Blackest black contest between JVC and DLP on ultra HT gear forum section? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 139 Old 07-23-2013, 02:21 AM - Thread Starter
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I remember few moths ago somebody having sim lumis or something like that projector which had deeper blacks than the best JVC projector. There was pictures which were taken in same conditions and you could see clearly from the picture that the dlp projector had deeper blacks than the jvc.

I'm not able to find the thread anymore but if I remember correctly it was somewhere in the ultra high end gear forum.
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post #2 of 139 Old 07-23-2013, 04:38 AM
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I believe you're talking about this:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1112115/sim2-lumis-3-chip-dlp-little-test/90#post_15650586

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post #3 of 139 Old 07-23-2013, 05:00 AM
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Is the native contrast of Lumis really 18.000:1?
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post #4 of 139 Old 07-23-2013, 05:51 AM
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I don't think anyone says it's native.

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post #5 of 139 Old 07-23-2013, 08:10 AM
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Is it dynamic contrast then (sequential contrast with dynamic iris engaged)? In this case there's a contradiction. He says he measured Lumis at 18000:1 full on/off and JVC at 20000:1. And yet Lumis has blacker blacks? And then he takes a picture of highlights to show that Lumis is more clipped (meaning it's brighter). So it can get darker and brighter than JVC. Pure logic dictates it must have bigger sequential contrast than JVC. Thus the only case of it being true is when 18000:1 is native contrast. And then with the use of dynamic iris you get deeper blacks with Lumis, it is explainable. Now if we assume that 18000:1 is with the use of DI - all meaning is lost to me. There's more than one inconsistency in this test.
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post #6 of 139 Old 07-23-2013, 09:46 AM
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Well a couple things.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elix View Post

Is it dynamic contrast then (sequential contrast with dynamic iris engaged)? In this case there's a contradiction. He says he measured Lumis at 18000:1 full on/off and JVC at 20000:1. And yet Lumis has blacker blacks?

This is quite possible, the iris just has to clamp down so the peak light output is lower, that would make the blacks lower.
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And then he takes a picture of highlights to show that Lumis is more clipped (meaning it's brighter). So it can get darker and brighter than JVC. Pure logic dictates it must have bigger sequential contrast than JVC.

I'm not sure which picture you're talking about, I didn't read that any of them are to show highlights, the last one is just overexposed to show the difference in black level between the two.
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Thus the only case of it being true is when 18000:1 is native contrast. And then with the use of dynamic iris you get deeper blacks with Lumis, it is explainable. Now if we assume that 18000:1 is with the use of DI - all meaning is lost to me. There's more than one inconsistency in this test.

I'm not really sure what's up with his measured numbers, I think the numbers don't agree with what the pictures show, that the Lumis has greater dynamic range. Why his numbers are wonky, I don't know, looking through the thread, I don't think I ever found a good answer.

The explanation seems to be that if you have "any" above black on the JVC that it's black level doesn't hold up and the Lumis beats it. Essentially that the Lumis is closer (with the Pioneer logo for example) to it's measured 18000:1, than the JVC is, maybe the JVC is effectively 15000:1 if your "black" is not full black but black with some white. Just a possibility.

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post #7 of 139 Old 07-23-2013, 09:58 AM
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I'm not sure what you guys are asking here. No, the Lumis native contrast isn't as high as the JVC. But, it has the best dynamic iris ( and some other things working with the iris ) that I've ever seen. Not to mention I can put over 27 foot lamberts on my screen with mine ( but with my T1 lens I only get around 15,000:1 contrast ) . I believe Lumis's with the T3 lens have been measured at 28.000:1. Combined with the other qualities a 3 chip DLP brings to the table picture wise, you can't beat it.

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post #8 of 139 Old 07-23-2013, 10:54 AM
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I think what you may be missing is that in the original test he states he has shots with 'db on' and 'db off' (dynamic black or in other words dynamic iris). The shot with dynamic black off the Lumis is pretty close to the JVC but a touch lighter. With Dynamic Black on the Lumis is obviously much darker because the iris is closed down.

