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post #1 of 88 Old 06-12-2013, 11:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Which DLP projector under 5K has the best native contrast? (best black level)
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post #2 of 88 Old 06-12-2013, 12:08 PM
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A used Sharp XV-Z20000, Marantz VP-11S2 or a Runco LS-5, probably. Sharp XV-Z30000 has less native contrast than Z20000 but it has a dynamic iris.
The difference between best DLP's native contrast and more budget models are not as striking as between DLP and LCoS. Say, most DLPs have a native contrast under 2000:1. Best have under 10000:1. Is the difference striking? Seeing Z30000, which has around 1500:1 native and 10000:1 with the DI, I believe not. Now 2000:1 vs. 30000:1 (lower end JVC model) is a striking difference. I was honestly like you, wanting a DLP and looking for a best contrast model. Until I bought Z30000 and realized there were more things to a projector than just one measure. A most important measure but nevertheless. Forgive me if I was reading you wrong.
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post #3 of 88 Old 06-12-2013, 12:43 PM
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why not d-ila or lcos?

i'd think both would have better native contrast
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post #4 of 88 Old 06-12-2013, 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

why not d-ila or lcos?

i'd think both would have better native contrast

The only thing LCOS has over single chip DLP is native on/off contrast numbers. DLP is better in all other regards. Motion, ANSI contrast, brightness uniformity, sharpness, and 3D are all better on a DLP based system when implemented properly.

The Sharp has a slightly lower black floor over the LS-5, but on/off contrast is higher on the Runco due to the fact that it doesn't use a fixed iris and dynamically removes the iris during brighter content. The Sharp has a nicer lens and is a little bit sharper in appearance. Regardless, these two projectors have the nicest pictures I've ever seen. A definite step up in overall picture quality over the three JVCs I've owned. Please check my signature, as I have both for sale. The Planar PD8150 is the LS-5 before they rebranded it under the Runco name.
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post #5 of 88 Old 06-12-2013, 09:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

The only thing LCOS has over single chip DLP is native on/off contrast numbers. DLP is better in all other regards. Motion, ANSI contrast, brightness uniformity, sharpness, and 3D are all better on a DLP based system when implemented properly.

The Sharp has a slightly lower black floor over the LS-5, but on/off contrast is higher on the Runco due to the fact that it doesn't use a fixed iris and dynamically removes the iris during brighter content. The Sharp has a nicer lens and is a little bit sharper in appearance. Regardless, these two projectors have the nicest pictures I've ever seen. A definite step up in overall picture quality over the three JVCs I've owned. Please check my signature, as I have both for sale. The Planar PD8150 is the LS-5 before they rebranded it under the Runco name.

ok, but he was asking for the best contrast, so... thought i'd ask.

i recently experienced the jvc d-ila and i don't think i'll ever go back to dlp or lcd
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post #6 of 88 Old 06-12-2013, 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

ok, but he was asking for the best contrast, so... thought i'd ask.

i recently experienced the jvc d-ila and i don't think i'll ever go back to dlp or lcd

He asked which DLP projector had the best contrast and black level. I've owned three JVC models (RS10, RS20, and an X3 aka RS40). None of these have the picture quality that the Planar PD8150 or Sharp XV-Z20000 has.
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post #7 of 88 Old 06-12-2013, 09:40 PM
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I've owned and reviewed the Planar and I've viewed the Sharp and Samsung in controlled conditions and none of them compare to the recent JVCs I've owned. Motion was a bit better than the older JVCs but if I truly thought they delivered better or even the same quality of picture I'd have one. The Planar was a fantastic projector and is still one of the best DLPs I've seen but my current JVC trounces it in just about every way.

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post #8 of 88 Old 06-12-2013, 09:45 PM
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To each their own. There is just something about DLP that looks amazing to me. The JVCs just don't do it for me. I think they look good, don't get me wrong, but I like DLP that much better. I always thought that if companies like Runco, Sim2, and Digital Projection really thought LCOS was the best thing out there, they'd be buying SXRD or D-ILA panels instead of buying DMDs from TI to create projectors around. I'm sure they've done side-by-side showings to customers and when paired up against their projectors people are still choosing the DLP projector in the end, otherwise they'd have switched over the LCOS by now if they thought LCOS would outsell their DLPs.
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post #9 of 88 Old 06-12-2013, 09:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

He asked which DLP projector had the best contrast and black level. I've owned three JVC models (RS10, RS20, and an X3 aka RS40). None of these have the picture quality that the Planar PD8150 or Sharp XV-Z20000 has.

