SONY VPL-HW55ES : New SXRD Model from SONY IFA BERLIN 2013 - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 398 Old 08-01-2013, 07:03 PM
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i got my order in right now for the hw50, and if the 55 is $4k+ I don't think I would be interested unless they seriously changed something more than zoom lens and the outer shell compared to what price I have the hw50 ordered for. Other than the lens I'm not sure how big of a quality jump it would be over the 50 anyways to justify $4-5k over the hw50 this late in 1080p life cycle.

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post #62 of 398 Old 08-02-2013, 09:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

The overseas prices include VAT at about 18%. The weakest point of the 50 is its lens and a better lens (significantly better) would be worth the price difference along with the other things improved. And remember street will be cheaper than MSRP despite Sure pricing. You just have to be smart as to where you buy it.

For comparison purposes, does anyone know how much the retail and street prices are for the HW50 in Norway?

edit: just did some searching, and according to the site Kraine linked to the HW50 has the same price as the 55 in Norway. That doesn't really make much sense and lends to the idea that perhaps the price is purely speculative right now. Or, the HW55 would come at $4k MSRP and push the 50 down to $2999 with no glasses or extra bulb. But if that's the case then I don't see how the 55 could have the better lens.

Is it possible they switch to the 95 chassis but use the same lens as the 50? Why change the chassis at all then?

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post #63 of 398 Old 08-02-2013, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by baloo_btru View Post

Is it possible they switch to the 95 chassis but use the same lens as the 50? Why change the chassis at all then?
Probably to keep a similar price point as the 50, they just took the 95 chassis and used the 50 internals and lens. The chassis would've had to change most likely to accommodate the motors and such for the lens zoom and focus.

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post #64 of 398 Old 08-02-2013, 11:12 AM
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That makes a lot of sense. Thanks.

And if that price is accurate, then it seems almost positive this is an HW50 + motorized lens, but otherwise identical internals. In which case it makes no sense to wait, except to save maybe $200 or something (on the 50).

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post #65 of 398 Old 08-02-2013, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by baloo_btru View Post

That makes a lot of sense. Thanks.

And if that price is accurate, then it seems almost positive this is an HW50 + motorized lens, but otherwise identical internals. In which case it makes no sense to wait, except to save maybe $200 or something (on the 50).

From your post lately I can feel you are really torn between waiting or going for HW50 now, trust me you are not alone. Decision decision decision???????????

I am on the waiting list for HW50, we will see how it plays out.
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post #66 of 398 Old 08-02-2013, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by booga24 View Post

From your post lately I can feel you are really torn between waiting or going for HW50 now, trust me you are not alone. Decision decision decision???????????

I am on the waiting list for HW50, we will see how it plays out.

Yeah I'm in the same boat. My hw50 should be shipping next week. If the only difference is lens memory/motorized lens, then the HW50 is my choice (unless something crazy happens at CEDIA, which is doubtful). At this point I'm 90% sure I'm going with the HW50 because my room is ready and I don't think anything new is going to wow me so much. But since I ordered about four weeks ago, I have become a victim of analysis paralysis. If the projector was here already I wouldn't even think twice smile.gif I mean, worst case I can always sell the projector lol and get the next big thing.

Hell my tv is around 6 years old at this point and only recently have I had an urge to upgrade (probably from spending so much time on the forums lately). So I think once the 50 is in my hands or on my screen, it won't be an issue anymore. I'll have this projector until 4k pricing is down from the stratosphere and there is enough content to support it. So I'd like to make sure I buy one I'm satisfied with.

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post #67 of 398 Old 08-02-2013, 05:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baloo_btru View Post

. I'll have this projector until 4k pricing is down from the stratosphere and there is enough content to support it. So I'd like to make sure I buy one I'm satisfied with.

yup biggrin.gif

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post #68 of 398 Old 08-02-2013, 06:34 PM
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Am I the only one who didn't think the 95 lens was that great? I saw images if it and they didn't look all that different from the HW30/50, IMHO. I state this only because people are suggesting it would be an improvement to have the 95 lens in there...