Hopefully that explains things. I was confused by this for a while and was convinced that DLP had some magical element that gave it higher native contrast smile.gif The Lumis iris is obviously doing something pretty clever though because the over-exposed James Bond shot seems to have darker black bars. It may be that it works better than the JVC on content with a mix of light and dark in the scene.

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post #9 of 139 Old 07-23-2013, 11:13 AM
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I think most of you have a pretty good understanding how native contrast on modern projectors works:


With the overall scene luminance getting close to 0% you get on/off contrast. With the overall scene luminance getting close to 50% you get ANSI contrast. And the graph will look very close to the upper one on every projector. Dynamic Iris lowers the blacks as much as whites. As you can see on the graph if projector's native contrast is 18000:1 then on very low APL scenes (like the Pioneer logo in the test) you will get a contrast very close to the native value (given the room is well treated). I don't know what magic technology Lumis uses but can it really exceed its native contrast on low APL scenes with Iris closed down?..

On that Pioneer logo picture we can see the difference in black but we can't see the difference in white. In reality it could've been as much as apparent.
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post #10 of 139 Old 07-23-2013, 11:32 AM
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that thread has spawned a number of different discussions on this same topic over the last few years.

multiple exposures with an HDR blend would likely be more revealing.


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post #11 of 139 Old 07-23-2013, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

multiple exposures with an HDR blend would likely be more revealing.
I agree. But requires scientifically brutal honesty from a tester.
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

Combined with the other qualities a 3 chip DLP brings to the table picture wise, you can't beat it.
What other qualities does a 3-chipper bring to the table? I've been hearing a lot of this statement, I want continuation smile.gif Okay, I may think of some myself:
1) Lack of RBE
2) Proper color luminances (as opposed to single chip DLPs)
3) ?
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post #12 of 139 Old 07-23-2013, 12:01 PM
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Much much brighter picture is another one. I now consider anything under 16 foot lamberts " dim ". I also find the picture more 3 dimensional compared to other projector technologies, which could be due to higher ANSI contrast. That, like what makes a 100 point wine better than plonk, is not really something you can " measure ".

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post #13 of 139 Old 07-23-2013, 12:05 PM
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I'd love to see this done on some newer machines (like the Lumis, Vango, Mico, VW1000, 95ES, Planar 8150/LS5, etc):
http://www.avsforum.com/t/852467/avs-contrast-thread-now-with-dynamic-contrast-results

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post #14 of 139 Old 07-23-2013, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elix View Post

I don't know what magic technology Lumis uses but can it really exceed its native contrast on low APL scenes with Iris closed down?..

It doesn't really have to if the intrascene contrast on a JVC plummets as APL increases a lot faster than the Lumis.

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post #15 of 139 Old 07-23-2013, 01:05 PM
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I've not spent a lot of time diving into measurements, is it generally considered now that LCOS based projectors don't fare as well as DLP in higher APL (average picture level) scenes? I have seen arguments that native contrast would ultimately trump everything else

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post #16 of 139 Old 07-23-2013, 01:44 PM
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I've not spent a lot of time diving into measurements, is it generally considered now that LCOS based projectors don't fare as well as DLP in higher APL (average picture level) scenes? I have seen arguments that native contrast would ultimately trump everything else

This has been done to death in the over 20K forum. There are always a couple of JVC owners that get their panties in a bunch to find out there might be something that looks better. Some of the folks that tested the Lumis against the JVC's can afford to have multiple projectors at their disposal. And have tested all manner of projectors from $5K to $100K machines. Anyway, it isn't all about native contrast. There are many other considerations to a good picture. If you run too big a screen or like a bright picture, you don't get those big contrast numbers anyway. You have to open your iris and run in high lamp mode.

Where is ColdMachine? He loved to take this subject on.

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post #17 of 139 Old 07-23-2013, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

This has been done to death in the over 20K forum. There are always a couple of JVC owners that get their panties in a bunch to find out there might be something that looks better. Some of the folks that tested the Lumis against the JVC's can afford to have multiple projectors at their disposal. And have tested all manner of projectors from $5K to $100K machines. Anyway, it isn't all about native contrast. There are many other considerations to a good picture. If you run too big a screen or like a bright picture, you don't get those big contrast numbers anyway. You have to open your iris and run in high lamp mode.

