Double stack test active 3D with Sony HW50/HW30 - finally BRIGHT 3D! - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 21 Old 06-01-2013, 03:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi,

just want to share the experience from an experiment I made last night as I'm quite amazed...

I'm a huge 3D fan (when it's done right), however the problem we have with our projectors is that we have a reduction in brightness of about 80% with active glasses (or even more sometimes). Eventhough I have not the biggest screen (93 inch, 1.1 gain), the 3D always was just ok, but far away from the brightness in 2D. (in public cinemas it's even worse, so I can understand people who don't like 3D in a way)

So, luckily I have a Sony HW50 and a Sony HW30 at the same time currently. They both are already quite bright and good 3D projectors with high contrast and good colors, however a little bit of crosstalk in diffcult scenes, but for a SXRD quite good.

So, I decided to make an experiment and to set them up in a double stack active 3D configuration. The problem there is usually to have a good congruence of the overlapping pictures. However, as the lenses of those projectors are quite good (not as good as the JVC, but still), after some careful trying I ended up with a quite good congruence. I only lost a little bit of sharpness, which I compensated with a little 'super-resolution' on my Sony Blu-Ray player. The result in 3D however was outstanding! This was the first time I had the feeling that 3D was really bright as it should be. Some test scenes in certain movies even showed some details which I was never aware before, just because of the high brightness. When the sun was shining in a movie, for the first time it looked like it should and not dim at all. It was so bright, I even could sacrifies some of the brightness to even more reduce crosstalk (with my Monster-vision glasses). I did some calculations: The HW50 has about 1700 lumen in brightest mode and the HW30 about 1300 lumen. Which makes a nice 3000 lumen. If we assume a brightness drop of 80% in 3D, there are still about 600 lumen left behind the glasses which gives me about 25 foot-lamberts:-) Ok, maybe even a bit overkill, but I really like it. Unfortunately I cannot go with a bigger screen at the moment, but it seems to me that such a configuration would be ideal for all people with really big screens who don't want to sacrifies brightness in 3D. Apart from the relatively high costs it seems a good option for me.
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post #2 of 21 Old 06-01-2013, 01:24 PM
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interesting. The issue I thought you'd encounter would be a difference in video frame latency. Perhaps the latency on the projectors is exactly the same or they're using the same video processor. Either way, glad you've found a good solution. I'm surprised we haven't seen more dual output projectors yet to be honest.
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post #3 of 21 Old 06-01-2013, 10:18 PM
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If you are going to stack projectors anyway, you should really go with passive 3D. It gives such a natural feel with virtually no cross-talk, you really have to experience it. There is a 3D thread in this section where you can read all about it and the many techniques. The Omega system is probably the easiest to get into since there is no special screen required. The polarizing systems can be really good too when done right.
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post #4 of 21 Old 06-02-2013, 03:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ondaedg View Post

interesting. The issue I thought you'd encounter would be a difference in video frame latency. Perhaps the latency on the projectors is exactly the same or they're using the same video processor. Either way, glad you've found a good solution. I'm surprised we haven't seen more dual output projectors yet to be honest.

This was my concern as well, but it seems that there is no difference here (at least not noticable). I checked different scenes with fast movements, and I could not see any difference (without frame interpolation as I never use it). I just googled and I red somewhere in this forum that both have an input lag of 30 ms, so I would confirm at least that they are both equal.
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post #5 of 21 Old 06-02-2013, 03:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by 3dmaven View Post

If you are going to stack projectors anyway, you should really go with passive 3D. It gives such a natural feel with virtually no cross-talk, you really have to experience it. There is a 3D thread in this section where you can read all about it and the many techniques. The Omega system is probably the easiest to get into since there is no special screen required. The polarizing systems can be really good too when done right.

The Omega system sounds interesting to me (I don't want a silver screen). I was not aware of this system. I only know that there is this 'Infitec' system. So, this probably works the same way?
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post #6 of 21 Old 06-02-2013, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Mustang84 View Post

The Omega system sounds interesting to me (I don't want a silver screen). I was not aware of this system. I only know that there is this 'Infitec' system. So, this probably works the same way?
Yeah it is very similar. I use at at home and have had great luck with it. I bought like 25 glasses and have all the neighborhood kids over on the weekends to watch stuff.
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post #7 of 21 Old 06-02-2013, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by 3dmaven View Post

Yeah it is very similar. I use at at home and have had great luck with it. I bought like 25 glasses and have all the neighborhood kids over on the weekends to watch stuff.

