Blackest black contest between JVC and DLP on ultra HT gear forum section? - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 139 Old 07-24-2013, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

that setup was in November 2011, I wonder what he has now.

if you find those 'Lumi', let me know and I'll start selling all the toys right now....


I'm a DLP advocate too.. depending on what i'm watching. For those who love 3D, it's basically impossible for the other panel technologies to beat it's primary strength, flawless crosstalk and flicker performance. Even if I had a VW1000, i'd still likely have a dedicated 3D DLP since I know the flicker is going to bother me with the relatively 'slow' 240hz panels.

my RS55 looks great with my other favorite content, dark sci-fi movies. I don't mind running multiple projectors to suite my viewing preferences until a good deal on that 3D Lumis comes around.. biggrin.gif

If you are really bothered by flicker on 3D then a dual projector setup would be your best bet. There is a lot of DIY discussion (several years worth) on dual projector setups for 3D in the Ultimate 3D Projection thread. You can even run CFI on each projector and each eye can be seeing, for example, 120Hz video. I find that high frame rates (even the artificial kind with CFI) can work for 3D even if I don't like it for viewing 2D movies.


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post #92 of 139 Old 07-24-2013, 07:03 PM
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I'm a DLP advocate too.. depending on what i'm watching. For those who love 3D, it's basically impossible for the other panel technologies to beat it's primary strength, flawless crosstalk and flicker performance. Even if I had a VW1000, i'd still likely have a dedicated 3D DLP since I know the flicker is going to bother me with the relatively 'slow' 240hz panels.

my RS55 looks great with my other favorite content, dark sci-fi movies. I don't mind running multiple projectors to suite my viewing preferences until a good deal on that 3D Lumis comes around..

Dual projectors - that's the kind of crazy thinking that's resulted in my having 2 screens. WAIT A SECOND ! Come to think of it, I had at one time 2 projectors and 2 screens -

this was my former theater - My NEC HT1000 and Optoma H76 mounted prior to building the soffit. The short throw and big offset of the HT1000 makes it easy to have a 4:3 and a widescreen projector!
Another view of the seating and built in projector soffit. Note Axoim QS4 speakers. This was my previous home theater with an NEC HT1000 and a H79 running on 2 electric screens!!

I believe I am stark raving mad ( when it comes to home theater ), but it's a fine madness ! biggrin.gif

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post #93 of 139 Old 07-24-2013, 07:31 PM
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I too prefer dlp over lcos for many reasons, better motion, more 3d look to it,brighter punchier picture.

I owned a jvc rs55 for a while which replaced an infocus 7210 dlp and although the jvc had better contrast all the other reasons that I mentioned earlier drove me nuts with the jvc.

I sold the jvc and I bought a used 720 3 chip dlp to hold me over for a while.

I don't think seegs has an agenda I just think he sees what Myself and others do who appreciate dlp.

This is why people should view a as many pjs before buying one:D
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post #94 of 139 Old 07-24-2013, 08:21 PM
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Epitome of my life in this part of the forum:



In other related news: I got my new "toy" today. It's TINY!!! smile.gif But boy, oh, boy does it throw a nice, clean 3D image!

Optoma HD25

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post #95 of 139 Old 07-24-2013, 08:48 PM
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I think the MV3D's are going to be the innocent victim in this battle.

How do they look with the HD25?
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post #96 of 139 Old 07-24-2013, 08:59 PM
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So far so good. Though, I bought two pair of them used on amazon and I think that the battery in each is dead. I let them charge all last night because they wouldn't stay on. I went to fire them up today to view some 3D and the batteries only lasted a half hour. I only got to view a few scenes from IMAX Under The Sea and The Hobbit before they died. Now they won't seem to charge. I used the supplied USB cable for each. I can't seem to find official replacement batteries.

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post #97 of 139 Old 07-25-2013, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

Craig - I think it's an understatement to call Wolfgang an advanced hobbiest - i'm graduating him right to a PhD. his setup absolutely dwarfs the vast majority of members here, this is one of the most amazing setups I've ever seen!

