Lens shift on the Sony HW50ES compared to the Epson 5020 and the Panny AE900??? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 8 Old 05-18-2013, 01:31 PM - Thread Starter
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I had a bad experience with the so called top notch customer service at Epson. I received a faulty 8700 when it first came out and my bulbs constantly burned out. After countless times telling me that it was the bulb and not the projector, now that my warranty is expired for 2 weeks, they no longer claim that it's the bulb. They claim that it's a bad projector and now that I'm past my warranty, I'm basically SOL! Anyway, after arguing all day on the phone, all I could do was get them to send me a refurbished 8700 which almost certainly will not work correctly after reading countless horror stories about there so called refurbished projectors.

Anyway, so my dilemma is that I have to get a new projector. After reading the reviews for the Panny 8000 and the Sony HW50ES, I'm wondering if either of these would work in my setup. I have a problem room where my projector must be placed to the side and about 10 feet away from my 96 inch screen. I need a projector with substantial vertical lens shift and about 25% horizontal. The Epson 8700 and my old Sanyo Z4 did a good job with the lens shift but I was pushing the limits of both of those units. I've read lots of reviews on these projectors and none get into how much lens shift can be used when setting up this projector. I assume the Panny is similar to the Epson as it was with older models that I read about when I bought my last projector. I'm very intrigued by the Sony though. The reviews are stellar, and I'd possibly be interested in spending the extra money to get better quality 3D but I'm afraid it's not going to work in my setup. Can anyone give me some advice on the lens shift on either the Panny or the Sony? I'm hoping the Sony's lens shift is comparable to the Epson's 5020 which I was going to buy before my dealings with Epson's CS.
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post #2 of 8 Old 05-18-2013, 01:36 PM
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Sony cannot do it, Panny should, but I'd need the exact distances to know. The horizontal shift decreases as you use the vertical shift. So one projector that states 25% horizontal is not the same as another that states 25% horizontal, unless both also have the same vertical.

The horizontal shift / vertical shift combo can generally be thought of like a circle, as you move the v-shift up, if you move h-shift too, you're going to hit the edges of the circle faster.


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post #3 of 8 Old 05-18-2013, 08:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks. I was afraid of that. I'd hate to go back to Epson after this ordeal. I just have a bad taste in my mouth.
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post #4 of 8 Old 05-18-2013, 10:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

Sony cannot do it, Panny should, but I'd need the exact distances to know. The horizontal shift decreases as you use the vertical shift. So one projector that states 25% horizontal is not the same as another that states 25% horizontal, unless both also have the same vertical.

The horizontal shift / vertical shift combo can generally be thought of like a circle, as you move the v-shift up, if you move h-shift too, you're going to hit the edges of the circle faster.

But its actually even worse because the image is a rectangle rather than a square or a circle within a circle. The width of the rectangle is 1.78 times its height.
So small amounts of horizontal shift rapidle bring the corner or the rectangles to the interior of the lens in the direction of the shift Unless the lense is huge, vertical lens shift will be quickly eaten up. Ita all bad becuae the center of the lens is its optical sweet spot the perimeter are tends to be less sharp and has more geometric distortion. A good manufacture will limit lens shift even though its lens coud physically allow more shift to protect yourself from yourself. Lens shift works best optically at long throws where the image exit size is small compared to the area of the lens.

As to Epson. Sue them for breach of warranty. You should easily win. You notified them of the defect within the warranty period and they misdiagnosed the problem either inadvertently or deliberately. It doesn't matter. They are obligated to do the repair under warranty provided you complied with the terms of the warranty. They will be required to pay all court costs and because they refused to honor their obligations under the warranty contact the court will likely award attorney fees as well. It would be idiotic for E[son to try and defend its refusal and they will quickly settle.

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post #5 of 8 Old 05-19-2013, 01:32 AM - Thread Starter
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You might be right but like probably 99% of people, it would be more trouble than its worth.I ddon't have the time or money to lay out with attorneys and civil courts. I might continue to raise a stink. I even told them that they could keep there refurbished PJ and just sell me a new 5020 at a discounted price. Hey couldn't even do that. I figured I'd send the 8700 in for repair and use it as a backup. Right now I'm going to get a new lamp for my old Sanyo Z4. That unit worked flawlessly for 6 years and was still working great when I upgraded to the 8700. It just needs a new bulb. I just have to figure out what projector its going to be backing up. I don't have much faith that the refurbished 8700 coming to me soon is going to work properly.
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post #6 of 8 Old 05-19-2013, 02:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Buts its actually even worse because the image is a rectangle rather than a square or a circle within a circle.

Was speaking of bounding limitations, not the image itself. The bounding limitation (the area the lens shift can be moved within) can be represented by a circle or ellipse (or multi-shaped object based on polygons), but not a rectangle.

This is also why they often diagram it as such in a manual. This means the amount you can move lens shift in relation to the maximum with no h-shift from center versus the maximum v-shift you can use while the maximum h-shift is in-use (the y limitation against the x bounding limit). Based on the reference data points, a bounding shape can then be drawn which contains within it the possibilities of all shifting points (all v-shift and h-shift combos). It's based on bounding geometry. Bounding geometry is often rendered with averaged data-sets to simplify processing of the points, hence it's usually just a very close approximation (but when I say very close, I mean VERY close). We use bounding geometry to overcome limitations in processing what would otherwise be a nearly infinite data-set of partially non-precise points. You can also create a more complex polygonal shape with more small angles to correct for error (100-sided hectagon based on polygons as an extreme example), but it's not often done due to the processing power required.

It can be enclosed with an ellipse or circle due to the circumscribed polygonal barriers with a limited amount of error zone (and sometimes reconstructed cyclically to exact precision and accuracy).

...


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post #7 of 8 Old 05-19-2013, 08:06 AM
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Coderguy. Are you talking to me or someone else? I was talking to the thread originator so that he would understand that there is much less horizontal shift available than vertical shift because of the RECTANGULAR shape of the image going through the lens. I wanted to make it clear that it wasn't an either or and that use in one direction will limit the available shift in the other direction. And that lens shift does cause image deterioration as the sweet spot of the lens is left behind.

Anyhow, Coderguy thanks for the great discussion of how if you move a rectangle around in a circle and plotting a curve of the inner circumference points the rectile's corners would hit you don't get a rectangle. Do you really think I said that or thought that? But anyhow, your efforts were well intended although rather a complete waste of you time at least with respect to me.

I am tempted to write a dissertation on the actual shape of the intersection points but I know you know what it is, that it is not an ellipse but nowhere near as complicated as you get into, at least if zoom is held constant, it being two sets of opposite lines with one set being longer than the other and connected by a simple curve that is simply four equal length arcs of the lens circumference

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post #8 of 8 Old 05-19-2013, 10:35 AM
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I didn't think you thought that, the post just sounded confusing. My post was not a dig, it was just in the interests of posting something in a way I understand it.

I was talking about how to represent it visually but also how the projector software deals with it. The quick way is to just draw it out.

If I were building lens memory though, I'd definitely use bounding areas, because you can create multiple bounding intersect patterns,one to represent the expected range, and others to represent the tested error range. You can then create a calibration program so that the lens memory could be more precisely calibrated, and we wouldn't presumably have these wonky lens memory issues.

I wouldn't expect that most people think of it backwards like I do (because that's what I do all day). It is not perfect though, if it were we would not have these issues with lens memory (presumably that is more motor control issues, but some of it could be software bugs, or rather the software's inability to est corrective motor error across the variable range or bounding limitations).


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Web Calculator v023 & v025
- Quick Peak at the new upcoming calculator
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