Sony master in 4k blu-rays on our projectors - enhanced colors? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 28 Old 05-17-2013, 04:03 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm interested in picking up a few of these new discs to watch on my JVC X90. My questions relate to my projector but probably there are many others that may fall into the same category.

From the Spiderman mastered in 4k bluray review:

Though not actually presented in 4K, the transfer was sourced from a 4K master and has been optimized for upscaling on Sony's UHDTV displays. According to the package, support for expanded color on xvYCC-compatible TVs and Blu-ray players has also been added.

Does xvYCC mean enabling deep color? I've been reading this article:

http://www.abccables.com/info-xvycc-and-deep-color.html

In the article, I see this statement:

The xvYCC color standard is used along with deep color to give a crystal clear picture that is full of clarity.

This is intruiging but I don't quite understand how it all pieces together and how I should set up my display chain. My blu-ray player is deep colour compatible, along with my projector. Under X90 features, I find this statement:

Deep Color - Full 10 bit (12 bit supported)
xvYCC support

The abccable article also says:

The difference between xvYCC and deep color is easy to understand. Deep color maximizes the numbers of available colors within the borders defined by the color space Red, Green, Blue, or RGB, or the color space YCbCr, while xvYCC maximizes the available range, or limits, to allow for the display of colors that will meet and even exceed what the human eye can recognize.

in summary, is there gains to be had in the display chain with these new discs by enabling deep color and/or, had anybody got these discs and tried using the deep color settings?
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post #2 of 28 Old 05-17-2013, 08:50 AM
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Deep color has nothing to do with it as far as I understand it. It says it has support for an expanded gamut. If you have a setting for that gamut in your display, or if you make a calibration for that purpose, you would benefit with more saturated colors. I guess the movie most come with different options in the menu or several discs, because if you select the xvYCC gamut on the disc but have a normal Rec.709 calibrated display (which most have) all colors would get undersaturated and dull.
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post #3 of 28 Old 05-17-2013, 10:21 AM
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thanks for the info on the color. I'm anxious to see how this looks later tonight.

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post #4 of 28 Old 05-17-2013, 10:27 AM
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xvYCC defines an expanded gamut for the source material, but not as wide a gamut as defined in the ITU standard (rec 2020) for 4K Ultra-HD (see pic below for rec. 709 compared to xvYCC gamut). Also xvYCC defines how this expanded gumut is remapped down to the smaller gamut range of ITU Rec. 709, the HD standard. The Blu-ray standard does not include any specific support for xvYCC so your typical Blu-ray player will not automatically remap the gamut into the wider range of the original xvYCC source. Thus, for the projector you would need to create a custom calibration with expanded gamut that would effectively take the incoming rec 709 gamut from the blu-ray player and expand it to that defined for xvYCC and do so without making the steps in saturation levels non-linear. I don't know if any of the calibration tools have provisions for this.

The more ideal situation would be to have a blu-ray player that would correctly do the remapping/conversion to xvYCC and indicate to the display/projector in the HDMI header that xvYCC color space is in use (this is allowed in the current HDMI standard) and then have a projector that has built-in support for xvYCC color space and automatically apply that colorspace when it sees, from the HDMI info, that it is being used by the source. The PS3 does offer support for xvYCC, but this option, at least in the past, couldn't be turned on for Blu-ray playback. However, it's possible that a more recent PS3 firmware update has made this available for blu-ray playback (but I haven't seen any info to indicated if Sony has made such a change, or not).. I know some Samsung flat panel HDTVs support xvYCC inputs but I don't know which brands/models of projectors support this. I haven't seen anything in the owner's manual for my JVC RS40 about xvYCC.

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post #5 of 28 Old 05-17-2013, 10:51 AM
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All initial reports say that the "expanded color" option is not standard xvYCC. It's a proprietary Sony format that only works properly if the disc is played in a specially-equipped Sony Blu-ray player connected to a Sony 4k display. Enabling the xvYCC options on other Blu-ray players or displays will result in washed out colors.

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post #6 of 28 Old 05-17-2013, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

All initial reports say that the "expanded color" option is not standard xvYCC. It's a proprietary Sony format that only works properly if the disc is played in a specially-equipped Sony Blu-ray player connected to a Sony 4k display. Enabling the xvYCC options on other Blu-ray players or displays will result in washed out colors.

Interesting, thanks for the info. Guess that means most of us are out as far as whatever real world benefit this would bring if any.


