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post #31 of 55 Old 04-14-2013, 06:03 AM
 
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Coderguy, I'd love to continue this discussion but you have some facts wrong.  First any decent acoustic class demonstrates the difference of different placement of speakers.  A/B in different set ups is something I have seen many times as I am sure many other professional have.  As well as having A/B's screens side by side and not samples.  But to not take this discussion off topic the OP already has a screen and it appear speakers.  That part of his system is done and probably doesn't want to spend more money trying to change it.  So it doesn't matter the differing opinions that is not what he is asking.

 

Gomdaf, an A-len is the best solution for a scope screen.  The zoom method is a poor man's method.  You have the budget for an A-lens and the lens is something you can use if you upgrade your projector in the future.  The website I linked has information on which projectors will work and I think we all agree it is either the Epson or Sony.  Both are good projectors and each has its tradeoffs.  The first thing to look at is will the projector fit where you would like to mount it?  Not only the throw distance but the amount of vertical lens shift you may need.  They both should work for throw distance where you plan to mount it.  Where is the projector going to be placed in relation to the screen's height? Is it going to be above the screen?  If so how far above?  It is tough to tell by your pictures what the height difference will be.  The Epson has a greater range of lens shift and I'm sure would work, the Sony probably will but if it doesn't are you willing to lower it some?  You'll have to decide what is best for you.

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post #32 of 55 Old 04-14-2013, 07:11 AM - Thread Starter
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I certainly don't mind going off topic with the audio/AT debate. I considered different options before building the screen wall and this is what I settled on. Taking in various opinions is always helpful in formulating your own. Exactly what the nature of a forum is all about. But you are correct in saying the audio and screen portion of the build is done (minus some wall treatments and bass trapping) and is staying the way it is. I'm actually thrilled with it.

This forum has been the source of knowledge for nearly every aspect of my theater build. It's been a little over a year in the making smile.gif I have some legacy M&K S-150's acrosss the front that in my opinion, all though old, sound fantastic. There are also two 18" DIY Dayton subs tucked behind the screen that i've tamed a little with X32 but am planning on the miniDSP once all of the wall treatments are done. The DIY sub project was very gratifying and these things slam! I would highly recommend to anyone. I'm vey happy with the sound and i'm sure i'll be thrilled once room treatments are upl

Anyway...back to the regularly scheduled program.

The PJ can be mounted anywhere on the ceiling. I have the power and cables in the ceiling and can cut and drop anywhere. The only thing I have to take into consideration is the seating. Directly above the first row is around 13. 5 feet and the heads of the second row sit at around 19 feet. My prefferred and easiest mount would be on a shelf in the very back (as described by the first picture) that puts the lens of the projector about 20' out. It would be a head knocker if mounted in the isle of the second row wich is between 14 and 18 ft. I would like to keep the PJ tucked as close to the ceiling as possible. The ceiling is about 9.5 inchees higher than the top of the viewable screen area.

Seeing as I have the ability to mask down the image, if I cant light up a 138" wide at this point, what would be an acceptable size for say an hs50 or JVC? I can always start off big and mask down as the bulb dims if I truly find it unacceptable.
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post #33 of 55 Old 04-14-2013, 08:19 AM
 
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I would just use the shelf it is a good spot for either of the projectors and an aesthetic solution.  The offset will work with either the Sony, Epson or JVC.  It also gives more of theater feel when the image is projected from behind you. Farther also helps when using an A-lens. Going closer helps with some added brightness and if you plan to use your system for games like Wii or Kinect because you can stand and not be a shadow.  If using the Zoom method for 2.35 close is not an option with those projectors.

 

Typically with larger screens people tend to use brighter modes rather than mask down to make a smaller image.  Nobody wants to go smaller:-)  The brighter modes are a good tradeoff and that's the JVC's problem is its brighter modes aren't much brighter than its best modes.  The Sony is brighter in best mode of the three projectors and has decent brighter modes.  The Epson has the brightest of the bright modes but is not as bright as the Sony in best mode.  For ambient light and 3D the brightness becomes even a greater factor and best modes aren't as important.  As with other aspects of HT you'll have to decide which aspects are most important to you.