Where is ColdMachine? He loved to take this subject on.

I had the Planar PD8150 up against the JVC DLA-X30 side-by-side last week. Brighter scenes look more "there" on the PD8150 due to the higher ANSI good DLPs offer. JVCs are good and are cheaper than what you have to pay for a very high performing DLP.

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post #18 of 139 Old 07-23-2013, 02:16 PM
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JVCs are good and are cheaper than what you have to pay for a very high performing DLP.

That I can agree on 100%. smile.gif

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post #19 of 139 Old 07-23-2013, 02:26 PM
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Yeah, unfortunately it's really hard to get any really solid information on the subject for some reason. JVC's tend to have a lot of passionate fans that are quite vocal and provide "rigorous defense/promotion" of their favorite machines (let's be clear, I'm not saying JVC hasn't earned their fans, they most definitely have), while it seems like at the high end there's not necessarilly a lot of tolerance for "questioning" observations, or for doing detailed measurements.

What I mean is when the topic comes up there ends up being a lot more noise than signal in the discussion. That thread is a great example, the folks supporting the "Lumis is better" contention seem to get a little up tight that anyone would question their opinions. Of course at the same time they don't help themselves by posting confusing numbers either. Then there's the JVC side which seems to bias toward the "The JVCs numbers are higher so it must be better and it's cheaper to boot".

A couple things I'll say for my "interpretation" (using the term super loosely here):

1) Contrast performance is incredibly complicated, especially when dynamic features are factored in. It's far more complicated than 1, 2 or even 100 measurements can explain. Mark P's thread is awesome, but I think what it does best is illustrate how hard it would be to really, scientifically, explain contrast performance of a projector.

Let's just look at two of Mark's graphs to illustrate that point:



Here we have contrast measured with 12 measurements, that should be enough right? Obviously the JVC is better right?

Well, like I said, it's complicated...

2) When you throw dynamics into the picture native, "contrast" doesn't translate directly to black level.


In this case the "inferior" Sony has a lower ("better") black level at low APLs.

Then to further complicate things when you compare something with "poor" ANSI contrast and great on/off to something with the reverse (like an RS1 vs a Sharp 20K):


Now something like the Lumis just makes things all the more complicated, take a bit of everything above:
Best DI solution on the market
Best (or close to it) ANSI contrast on the market
Potentially very good Native contrast (haven't seen a number but it doesn't look way off the JVC somehow from the DB Off picture)

And you've got an outcome with way too many variables to predict based on only one specification (on/off contrast).

A thought excercise:
Supposedly the Lumis has an ANSI CR of 1000:1 (or better), and judging by the relative closeness of the DB Off picture, lets just say it's about 8000:1 native like the Sharp 20k in high contrast mode. I would expect that the Bond scene would be a high ADL to where the Lumis would probably win anyway. And even the Pioneer Logo, since the text is so bright, could be high enough APL to win there too.

Some interesting references:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/852467/avs-contrast-thread-now-with-dynamic-contrast-results#post_10631471
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1046712/avs-apl-study-adjunct-to-avs-contrast-project

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post #20 of 139 Old 07-23-2013, 02:32 PM
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craig - don't you guys ever get b-stock of the 3D solo? biggrin.gif I'd likely take this over a VW1000 since widespread 4K isn't realistically going to happen for 2+ years and the 3D is going to smoke the Sony in every regard. I'd finally have my 1 projector solution.


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post #21 of 139 Old 07-23-2013, 02:36 PM
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Imnot susurprised that the lumis is better than the rs20, contrast and all. It should be, its much more expensive. I would like to see it compared to the rs65 or 66 with respects to black levels. If it outperforms those jvc projectors with 100k contrast, I would be moving on to a different projector
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post #22 of 139 Old 07-23-2013, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

Much much brighter picture is another one. I now consider anything under 16 foot lamberts " dim ". I also find the picture more 3 dimensional compared to other projector technologies, which could be due to higher ANSI contrast. That, like what makes a 100 point wine better than plonk, is not really something you can " measure ".

