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post #31 of 76 Old 07-12-2013, 04:33 AM
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Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

Can I just interject that while ANSI contrast is a form of intra-scene contrast that it does not specify the contrast available on-screen for all scenes. For example, if the bottom right corner of an image is peak white and the rest of the screen is black, if you measure the top left and the bottom right, you will get a MUCH higher reading (near on/off contrast numbers in a light controlled room). ANSI contrast measurement is almost a worst case scenario and typical intrascene contrast levels in movies may well be a lot higher.

You are absolutely right, but the only standard of measuring intrascene contrast is ANSI contrast and this gives you a good idea of how good the PJ differs black and white silmontaniously.

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post #32 of 76 Old 07-12-2013, 02:22 PM
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would ansi numbers still be a good indicator of how a projector performs in that other example of intrascene contrast?

I mean would a projector that measures 400:1 ansi, 'always' perform better with intrascene contrast than a projector that measures 300:1 ansi?

it still seems like we have all these tests that mean very little out of context. and they are almost always taken out of context frown.gif

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post #33 of 76 Old 07-12-2013, 09:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

Can I just interject that while ANSI contrast is a form of intra-scene contrast that it does not specify the contrast available on-screen for all scenes. For example, if the bottom right corner of an image is peak white and the rest of the screen is black, if you measure the top left and the bottom right, you will get a MUCH higher reading (near on/off contrast numbers in a light controlled room). ANSI contrast measurement is almost a worst case scenario and typical intrascene contrast levels in movies may well be a lot higher.

Jon. Its a very limited number of black and white squares and many cheat and try to eliminate the room from messing up whatever the max ANSI a projector can deliver by only measuring the squares near the center. a modified ANSI to measure projector performance rather than in a particular room.. But by no means is it a worst case. A far better test would be putting up an on off square pattern with each square being only slightly larger than the spot the .light meter is measuring. Of course there would be mucho measurements but the result would show a much lower anSI.

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post #34 of 76 Old 07-12-2013, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post


it still seems like we have all these tests that mean very little out of context. and they are almost always taken out of context frown.gif

you have to have some kind of balance here. if the ansi was high but native was weak, I'm going to zero in on 'muddy' blacks in my light treated room during low APL scenes.

so if my viewing habits involve movies with primarily low APL scenes, this is where the JVC is going to excel beyond the other projectors in the under 10k price range. I'm generally looking for the lowest black floor possible because I like the sci-fi genre. matrix, underworld, terminator, aliens, all great movies that look their best (IMO) on the JVC @ -11 on the iris.

Dark Stage concerts also look convincing, I recent watched The Cure Live in Berlin concert. it's very cool when the stage lights drop to near black, yet the overall picture is still vibrant with bright flashes of light moving all over the screen against a very dark background. This is high native contrast showing it's horsepower.

It didn't look anywhere near this good before I blacked out my ceiling and surrounding areas.
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post #35 of 76 Old 07-13-2013, 04:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Jon. Its a very limited number of black and white squares and many cheat and try to eliminate the room from messing up whatever the max ANSI a projector can deliver by only measuring the squares near the center. a modified ANSI to measure projector performance rather than in a particular room.. But by no means is it a worst case. A far better test would be putting up an on off square pattern with each square being only slightly larger than the spot the .light meter is measuring. Of course there would be mucho measurements but the result would show a much lower anSI.

You are quite right Mark. I should have said, it may not represent a typical watching scene and is likely to be considerably worse considering that 50% of the screen is at 100 IRE.

To answer Fierce_GTs question....an ANSI contrast of 500:1 does not mean the projector will always have a greater intrascene contrast than one at 300:1 for the reasons I outlined earlier. Consider that only the bottom right corner of the screen is peak white and everything else is black. This will result in an intrascene contrast ratio much closer to the on/off value. So if you consider a projector with ANSI of 500:1 but on/off of 20,000:1 and another projector with 300:1 ANSI, but 100,000:1 on/off...then the second projector will still do much better with the specific scene I outlined.
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post #36 of 76 Old 07-13-2013, 10:35 AM
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That's very interesting and informative JonStatt. I never thought of the implications of ANSI contrast that way. It makes more sense of how dynamic my JVC projector can look in many scenes, given it's relatively low
ANSI contrast measurements.
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post #37 of 76 Old 07-13-2013, 11:35 AM
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Over the years I have darken my room via varying steps. It's not a bat cave by any means although it's fairly dark. I'd guess 7 or so out of 10...

