new pj choice for scope to hdtv setup looking for real world experience feedback - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 33 Old 06-30-2013, 10:40 AM - Thread Starter
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New house.
New theater time
Looking to use a dual mask scope to hdtv screen.
Considering 4k sony pj vs newest top of the line jvc with power lens and memory setting
I have seen this done with the sony in a showroom.
Can it be done with the jvc also?
Is anyone doing it with the JVC?
Thanks
Paul
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post #2 of 33 Old 06-30-2013, 10:58 AM - Thread Starter
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So I went to the JVC website and evidently its easy to do. So my apologies for asking the dumb question. That being said which would you do sony 4k vs rs66?
Paul
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post #3 of 33 Old 06-30-2013, 11:07 AM
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what are your needs?
-3D?
-gaming?
-ultimate 2D image?
-watching sports?
-bright picture or deepest blacks?

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post #4 of 33 Old 06-30-2013, 11:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Ah yes sorry more details
No gaming
No 3d
Movies broadcast tv sports in that order of importance.
I will have an 80 or 90 inch screen behind the dropdown at 133 diag for scope.
Look forward to your thoughts.
Paul
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post #5 of 33 Old 06-30-2013, 11:28 AM
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you're talking projectors out of my range so take my thoughts with a grain of salt, but when looking between the jvc x35 and sony HW50, it seemed like the consensus was the sony was a little brighter, had less lag, and may have more reliable bulbs(jvc had issues last year). the result was the sony was better for gaming, 3D, watching sports.
on the flip side, the jvc was blacker, and had a better 2D picture for movies.

I have no idea if these issues scale up to the high end models or not. i'm sure the jvc still has a pretty bad input lag, but without gaming that's a non-issue really.

the 4k may be the biggest difference between the two. I don't know all the details on the sony, but the jvc is still really a 1080p projector with extra processing. it doesn't accept or support 4k resolutions.

based on your needs, i'd lean towards the jvc. but I do not really have any specific knowledge on the high end versions. just a general impression of the entire sony vs jvc lines.

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post #6 of 33 Old 06-30-2013, 11:58 AM - Thread Starter
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thanks for the feedback. Hopefully some out there are doing this and can chime in as well.
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post #7 of 33 Old 06-30-2013, 12:15 PM
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I'm going to recommend the opposite of what has been recommended. The Sony 1000ES is going to be a much nicer projector. Before I mention picture quality, you have to take into consideration brightness, especially because you want to zoom to fill your scope screen. The JVC isn't going to bright enough to do this. The Sony has a lot more lumens available to use in a scenario like this at the size you want unless you have a very high gain screen like the Da-Lite high power. You also get a much nicer lens over what the JVC offers. The Sony 50ES mentioned earlier doesn't have a nicer lens over the JVCs. It's actually a step down, but the 1000ES is going to have much nicer lens over any JVC. This is going to give you a sharper looking picture. The upconversion to 4K is also going to add to the sharpness. Sony's SXRD panels also handle motion much better than JVCs DILA panels do. I see that you aren't interested in 3D, but on occasion if you want to view it, the Sony will be a MUCH better choice. After a few hundred hours on the JVCs 3D is riddled with ghosting/crosstalk. The high end JVCs do have slightly better contrast over the Sony, but I think that all benefits such as native 4K, better motion handling, much sharper image, and extra brightness to zoom for scope material all trump the JVC. That difference in contrast in negligible in my opinion and would only be appreciated it you had both side by side. Both projectors are as good as it gets in digital projection with the JVC having a slight edge. Not to mention the overall viewing experience in regards to picture quality between the two has been reviewed to be totally in the Sony's favor. Please read some reviews on both. The Sony is quite a bit more expensive, but if you have the money it's most definitely the better projector from just about every possible angle.

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post #8 of 33 Old 06-30-2013, 03:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paulgas View Post

Ah yes sorry more details
No gaming
No 3d
Movies broadcast tv sports in that order of importance.
I will have an 80 or 90 inch screen behind the dropdown at 133 diag for scope.
Look forward to your thoughts.
Paul

Will this room be light controlled and treated to reduce reflections to the screen?

if this is your first projector, it would make more sense to pick last years RS55 / X70 to see in your home theater for a relatively low cost. Then you can get a baseline of a top under 10k model before deciding to invest 20k into a 4K unit.