IMG_9309.jpg
The guy must be a millionaire. If I were a millionaire I'd try and get one of those Grating Light Valve projectors installed on some observatories. biggrin.gif
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post #98 of 139 Old 07-25-2013, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

That may be true. IMO, the DLP originally mentioned in this thread ( SIM Lumis ) looks unlike any other that I have seen, due to the extremely fast and nearly invisible ( on properly working projectors ) D.I. system.

From my very limited expirience with DI (on HD8300), the main DI problem is not speed, but the compression of dynamic range and crushed details in light/dark areas. But users say this isn't a problem for Lumies either. How is it (theoretically) possible that Lumis DI has overcome this limitation?
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post #99 of 139 Old 07-25-2013, 02:00 PM
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It all comes down to the software behind it. A Dynamic Iris system is much more than just a dynamic adjusting iris, there are algorithms and logic behind it. I'd venture to say the actual hardware isn't that hard to make, it's relatively sorted technology. Cameras have irises that can adjust in less than 1/1000th of a second, hard drives have servos that can seek incredibly precisely in milliseconds. The hard part is all the algorithms and logic behind that hardware that make it work.

What I've gathered about a DI system is it involves:
  1. A physical system that reduces the light, sometimes a mechanical iris, sometimes light modulation (LEDs, unishape), sometimes a combination of both
  2. Something to evaluate/measure the video running through the system
  3. "Software" to decide when, how much, how quickly and for how long to drive 1 based on 2

I think 1 and 2 are not that hard, as evidenced by dynamic irises being in machines at almost every price point.

3 seems to be the "secret sauce" and few seem to really understand it. I think Sony, and Planar (Runco) have a pretty good handle on it, and apparently Sim2 just has it nailed.

It's important to understand that a DI system doesn't just cut the light output, it adjusts the "gamma" on the fly. I'd say how you overcome the limitation is by a lot of research into how things look. For example I think some DIs clamp down the iris whenever a large portion of the scene gets dark, resulting in pumping, but if there's something really bright in the scene our eyes sort of do that already, so you don't need to hit the iris aggressively since contrast will naturally look good. So perhaps Sim2 factors in peak white level more than some others? Just guessing.

A DI system is a system of compromises for an overall benefit, there's tons of ways to make those compromises some work better than others. It seems being able to be very fast, but at the same time conservative results in the best results.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #100 of 139 Old 07-25-2013, 04:55 PM
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I think SIM actually uses a hard drive motor for the iris, and " it adjusts the "gamma" on the fly " - I believe that is correct, and I believe it also uses lamp modulation.

I'm no engineer. I don't profess to know exactly how these work together. But I do know it can produce an extremely good picture.

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post #101 of 139 Old 07-25-2013, 06:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

I'm no engineer. I don't profess to know exactly how these work together.

I bet Sim2 likes to Keep it that way biggrin.gif

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #102 of 139 Old 07-25-2013, 09:01 PM
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I bet Sim2 likes to Keep it that way

It's been explained in detail on the Lumis thread ( one of the 2 threads ). I don't have the time to go look for it, but I encourage you to find the technical explanation posts and link them here. Should be no more than 1 or 2 thousand to read through..........wink.gif

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post #103 of 139 Old 07-25-2013, 09:09 PM
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I remember reading through that thread last year. The DI in the lumis in unlike any other. It is truly a proprietary DI solution built from the ground up for performance. The DI in the PD8150 I have is undetectable and is the best one I've seen. The only drawback is that whites do get clipped during particularly dark scenes. This doesn't happen with the DI system in the Lumis?

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post #104 of 139 Old 07-26-2013, 02:58 AM
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Its been an interesting read this thread and some good discussion. I'm on my 3rd JVC right now and currently running the X90 and I'll take this moment to get out my JVC fanboy flag and wave it nice and high as it produces the best image I've had in my home cinema yet and it continues to make my jaw hit the floor on a regular basis smile.gif

I've also had 2 Sony's and 5 DLP's from various manufacturers but the JVC is the winner in my room (its pretty well blacked out with a neutral 1.0 white screen) But then again, its the most recent and most expensive projector I've had so it should be pretty good.