My experience has been the darker the room gets the more I need to reduce the projector's brightness to have a comfortable viewing image. One that doesn't strain my eyes. By reducing the brightness (to a large degree) the image's pop appears to lessen. I have several feet of space around the screen in all directions and the screen wall is basically black. Also, I tend to sit very close... roughly 1.1 times the screen's width (120" diagonal).

Of course the black level gets improved with the reduced brightness. At the same the brightness appears to really drop so the image appears flatter. I could brighten the image to get it back but then my eyes tend to fight looking at the image. Not long ago I tried a BenQ W7000 in my room and it looked the best (for me) with my lights turned on considerably (small spots that point downwards along the side of the room) as I could leave its brightness at full force. The image jumped off the screen. Once I turned the lights off I had to go into the service menu and reduce the brightness dramatically for two reasons. One my eyes couldn't take the piercing and with the room so dark the black level (or lack of) was very noticeable.
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post #38 of 76 Old 07-13-2013, 12:21 PM
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In some instances such as you describe a small amount of indirect bias lighting can really improve the appearance of the image. I have such a living room.. very bright image because of a small screen area and a 2.8gain HP. Screen is sort of shadow boxed with uplighthing in the corners that does not fall on the screen. Black level appearance is improved because the bias light keeps your pupils from opening up during dark scenes and eye fatigue is reduced as they are not constantly opening to the max and closing.. However you give up the submersiveness of watching the image in the black tunnel to some extent.. In a light colored living room that is not really going to happen anyway even with half the room darkened so adding the light to keeping the pop, lowing the perceived blacklevel and prevent eye strain trumps the subversive feeling in a mixed use room in my opinion.. Its all a compromise.. work with what you have and keep working on the wife to let you do what you need to do.. wink.gif
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post #39 of 76 Old 07-13-2013, 04:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

You are quite right Mark. I should have said, it may not represent a typical watching scene and is likely to be considerably worse considering that 50% of the screen is at 100 IRE.

To answer Fierce_GTs question....an ANSI contrast of 500:1 does not mean the projector will always have a greater intrascene contrast than one at 300:1 for the reasons I outlined earlier. Consider that only the bottom right corner of the screen is peak white and everything else is black. This will result in an intrascene contrast ratio much closer to the on/off value. So if you consider a projector with ANSI of 500:1 but on/off of 20,000:1 and another projector with 300:1 ANSI, but 100,000:1 on/off...then the second projector will still do much better with the specific scene I outlined.

thank you, that actually explained it very well for me. I always had this impression that ansi was important for 'real world' use and on/off is good for advertising. maybe this is moreso the case with plasma/lcd. anyway, thanks

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post #40 of 76 Old 07-13-2013, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

you have to have some kind of balance here. if the ansi was high but native was weak, I'm going to zero in on 'muddy' blacks in my light treated room during low APL scenes.

so if my viewing habits involve movies with primarily low APL scenes, this is where the JVC is going to excel beyond the other projectors in the under 10k price range. I'm generally looking for the lowest black floor possible because I like the sci-fi genre. matrix, underworld, terminator, aliens, all great movies that look their best (IMO) on the JVC @ -11 on the iris.

Dark Stage concerts also look convincing, I recent watched The Cure Live in Berlin concert. it's very cool when the stage lights drop to near black, yet the overall picture is still vibrant with bright flashes of light moving all over the screen against a very dark background. This is high native contrast showing it's horsepower.

