Former CRT owners - What do you miss the most? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 26 Old 05-11-2013, 05:53 AM - Thread Starter
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My NEC-135LC projector is on the fritz again. I promised myself that the next time it died, I would bite the bullet and buy a bulb projector.

The time has come to move on. If Kal can do it so can I.

I see rainbows so DLP is out.

I have narrowed it down to a Sony HW50 or a JVC 4810. With either of these projectors I know I will miss not seeing the motion artifacts I see with bulb projectors, but understand that with the 240 Hz panels, the Sony does this better than the JVC. I will miss the fade to black and the room goes dark. I will miss that I finally got the Lumagen set to give good shadow detail without losing blacks, but from what I have read and seen here, either of these do this pretty well. At least it sounds like I will still get to keep fiddling after the initial setup since it sounds like as the bulb ages you still need to adjust settings.

Would any of you previous CRT owners care to offer your thoughts on what you miss and what you would recommend in transitioning from CRT to LCOS?

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post #2 of 26 Old 05-11-2013, 07:19 AM
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I really don't miss much about CRT projectors (owned them from 1974 thru 2006 ending with a Sony G70). Yes the fade to black is great on a good CRT, but the image resolution is better on a good digital projector. You didn't describe what your room setup will be nor the screen size and type you are wanting to use and those factors may impact what would be the best projector for your situation. Also are you interested in 3D, or only 2D? For 2D video viewing, I would rather have the JVC RS4810 over the Sony HW50ES (but both are very good), but for 3D the Sony has a brighter projected image with less 3D crosstalk/ghosting. The JVC with its e-shift 2 feature will give a very film like image. You may want to check out the Projector Reviews comparison report of home theater projectors -HERE. Also the JVC DLA-X55R described in that comparison report is essentially the same projector as the RS48 and the RS4810.



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post #3 of 26 Old 05-11-2013, 09:39 AM
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I left CRT a long time ago and currently own the Sony hw50. I couldn't imagine going back.

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post #4 of 26 Old 05-11-2013, 10:10 AM
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I miss the excitement of wondering whether it work when I turned it on, all the fun in continually converging it etc, and the great feeling of frustration when the repairman continually cancelled his repair visit for one reason or another. I miss the joy of having 3 or more friends over to help me mount and unmounts it from the ceiling. There is now a huge void in my life.


About all I ever have to do is R and R a bulb about once a year.

So its kinda like losing a hobby. You need another one.

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post #5 of 26 Old 05-11-2013, 11:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the reassurance Ron.

The room is light controlled, (no windows), black ceiling, dark grey walls, with a Stewart Studiotek 96x54, 1.5 gain screen. It is close to a bat cave. But enough white to keep the better half happy. I have masking for the top and bottom so do not need lens memory. I watch sports, so I will stick with the 16:9 screen. The hush box I built a while back will have to go (see picture below). That was a serious woodworking project and worked quite well. From what I can tell the new projectors are very quiet. I plan on placing the projector around 12-14 feet from the screen in the same location as the current one.

As far as 3-D goes, not a high priority, but do want the capability. Who knows, maybe it will be something the family really likes.

And Mark, after replacing the green tube in 2006, the projector has worked quite well and held convergence in the center amazingly well. Guess I always had some pride in ownership or a badge of courage for taking on the challenge of doing the calibration myself as time went on.


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post #6 of 26 Old 05-11-2013, 01:45 PM
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I also used CRT front projectors for about ten years from 1999 to 2009.

I went through several also ending up with a g70.

I must say I loved the g70. I bought all new tubes directly from Sony. I ran it at 1080p. Some would say that wouldn't fully resolve but it had a sharp detailed picture.

I believe my g70 was made in 2001. I can't believe it got fritzy in just a few years time but it did. It developed problems and it was difficult to pull down and reseat over and over.

I had a hush box that weighed as much as the pj and complicated duct work leading the ventilated air away.

The combined weight hanging over my kids while they watched cartoons really scared me.

So, I looked at some digitalis and they were good enough. Not the Greatest ever feeling you get from CRT but a lot easier to live with.
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post #7 of 26 Old 05-11-2013, 02:41 PM
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I ended up with highly modified electrohome ultras, all retubed. the last draw for me was when the spot kill circuit for the green tube failed and the tube needed to be retubed. I would say my Sony 1000ES surpasses it in most every regard except black reference level.

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post #8 of 26 Old 05-11-2013, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jacket_fan View Post

Thanks for the reassurance Ron.