These can be bought in the mid 3K range and will give you an idea of what to expect. E-shift looks excellent on a larger screen.
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post #9 of 33 Old 06-30-2013, 03:50 PM
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And what about brightness when zooming to fill a scope 133" screen? I don't think it would work too great unless he goes with a high gain screen.

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post #10 of 33 Old 06-30-2013, 04:06 PM
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Depends on the person. I used a similar screen that size with a jvc with no problem. The jvc can do 800 lumens, so brightness should be fine for 2D
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post #11 of 33 Old 06-30-2013, 04:23 PM
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Zooming to fit that screen at 800 lumens you're only looking at 13 foot lamberts with a unity gain screen and it will only diminish from there. The Sony will give him 22.

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post #12 of 33 Old 06-30-2013, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

Zooming to fit that screen at 800 lumens you're only looking at 13 foot lamberts with a unity gain screen and it will only diminish from there. The Sony will give him 22.

It should still be over 800 lumens for awhile, unless you are constantly watching it. But as Zombie said, he could get a RS55 or even a RS56 for a faction of the price. After seeing a Sony VPL-1000ES in person, I don't think its worth more than 7X the cost of a RS55 and 5X the cost of a RS56. Maybe buy two bulbs at $300 each if its getting dim after 500-600 hours. If lumens are the main concern, get a HP screen. Plus, in a 1yrs to 1.5yrs, that money saved could go for the 4K projector with the new standard and still will be less than what the Sony will cost now. The Sony is a better projector, no doubt. To me its like buying a RS66 over a RS55, its hard to justify. The RS66 cost a little over double of what the RS55 cost, but it is not double the performance, maybe 5%. Some may say the Sony is in another league, but I trust my own eyes. Just a matter of what 4K upscaling projector you want my a $3-4K or a $20K with similar PQ
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post #13 of 33 Old 06-30-2013, 05:21 PM
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Good comparison of the JVC and Sony from Andrew Robinson at Home Theater Review http://hometheaterreview.com/jvc-dla-x90rbu-d-ila-3d-front-projector-reviewed/

Conclusion
So the question that remains is, "With 4K around the corner. should I buy the X90RBU?" If I were in the market for a new top-of-the-line, cost-no-object projector, knowing full well that there is no 4K standard as of yet, despite the existence of the Sony VW1000ES 4K projector, I'd probably go with the JVC over all others. From a resolution standpoint, there is little to differentiate the X90RBU from the costlier Sony in that both are nothing more than upscaling 1080p projectors at present. When viewed through that lens, both offer similar, if not the same, picture quality in terms of resolution. The JVC bests the Sony with regards to its ability to be calibrated to THX and SMPTE standards (not to mention ISF), which the Sony cannot achieve. While the Sony may be brighter, if you value image accuracy and calibration, its added brightness is all but wasted on anything but the largest of screens. If you have a screen in excess of, say, 150 inches or more, then I feel the X90RBU's light output will not be sufficient. In that case, the Sony or perhaps a DLP-based projector would suffice. However, in the real world, judging the two on an apples-to-apples basis, the JVC is the better projector. Furthermore, one could purchase the X90RBU now for just under $12,000 and a 4K projector later for the same amount of money and still be ahead a thousand dollars over Sony.

Where the X90RBU's legitimacy or value becomes murky is when it is compared to its own stable mates, for the DLA-X70R is essentially the same projector for $4,000 less. Furthermore, if you're inclined to hold out until JVC comes to market with a true 4K projector, then I'm afraid the DLA-X30 is the projector to buy overall.

Regardless, my greatest takeaway from my time spent with the X90RBU is this: while it may still be a "FauxK" projector, the X90RBU has nothing to be ashamed of regarding its performance, for it is the best projector JVC has made to date and one that manages to upset its true 4K competition for the time being.
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post #14 of 33 Old 06-30-2013, 05:30 PM
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Lol, and yet he just bought a single chip DLP as his reference projector.