I did however have an Optoma HD87 DLP and a JVC HD750 (RS20?) side by side a couple of years back and I picked the Optoma as I preferred it at the time. My room wasn't as black, my screen wasn't as big so maybe I couldn't notice the contrast and pixel fill advantage of the JVC at that time. I certainly preferred the motion and crispness of the DLP and sometimes the DLP just looked so much more 'alive' than the JVC did.

In reality, I'm not really a JVC fanboy - I actually really like Sony projectors for their overall 'jack of all trades master of none image' (exception to the VW1000 which I've never seen) The Sony's are extremely well balanced for everything and there is a very good chance my next projector will be Sony. The next releases from Sony excite me - can't wait to see what they will have on offer for us.

I'm also very interested in the Optoma HD91. If they can pull off single chip DLP LED at a reasonable cost then this could be a force to be reckoned with. I love the DLP image too (and I've had 5 of them which shows how much I like DLP) ok, so maybe lacking in contrast compared to JVC in my darkened room but they can make up for that in spades in other areas of image quality. On our shores, the Sim 2 150 LED machine is £20k on our shores so if Optoma pull out something at 75% less for cost it could be a mouthwatering proposition. Ok, it won't have the same chip, lens, processing or whatever but even if the Optoma can only stand tall enough to kiss the Sim 2's butt (it might even need to stand on its tip-toes) it should still be a force to be reckoned with.

Thankfully the theme of the thread has gathered towards there not being a right or wrong answer, this brand versus the brand or this tech versus this tech. I couldn't agree more. Having lived with numerous projectors, I see good in all the brands and all the techs and base my overall choice on what I like with my eyes for my room and my preferences at that particular time and in the end, thats how most of us make our choice.

One thing which has already been mentioned and that we can all agree on unanimously is that as time goes on - the choices just keep getting better and better and cheaper and cheaper. We've never had it so good!
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post #105 of 139 Old 07-26-2013, 03:08 AM
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even if the Optoma can only stand tall enough to kiss the Sim 2's butt
That cracked me up! Vivid allegory!
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post #106 of 139 Old 07-26-2013, 11:21 AM
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One thing which has already been mentioned and that we can all agree on unanimously is that as time goes on - the choices just keep getting better and better and cheaper and cheaper. We've never had it so good!

Or, if nothing else, like computers, we get so much better projectors for the same money than we did 8 years ago. Now, if we could just replace lamps with something that doesn't dim - LED's, laser, whatever. When a 4K 3 chip DLP with LED's is announced, I'll be salivating like one of Pavlov's dogs.......................smile.gifeek.gif

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post #107 of 139 Old 07-26-2013, 02:22 PM
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I've only owned JVCs (and a Panasonic) but I don't think "JVC Is The Best." I've been completely blown away by certain qualities I've seen in some DLPs, even cheap ones.
It just happens that the JVCs do great in the criteria I use. I like watching in pitch black, with as much of the room blacked out as possible, as I find it the most immersive way to
watch a movie. That puts serious pressure on the black levels of any projector, given it's competing against a true pitch black room surrounding the image. Since the JVCs
are renoune for black levels, and produce an overall excellent image for a price I can afford, that's what I own.

I don't encounter very many DLPs these days, though, so I guess I don't know what I'm missing. I'd love to see a Lumis Host or whatever the lates model is (3D?). The last DLP I saw
was a high priced Marantz model under a year ago. It looked great in a dedicated AV room. Though I went home, put on the same scenes of the movie at the same image size and
thought it looked better on my JVC. But that wasn't a side by side test so wudduagonnado?

Everytime projectors come out I hope for higher contrast. Getting sick of the incremental barely visible budges year after year.
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post #108 of 139 Old 07-26-2013, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

Or, if nothing else, like computers, we get so much better projectors for the same money than we did 8 years ago. Now, if we could just replace lamps with something that doesn't dim - LED's, laser, whatever. When a 4K 3 chip DLP with LED's is announced, I'll be salivating like one of Pavlov's dogs.......................smile.gifeek.gif

That is not going to be cheap!eek.gif

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post #109 of 139 Old 07-26-2013, 04:21 PM
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That is not going to be cheap!eek.gif

Like what? US$ 150K ? rolleyes.gif

You can buy a house with that. cool.gif

And there is no 4K movies for consumer yet. Heck, there still NO 4K consumer standard yet!