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post #69 of 398 Old 08-02-2013, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by MadMyers View Post

Am I the only one who didn't think the 95 lens was that great? I saw images if it and they didn't look all that different from the HW30/50, IMHO. I state this only because people are suggesting it would be an improvement to have the 95 lens in there...

I went from a JVC (good lens) to the HW30 (let's call that a "fair" lens) to the 95ES (much better than the HW30, and close to the JVC). The 95ES is not a "great" lens in my opinion, but it's notably better than the 30.
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post #70 of 398 Old 08-03-2013, 12:57 AM
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Can't wait for 8/5 to come and see what HW55 trully is.

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post #71 of 398 Old 08-03-2013, 03:37 AM - Thread Starter
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You expect to see it in 2 days ?
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post #72 of 398 Old 08-05-2013, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by kraine View Post

You expect to see it in 2 days ?

Apparently not smile.gif

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post #73 of 398 Old 08-05-2013, 03:15 PM
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IFA starts 6 Sept. so any info will probably come out at a Sony press conf. or press release near the time IFA begins, unless Sony decides to hold the HW55ES back to introduce at CEDIA at their press conference there on 26 Sept. at 9am.

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post #74 of 398 Old 08-08-2013, 02:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Sony Press Conférence at IFA 2013 will start the 4th September.
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post #75 of 398 Old 08-14-2013, 12:16 AM
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Apparently not smile.gif

I posted that in the future. tongue.gif

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post #76 of 398 Old 08-14-2013, 06:39 AM
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I posted that in the future. tongue.gif
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post #77 of 398 Old 08-14-2013, 02:52 PM
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I took my HC3800 back to the mid-1950s yesterday. No one there was impressed with my menu displays.
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post #78 of 398 Old 08-16-2013, 12:36 PM
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What are the chances of the HW55ES being 480hz for reduced 3D flickering (like the Epson/Panasonic)? That's my biggest complaint right now with my HW30. The flickering is... intense by comparison to my PT-AE8000U.
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post #79 of 398 Old 08-17-2013, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by WilliamG View Post

What are the chances of the HW55ES being 480hz for reduced 3D flickering (like the Epson/Panasonic)? That's my biggest complaint right now with my HW30. The flickering is... intense by comparison to my PT-AE8000U.

I don't think the technology has a fast enough response to be ramped up anywhere close to 480 Hz. It shows ghosting at the current rate. The panels are just not able to transition that quickly.

So until they develop a new core technology, this is not likely.
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post #80 of 398 Old 08-17-2013, 01:48 PM
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I don't think the technology has a fast enough response to be ramped up anywhere close to 480 Hz. It shows ghosting at the current rate. The panels are just not able to transition that quickly.

So until they develop a new core technology, this is not likely.

Thank you for the response. I find it interesting that no projector out there currently, for any amount of money (it seems) will do both 3D and 2D equally well. Shame.

Well, at least it gives me something to look forward to in the future!
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post #81 of 398 Old 08-18-2013, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by WilliamG View Post

Thank you for the response. I find it interesting that no projector out there currently, for any amount of money (it seems) will do both 3D and 2D equally well. Shame.

Well, at least it gives me something to look forward to in the future!




I think the Sim2 Lumis 3D can do it ( after what I hear ) !? - and BTW. the 1000ES do not flicker in 3D mode - so it can be done without 480hz panels, but I dont know how they do it on the 1000.




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post #82 of 398 Old 08-18-2013, 02:59 PM
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I would agree that the Sim2 and the Sony will do both 2D and 3D excellently. Even between those two models there is a 2D vs 3D trade off. All things being equal screen size wise and gain, the Sim2 will project a much brighter picture in 3D. But the Sony is 4K in 2D and the Sim2 only 2K.