so we both had reason for our comments.

maybe he wanted dlp because of it's benefits. maybe he wanted best blacks and assumed he couldn't get that with anything else.

hopefully i'm not wasting his time. but i'd hate for him to not consider lcos at all and end up with something he's not happy with.
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post #10 of 88 Old 06-12-2013, 09:47 PM
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Originally Posted by sanderdvd View Post


What I m looking for is good 3D (I hate the headaches that my JVC X35 gives me and the terrible flicker and ghosting). Only thing I do not want to lose is picture quality in 2D. WIth this I mean that I want a decent native contrast (so good black level). Also, fan sound is important for me. For example, the Benq W1070 is way too loud for me, let alone 2x a W1070!

Can you recommend me a projector looking at my wishes?

Is this comment in the other thread related to this question?

Can you run a dual projector setup? if you're looking for a single DLP projector for 2D and 3D under 5K, you're not going to find one that matches the JVC in 2D. I use the Sharp 30K for HDTV and 3D and the RS55 for 2D bluray.

The contrast / black level is noticeably better on the Sharp 30K than the BQ W7000 and 1070. I'd say it's not far off from the HW30 which I believe you've seen before. It would not however, be mistaken for your X35. smile.gif
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post #11 of 88 Old 06-12-2013, 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

To each their own. There is just something about DLP that looks amazing to me. The JVCs just don't do it for me. I think they look good, don't get me wrong, but I like DLP that much better. I always thought that if companies like Runco, Sim2, and Digital Projection really thought LCOS was the best thing out there, they'd be buying SXRD or D-ILA panels instead of buying DMDs from TI to create projectors around. I'm sure they've done side-by-side showings to customers and when paired up against their projectors people are still choosing the DLP projector in the end, otherwise they'd have switched over the LCOS by now if thought LCOS would outsell their DLPs.

it's usually about the money. they probably get a better picture for the same amount of money spent on production and R&D with the DLP's, or equal quality picture for less money, depending on how you want to look at it. then again, the same argument could be made for any manufacturer. if there was one universally better technology they'd all be using it. so there must be some pros and cons to each

i think what i like most about my new jvc was how 'un-digital' it looks. which might be exactly the reason others don't like it. it seems softer to me. even compared to the 720p lcd Epson i had before. the Epson looked 'sharper', it's just that it wasn't as detailed, and it was 'sharply' showing it's pixels instead of the image, haha.
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post #12 of 88 Old 06-12-2013, 09:53 PM
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I agree with Zombie. You're aren't going to find a new DLP projector under $5000 that can beat the 2D performance of a JVC. If you want high performing DLP you need to spend more or buy something used/refurbished.
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post #13 of 88 Old 06-12-2013, 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

The only thing LCOS has over single chip DLP is native on/off contrast numbers.
+ Pixel fill ratio?
+ Greyscale? (Absence of dithering?)
+ Color saturation and luminance?
+ No RBE?
+ Less noisy in general?
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post #14 of 88 Old 06-12-2013, 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Elix View Post

+ Pixel fill ratio?
+ Greyscale? (Absence of dithering?)
+ Color saturation and luminance?

Pixel fill is only 5% different between DLP and LCOs. My Planar PD8150 uses UniShape lamp technology to get rid of dithering. Most high end DLP's have technologies in place to get rid of dithering issues in dark scenes. In fact, the JVC DLA-RS40 had a horrible dithering issue. It's not always DLP that has that issue. Where have you read that all DLP based projectors have color saturation and luminance issues? I would imagine that that's on a projector-by-projector basis and not an issue with an entire display type.
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post #15 of 88 Old 06-12-2013, 11:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

Where have you read that all DLP based projectors have color saturation and luminance issues? I would imagine that that's on a projector-by-projector basis and not an issue with an entire display type.
I agree that it's not a problem for some models (mostly high-end) but a whole lot of single-chip DLPs suffer from this. Even some of the models that possess 'pure' RGBRGB color wheel suffer from this problem. You may read on it here: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1451895/epson-color-light-output-demo-at-ces-2013
So you're saying there're single chip DLPs that have no visible dithering? It's like saying there're plasmas without dithering. I find it hard to believe.
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post #16 of 88 Old 06-13-2013, 12:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Elix View Post

I agree that it's not a problem for some models (mostly high-end) but a whole lot of single-chip DLPs suffer from this. Even some of the models that possess 'pure' RGBRGB color wheel suffer from this problem. You may read on it here: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1451895/epson-color-light-output-demo-at-ces-2013
So you're saying there're single chip DLPs that have no visible dithering? It's like saying there're plasmas without dithering. I find it hard to believe.