It didn't look anywhere near this good before I blacked out my ceiling and surrounding areas.

sounds like you and I have similar needs/viewing habits. maybe i'll just keep following whatever you keep in your room, so far the jvc has been a winner for me:p

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post #41 of 76 Old 07-19-2013, 12:55 AM
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Throwing my experience on the pile, I tacked up a black 8x10' table cloth on my white ceiling above the screen and noticed a nice improvement in shadow details. Have considered doing a velvet theater curtain stripe area from the PJ to the screen trimmed with wood to match the rest of the basement and painting the ceiling a Matt gray of some sort, but I really like the brown ceiling idea mentioned earlier. Seems unconventional but I can see how it would be far less noticeable while providing the desired effect.

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post #42 of 76 Old 07-19-2013, 01:39 PM
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I've now watched a couple movies since painting the rest of my ceiling black, and the walls dark blue/black. I can't say I've really noticed an obvious improvement in picture quality, but the room stays darker(therefore less distracting), and I've actually found turning the iris down on my jvc to be a good thing now. before it just made the image look like it was losing pop. now, it's still bright enough, but it drastically reduces the amount of 'sparklies' and screen texture I see.

the downside, I find it much easier to see that black isn't black. i'm guessing my old 'bright' room was almost like bias lighting. it was bright enough it kept my irises more dilated and made blacks look blacker. with the new darker room, I guess my eyes are adjusting and fades to black don't look as dramatic as they used to. go figure

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post #43 of 76 Old 07-20-2013, 03:53 AM
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Does anyone have a ceiling out of wood?
In my basement my ceiling is wood tile, all ready to be stained ( or painted ).
Id rather stain, as it leaves the wood grain look wich i like, but it would be nice to get some feedback from someone that has it or seen it, what colour would suit?
Im thinking a chocolate or charcoal kinda colour in matte finish as i dont want the shine.
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post #44 of 76 Old 07-22-2013, 10:24 PM
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I have a white, highly textured ceiling in my home theater, and have left it alone because it would be almost impossible to paint. My JVC projector provides excellent image quality despite this handicap. However, my projector is shelf mounted, and thus a long way from the ceiling, and that likely makes a big difference.


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post #45 of 76 Old 07-22-2013, 10:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Clark View Post

I have a white, highly textured ceiling in my home theater, and have left it alone because it would be almost impossible to paint. My JVC projector provides excellent image quality despite this handicap. However, my projector is shelf mounted, and thus a long way from the ceiling, and that likely makes a big difference.


John

I just moved into a new apartment. All the walls are flat white in my living room. Coming from a light controlled room with blacked out walls and ceiling, I can tell you you're missing out on so much. One huge thing that helps is a retroreflective screen like Da-Lite's High Power which is a fantastic choice to negate room reflections and keep a lot of the contrast that would normally be lost with one that's angular reflective (95% of all screens). If you can, I highly suggest you try and black out the room with fabric to reduce reflections. You'll be floored on what you're missing out on, especially a JVC.

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post #46 of 76 Old 07-23-2013, 10:48 AM
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My experience has been the darker the room gets the more I need to reduce the projector's brightness to have a comfortable viewing image. One that doesn't strain my eyes. By reducing the brightness (to a large degree) the image's pop appears to lessen. I have several feet of space around the screen in all directions and the screen wall is basically black. Also, I tend to sit very close... roughly 1.1 times the screen's width (120" diagonal).

I've actually gone in the other direction. I don't sit as close though. I sit 1.27 screen widths from a 118" wide 2.35:1 StudioTek 130 screen, and 1.37 screen widths from a 106" wide 1.78:1 screen. Much closer than that and I think I'd want 4K. Anyway, I've found that I prefer 25 foot lamberts now, as opposed to around 18 - 19 foot lamberts with my Firehawk screen and not as dark a room. It just looks better. Cloud Atlas looked killer !!

Of course, it helps that I have a new cheaper source of lamps for my Lumis........... cool.gif

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post #47 of 76 Old 07-23-2013, 03:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Clark View Post

I have a white, highly textured ceiling in my home theater, and have left it alone because it would be almost impossible to paint. My JVC projector provides excellent image quality despite this handicap. However, my projector is shelf mounted, and thus a long way from the ceiling, and that likely makes a big difference.