 

The Panny could still be an option as a hold me over until the new projectors.  It is bright enough for 3D and in its brighter modes.  It is not bright enough in its best picture quality mode.  And you can use the zoom method with it but I'd still consider an A-lens no matter which projector you choose.  It is just the best way to do it and not that hard to set up.

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post #34 of 55 Old 04-14-2013, 09:16 AM
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Like I said Gomdaf, all my projectors easily light up my screen and although not quite as big as yours it's still fairly large. It's also a Seymour screen.

I would try to place the projector as close as you can to get all the much needed lumens you can. All my projectors are watched in best mode and I don't burn bulbs that premature. I'll probably replace my bulbs at around 1200-1500 hours, still not bad (based on my previous Epson's).

The A-lens is the ultimate option with your wide screen and if you have to place your projector closer and right above your seating area, then the HW50 with its whisper quiet fan is also a plus.

I'm not sure where you are located but if you live anywhere near Toronto, I would take down my JVC and you could test it on your screen so you can see how it looks. If not, try and find someone in your area who would be willing to do the same. Most people on this forum wouldn't think twice about doing that.

Good luck,
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post #35 of 55 Old 04-14-2013, 12:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the offer Crabalocker, thats very generous. I live in the suburbs of Chicago, not exactly right around the corner unfortunately smile.gif

I was doing some math on the Sony and it looks like it has a little less zoom than the others. I'd have to be right around 18 feet to hit the 120 16x9. That puts it directly overhead the 2nd row instead of a little behind it. Does the addition of the A lens in that scenario effect mounting distances?

Dang man, I keep going back to the Panny for price, installation and auto zoom, low lag, fairly quite.... Is it really the wrong choice here? Seems like people either love them or hate them. Unfortunately it's about the only one I CANT see in person. I guess it boils down to how innaccurate the higher lumen modes are which i'm sure will be highly subjective around here.

Any direction I should start researching for the A lens? I just hesitate for the added expense and the added mechanics hanging overhead with a fairly low ceiling to begin with. That new CineVista Panamorph linked earlier seems very reasonably priced but i'm sure you sacrifice something or they would'nt have higher priced ones..
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post #36 of 55 Old 04-14-2013, 05:41 PM
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@Some earlier comments
There is no NORMAL way to A/B with speakers in different placements with different accoustical treatments, you'd need 2 of some speakers mounted and a quick way to change treatments (and who is going to do that in a small room other than at an audio lab - test room), I don't mind debating but sometimes i think people pull rabbits out of their hats to win a debate. Yah I've heard the difference walking between rooms, but not in the same room. It's honestly not a good test.

I also think it does make a difference, never said it didn't, I just think the difference is exaggerated from what I've heard myself. We can have different opinions, I've talked to audio pro's myself and not all have the same opinion on it, one guy has specifically told me he can fix that problem with accoustical treatments by re-configuring treatments and sound. I haven't gotten around to trying it myself.

He did say the tricks you use will not work in larger rooms to correct it, so I can understand why people get AT screens, but I also think people sacrifice too much sometimes to do so. My opinion on this isn't that set in stone, but contrary to what some said, I don't have any facts wrong smile.gif

I just have an opinion on it, it's subjective.


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post #37 of 55 Old 04-14-2013, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crabalocker View Post

Like I said Gomdaf, all my projectors easily light up my screen and although not quite as big as yours it's still fairly large. It's also a Seymour screen.

Are you talking calibrated lumens?

We all have different opinions on how bright it needs to be, but honestly (and I'm not saying your setup isn't perfect, might be), you do lose some POP in the image with it dimmer, but yah it still looks good in many cases.

That said we have to tell people based on the standards, because standards are there for a reason, it's so we have a general idea how to guide people. Even though it works for you, it strays from the standard and not everyone will feel the same way about it. I mean you can shout it from the mountain top, but that shout should come with a disclaimer is all I'm saying.