The room is light controlled, (no windows), black ceiling, dark grey walls, with a Stewart Studiotek 96x54, 1.5 gain screen. It is close to a bat cave. But enough white to keep the better half happy. I have masking for the top and bottom so do not need lens memory. I watch sports, so I will stick with the 16:9 screen. The hush box I built a while back will have to go (see picture below). That was a serious woodworking project and worked quite well. From what I can tell the new projectors are very quiet. I plan on placing the projector around 12-14 feet from the screen in the same location as the current one.

As far as 3-D goes, not a high priority, but do want the capability. Who knows, maybe it will be something the family really likes.

And Mark, after replacing the green tube in 2006, the projector has worked quite well and held convergence in the center amazingly well. Guess I always had some pride in ownership or a badge of courage for taking on the challenge of doing the calibration myself as time went on.


Nice looking hush box Mark. smile.gif It is about the size of some subs I have built.

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post #9 of 26 Old 05-12-2013, 10:24 AM - Thread Starter
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I can't believe that folks won't miss this sight


Mike, my subs are smaller, but weigh a lot more (flat to 10 Hz:)

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post #10 of 26 Old 05-12-2013, 10:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Mr. Haflich, I recall you set up. Truly impressive in your CRT heyday!

I was lucky to have chuchuf nearby to help me with my projector over the years. Not sure what happened to Terry.

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post #11 of 26 Old 05-12-2013, 01:03 PM
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Wow, this thread could have been titled ' life after a Sony G70'.   I too had a G70 for 10 years firing onto a Stewart 1.5 110" diag screen.  It threw a gorgeous image that really made it hard to decide to go digital.  But it used to bug the heck out of me that I had use horizontal masking to watch many of the movies that were in 2.35 and shrink that image down.  I wanted a big screen experience and this was throwing a wet rag on the whole deal.  As I read about anamorphic lens and ability of projectors/vp to fill the whole screen and use all the pixels without zooming I was hooked when JVC released it's RS2 with it's reported black levels competitive with crt and could do the vertical stretch without an additional VP.  That's when I got the 120x51 screen, a lens, rs2, then 20 and now sony vw95.  That size image sitting about 13 feet from the screen is brighter than the G70 on the smaller  higher gain screen and really brings the big cinema experience into your home theater.  Picture quality overall is better, I have no measuring equipment or know how calibrate but the sum of contrast, brightness, clarity/detail, shadow detail present a more engaging visual experience.  Obviously this is based on these few projectors with the vw95 being the best and most recent, but I think you'll hear this from most of the newer pj owners coming from crt unless they had stacked 9" crt tricked out to the max.  Of course if you had those you'd probably be considering a  3 chip DLP or vw1000 which would probably in most aspects expect absolute black level would still produce an overall better picture and fill a larger screen.

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post #12 of 26 Old 05-13-2013, 09:08 PM
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Hey, I have a G70 too. biggrin.gif

I am going to use my G90 till it dies or Mike talks me into a new digital in Denver.wink.gif

Honestly the only thing you will miss is the black level and motion resolution. If those aren't really important to you then you should be ok. If you like blacks then you might want to consider the JVC a little more than the Sony. As Mark said, you will also miss all of the other stuff that goes with CRT including noise. Crabb has mentioned this as one of the best aspects of buying his JVC.

It sounds like you have already read it, but Kal detailed his conversion over at Curt's forum.

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post #13 of 26 Old 05-14-2013, 03:10 PM
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Heh, this must be the G70 reunion thread, as I'm still using my G70 after 13 years of near-perfect running (B-board needed repair in 2008, and Curt turned it around in a week). But after 10,650 hours (and counting), I'm ready to pull the trigger on a JVC DLA-X55 myself.

Hey Jacket_fan, I'm just a few miles north of you, so let me know if you hear what happened to Terry (chuchuf) as I bought my G70 from him.

Jonathan


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post #14 of 26 Old 05-14-2013, 08:51 PM
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I miss people wondering how that massive thing stuck to the ceiling. smile.gif

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post #15 of 26 Old 05-15-2013, 03:09 AM
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My wife and I sat under a Marquee 9501; she fondly referred to our love seat as the 'kill zone'. The unistrut is still attached to the ceiling . . .
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post #16 of 26 Old 05-15-2013, 06:04 AM
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Many CRT guys get together for reunions even several times per year. To me, it must be like war prisoners getting together and then celebrating the good times they had as prisoners. they really were the good old days with people helping each other, tricks of set up, modifications, group meets to help mounting and unmounting etc. Now, its all pretty much cut and dried.