Only disc I was interested in out of this initial batch of Superbit blus' was Total Recall, but after learning that they did not include the 12 minute longer extended edition (only the theatrical version is included on the Superbit disc) I decided to pass. Hope the next batch brings something I might want to buy, but until then I am curious to hear from projector owners who own the older original release of any of these Superbit blus and grab their Superbit counter part as well and do some A/B comparisons to see how much (or little) difference there really is. From the screens I have seen, I don't see much to get excited about (Ghostbusters looks to be the biggest upgrade, but its a new transfer from my understanding so it makes sense there would/could be a significant difference there), but it will be interesting to hear some more reports.

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post #7 of 28 Old 05-17-2013, 01:13 PM
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This is all very interesting info, and I always seem to use a PS3 for my Blu-Rays (which isn't handling it yet I don't think) I love my Panasonic Plasma and honestly don't think I would ever own a Sony brand HDTV. Which means the expanded color wouldn't be worth my while. frown.gif So I think most TV owners are in the same boat as projector owners.

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post #8 of 28 Old 05-17-2013, 02:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

All initial reports say that the "expanded color" option is not standard xvYCC. It's a proprietary Sony format that only works properly if the disc is played in a specially-equipped Sony Blu-ray player connected to a Sony 4k display. Enabling the xvYCC options on other Blu-ray players or displays will result in washed out colors.

It's my understanding that the 4k to bluray downscaling master matches the logarithmic scaling of the 1080p to 4k scaling in the 4k displays from Sony but I've not seen anything to say this applies to color processing. Maybe you've got the two mixed up? I can't say for certain it doesn't apply to color but I've not seem this mentioned anywhere.
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post #9 of 28 Old 05-17-2013, 03:16 PM
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Let's be honest... this is just an additional marketing tool for Sony to push their 4K display(s) since there is no content.

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post #10 of 28 Old 05-17-2013, 04:07 PM
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I have checked out four or five of the titles and so far I have been thrilled with them. They just look clean and clear. Ghostbusters, Spider-Man 2002 so far are standouts but Glory and new Spider-Man (Amazing) also look great. I have The Other Guys in right now and it is definitely better than the original release. Afterwards I am checking out Karate Kid and Total Recall. As you can tell I am impressed with these titles and hope they eventually start to release them as newer titles on their release days.

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post #11 of 28 Old 05-17-2013, 04:23 PM
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I would not put much into trust into these "Mastered from 4K". Might be more Sony make.believe than actually "High End".
Take the example of Total Recall.
Shot in 5K.
Edited in a 2K DI.
A lot of VFX/CGI in the movie. No CGI is renderd on any film to date in 4K.
Total Recall was not distributed in any 4K DCP version. All DCP is mastered in DCI-P3 colorspace.

Did they go back to the original 5K R3D RAW or DNx and re-rendered to 4K and up-converted the CGI to 4K? The closest you can come to a real 4K Master today. I doubt it.
Which means the "4K Master" is most probably an up-conversion from the 2K DCP. With some care the "4K Master" should be slightly better than up-converting from a BD to a 4K display "on the fly".
Same goes for Amazing Spiderman.

This "mastered in 4K" is more of a slight hype from Sony to push 4K displays. Should rather be seen as "at last they author BD in a proper way" than actually get too hung up in the "4K Master" label.

Doubt that new films will have very much of an improvement, unless the original BD was very badly done.
But older films that get a new scan for a 4K re-release could see much improvement.

When we know how often studios manage to make a mess of authoring BD, with new "improved" releases (where sometimes extended part of the movie is different, often better than the theatrical part), not to mention how very different a BD release can depending on where in the world it has been released, I wouldn't trust these "Mastered in 4K" before I saw comparison screen-captures between original release and new release. Those few comparison screen-captures that are posted from these "Mastered in 4K" are not conclusive, and look very identical.
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post #12 of 28 Old 05-18-2013, 12:47 AM - Thread Starter
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I've looked at the screen shots too and some show little difference, but some look night and day. What we need to think about is screen shots alone makes it hard to show the difference, even if the difference is quite substantial. Most of us who've seen it like eshift, most of us like the darbee darblet. Both show quite a substantial change but when you photograph them, they don't look very much different unless you zoom in close or crank it up to a higher level than you would use.

