I remember, it was partly because the primary loss of contrast on a DLP happens at a different point in the light path than compared to an LCOS. There are more options with LCOS to add filters and what not, but the DLP has to be more open at a certain critical point due to the mirrors. So they are forced to use even more expensive optics to try to preserve what is left.

If lcos is so much better why havent more movie theaters adopted Sony lcos cinema projectors and almost all are dlp
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post #23 of 46 Old 04-06-2013, 02:12 PM
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I didn't say it was better, just higher contrast. Well at movie theaters they have ambient light due to safety issues which ruins the native on/off anyhow, so the commercial benefits for higher on/off are not as great as the benefits at our homes.


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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

the sim2 machines like the Lumis use DC4 chips and get plenty of on off using their implementation of a DI. The DC$ increases contrast over the DC$ by about 305. there is no reason to think a new chip could not bring a similar increase. the developmental and production costs probably couldn't be recouped however with the demise of rear projection panel DLP machines.

Couldn't the same be said for Epson Sony and jvc why keep improving and spending money when there is no rear projection sets any more when they just sell projectors how will they get back their cost of research and development and production.
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post #25 of 46 Old 04-06-2013, 02:22 PM
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I think the hope is the new hybrid LED or laser machines I suppose, those can be made to have much higher contrast it seems, but it's been a rough start for those units.


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post #26 of 46 Old 04-06-2013, 02:26 PM
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TI pretty much abandoned development on consumer based DLP chips awhile ago. They laid off the majority of the workers that were in that division and haven't done anything with it since. This is what I heard from multiple manufacturers a few years back and I've heard nothing different since. There just wasn't a big enough market to justify development for them (which is getting even smaller now) and they were concentrating their development on the pro side (D-Cinema, commercial applications). I don't expect to see anything new from DLP on the consumer side anymore honestly.

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post #27 of 46 Old 04-06-2013, 02:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

I didn't say it was better, just higher contrast. Well at movie theaters they have ambient light due to safety issues which ruins the native on/off anyhow, so the commercial benefits for higher on/off are not as great as the benefits at our homes.

Are you sure that's the actual reason did you read that or are you just throwing out a huge guess most theaters I go to get pretty dang dark
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post #28 of 46 Old 04-06-2013, 02:30 PM
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Well, it's not the main reason, but the main reason is because the screens are so large that they have to open up the light path so much, that commercial projectors are MADE to be much brighter and not higher contrast. I should have highlighted that reason more so, but the end result is the same for both reasons, they use lower contrast / brighter projectors.


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post #29 of 46 Old 04-06-2013, 02:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Why don't Sony jvc Epson or Panasonic make a $20000 projector with mercury or high wattage xenon lamps so basically tons of lumens with really nice lens then like sim2 does or Christie digital with 3 chip dlp
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post #30 of 46 Old 04-06-2013, 02:33 PM
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Why doesn't Microsoft make a PC more like an Apple, I don't know, because people make what they know best I suppose. Companies tend to focus on certain things.


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