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post #38 of 55 Old 04-14-2013, 06:08 PM
 
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Its easy to move speakers in the same room and put up treatments.  It is not a hard test.

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post #39 of 55 Old 04-14-2013, 06:10 PM
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So you bring extra speakers and treatments to Joe the Plumbers house and do all the added wiring just to test moving the treatments around...
A/B is not testing it 30-60 minutes later, A/B means instant testing one after another.

That said, I know it makes a difference, but at what cost for that difference. You can still have good sound in a small room without an A/T screen, in a big room it's much much harder. Some of you do have bigger rooms.


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post #40 of 55 Old 04-14-2013, 08:59 PM
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My professionally calibrated JVC puts out 13-14fl in best mode on my 153" screen. I calibrated my W7000 myself using ChromaPure with a D3 Pro meter. I can't get the fl reading from chromapure because the program shuts down when I try to read it but it is noticeably brighter than my JVC so I'm guessing it's around 18-20 fl???? (probably closer to 16 in reality???) again, in best mode. I understand I'm gonna' go through bulbs faster than someone with a 106" screen but that's the price I'M willing to pay....for my experience.

The biggest, noticeable and smile factor effect I got from my AT screen was a scene when a push cart moved from left to right across the screen. It was a very simple scene but that squeaky wheel was exactly matched audibly to visual reference with a pin point accuracy that gave me a grin that went from ear to ear. Not only was the imaging spot on but the seamless transition from my three fronts was amazing. This one scene alone sold me on the AT screens advantages and I SEE absolutely no disadvantage. This is my personal experience and will never go back.

Having my SubMersive holding down the bottom end has added a whole new experience to my home viewing as well. The way I feel my experience now is unreal and I could not live without feeling my theater experience ever again. Subjective, I know. The only down side I see...I mean hear is possible tinnitus. Let's hope not!
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post #41 of 55 Old 04-14-2013, 10:23 PM
 
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You have to find the best spot for speakers before treatment as a treaments can only be done after you know where the speakers are going to be placed.  The type of treatment is determined by the response of the speaker where it reflects off of surfaces.  Sometimes it is absorption, diffusion, diffraction or nothing at all.   Two of us will be placing acoustic treatments tomorrow and possibly the into next day as we calibrate a dedicated room.  It is what our company does.

 

  In fact Tuesday we are bringing an HW50 to a customer so he can compare them on his screen.  He already compared the JVC X-35 and Epson and chose the Epson.  Although the X-35 admittingly has better 2D but it wouldn't work for his use.  He did comment on how good both were and thought that by the forums the JVC was going to blow away the Epson.  He didn't find the JVC that much better for 2D and liked the Epson's versatility better for ambient light viewing which he plansto use.  Both projectors were calibrated but not for his screen but they were similar white screens.  He has the Espon now but might change it out for the Sony if he likes that better.  The Sony was back ordered so he couldn't see them all together at first but we'll let him swap it out if he likes the Sony better.  We won't have time to calibrate the Sony before viewing it.  I'll let you know his comments and what he chooses.

 

The problem is not the room but the screen size.  A 92" screen, sure no problem incorporating speakers with a non AT screen.  When the screen covers most of the front wall there is not many places to put speakers.  Corners are a bad location, the floor is not a great spot for the center.  In a room like the OP if he had a non-AT screen with two rows of seating the only practical place would be above the screen and treat the ceiling.  That way the sound can reach the second row without being blocked by the first row.  In a one row theater you could use small stands with the speakers angled up and place the screen higher.

 

  If the speakers are above the screen you have to make sure your screen isn't too low to ensure the second row has a good sight line to see the whole screen, or you may have to make a taller riser.  The other limitation is speaker size when doing this.  Small speakers simply do not have the dynamics larger speakers do and when trying fill a room with seating 19' away.   That speaker size can be an issue when mounting above the screen.  The OP speakers would probably need ~15" when angled toward the listening area.  That would put his screen less than a foot off the floor and would require a riser of at least a foot for decent sight lines.  A non-AT screen would just be tough in the OP room, not to mention he already has the screen and speakers.