John

I just finished painting my 'popcorn ceiling' all black. in all honesty, if I had a time machine, i'd go back to before I started and just scrap the texture off. it's actually super easy to remove, just messy obviously. but with the amount of work I had to do to paint it, and the amount of paint I had to use, I would have saved probably a full day or work, and at least 60bux worth of paint.

that all being said, for interest I temporarily installed my old white screen and wow. I will now admit, the painting has made a very noticeable difference. with my current grey screen, I didn't really notice much change, but now the white screen looks pretty much exactly as dark as the grey screen. before the painting the white screen didn't have the deep blacks I got with the grey one.

put it this way, it took me about 3weeks of hunting to find a grey screen in the size and features I wanted. I couldn't, and ended up compromising with an RF control instead of IR control. if I had to make that choice again today, i'd go with a white screen and not even think twice.

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post #48 of 76 Old 07-23-2013, 07:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Clark View Post

I have a white, highly textured ceiling in my home theater, and have left it alone because it would be almost impossible to paint. My JVC projector provides excellent image quality despite this handicap. However, my projector is shelf mounted, and thus a long way from the ceiling, and that likely makes a big difference.


John

I just finished painting my 'popcorn ceiling' all black. in all honesty, if I had a time machine, i'd go back to before I started and just scrap the texture off. it's actually super easy to remove, just messy obviously. but with the amount of work I had to do to paint it, and the amount of paint I had to use, I would have saved probably a full day or work, and at least 60bux worth of paint.

that all being said, for interest I temporarily installed my old white screen and wow. I will now admit, the painting has made a very noticeable difference. with my current grey screen, I didn't really notice much change, but now the white screen looks pretty much exactly as dark as the grey screen. before the painting the white screen didn't have the deep blacks I got with the grey one.

put it this way, it took me about 3weeks of hunting to find a grey screen in the size and features I wanted. I couldn't, and ended up compromising with an RF control instead of IR control. if I had to make that choice again today, i'd go with a white screen and not even think twice.

So are you saying that picture quality is similar between your gray screen with a white ceiling and a white screen with a black ceiling?

If so, I'll definitely go with a gray screen so I don't need to paint my family room ceiling black.

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post #49 of 76 Old 07-24-2013, 12:21 PM
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So are you saying that picture quality is similar between your gray screen with a white ceiling and a white screen with a black ceiling?

If so, I'll definitely go with a gray screen so I don't need to paint my family room ceiling black.

with white ceiling:
-grey screen looked better than white. deeper blacks, and the appearance of better contrast.

with black ceiling:
-grey screen presented almost no benefit in blacks


looking at it another way

with grey screen:
-tiny improvement in picture quality between having just the first 4 feet of ceiling painted black and the entire ceiling painted black

with white screen:
-significant improvement in picture quality with painted ceiling

I can't really say how grey screen/white ceiling compared to white screen/black ceiling directly though. but if you want to keep the ceiling white, I do think a grey screen will be a good choice.

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post #50 of 76 Old 07-25-2013, 06:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

would ansi numbers still be a good indicator of how a projector performs in that other example of intrascene contrast?

I mean would a projector that measures 400:1 ansi, 'always' perform better with intrascene contrast than a projector that measures 300:1 ansi?

it still seems like we have all these tests that mean very little out of context. and they are almost always taken out of context frown.gif

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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

thank you, that actually explained it very well for me. I always had this impression that ansi was important for 'real world' use and on/off is good for advertising. maybe this is moreso the case with plasma/lcd. anyway, thanks

The other's above explained it well, but lets toss some data at it. Take a look at these threads

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1046712/avs-apl-study-adjunct-to-avs-contrast-project
http://www.avsforum.com/t/852467/avs-contrast-thread-now-with-dynamic-contrast-results

In the first thread (I think it was) we coined the term, Average Display Luminance (since Average Picture Level has it's own definition that isn't quite right for what we're talking about). As ADL approaches zero, Sequential (On/Off) and Native Contrast more closely represent what you would see, while as you approach 50% ADL ANSI contrast is a better representation. I like to think of ANSI as "worst case" contrast while Sequential and Native contrast are "best case" Real content falls in between.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #51 of 76 Old 07-25-2013, 12:10 PM
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I stumbled across those threads just a little while ago.

i'm wondering though, since you brought this back from the dead, what happens in the 50%-100% range? does contrast curve back up?