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post #17 of 26 Old 05-15-2013, 10:15 AM
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I've had a CRT projector from 2000 to January 2013. First Barco 800, then a NEC XG for a short while, then a Zenith 1200 (Barco Cine 8 Onyx - limited edition - a higher end 8" LC unit with EM focussing but somewhat soft lenses since it has only 1 focus ring per lens).

Since January 2013 I've had a JVC RS56 and now have put 500 hours on it.

There's really nothing at all I miss about CRT. Nothing at all. This RS56 is considerably better than my Zenith 1200 in all regards, all except for extended fade to black. That said, the blacks on this RS56 are extremely good. The difference isn't something that anyone is going to notice or care about.

After 500 hours of watching real content on the RS56 (and a bunch of test material too) there isn't one time where I thought "this would look better with a lower black level".

Quite the opposite actually: I spent many nights going through my collection rewatching stuff I had seen dozens of times and every single time I thought to myself "wow - the RS56 is better". Sometimes it was close, but usually not. The RS56 has more detail, more image pop, more depth. I see no problems with motion control as is the issue with some digitals.

I find the CRT black level argument a bit of a fallacy / false argument since it's a combination of factors that makes a picture great, not one quality. Yes, if you sit and watch a 0 IRE field then a properly calibrated CRT can have a lower black level than a properly calibrated digital, but that's not what we watch.

I was concerned that the digital would suffer near black, that I'd have washed out details but the opposite was true. I prefer my RS56. I have not however seen something like a properly stacked G90.

I have absolutely no interest in going back to CRT and I'm saying that purely from a image quality standpoint and am completely ignoring factors like easy of setup, size, ventilation requirements, noise (as all those can be worked out with CRT). I'm all for doing a bunch of extra work to get a marginal improvement to image quality but you won't see me going back to CRT even if a CRT wasn't more work to setup, harder to install (due to size/weight), and so forth.

I gave my initial thoughts here too for those looking to jump from CRT to digital as terminology and installation is a bit different and I read to "relearn" some things:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1424183/new-jvc-dla-x75r-dla-rs56-7-999-projector-with-3d-rf-glasses-and-e-shift-cedia-2012/30#post_22772870

Kal

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post #18 of 26 Old 05-15-2013, 10:26 AM
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Kal - what impact did e-shift have on your overall viewing preferences? Would you have been ok with a JVC model that didn't have it?

You may have seen some of my e-shift1 and e-shift2 comparisons, there are some subtle yet unique differences between the 2 model years.

thanks for your input.


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post #19 of 26 Old 05-15-2013, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

Kal - what impact did e-shift have on your overall viewing preferences? Would you have been ok with a JVC model that didn't have it?

You may have seen some of my e-shift1 and e-shift2 comparisons, there are some subtle yet unique differences between the 2 model years.
I did see your pictures and meant to ask if you noticed the same sort of 'odd' scaling with content instead of built-in text from the JVC menus (I think your shots were from the internal menus).

I've never noticed odd scaling jaggies like that from PS3 menus or other small content (PS3 games, etc). Edit: I should point out that I use eshift 2 in "film" mode with all 3 sliders (enhance, dynamic contrast, and smoothing) set to 0 on the 0-100 range (where 50 was the original default).

I haven't spent much time with eshift2 off but did do some tests early on but they were only quick: From about 11 feet back from my 8 foot wide screen it's very hard for my eyes to tell the difference with it on/off, so for me, having eshift2 seems mostly like a nice to have feature that makes the results look more 'crt like' when I'm up close to the screen. I should try turning it off for a few weeks and then back on to see if I notice any difference with regular Blu-ray content from my standard sitting position. That would probably be the best test. My guess is that I could live without it happily.

My main reason for going with the RS56 over other units was the fear of not getting enough contrast ratio to keep me happy as compared to what I was used to. I wasn't able to view any models ahead of time (local dealers didn't have the 2013 models and the 2012 models they had were not correctly set up) so I bought the most contrast ratio I could that fit in my budget. I also wanted the sub-pixel convergence adjustments - just in case). I was more focussed on choosing between the RS56 and RS66 actually and in the end decided to take a 'chance' on the RS56. No regrets.