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post #110 of 139 Old 07-26-2013, 04:34 PM
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I'm thinking about 4 or 5 years down the line. I can wait ! wink.gif

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post #111 of 139 Old 07-27-2013, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post


Everytime projectors come out I hope for higher contrast. Getting sick of the incremental barely visible budges year after year.

Yeah, contrast has been just incrementally better hasn't it? JVC needs to think of something revolutionary like they did with the RS1. We'll just have to keep waiting. I'm satisfied with the contrast at the moment with my RS35, but in a couple of years I hope they can really improve it because its one of the most important aspects in picture quality. We need to be patient.
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post #112 of 139 Old 07-29-2013, 11:59 AM
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I think JVC needs to hop on the dynamic iris bandwagon to tell the truth. They've managed to eek out an incredible amount of native contrast from their chip, so adding a dynamic system would only make it better. They wouldn't have to be very aggressive with their native contrast numbers so image pumping and gamma manipulation would only have to be minimal, but they could achieve higher contrast numbers while maintaining a brighter image. The numbers JVC is claiming now are great, but if you want to achieve anything near it you are looking at a huge loss of light. Real world contrast is typically a quarter to half the contrast at best. But this is still better than most get even with their dynamic systems.

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post #113 of 139 Old 07-29-2013, 02:30 PM
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I agree Kris. A number of people have felt that way for quite a while about JVC adding a dynamic iris (given it seems they don't have any other new, earth-shattering contrast enhancement technology).
It's too bad that JVC seems too committed either out of pride or marketing, to a native-contrast-only approach.
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post #114 of 139 Old 07-29-2013, 03:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

I agree Kris. A number of people have felt that way for quite a while about JVC adding a dynamic iris (given it seems they don't have any other new, earth-shattering contrast enhancement technology).
It's too bad that JVC seems too committed either out of pride or marketing, to a native-contrast-only approach.

It's definitely a marketing ploy. Once they start to use a DI they can't claim their on/off contrast numbers are native. They have a substantial lead in native on/off contrast performance. They have no need to spend a ton of money in R&D to develop a DI when customers already buy their product knowing they get the best on/off contrast out there today. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

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post #115 of 139 Old 07-29-2013, 03:55 PM
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Interesting to see the new projector Art S. just got for his theater. 3 chip DLP - 30 foot lamberts calibrated on his big screen -
Quote:
We are getting between 28 and 30 fL, depending on how it was measured, on my Stewart ST130 at 14' width.
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post #116 of 139 Old 07-29-2013, 04:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

It's definitely a marketing ploy. Once they start to use a DI they can't claim their on/off contrast numbers are native. They have a substantial lead in native on/off contrast performance. They have no need to spend a ton of money in R&D to develop a DI when customers already buy their product knowing they get the best on/off contrast out there today. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Yeah, it would put them in a tough spot. Right now they can claim 130k:1 On/Off on their RS66, and that's both "native" and "realistic". They don't use a DI, and you can actually hit that >100k:1 in a calibrated, ideal movie watching trim (at least I assume so). It's an easy explanation to the uninformed what the benefits of very high native CR like that is. You can make a clear and concise case to a buyer why that's better than the competition.

If they put a DI on it, realistically to get good DI performance, they'd have to shoot for at most about a 5x multiplier (that seems to be what works well on DLP/Sony machines), that would put them at about 500k:1. Given JVC's general honesty in specs, that's probably about what they'd sell it at. Trouble is, Panasonic and Epson already advertise that contrast of about that figure (the AE8000 spec is 500k:1, the 6020 is ~300k:1). This would put JVC and probably more importantly their retailers in the difficult position of explaining that the JVC machine can actually hit the spec in a mode you'd use to watch movies. It would force the more difficult sell that "JVCs DI is better than Panasonics". Which while surely would be true, is a much more complicated sell/explanation.

Of course it only gets worse as you go down the line, you'd have something like a RS46 with a contrast spec of 250k:1 or so going up against similarly priced (maybe cheaper?) Panasonic and Epsons with much higher numbers. Just think about how complex the contrast discussions get here, where we "live" these topics, imagine what it would be at BestBuy or a small B&M when someone walks in off the street and wonders why they should spend more for a JVC with "worse" contrast.