Screenshots are a great tool, and I love to see them, but it's moving pictures we are interested in so they'll never be able to give you a true replica of what we are watching. IMO if we judge these discs and don't buy them on Screenshots alone, then we could be missing out. I prefer to listen to people who have bought and compared them.
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post #13 of 28 Old 05-18-2013, 06:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soupdragon View Post

I've looked at the screen shots too and some show little difference, but some look night and day. What we need to think about is screen shots alone makes it hard to show the difference, even if the difference is quite substantial. Most of us who've seen it like eshift, most of us like the darbee darblet. Both show quite a substantial change but when you photograph them, they don't look very much different unless you zoom in close or crank it up to a higher level than you would use.

Screenshots are a great tool, and I love to see them, but it's moving pictures we are interested in so they'll never be able to give you a true replica of what we are watching. IMO if we judge these discs and don't buy them on Screenshots alone, then we could be missing out. I prefer to listen to people who have bought and compared them.

Which ones look night and day to you? The only ones I have seen that were a major difference so far is Ghostbusters which makes sense since its a new transfer from my reading. I can't imagine titles like Total Recall and Battle LA would show any significant real world difference as both already looked fantastic. My main motivation for wanting Total Recall before I found out that there was no extended cut was for the fixed audio, not the supposed better video which I suspect would not make hardly any difference on that title.

I am curious to hear more reports as well, but this is one time when I would prefer to see at least some screens to back up claims since I think we have to take into account the possibility of placebo as well. If there is a significant difference between the old and new Superbit versions and if Ghostbusters is any indication, screen shots could be of some use here. Anything with a new transfer makes sense it would look noticeably different, but again something like the titles I mention I can't imagine there being anything more than a negligible difference at best which is how I would describe most the screens I have seen of anything that has not had a major overhaul like Ghostbusters.

Prove me wrong though smile.gif. If someone can throw up some screens of one of the newer releases like TR or Battle LA which show significant differences vs the old releases that already look fantastic and which were not in need of a major overhaul like Ghostbusters, I am all eyes.

I also still have to question why the omission of the extended cut on Total Recall? Is seamless branching not possible for some reason? Is this going to be a trend with these Superbit blus'?

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post #14 of 28 Old 05-18-2013, 07:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

Which ones look night and day to you? The only ones I have seen that were a major difference so far is Ghostbusters which makes sense since its a new transfer from my reading. I can't imagine titles like Total Recall and Battle LA would show any significant real world difference as both already looked fantastic. My main motivation for wanting Total Recall before I found out that there was no extended cut was for the fixed audio, not the supposed better video which I suspect would not make hardly any difference on that title.

I am curious to hear more reports as well, but this is one time when I would prefer to see at least some screens to back up claims since I think we have to take into account the possibility of placebo as well. If there is a significant difference between the old and new Superbit versions and if Ghostbusters is any indication, screen shots could be of some use here. Anything with a new transfer makes sense it would look noticeably different, but again something like the titles I mention I can't imagine there being anything more than a negligible difference at best which is how I would describe most the screens I have seen of anything that has not had a major overhaul like Ghostbusters.

Prove me wrong though smile.gif. If someone can throw up some screens of one of the newer releases like TR or Battle LA which show significant differences vs the old releases that already look fantastic and which were not in need of a major overhaul like Ghostbusters, I am all eyes.

I also still have to question why the omission of the extended cut on Total Recall? Is seamless branching not possible for some reason? Is this going to be a trend with these Superbit blus'?

Yes it was Ghostbusters that looks night and day from the screen shots. The others just little bits of detail here and there along with better highlights. I go back to my darbee statement though. Screenshots of darbee on and off show subtle differences but in actual viewing, the effect is more profound than the screeshots would have you think. If these 4k masters Screenshots are like that then you can't really make your mind up until the disc is spinning in your player and your watching it on your home screen.

I'll get a few of these to test them out once available in the UK. I'm not expecting anything significant though and anyone who is will maybe feel underwhelmed. I subtle but welcome improvement is all I'm expecting. Would be even better if it's possible to view in improved color.
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post #15 of 28 Old 05-18-2013, 07:34 AM
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some 4K mastered Discs have already been reviewed in detail here: http://bluray.highdefdigest.com
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post #16 of 28 Old 05-18-2013, 07:47 AM
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http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Mastered_in_4K/Industry_Trends/High-Def_Retailing/4K/UHDTV/Ultra_HD/Mastered_in_4K_and_the_Road_to_Ultra_HD/11781

"Based on the discs we've covered so far, despite the flashy new branding, several of these movies appear to feature nearly identical transfers as their previous releases. 'Ghostbusters' and 'Spider-man,' however, have been given more apparent upgrades, and the results are certainly an improvement, though it's not really clear if these benefits are actually an outcome of the 4K mastering itself. For all intents and purposes, the improvements offered to their picture quality simply represent the type of transfers they should have received in their original Blu-ray releases."