Kal

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post #20 of 26 Old 05-15-2013, 11:00 PM
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I never got the point of owning a G70, though I wanted one badly. My budget for theater gear was a lot smaller then. I had to settle for a lowly Sony 1271.

I miss the coffee table I built to hide the thing.

I miss the tube swapping Saturdays where I'd burn an entire day swapping out one or more tubes and then converging the projector.

I miss zero input lag when gaming.

I miss trying to figure out how to get engineered joists to handle the weight of the projector. I even cut a hole in the ceiling only to find that there was a large pipe running right where I wanted to mount the thing.

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post #21 of 26 Old 05-15-2013, 11:43 PM
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The way I see it, it's only a matter of screen size.
For screen size of 90" and smaller, I have never seen anything that outperforms 9" LC CRT.
It's not just fade to black; we're not talking about a dynamic iris here, its huge native contrast.
I've tested several 3K$ digitals in my small beta cave and non of them gave the depth of my Braco G1209s.
I have seen several JVC models and the sony VW95 too, but not in an a/b comparison with a CRT.
The digitals are sharper, no doubt about that, but I see no other advantages over a good 9" CRT + VP combination.
On large screens, it's a whole different ball game, the CRT still throws a very decent picture, but it's really not fair to compare 18-20FTL picture with 10FTL picture.
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post #22 of 26 Old 05-16-2013, 09:21 PM
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Kal,
But what about all of the real deep black scenes that comprise a majority of all the films ever made. You know like the coffin scene in Kill Bill, the scene in Finding Nemo and the one in Cars. Wait I guess that is only about 45 seconds of 10 hours of movies.biggrin.gif

I once said that 10k to 1 on/off cr would be the cut off point for a lot of CRTers. I still think that is about right. I know the DLP that I owned was nice, but I was pulled out of a lot scenes because of the low on/off.

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post #23 of 26 Old 05-31-2013, 04:46 PM
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I have had E-home 9500LC Ultra and a Sony G90. Both were great projectors. It was so hard for me to sell my G90 I even had my RS60 mounted under it and would alternate. I finally ate the bullet and sold the G90. I had about a day of pain and it gradually left. I know have the RS66 and never once regret selling my CRTs. I also had the "hanging the tank over our heads" concerns and the fear that somethign would break and I would have to pull the beast down. The cost of convergence and setup and god forbid any type of repair was an issue. There was also nobody anywhere near me that could do any repair or setup/maintanance if needed. I love my RS66 with my Panamorph 480 on my cinema scope screen. Never looking back!

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post #24 of 26 Old 06-02-2013, 12:02 PM
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Honestly, I miss nothing about CRT any more. My last one was a Runco 990, that's an NEC PG10 painted black for the uninformed. wink.gif It threw a great image, but was still quite noisy and I fiddled around with it more than I watched it. The last straw for me was that when I switched the entire house over to a central media server/client configuration, the CRT just would not play nice with the computer.

I did same tests with the Runco and a few digitals sitting on top of it both calibrated to the screen. I then matched the Runco as close as possible by adjusting the digital. I then did an A/B comparison.

Well, on a good digital the difference was basically zip with the exception of absolute black level. In some cases the shadow detail was actually BETTER on the digital, which I didn't expect. I saw things in a few Harry Potter movies that the CRT for whatever reason just swallowed up. I was very surprised!

Lastly, I turned off the runco and the image stayed on the screen with an almost deafening silence to go with it. THAT was the final sale. Silence.

The technology HAS closed the gap and is just FAR more user friendly now. The big beast is gone, the silent Epson 8700UB is on the ceiling working flawlessly with the the media PC, and the FAMILY is happy.

NO regrets! But I will admit, this has only become possible in the last couple of years. Before then, CRT was the undisputed king of image hands down.

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post #25 of 26 Old 06-02-2013, 03:38 PM
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I would echo that. I really miss nothing from my CRT days. The only possible exception is the group togetherness CRT owners had, sharing tricks, upgrades, info, and getting together over great distances to fiew CRT stacks and blends. Sort of like classic old sport car get togethers. Keep the beast running and often sharing certain miseries. The one thing is that if you had several CRTs stacked or blended, you had s much misery that the rest of your life was perfect. Never even would you get a cold. An application of the law of distributed misery. The CRTs gave you more than your average share of misery.

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post #26 of 26 Old 06-03-2013, 04:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Jonathan,

I have not been in contact with Terry for at least a couple of years. Great guy. His basement was a CRT extravaganza. It was great having him only a few miles away.

Mark
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