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post #83 of 398 Old 08-18-2013, 09:45 PM
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Originally Posted by d.j. View Post

I think the Sim2 Lumis 3D can do it ( after what I hear ) !? - and BTW. the 1000ES do not flicker in 3D mode - so it can be done without 480hz panels, but I dont know how they do it on the 1000.




dj

I'd be curious to see the 100ES not flicker in 3D. I know it's VERY person-to-person subjective. There are people in the HW30 thread swearing their 3D is flicker-free. Obviously they're not as sensitive to it as I am. The difference between the 240hz 30ES and the Panasonic PT-AE8000's 480hz in 3D is quite noticeable. So is the 100ES not flicker-y, or is that just a subjective thing to you specifically? I can't imagine it being too different if it uses the same 3D glasses as the 30ES.
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post #84 of 398 Old 08-19-2013, 08:17 AM
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Good point. I don't see it flickering but that doesn't really mean you wouldn't see any flickering either.

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post #85 of 398 Old 08-19-2013, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by WilliamG View Post

I'd be curious to see the 100ES not flicker in 3D. I know it's VERY person-to-person subjective. There are people in the HW30 thread swearing their 3D is flicker-free. Obviously they're not as sensitive to it as I am. The difference between the 240hz 30ES and the Panasonic PT-AE8000's 480hz in 3D is quite noticeable. So is the 100ES not flicker-y, or is that just a subjective thing to you specifically? I can't imagine it being too different if it uses the same 3D glasses as the 30ES.

Don't let the 120Hz vs. 240Hz vs. 480Hz specs fool you. In 3D mode your 30ES provides 60Hz (or fps) per eye for 30Hz and 60Hz video sources and only 48Hz per eye for 24Hz video sources (i.e., Blu-ray 3D). The JVC 120 Hz projectors do the same thing as do the Epson/Panasonic 480 Hz 3D projectors. What is different is the duty cycle of the displayed frame. For the Sony HW30 each eye sees a video frame displayed 25% of the time and 75% of the time is blanked out (i.e., black). For the Epson/Panasonic 480 Hz 3LCD projectors its about a 37% duty cycle. Ideally, for a 24Hz input signal a 3D projector would provide 72Hz or 96Hz per eye and there are a few of the newer DLP projectors that now provide 72 Hz per eye.

HERE is a link to a blog I did two years ago that includes a description of how the HW30es displays 3D (note that the description in that blog assumes a 30Hz or 60Hz input signal).

I would note that there might now be (or may be on next generation) some projectors that can display 24Hz input 3D video at 60Hz per eye when frame insertion (e.g., smooth motion) is turned on in 3D mode. I haven't checked this out, so I don't know if any current 3D projectors are doing this or not.


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post #86 of 398 Old 08-19-2013, 11:34 AM
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Don't let the 120Hz vs. 240Hz vs. 480Hz specs fool you. In 3D mode your 30ES provides 60Hz (or fps) per eye for 30Hz and 60Hz video sources and only 48Hz per eye for 24Hz video sources (i.e., Blu-ray 3D). The JVC 120 Hz projectors do the same thing as do the Epson/Panasonic 480 Hz 3D projectors. What is different is the duty cycle of the displayed frame. For the Sony HW30 each eye sees a video frame displayed 25% of the time and 75% of the time is blanked out (i.e., black). For the Epson/Panasonic 480 Hz 3LCD projectors its about a 37% duty cycle. Ideally, for a 24Hz input signal a 3D projector would provide 72Hz or 96Hz per eye and there are a few of the newer DLP projectors that now provide 72 Hz per eye.

HERE is a link to a blog I did two years ago that includes a description of how the HW30es displays 3D (note that the description in that blog assumes a 30Hz or 60Hz input signal).

I would note that there might now be (or may be on next generation) some projectors that can display 24Hz input 3D video at 60Hz per eye when frame insertion (e.g., smooth motion) is turned on in 3D mode. I haven't checked this out, so I don't know if any current 3D projectors are doing this or not.


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.