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post #42 of 55 Old 04-15-2013, 01:53 AM
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LCD looks flat on some scenes and I wasn't happy with the Epson sharpness on HTPC text, but it depends on how well converged the JVC is. I've said it before, but I'll say it again, LCD is inconsistent, suddenly it has more POP than it has less POP depending on the scene makeup, it's distracting to me (plus the IRIS is also annoying). I don't dislike the Epson, but I couldn't use it as close as I sit for my main viewing. A casual observer might think the Epson is almost as good as the JVC if they aren't sitting super close to the screen, but I doubt anyone that had a well-converged JVC comparing the HTPC text would think a well-converged Epson is as good in sharpness.

I would think the room size does matter because the sound stage is smaller so there is less division on where the sound is coming from, and I don't have a back-row of seating. Both room size and screen size affect speaker placement. Placement just doesn't matter as much in my room because it's narrow but long and I sit so close to the screen that the speakers are too close anyways. Though I suppose the biggest advantage to an AT screen in my room would be that the speakers could be built-into the wall so then they are farther back to create a slightly better speaker angle, but I'm not going to give up my HP for 1.0 gain. I won't go 1.0 gain until these PJ's are at 1500 to 2000 lumens best mode.

The Epson is a good projector, but LCD is LCD, and if they sit close it doesn't look as good, the two PJ's are not that comparable in my book, but to each their own. Most of us long-term projector owners at AVS gave up on LCD a while back, we're all DLP or LCOS except a few that bought the Epson for 3D. I will say the Epson gets closer to the JVC if people sit farther back, but when you sit close up it looks a lot rougher in my opinion. I don't even like DLP HTPC text anymore at my seating distance, I prefer LCOS cause text looks smooth but sharp.


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post #43 of 55 Old 04-15-2013, 06:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

I will have to say that I politely doubt some of the theory in here about AT screens for the average size screens we use in our rooms. Though I am not more than 80% certain of my own theory either smile.gif

There is no reason (theoretically) in a small room with screens under say 140" (don't have exact number, let's use this for a reference), that small changes in placement of only one speaker (ok sometimes more) should affect the sound so greatly if accoustical treatments, sound calibrations, EQ, and angles are used to properly redirect that sound. For larger screens, I do see the problem and NEED for AT screens, because sound waves are altered enough. I just don't see the theory working in Joe the Plumber's home theater room to any huge degree (I gave it 10% to 20% benefit of doubt). I might be wrong, but this is my theory (and people probably get sick of my heavy theoretical attitude, but it is what it is).

I doubt many (if any) of you have actually A/B'd this AT screen vs. regular screen with the same equipment on both setups (that is pretty hard to do), after a proper compensation.
We should know by now how many opinions of our own or others have been wrong when we haven't been able to A/B something.

Cheers...

I have. I used to use a solid screen with the center below the screen. After determining that I could go with an AT screen, I decided to test. Did not want to test, if I could not go with AT screen, since ignorance is bliss some times. To test, I listened to some scenes that I use for testing. Scenes that I have listened to 100's of times and know real well. I then moved the center speaker in front of the solid screen, matching height with mains. Re-calibrated and listened to those scenes again. The voices were now more tied to the image on the screen and it became much more apparent, when I moved the center speaker back down below the screen (aimed at listening position). Before the test, I thought that the center speaker sounded very good in my room and was tied to the image very well. After the test, it clearly showed me the difference and I moved to an AT screen. I would not recommend doing this test, if you are not planning on going to an AT screen. As I said ignorance can be bliss. I used all of the same equipment in the same room. As I said, I doubt that I ever go back to a solid screen in my dedicated room.

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post #44 of 55 Old 04-15-2013, 06:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gomdaf View Post

I certainly don't mind going off topic with the audio/AT debate. I considered different options before building the screen wall and this is what I settled on. Taking in various opinions is always helpful in formulating your own. Exactly what the nature of a forum is all about. But you are correct in saying the audio and screen portion of the build is done (minus some wall treatments and bass trapping) and is staying the way it is. I'm actually thrilled with it.