"All things considered, this new "Mastered in 4K" branding appears to be little more than a marketing tool aimed at promoting Sony's new 4K TVs -- but the discs themselves are still high quality and technically offer the best video transfers available for the titles included. Few will likely see much (if any) difference on the more recent films, but those with 4K displays or large projector screens might find some value in the increased bitrates and supposed upscaling benefits."


I watched Ghostbusters and skimmed through Angels and Demons just to see the PQ since i'm not a fan of this movie. Ghostbusters was pretty good considering we're likely looking at the limitations of the original film stock. Some scenes looked great, others not so much. The decent transfer does point out the age of the special effects but still a classic, fun movie. Angels and Demon's looked very sharp overall but I haven't seen the original release.

They can call it 4K mastered or bring back the 'superbits' title, as long as the studios put some effort into making the BD's look as good as possible for this format, i'm ok with it.
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post #17 of 28 Old 05-18-2013, 08:07 AM
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I looked at some of Spiderman and Taxi Driver. Spiderman looked excellent, some added sharpness here and there, but overall it's a variable film in terms of sharpness. But overall it had a fantastically smooth yet detailed look.

Taxi Driver was the one I anticipated most and WOW does this disc look amazing. I've watched the first Blu-Ray release many times and the 4K master at least *gave me the impression* last night of constantly seeing a better image - more fine detail and clarity throughout, and just a generally solid and beautiful look. I consistently noted incredibly fine detail in people's clothing, for instance, that I'd never noticed before. However, I'll have to do some side by side with the previous release to know for sure if my impressions were correct.
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post #18 of 28 Old 05-18-2013, 09:09 AM
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Based on the screengrabs; Ghostbusters has the most obviouse improvement.
It is clear that the idiot that authored the firs BD relase of Ghostbusters cranked the contrast "to 11" and blew all the highlights.
Now it is re-released as "Mastered in 4K" where some more reasonable guy took the original scan and authored it without cranking the contrast to 11. Nothing more!
There are no sign that they rescanned the original negatives and restored the film from there.

So some clueless guy messed up first time around, and now it is rectified, and repacked as "Mastered in 4K".
Nothing else of quality is added.
Should we be grateful that the studio has taken our money for something that in its first BD release essentially was a defect product?

The rest of the "Mastered in 4K" movies (haven't seen Taxi Driver screengrabs but expect the new version also just rectify previous bad authoring) have subtle differences.
Amazing Spiderman has been slightly sharpened to remove what looks like some Gaussian Blur.
Karate Kid (2010) original has brightened shadows which has been reset on the new release.
The rest have so subtle differences that they really are only noticeable when one see the before and after side by side.

Don't fall for the "mastered in 4K". It is just re-releases authored the way it should have been done the first time around.

Gladiator was re-released in 2010 without anybody making any big announcement about it.
There the movie was rescanned in 4K and properly color graded. It was a big improvement, even if it could have been better. The inserted cuts of the extended version was better than the original Theatrical cuts.
It again showed that the Hollywood Studios take short-cuts in quality. Use incompetent people to author movies for BD. And basically don't give a damn about a movies legacy or what they release.

Here are a couple of Before&After screengrabs that where posted back in 2010 in the Gladiator thread that shows how great an improvement is possible if one are willing to go back and rescan a movie.




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post #19 of 28 Old 05-18-2013, 10:24 AM
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I'm not personally putting much stock in the "Mastered in 4K" per se. I'm just interested in whether the images are improved in any way - whatever the reason, be simply better mastering or whatever.
Until real 4K arrives I'm happy with any upgrade in image quality for my favorite films.
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post #20 of 28 Old 05-18-2013, 10:29 AM
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I have no dog in this fight and am uninterested in any of these titles. But I do understand why they might want to own the best copy of any of these err classics that they can presently get. One that corrects past mistakes and ones that often only subtle improvements. I do trust the Rod man's observations because he is using a very good projector and watches stuff like this.