I agree. Really it comes down to the response time, and in response I mean image retention. How fast can the chip go from black to white. This is where ghosting becomes a huge issue in 3d.
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post #87 of 398 Old 08-19-2013, 09:29 PM
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Don't let the 120Hz vs. 240Hz vs. 480Hz specs fool you. In 3D mode your 30ES provides 60Hz (or fps) per eye for 30Hz and 60Hz video sources and only 48Hz per eye for 24Hz video sources (i.e., Blu-ray 3D). The JVC 120 Hz projectors do the same thing as do the Epson/Panasonic 480 Hz 3D projectors. What is different is the duty cycle of the displayed frame. For the Sony HW30 each eye sees a video frame displayed 25% of the time and 75% of the time is blanked out (i.e., black). For the Epson/Panasonic 480 Hz 3LCD projectors its about a 37% duty cycle. Ideally, for a 24Hz input signal a 3D projector would provide 72Hz or 96Hz per eye and there are a few of the newer DLP projectors that now provide 72 Hz per eye.

HERE is a link to a blog I did two years ago that includes a description of how the HW30es displays 3D (note that the description in that blog assumes a 30Hz or 60Hz input signal).

I would note that there might now be (or may be on next generation) some projectors that can display 24Hz input 3D video at 60Hz per eye when frame insertion (e.g., smooth motion) is turned on in 3D mode. I haven't checked this out, so I don't know if any current 3D projectors are doing this or not.


.



.

Thank you for this information. How does 240hz = 25%, and 480hz = 37% duty cycle? I understand the blanking procedure well (which is where the 480hz is beneficial), but I'm unsure as to how 240hz to 480hz is only a 50% increase in duty cycle?

Thanks again. smile.gif
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post #88 of 398 Old 08-20-2013, 06:39 AM
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If we line up the JVC, Sony, Epson and any DLP, there is an obvious difference in perceived flicker in the order that I listed.

I'm sensitive to refresh rate, the perception of the flicker never goes away for me on the JVC and Sony. It's quite good on the Epson and simply perfect on the DLP's.

Without the glasses, look at the HW50, Mitsubishi HC5 and BQ W7000 in 3D mode.

Sony HW50 (click)

Mitsubishi HC5 (click)

BQ W7000 (click)

Even before we put the glasses on, there is a noticeable flicker on the screen when in 3D mode on the SXRD models. The DLP image is rock solid, it looks as solid as a 2D image.

I can see why those sensitive to flicker would want to see an improvement here on the new HW55.


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post #89 of 398 Old 08-20-2013, 07:00 AM
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Quote:
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Thank you for this information. How does 240hz = 25%, and 480hz = 37% duty cycle? I understand the blanking procedure well (which is where the 480hz is beneficial), but I'm unsure as to how 240hz to 480hz is only a 50% increase in duty cycle?

Thanks again. smile.gif

As an example for 30 Hz or 60 Hz 3D input and with the projector operating at 240 Hz, the Sony HW30es will display one black frame between each video frame (or perhaps a better way to is to consider this a transition frame, during which time both lens of the 3D glasses must become opaque). This is necessary since the projector's LCoS chip take some overwrite the previous image with the new image. This isn't an issue with 2D video, but with 3D, where you alternate between right and left images the viewer must not see this transition otherwise there would be lots of 3D crosstalk. Thus the following frames are displayed during 1/60 sec. with each frame being 1/240 sec. long (i.e., refreshed at 240 Hz)

Right image -->blanking frame--->Left image--->blanking frame


Thus for each 1/60 sec. each eye is only seeing one video frame and the other 3/4 of the time it is seeing black giving a 25% duty cycle.


For the 3LCD, using the Epson 480 Hz. chips, they increase the duty cycles by displaying the following frame sequence each 1/60 sec. with each frame only be 1/480 sec. long:

Right image-->Right image-->Right image-->blanking frame-->Left image-->Left image-->Left image-->blanking frame

With this scheme the length of the blanking frame is only 1/2 as long as it is with Sony's 240 Hz projectors. For each 1/60 sec. each eye is seeing a video frame displayed for 3/8 of the time or a duty cycle of 37.5%.

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post #90 of 398 Old 08-20-2013, 08:50 AM
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And to continue for the professor, all other things being equal which they are of course not, the 3D image from the Epson would be brighter by this 1/8 increase for each eye.

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