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post #52 of 76 Old 07-25-2013, 01:38 PM
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Nope. It gets worse the more white you have. Worse case scenario is a black pixel in a white field.
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post #53 of 76 Old 07-25-2013, 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Drexler View Post

Nope. It gets worse the more white you have. Worse case scenario is a black pixel in a white field.

for sure? I only ask because the other posts all say that 50% is 'ansi' and 'worst case' specs. I wouldn't expect 99% APL to have the same contrast as 1% APL, but I thought it might at least be better than 50%.

does the contrast get worse because of light scatter, or what?

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post #54 of 76 Old 07-26-2013, 03:26 AM
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Well, ansi cr is kind of a "real life" worst type scenario as it is a really bright image far surpassing the typical movie scene. However, intra scene contrast is really measuring how much light pollution you get in the black areas. The more light you have, the more light pollution you get from eg light scattering.
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post #55 of 76 Old 07-26-2013, 11:44 AM
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thanks, I was just curious.

in real world I think it doesn't really matter, as the brighter the scene, the more dilated my irises and thus the darker the black looks anyway. I was watching oblivion the other day and it had a fade to black after a long very bright scene and I couldn't see anything! the same happens during a night scene in the TDK and I can still see the screen and stuff around the room.

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post #56 of 76 Old 07-26-2013, 01:51 PM
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It's fine, don't sweat it. Never had a problem with the white ceiling in my otherwise totally light controlled basement theater (114 inch screen):






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post #57 of 76 Old 07-26-2013, 08:07 PM
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That room would look great with a black ceiling. I waited until these tiles were released at the end of last year:

blackout2.jpg


ceiling.jpg

ceiling1.jpg


This is right before I finished it and covered the entire grid with the protostar material. The reduction of reflections from the white ceiling made a big difference in perceived contrast, especially for a JVC projector with a clamped iris.

blackout.jpg

you can see the white grid reflections before I installed the blackout material.

blackout1.jpg

after I finished, the ceiling disappears and adds a great, immersive experience seeing the screen 'floating in space'.
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post #58 of 76 Old 08-01-2013, 02:38 PM
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It's fine, don't sweat it. Never had a problem with the white ceiling in my otherwise totally light controlled basement theater (114 inch screen):

That ceiling has to be sending reflected light back on your screen. Heck, I was surprised, when doing the " Flashlight Test ", how much light was reflected back from a 4oz theater popcorn machine's glass side - even though it's 14 feet from the screen !! eek.gif

I made a special flat black panel just to stop that reflected light.

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post #59 of 76 Old 08-01-2013, 02:56 PM
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I think it'd be more interesting to hear if anybody has gone from a painted ceiling back to white and they still don't mind it.

because before I painted mine, I was also completely satisfied with the white ceiling and did not notice negative effects on screen. now that I've gone fully painted, i'm thinking if I ever went back to white i'd notice it more. kind of like the old saying, ignorance is bliss.

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post #60 of 76 Old 08-02-2013, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

I think it'd be more interesting to hear if anybody has gone from a painted ceiling back to white and they still don't mind it.

because before I painted mine, I was also completely satisfied with the white ceiling and did not notice negative effects on screen. now that I've gone fully painted, i'm thinking if I ever went back to white i'd notice it more. kind of like the old saying, ignorance is bliss.

Ignorance is bliss. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Being too smart for your own good. A ton of phrases. All correct. However, as long as you keep the scientific method in mind...it should prevent bankruptcy or divorce. tongue.gif

I must be guilty because people say I am guilty because they chose to call me guilty because they refuse to see the truth. Much easier to be part of the mob..
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