I don't blame JVC for sticking native, they've got a winning formula there (judging by the fan base here wink.gif)

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post #117 of 139 Old 07-29-2013, 04:46 PM
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I'm not a huge fan of dynamic irises in the first place. My biggest pet peeve are the clipped whites they can produce on particularly dark scenes. People who buy a JVC as their first projector are ignorant to their faults. For a DI to work well, like you said, they need to keep it around a 3-5x multiplier. More than that, it typically becomes way too noticeable. On top of that you need to implement it smartly otherwise it kicks in too late or opens too soon. The only manufacturers who do good enough to keep the DI enabled at all times is Planar/Runco, Sim2, and Sony. With the other manufacturer's it's going to be hit or miss depending on the model, but normally they are too noticeable to be turned on 100% of the time.

I have a question.. is it really "native" contrast if one is using the manual iris on the JVC? I've always been told that with a projector like Sharp XV-20000 or the Samsung SP-A900B, or the Marantz VP-11S2 (all of which are ~12000:1 with the manual iris clamped down to it's lowest setting) that this isn't native contrast. In actuality it's ~3000:1 before the use of an iris. So isn't it a tad disingenuous to say that JVC's have native contrast ratios as high as 50000-130000:1? Native performance would then be around 20000-30000:1 if we were to hold them to the same standard.

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post #118 of 139 Old 07-29-2013, 04:54 PM
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Native contrast of a projector is a function of not just the imaging device but also the optical engine design, including the configuration of (often static) iris's. A good example is CINERAMAX's "Superkontrast" machines. They're (IIRC) "standard" DCI machines (normally 2k:1 or so native contrast) with modified static IRIS's to improve contrast at the expense of light output.

I guess what I'm saying is as far as I'm concerned if you can configure the projector so that it can achive "xxx:1" contrast ratio without any dynamic adjustments (ie, simultaneously), it's "native" contrast.

To argue that native contrast is without any static iris's is like arguing it's the contrast of the imaging device without the light engine, and there is no contrast without the rest of the light engine.

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post #119 of 139 Old 07-29-2013, 04:56 PM
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So then you could say that the Marantz VP-11S2 has native contrast of 12000:1?


This is why I don't always like when people quote on/off numbers. I was thinking to myself that "oh yeah, 12000:1 would be a measure of how much contrast can be in the image at any one time if you're using a fixed iris position." But then I thought "oh wait, no, during brighter scenes ANSI is a way more useful number here." Even though the Marantz has a black level of .002 ftl, during brighter scenes, it's 1000:1 ANSI contrast is way more apparent than it's weak on/off numbers compared to the JVC.

Last week I had the JVC DLA-X30 and Planar PD8150 side by side and brighter scenes looked so much punchier and "there" on the Planar, while the JVC has an almost washed out look in comparison. Well, not "washed out" but you can definitely see a huge difference. This was VERY apparent during the opening scene of Les Miserables. Anyways, I guess my point here is that the "blackest black" that the OP is talking about isn't always the best indication of how an image looks in regards to contrast. Certain material will favor one technology or the other. This is why I advocate for my PD8150, all but the darkest material will look on par with or better than the JVCs. To give the JVCs credit, on that same sid-by-side comparison I played the last Harry Potter movie and it was no contest as the JVC absolutely DESTROYED the PD8150. But then again, that movie basically sets the standard for dark movies. tongue.gif

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post #120 of 139 Old 07-29-2013, 05:27 PM
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Last night I watched the Japanese released of Terminator 2 on the RS55 with -11 on the iris. Overall PQ looked excellent (better than SkyNet release) and the low APL scenes were made for the JVC.

I don't see too many choices that will render a black floor this convincing in a light controlled / treated room. If I didn't use the JVC for anything else other my 2D BD's, it's still worth the price of admission.

short of the 30k+ lumis, I doubt i'll be pleased with a single unit for the various kinds of content i watch. With my current setup, it's no big deal to run multiple projectors.
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