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post #15 of 33 Old 06-30-2013, 05:34 PM - Thread Starter
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So third theater. Last pj rs1
Room not light controlled during day hence 90" flat panel. Can use hp screen. Have access to jvc at a good price and Sony b stock units out there so Sony about two times prices of jvc for me.
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post #16 of 33 Old 06-30-2013, 05:37 PM
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Either choice will be a great upgrade. It's all about how much you're willing to spend. The Sony is definitely the superior projector especially at the screen size you have. You will also be 4K ready and be "future proof" for quite some time.

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post #17 of 33 Old 06-30-2013, 06:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paulgas View Post

So third theater. Last pj rs1
Room not light controlled during day hence 90" flat panel. Can use hp screen. Have access to jvc at a good price and Sony b stock units out there so Sony about two times prices of jvc for me.

if you can go with a 133" HP, the JVC will easily handle that size. I run a 142" HP with my RS55 with -11 on the iris. You might also consider the RS4810 which is affordable and you wouldn't likely miss the extra contrast of the RS56 without a treated room.
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post #18 of 33 Old 06-30-2013, 06:19 PM
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Depends on the person. I used a similar screen that size with a jvc with no problem. The jvc can do 800 lumens, so brightness should be fine for 2D

agreed. i'm just using a 100", but on low lamp, eco mode on(if it even does anything?), and the iris fully closed it's plenty bright on my 0.8gain grey screen.

not saying I wouldn't appreciate more brightness, in fact I do, and that's why I don't have the iris fully closed anymore. but if it came at the cost of contrast/black levels that were noticeable(there's the key word) I wouldn't take that trade off.

the same could be said the other way. jvc's seem to be criticized for both 3D and motion. i'm apparently blind to motion problems as I've pretty much never seen any display that looked better/worse than others in terms of motion. I've seen frame interpolation that made displays unwatchable, but other than that I think it's the source, not the display that makes the biggest difference. ie, as long as everything is broadcast in 24fps, or 30fps, even a 3000fps display isn't going to make a huge difference. and i'm quite pleased with the 3D for what I can see. it's on par with commercial theatres, so definitely 'good enough' for my needs.

obviously both are going to be fantastic projectors. it's kind of like trying to decide if we want a woman with big boobs or a tight butt. going depend on what gets ya going the most tongue.gif

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post #19 of 33 Old 06-30-2013, 06:23 PM
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Either choice will be a great upgrade. It's all about how much you're willing to spend. The Sony is definitely the superior projector especially at the screen size you have. You will also be 4K ready and be "future proof" for quite some time.

except that a true 4k connection still doesn't exist, so no commercial display on earth is even 'next year' proof really. that bothers me anyway, I certainly wouldn't jump on anything 4k until the hdmi 2.0 or whatever they end up using is finalized and present. if they were the same price it'd be a no brainer, but I wouldn't pay double for 'crippled' 4k

being future proof is nice, but with many electronics there's no financial advantage to buying more than you need/can use at the present time. I think 4k is a good example of that. as of now, there really isn't any 4k material to even watch, there is no 4k standard finalized, and you have to pay a hefty 'early adopter fee' to get one. if you buy like the x35 now, and replace it the second a fully featured 4k projector with the new connection, and there is 4k source material to view, I have to imagine that projector would be at least 3k cheaper than the current sony, meaning you wouldn't have saved a dime buying the sony early

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post #20 of 33 Old 06-30-2013, 06:27 PM
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except that a true 4k connection still doesn't exist, so no commercial display on earth is even 'next year' proof really. that bothers me anyway, I certainly wouldn't jump on anything 4k until the hdmi 2.0 or whatever they end up using is finalized and present. if they were the same price it'd be a no brainer, but I wouldn't pay double for 'crippled' 4k

There are several "True 4K connections" HDMI, DisplayPort, and DualLink DVI all support 4K and UHD resolutions. HDMI 1.4 supports 24hz for 4K and 30hz for UHD. Seeing how there is no content that refreshes more than that the 1000ES is perfectly fine. Also, Sony will be offering an upgrade path when the new HDMI standard is created for the 1000ES.

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post #21 of 33 Old 06-30-2013, 06:40 PM
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Is there a guarantee to the statement of the upgrade path? some of the folks who made that promise don't work for Sony anymore.

if they put it writing i'd be collecting my loose couch change. smile.gif until there is more 4K content (1-2 years?) most folks can live with the under 5k units. they don't exactly look like 480P business projectors. cool.gif
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post #22 of 33 Old 06-30-2013, 06:42 PM
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For a company who's on the brink of losing everything, they can't afford to lose more market share than they've already lost to competition. It would be VERY surprising if they fall through on all the people who've spent $20k+ on a product they promised an upgrade path to.