Haha, for some reason this image keeps popping up in my head:

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post #8 of 21 Old 07-23-2013, 11:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Found the report to a very similar experiment here:

http://www.cine4home.de/installationen/JVC-3D-Stack/JVC_X35_3D-Stack.htm

Btw, having finally upgraded from 93 inch to 107 inch... I'm just amazed now by both - the size and the brightness:D Unfortunately this is my absolute max. I cannot go bigger anymore. I would really recommend this to any 3D enthusiast to give it a try. Requirements of the projectors for proper alignment are good optics and lens shift of course.
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post #9 of 21 Old 07-26-2013, 11:30 PM
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right, Requirements of the projectors for proper alignment are good optics and lens shift of course.msAq
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post #10 of 21 Old 07-28-2013, 07:00 PM
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very interesting findings, I had always wanted to try this with a couple of Epson projectors to see if it would work (assuming there wouldn't be to much misalignment with 6 separate LCD panels), but figured it wouldn't since I hadn't read anyone trying this before. I might just have to try this then. I suppose a couple Epson 5020s would give me 4800 max lumens, that should be plenty for any size screen, LOL. What was your exact setup? Did you use a blu ray player and how did you output two separate signals to each projector? Any other updates on how it has worked for you?
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post #11 of 21 Old 07-29-2013, 01:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustang84 View Post

The Omega system sounds interesting to me (I don't want a silver screen). I was not aware of this system. I only know that there is this 'Infitec' system. So, this probably works the same way?
The Infitec system does also not require a silverscreen. Infitec is located in Germany and I had contact with them a few weeks ago. At this moment they are working on a specific solution for a JVC dual stack. They will release a new package for this within a few months from now (from what they told me). However, I do think a passive dual stack HW50 setup will be better than a JVC dual stack solution because you get more brightness with a HW50 dual stack and still have a very decent contrast and well implemented FI.
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post #12 of 21 Old 07-29-2013, 03:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by d james View Post

very interesting findings, I had always wanted to try this with a couple of Epson projectors to see if it would work (assuming there wouldn't be to much misalignment with 6 separate LCD panels), but figured it wouldn't since I hadn't read anyone trying this before. I might just have to try this then. I suppose a couple Epson 5020s would give me 4800 max lumens, that should be plenty for any size screen, LOL. What was your exact setup? Did you use a blu ray player and how did you output two separate signals to each projector? Any other updates on how it has worked for you?

In my setup, I have a Blu-Ray player connected to an AV-Receiver (Denon AVR 3312), which has 2 HDMI outputs. I just connected the HW50 and the HW30 at those 2 outputs and made sure that the AV Receiver is in parallel output mode. Then I set the image mode in both projectors to 'Game' in order to avoid any unnecessary and maybe different post-processing of the signal. Also disabled any postprocessing like Reality creation in the HW50 which could introduce a different lag time. Like this is workes very well. The only disadvantage is that I still cannot get an a 100% perfect alignment (There is always a maybe 0.5 pixel misalignment in the periphery somewhere when I have a perfect alignment in the center) (still very good) which makes the picture a little bit softer compared to a single projctor solution. Of course the perceived sharpness also depends on the seating distance. I can compensate this with 'Superresolution' in the Blu-Ray player but I would like to have more native sharpness. The 'problem' is that with my Benq W7000 I have a very strong competitor, which has an exceptional good native sharpness. Even a single HW50 cannot compete with that. I read here that the HW50 does not reproduce the 1080p signal 1:1 in 3D mode, which could be the reason for the slightly softer image even in a single projector setup (when you turn off Reality Creation):

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/sony-vpl-hw50es-review-201212042380.htm?page=Picture%20Quality

In my search for the perfect 3D solution with my current projectors I'm still in a dilemma between the Benq W7000 and the HW50/HW30 setup.

Benq W7000:
+Sharpness
+Flicker free (60Hz shutter speed per eye)
+ghosting free
+Frame Interpolation in slow to medium camera movements (I use the setting 'Low' which makes 30 fps out of the original 24 fps in a movie)
-Brightness could be a little more on my 106 inch screen
-Frame interpolation produces some artifacts in fast camera movements (especially in real life movies like Avatar and The avengers)
-Colors in native lamp mode (even with some color tuning) which I use for acceptable brightness (2000 lumen)
-Contrast in dark scenes, but still not as bad as many say