My caution is that these are only a stop gap measure to be succeeded by mastered in 4HD rather than mastered from 4K or 4HD. But buying a few titles of the from stuff is relatively inexpensive and maintains the continual quest for improving things.

Is the improvement in anything you do worth it? That depends on you just like buying a 4K projector now, doing so after Cedia and new and cheaper 4K projectors come out. many will say still not worth it and they will argue why not upgrading to a 4K projector is the logical conclusion. in reality it depends on you and your financial situation. Its like anything else.

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post #21 of 28 Old 05-18-2013, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soupdragon View Post

Yes it was Ghostbusters that looks night and day from the screen shots. The others just little bits of detail here and there along with better highlights. I go back to my darbee statement though. Screenshots of darbee on and off show subtle differences but in actual viewing, the effect is more profound than the screeshots would have you think. If these 4k masters Screenshots are like that then you can't really make your mind up until the disc is spinning in your player and your watching it on your home screen.

I'll get a few of these to test them out once available in the UK. I'm not expecting anything significant though and anyone who is will maybe feel underwhelmed. I subtle but welcome improvement is all I'm expecting. Would be even better if it's possible to view in improved color.


Good point about the Darbee and I agree going off what I have seen of mine. I am sure I will grab a few of these at some point when they release something I want to buy.

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post #22 of 28 Old 05-19-2013, 09:41 PM
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Disappeared in Canada from amazon.ca. They were suppose to show up at FS and BB on the 23rd - but no listing. Maybe someone threatened to sue re False Advertising?

Follow up:
Some still listed on Amazon.ca - just won't come up when requesting Blu-ray 4K. Listing individual titles brings them up - but some listed as unavailable, and no ETA.
Ordered the Serengeti 4K Blu-ray, but it's not being issued until October this year.
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post #23 of 28 Old 12-02-2013, 05:40 PM
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Just watched the "Mastered in 4K" version of Total Recall on my Panasonic PT-AE2000 and it does look very, very good indeed. Clean, very sharp ( but without artificial edge enhancement), deep, deep blacks and far better than any other live action, as opposed to animated, Blu-Ray I've seen to date. (My previous favourite was MIB 3)
It is not in 4k, but until that becomes a reality, it is the best quality image from a disc you can get.
I can imagine on a tv, the improvement may not be so pronounced over the previous version, but blown up to 100" and beyond the difference is obvious.
They are, as has already been mentioned, the Superbits of the Blu-Ray era. Just as Superbit DVD was not HD, but the best DVD could be, Mastered in 4k is not ultraHD, but it is the best HD will ever be!

Plus, as they haven't caught on with the general public, they are selling CHEAP!

You'd be mad not to buy at least one of these titles if you strive for the best image you can get.
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post #24 of 28 Old 12-03-2013, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by oakleyspatz View Post

Just as Superbit DVD was not HD, but the best DVD could be,

I would disagree with that. Superbit DVDs were often sourced from sub-par, edge-enhanced transfers. While they were superior to the non-Superbit edition of the same title from the same studio, other DVDs from other studios exceeded the quality of Sony's Superbit line.

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post #25 of 28 Old 01-01-2014, 02:28 PM
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I have a Sony VW 95 and a oppo 93. If I use those titles, what would be the best colour settings in both. Not understand much of these colourspaces. Also, can I leave these the way rendered for those titles for orndinary Bd's?

I like my HT, wine and pretty girls. But...am I the only one
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post #26 of 28 Old 01-01-2014, 02:42 PM
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Using the xvYcc color space the calibration is exactly the same as BT709. One needs a Bliuray player that will output xvYcc and a projector that will also display it and a source disc that is encoded in it.

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post #27 of 28 Old 01-01-2014, 04:19 PM
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Using the xvYcc color space the calibration is exactly the same as BT709. One needs a Bliuray player that will output xvYcc and a projector that will also display it and a source disc that is encoded in it.

ok on my sony projector this means Xv colour on. But what outpot setting is the best for the Oppo, there are so many! And should I leave this on for non xvYcc material?

I like my HT, wine and pretty girls. But...am I the only one
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post #28 of 28 Old 01-01-2014, 04:41 PM
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I don't own an Oppo so I don't know. I plan on getting the new to be announced at CES Sony bluray player which will have an xvycc that actually works.

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