Which projector you use and what type of lumens are you getting? Recently I been looking at 3 chippers.
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post #23 of 139 Old 07-23-2013, 03:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

Imnot susurprised that the lumis is better than the rs20, contrast and all. It should be, its much more expensive. I would like to see it compared to the rs65 or 66 with respects to black levels. If it outperforms those jvc projectors with 100k contrast, I would be moving on to a different projector

Most DLP owners realize that we aren't going to get JVC black levels and native contrast. Instead, we value more than just black level as the end-all-be-all determining factor in our projector choice. This is one of the main issues I find with this forum. There seems to be way too much emphasis on contrast performance over other picture quality aspects. I agree that contrast performance is a big deal when it comes to picture quality, but there are so many projectors out there today that give you enough contrast performance where other aspects should be of more concern when looking at 2 or 3 other projectors. 100000:1 contrast is great, but not if the unit isn't sharp, handles motion poorly, doesn't calibrate well, 3D is awful, image scaling sucks, ect...
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post #24 of 139 Old 07-23-2013, 03:08 PM
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craig - don't you guys ever get b-stock of the 3D solo? I'd likely take this over a VW1000 since widespread 4K isn't realistically going to happen for 2+ years and the 3D is going to smoke the Sony in every regard. I'd finally have my 1 projector solution.

I'm going to find out. Maybe if you and I each buy one, we can get a deal.* smile.gif





















* It would be easy for me to sneek a new SIM Lumis 3D Solo into my theater, if I didn't think my wife would notice the new hole in our bank account............ eek.gif

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post #25 of 139 Old 07-23-2013, 03:21 PM
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Most DLP owners realize that we aren't going to get JVC black levels and native contrast. Instead, we value more than just black level as the end-all-be-all determining factor in our projector choice. This is one of the main issues I find with this forum. There seems to be way too much emphasis on contrast performance over other picture quality aspects. I agree that contrast performance is a big deal when it comes to picture quality, but there are so many projectors out there today that give you enough contrast performance where other aspects should be of more concern when looking at 2 or 3 other projectors. 100000:1 contrast is great, but not if the unit isn't sharp, handles motion poorly, doesn't calibrate well, 3D is awful, image scaling sucks, ect...

Not to mention that when measured, the real numbers are not what the specs say. Sony HW50 - 20,894:1 full on / full off contrast ( measured by Home Theater Magazine ) with 17.58 foot lamberts ( 96" wide StudioTek screen ). That's good - and realistic. It throws a good picture for the price.

My Lumis Host gets around 15,000:1 on / off at 20 foot lamberts on a much bigger screen - 118" wide / 2.35:1screen, without an anamorphic lens.If only i had a longer throw theater, I could have much higher on / off numbers. I'll tell you what though - the picture lacks for nothing even in dark scenes like the last part of Zero Dark Thirty or other dark movies ( Dark City in fact looks freaking awesome )!!

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post #26 of 139 Old 07-23-2013, 03:42 PM
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Most buy jvcs because of the price. Get in on the pre order price and you can get a something that outperforms every projector $10,000 or less for $5000 or less. If a high lumen 3 chip dlp was the same price, things would be different. Some people just can't afford a $20k+ projector, so they have to settle for a $2500 projector.
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post #27 of 139 Old 07-23-2013, 03:46 PM
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They don't outperform every $10000 and under projector. I think that the Sony VW95ES, Runco LS-5, and a few from Digital Projection and Sim2 have better performance over the JVC models.

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post #28 of 139 Old 07-23-2013, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

They don't outperform every $10000 and under projector. I think that the Sony VW95ES, Runco LS-5, and a few from Digital Projection and Sim2 have better performance over the JVC models.

Ill chose a rs65 or rs66, but I never seen the others
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post #29 of 139 Old 07-23-2013, 04:47 PM
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Haha, you choose the JVC over others without even seeing them? Sometimes I just don't get this forum. JVC projectors are the best, I forgot.. rolleyes.gif

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post #30 of 139 Old 07-23-2013, 06:05 PM
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Of course, I know how jvcs look and I had one the past three years. I should chose something else because you say so? If I can see the others, I'm going to choose something I know and like. People who seen all those projectors still own a jvc, they are crazy too? Many members seen many, many projectors and still own a jvc.
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Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

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