This forum has been the source of knowledge for nearly every aspect of my theater build. It's been a little over a year in the making smile.gif I have some legacy M&K S-150's acrosss the front that in my opinion, all though old, sound fantastic. There are also two 18" DIY Dayton subs tucked behind the screen that i've tamed a little with X32 but am planning on the miniDSP once all of the wall treatments are done. The DIY sub project was very gratifying and these things slam! I would highly recommend to anyone. I'm vey happy with the sound and i'm sure i'll be thrilled once room treatments are upl

Anyway...back to the regularly scheduled program.

The PJ can be mounted anywhere on the ceiling. I have the power and cables in the ceiling and can cut and drop anywhere. The only thing I have to take into consideration is the seating. Directly above the first row is around 13. 5 feet and the heads of the second row sit at around 19 feet. My prefferred and easiest mount would be on a shelf in the very back (as described by the first picture) that puts the lens of the projector about 20' out. It would be a head knocker if mounted in the isle of the second row wich is between 14 and 18 ft. I would like to keep the PJ tucked as close to the ceiling as possible. The ceiling is about 9.5 inchees higher than the top of the viewable screen area.

Seeing as I have the ability to mask down the image, if I cant light up a 138" wide at this point, what would be an acceptable size for say an hs50 or JVC? I can always start off big and mask down as the bulb dims if I truly find it unacceptable.

With only 9.5" between top of image and the ceiling, both the Sony and Epson have plenty of lens shift for your situation.

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post #45 of 55 Old 04-15-2013, 08:39 AM
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Quote:
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Basically we are all telling you, that you can't do what you want at 2.5K. You can get a projector at that price point that is capable of zoom memory, but it will not have the lumens. Moving up to 5K-6K teritory, there are several options. If that 10% gaming is localized gaming, then I would go with a JVC and an A-lens. That can be had for your upper budget.

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I think the JVC will struggle to illuminate that size screen using the zoom method.

The JVCs have about 700 calibrated lumens. If your screen is 1.0 gain and your screen is 138" scope (then if you are zooming, you need to factor in the black bars that are projected so you are essentially projecting a 146" 16:9 image), then

700 lumens x 1.0 gain / 62.6 sq feet = 11.2 foot lamberts which is pretty dim and below the cinema 12-16 standard, and this is when the projector is new.

Adding an A-lens will help with some brightness. 10-20%.

The Sony ES95 has lens memory and I believe it has around 1000 calibrated lumens so that might be a better bet. Expensive though.

The panasonic has less calibrated lumens than the JVC, but it has the potential for more lumens in dynamic mode which might be ok for 3D for the kids.

Is there really any 5-6k PJ's that are brighter than say the Sony HW50 and has lens memory and is considered fairly good in black levels? The Sony ES95 does not have 1000 calibrated lumens, just claimed and calibrated will be lower. I think the replacement for the E95 could, given the cheaper but newer HW50 being brighter (I am a newbie so i don't have the pulse of the PJ market). But, as a newbie I am also vexed at the compromises. I am willing to spend $5-6k if it will give me lens memory, brightness of the HW50 and black levels similar to HW50 or JVC RS45. But there is none frown.gif (The HW50 has no lens memory but is bright enough, the ES95 has lens memory but not as bright. To me the JVC is the compromise for now. Not as bright as the HW50 but has lens memory and excellent blacks).

I don't have a good answer for the OP, except the replacement for the HW50 may have almost everything he wants, except great 3D viewing at that size.

I on the other hand, going for a 146" scope screen am getting a 2.4 gain High power Da-lite screen and the JVC RS45 which will give me everything the OP wants except gaming which I don't care for...
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post #46 of 55 Old 04-16-2013, 12:43 AM
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Nah nothing brighter with good black levels that I can think of.