I swear to you there is no visible dithering on the Planar PD8150 or on any of the Marantz projectors I had (11S1 and 15S1). I haven't taken a close look at the Sharp 20k, but I'd make wager to say the same thing about it. There was some on the Mitsubishi HC7800D and the JVC DLA-X3 was far worse than the Mitsubishi.
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post #17 of 88 Old 06-13-2013, 12:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

I swear to you there is no visible dithering on the Planar PD8150
That's quite an accomplishment then. I'm curious to see it with my own eyes. Maybe I'll re-visit DLPs in several years when it's time to upgrade. Though it's unlikely I'll be able to part with high native contrast of LCoS.
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post #18 of 88 Old 06-13-2013, 06:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

To each their own. There is just something about DLP that looks amazing to me. The JVCs just don't do it for me. I think they look good, don't get me wrong, but I like DLP that much better. I always thought that if companies like Runco, Sim2, and Digital Projection really thought LCOS was the best thing out there, they'd be buying SXRD or D-ILA panels instead of buying DMDs from TI to create projectors around. I'm sure they've done side-by-side showings to customers and when paired up against their projectors people are still choosing the DLP projector in the end, otherwise they'd have switched over the LCOS by now if they thought LCOS would outsell their DLPs.

LCOS projectors are much more complex to build and design than single chip DLP's unfortunately (not sure about 3 chip), even small MFR's can get projector kits for DLP's (even good ones) with everything layed out for them. It takes so much more resources and engineering to design a good LCOS projector than a DLP unfortunately. Now there was more design that went into those older DLP's, but there are key elements that are just simpler on a DLP to build. Epson tried to go into LCOS and failed, it's related to the complexity that exists. Sony and JVC have been doing it for years and years (way back with their old RPTV LCOS units and older projectors). That is why they are the only ones that really make competitive LCOS machines. LG got into this market briefly, but they couldn't get the contrast even as high as LCD projectors. Mitsubishi did it, but I have a feeling Sony was helping them (or some Asian company attached to Sony) the entire way through, and they used the Sony panels anyhow.


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post #19 of 88 Old 06-13-2013, 06:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

To each their own. There is just something about DLP that looks amazing to me. The JVCs just don't do it for me. I think they look good, don't get me wrong, but I like DLP that much better. I always thought that if companies like Runco, Sim2, and Digital Projection really thought LCOS was the best thing out there, they'd be buying SXRD or D-ILA panels instead of buying DMDs from TI to create projectors around. I'm sure they've done side-by-side showings to customers and when paired up against their projectors people are still choosing the DLP projector in the end, otherwise they'd have switched over the LCOS by now if they thought LCOS would outsell their DLPs.

I would second everything that Seegs said. It seems that, to some people like myself, the subjective difference is very obvious. I checked out all the latest models at CEDIA and the only one that really made me think about switching from DLP was the Sony VW1000

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post #20 of 88 Old 06-13-2013, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

I've owned and reviewed the Planar and I've viewed the Sharp and Samsung in controlled conditions and none of them compare to the recent JVCs I've owned. Motion was a bit better than the older JVCs but if I truly thought they delivered better or even the same quality of picture I'd have one. The Planar was a fantastic projector and is still one of the best DLPs I've seen but my current JVC trounces it in just about every way.

Do you have the X75/RS56 model? It's been a while since we've had a good LCOS vs. DLP debate.

My primary use for the RS55 is for 2D bluray. There's times I wish the black floor was even lower, anything less takes me out of the movie. Which DLP is going to satisfy those that have a preference for top shelf native contrast? I better start saving my loose change for a Sim2.
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post #21 of 88 Old 06-13-2013, 07:45 AM
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Funny to saving loose change for a SIM2, I need to check out all the soda machines you've visited.


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post #22 of 88 Old 06-13-2013, 02:04 PM
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Which DLP is going to satisfy those that have a preference for top shelf native contrast? I better start saving my loose change for a Sim2.

Pretty hard to beat the overall picture quality of a Sim Lumis, including the contrast. I'm secretly lusting after a new Super Lumis.