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post #23 of 33 Old 06-30-2013, 07:14 PM
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Paul,

If you have to have a projector right now, I would get a JVC RS55 refurbished(comes with 2 year warranty) like Zombie said in the $3.5-$4k range. Cedia is in Sept. and there is rumored to be a cheaper 4k projector announced by Sony and maybe a 4k JVC announcement. That said if money is no object buy the 4k Sony 1000ES and be done with it but if money does matter get a JVC for now and see whats announced this fall and then upgrade if necessary.

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post #24 of 33 Old 06-30-2013, 07:16 PM
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Quote:
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For a company who's on the brink of losing everything, they can't afford to lose more market share than they've already lost to competition. It would be VERY surprising if they fall through on all the people who've spent $20k+ on a product they promised an upgrade path to.

then they would have to offer the same exact upgrade to the upcoming 4K model in the fall. investing 12K isn't chump change on the eve of a standards change within the next year.

There's potential for stronger sales volume of this model due to the reduced cost. That would make a whole bunch more folks equally angry if it became outdated in less than a year.
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post #25 of 33 Old 06-30-2013, 07:20 PM
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Chances are this model will get the new HDMI port. I'm sure Sony has their hands deep in the 'HDMI 2.0' pot and knows what to expect as far as specifications and when it will officially be released. It's expected to be released before the end of the year. Just before this model.

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post #26 of 33 Old 06-30-2013, 07:55 PM
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then they would have to offer the same exact upgrade to the upcoming 4K model in the fall. investing 12K isn't chump change on the eve of a standards change within the next year.

There's potential for stronger sales volume of this model due to the reduced cost. That would make a whole bunch more folks equally angry if it became outdated in less than a year.

Its not really future proof, unless the new standard is added.
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post #27 of 33 Old 06-30-2013, 08:13 PM - Thread Starter
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So I love this forum.Starting a million years ago it gave me the info to build my first theater and now its working for number 3.
Great discussion and many many helpful hints.Now for more info.
House not move in ready till Dec or January
I will "order" the screen soon as it needs to be framed in but no new pj till January so the options keep expanding.
I will look into the other jvc units and report back. Look forward to more lively info and input!
Thanks again
Paul
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post #28 of 33 Old 06-30-2013, 10:50 PM
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There are several "True 4K connections" HDMI, DisplayPort, and DualLink DVI all support 4K and UHD resolutions. HDMI 1.4 supports 24hz for 4K and 30hz for UHD. Seeing how there is no content that refreshes more than that the 1000ES is perfectly fine. Also, Sony will be offering an upgrade path when the new HDMI standard is created for the 1000ES.

well there's not really any consumer 4k content either, YET, so what are we basing this on exactly? what we can get our hands on today, or what 4k/UHD is going to look like in 2yrs? the way I see it, if you buy for todays content you might as well stick with 1080p, and if you want to buy something to be ready for 4k and still be good in a couple years, you need to wait.

there's more to the future of 4k than the number of pixels. most games are 60fps, I would be surprised if they didn't go to 48fps movies in the not too distant future (hobbit?). 4k is going to push for more bandwidth, and larger capacity medium. that's the foundation needed to implement 48fps movies at home.

the sony is good for TODAY's 4k. but it's not future proof. we know there is going to be a new hdmi standard shortly, and who knows what else is right around the corner once 4k becomes widely accepted.

I mean, when I bought my first HDTV, it had a dvi input...

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post #29 of 33 Old 06-30-2013, 11:16 PM
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That isn't an excuse for the Sony 1000ES. Sony is going to deliver on their promise (some have doubts and I have no idea why) and have an update path for those who want to change out the input board/processing so their machines will be ready for the kind of 4K content you're talking about. This isn't an issue as you said, the projector is perfect for any content people have now and like I said, it will be ready for new content at higher framerates hopefully this fall with that upgrade path promised by Sony.

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post #30 of 33 Old 06-30-2013, 11:37 PM
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no one at this time can guarantee it will be updated. until Sony makes such announcement, it's just speculation.
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