Here is a funny story, I saw what appeared to be a dust blob on my JVC, and I was like what the heck...
It was moving around, I get up to go check the lens and I see a tiny tiny spider hanging from the ceiling in front of the lens, hah.


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post #47 of 55 Old 04-19-2013, 10:08 AM
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I'd look for a used, hi lumen projector and stay with AT.

I have an AT and think it is the only way to have a true cinematic experience. No voices coming from below the screen or pans that are slightly off center coming from speakers on the outside of the screen to the sides. It's a great way to go but more work and expense for sure. BUt the pay out is big when watching films. No speakers being lit up in bright screens, just a full black wall like the theater.

Here's my screen at 1..78 and 2.35 (AT). I have added masking as I prefer no black bars.


2.35


1.78

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post #48 of 55 Old 04-19-2013, 10:20 AM - Thread Starter
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I would consider that. What would be an example of a good used high lumen projector?
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post #49 of 55 Old 04-19-2013, 10:24 AM
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A used SIM2 Lumis, others. Projectors have a terrible resale. Sony Qualia would light up that screen. I had one with an older 10' AT. You could pick one up for about $1500. 2000 Lumens. Gorgeous picture but lacks really good blacks. Very cinematic with a Xenon bulb. Gorgeous colors.

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post #50 of 55 Old 04-19-2013, 10:44 AM
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The only problem with the Qualia 004 is that new bulbs cost roughly as much as the used units themselves. Plus they are hard to find. Genuine bulbs can be found for between $1000 -$1500.
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post #51 of 55 Old 04-19-2013, 10:50 AM
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You'll pay $700 for an OEM bulb. Money well spent. THe bulbs go 1500 hours in high mode. I had mine 5 years and sold it with 800 hours on the original bulb. Forget the bulb costs unless you plan on buying one every few months. It will allow you to get in the AT game with a bright picture.

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #52 of 55 Old 04-19-2013, 11:22 AM
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It all depends on his viewing habits. There are plenty of people who put 1500+ hours on their projectors in a year. After a few years the bulb replacements would cost more than the projector itself. If he can justify the cost of ownership then that's perfectly fine. I was just pointing out bulbs do cost quite a bit more than most others. I just replaced a bulb in my Marantz VP-15S1 and a genuine bulb cost me about $500. I know that makes me think twice about using it as often as I want. The purchase was justified by me because of the gorgeous picture it puts out. I guess the same could be said about the qualia.
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post #53 of 55 Old 04-19-2013, 12:33 PM
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I replaced my LUMIS bulb. AVS has the SIM2 bulb for $850 from SIM2. AVS sent me an identical bulb from another supplier that I inserted into my own housing... Cost from AVS? ~$150! There are other retailers that will supply the identical bulb for far less

If it costs $500 a year to run a projector @ 1500 hours and you like the picture and get what you want (AT screen with ample brightness), I think it is money well spent.

This bulb I just inserted should last me another 4 years.

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #54 of 55 Old 04-19-2013, 01:21 PM
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the original budget was 2.5k up to 5-6k. Even with an older model with high lumens, that leaves out 3D which was one of the requirements. If going this route, I'd recommend the Epson 5020 as the 2nd '3D' projector, it cranks out nearly 1400 lumens in 3D (with a near D65 cal behind the glasses). it's your best hope for acceptable 3D brightness with this large, low gain screen.
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post #55 of 55 Old 04-19-2013, 03:15 PM - Thread Starter
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10 to 15 hrs per week wouldn't surprise me. I don't think I'm game for an $800 bulb. I have kids...enough said smile.gif

The hw50 doesn't have the throw range for me to mount on a back shelf at 20 ft (prefered spot) so I think I've boiled it down to:

Panny 8000 (auto zoom)
Epson 5020 with Lumagen mini

Keeping in mind I will probably only keep this for a short while and sell for upgrade, which would give me the best picture in the higher lamp modes?

Do you guys think the lumagen would do OK with aspect changes? Nice thing here is I can use it in the next system for cals as well
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Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

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