Sure, my Lumis has only been measured at 15,000:1 on / off ( I have a very short throw set up - long throw does 25 - 30K on / off ), but with 25 foot lamberts coming off the screen, and the overall picture quality of 3 chip DLP, start saving your change !! smile.gif

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post #23 of 88 Old 06-13-2013, 02:43 PM
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If the only concern is 2D black level than don't disregard the Infocus SP8602. I think it's better than the Sharp 30K.

If you're going to consider other factors, then that's a different story....................

It seems to me that baring some new DC4/5 chip, black level has reached it's limits with DLP. Heck the Sharp 20K is is a 6 year old PJ. It shouldn't even be in the same ballpark as newer models.
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post #24 of 88 Old 06-13-2013, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

Pretty hard to beat the overall picture quality of a Sim Lumis, including the contrast. I'm secretly lusting after a new Super Lumis.



Sure, my Lumis has only been measured at 15,000:1 on / off ( I have a very short throw set up - long throw does 25 - 30K on / off ), but with 25 foot lamberts coming off the screen, and the overall picture quality of 3 chip DLP, start saving your change !! smile.gif

I'm fairly certain if I had the 3D solo, I'd retire all the other projectors and leave the forum for a while. biggrin.gif

The 3D must be flawless with this projector and the 144hz sync.
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post #25 of 88 Old 06-13-2013, 07:36 PM
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I'm fairly certain if I had the 3D solo, I'd retire all the other projectors and leave the forum for a while.

The 3D must be flawless with this projector and the 144hz sync.

If I wasn't married, I would have jumped on one to replace my current Lumis Host when the SIM's were on sale late last year... smile.gif

Unfortunately, since I am married, if I had, I would have been jumped ( by my wife ).......eek.gif

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post #26 of 88 Old 06-13-2013, 07:38 PM
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What's the street on one of those Sim2's?

I need to know how much I gota save.

Retirement or a FPJ? biggrin.gif
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post #27 of 88 Old 06-14-2013, 01:38 AM
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If I wasn't married, I would have jumped on one to replace my current Lumis Host when the SIM's were on sale late last year... smile.gif

Unfortunately, since I am married, if I had, I would have been jumped ( by my wife ).......eek.gif

There is a very simple solution to your problem. biggrin.gif
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post #28 of 88 Old 06-14-2013, 01:42 AM
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Originally Posted by SauceXX View Post

If the only concern is 2D black level than don't disregard the Infocus SP8602. I think it's better than the Sharp 30K.

If you're going to consider other factors, then that's a different story....................

It seems to me that baring some new DC4/5 chip, black level has reached it's limits with DLP. Heck the Sharp 20K is is a 6 year old PJ. It shouldn't even be in the same ballpark as newer models.

The Sharp had the best static image a single chip DLP can offer. It rivals what the Marantz VP-11S2 looks like. It uses a fixed iris and gives the best black level I've seen any DLP projector give and some of the best contrast (on/off and ANSI) single chip DLP can give. Other than that, it has a GREAT lens, superb image processing for HD content, and offers color/greyscale/gamma calibration that would give any calibrator a hard-on. It's a fantastic projector.

The InFocus probably looks nice, but it uses a clunky DI, uses the smaller DLP DMD, and judging from the price point, the lens probably isn't as nice as the Sharp. I say this all the time, but age doesn't mean anything. Heck, some older 720p Marantz models give much higher picture quality than most projectors coming out today. Almost any 1080p DLP projector that came out around 2006 and 2007 will blow away anything under $5000 DLP that coming out today in regards to picture quality. These older projectors had a much larger manufacturing budget so they use vastly superior components and had enough money to put towards R&D to make a solid product from the ground up. These newer cheap-o DLP projectors perform and look at least one step down in over all picture quality. DLP projectors, as a whole, among other technology types, have been on a race to the bottom (in price) to sell more and more units. This is one of the reasons LCOS has literally no competition in the under $5000 market. The DLP products being put out today are garbage in comparison to those older models and this gives other technologies a chance to shine even though (in my option) DLP has the potential to impress people even more.
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post #29 of 88 Old 06-14-2013, 02:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

There is a very simple solution to your problem. biggrin.gif
To marry a projector? biggrin.gif
You live up to your signature, Seegs smile.gif
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post #30 of 88 Old 06-14-2013, 03:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Elix View Post

To marry a projector? biggrin.gif
You live up to your signature, Seegs smile.gif
That isn't quite what I had in mind, but I'm glad we're getting some more ideas.
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Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

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