HW50/HW30
+++Exceptionally bright!!! (3000 Lumen)
+Movement in fast action scenes, without frame interpolation (very natural, without artifacts)
+Contrast in dark scenes
+Black floor (but with the two projectors it's not as good as with a single HW50)
+Colors (even in Native lamp mode which I use for more brightness, the colors are much better than the native lamp mode with the W7000)
-Sharpness
-Flicker in bright scenes due to 48 Hz shutter speed per eye
-24Hz Slow to medium camera movement produces some flicker
-Some ghosting in diffcult scenes

So, all in all, I would rate the Benq still better in movies which have a strong 3D effect (chances of ghosting is much higher there), like all IMAX 3D movies and animation movies. However, in certain action real life movies scenes, where color reproduction, a believable brightness (sun light scenes) and artifact free movements in fast action scenes is important, the HW50/HW30 is hard to beat. However, for example in 'Hugo' I still like the Benq W7000 more because this movie is prone to ghosting. I have to do some more tests:D Lol, I think I watched every of my 3D movies now 1000 times...
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post #13 of 21 Old 07-29-2013, 06:17 PM
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wow thanks for the update, Sounds like your definitely getting your moneys worth of the 3d movies smile.gif Im going to look into this type of setup as it seems to be the only solution that I think I will like. Sure there are other ways around it, but this one keeps all the brightness , plus fairly easy to setup. I don't think the softness is much to worry about, at least I don't think I would, when your immersed in the movie I don't think its a big issue.
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post #14 of 21 Old 07-30-2013, 01:08 AM
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@TS:
Why go for this ACTIVE dual-stack setup when you can go PASSIVE with this setup with the Omega filters and a Geobox G-501?? Passive has 1. no ghosting, 2. zero flicker (because it is passive and nothing is flickering) and much 3. more light output.
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post #15 of 21 Old 07-30-2013, 04:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sanderdvd View Post

@TS:
Why go for this ACTIVE dual-stack setup when you can go PASSIVE with this setup with the Omega filters and a Geobox G-501?? Passive has 1. no ghosting, 2. zero flicker (because it is passive and nothing is flickering) and much 3. more light output.

I agree that passive 3D would be the best. How expensive is this Geobox 501 and the glasses needed? I didn't find much information in the internet or even a store to order (I live in Switzerland).
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post #16 of 21 Old 07-30-2013, 05:06 AM
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take a look at this thread

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1280393/the-ultimate-3d-projection-system-a-practical-discussion-thread/2160#post_23576564

I have a omega filters and you do loose some light output and you will have to do color correction but zero ghosting and not flicker and on another note you do not need a silver screen.
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post #17 of 21 Old 07-30-2013, 05:33 AM
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Originally Posted by space2001 View Post

take a look at this thread

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1280393/the-ultimate-3d-projection-system-a-practical-discussion-thread/2160#post_23576564

I have a omega filters and you do loose some light output and you will have to do color correction but zero ghosting and not flicker and on another note you do not need a silver screen.
And most important downside: the Omega system is supposed to be not that good with dual LCD/LCOS projectors (too much color difference).
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post #18 of 21 Old 07-30-2013, 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by sanderdvd View Post

And most important downside: the Omega system is supposed to be not that good with dual LCD/LCOS projectors (too much color difference).

I tried the system on 2 jvc x3 and Sony pro 5200 lumens projectors. Even with color correcting the system worked really well. no ghosting and just a smooth image.
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post #19 of 21 Old 07-30-2013, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by space2001 View Post

I tried the system on 2 jvc x3 and Sony pro 5200 lumens projectors. Even with color correcting the system worked really well. no ghosting and just a smooth image.
What you mean with 'even with color correcting'?
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post #20 of 21 Old 07-30-2013, 08:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanderdvd View Post

@TS:
Why go for this ACTIVE dual-stack setup when you can go PASSIVE with this setup with the Omega filters and a Geobox G-501?? Passive has 1. no ghosting, 2. zero flicker (because it is passive and nothing is flickering) and much 3. more light output.

Is a home passive system going to differ from my negative experience with passive in commercial cinemas? My main gripe is the polarized glasses. My brain tunes in on the different polarity in each lens. even minor reflections in the theater stand out as 1 eye sees it, but the other does not. There would have to be no obvious color shifts as well.

I've experimented with many different pairs of active shutter glasses, the best single projector combo i've tested is the Sharp 30K 3D DLP + Sharp G20 glasses. There's no crosstalk or flicker with this setup. A dual stack of 2 Sharp 30K's with an active setup would look great for those that need the lumen output. I use an HP screen, so 1 projector is fine for my setup.
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post #21 of 21 Old 07-30-2013, 08:34 AM
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What you mean with 'even with color correcting'?

Sorry what I meant was after color correcting.
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