CEDIA Expo 2013 - Projector Manufacturers and Rumors - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 146 Old 08-10-2013, 04:09 AM
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Originally Posted by anidabi View Post

What is this fuzz about needing hdmi 2.0 to be able to watch 4k movies? As far as i know hdmi 1.4 supports 4k at 30fps. Yes, so no 4k 3D, but yes 4k 2D movies.

I think the main thing is the higher bits of color and BT. 2020. Those are supposed to make a major difference compared to what hdmi 1.4 offers. We will see soon if it does
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post #92 of 146 Old 08-10-2013, 04:15 AM
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post #93 of 146 Old 08-10-2013, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

I think the main thing is the higher bits of color and BT. 2020. Those are supposed to make a major difference compared to what hdmi 1.4 offers. We will see soon if it does

Yeah, the 10 or 12 bit color that the next optical disc format should offer is what I am mainly concerned about. HDMI 1.4 will handle 2160p at 24Hz.

The Mayans were full of sh*t!!!
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post #94 of 146 Old 08-10-2013, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by mbw23air View Post

Yeah, the 10 or 12 bit color that the next optical disc format should offer is what I am mainly concerned about. HDMI 1.4 will handle 2160p at 24Hz.


I think the majority would be satisfied with 2160p24.
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post #95 of 146 Old 08-10-2013, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

I think the majority would be satisfied with 2160p24.

Until 4k bluray comes out and they realized they weren't getting the full color benefit they could get. Oh, wait, you said the majority, and except for AVS forum members, you are right. wink.gif

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post #96 of 146 Old 08-10-2013, 03:39 PM
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Anidabi.... If Sony's lead on 4k content is any indication, a revamped, "more secure" method of delivery will be required for 4k movie content. Their server already has this, and the assumption is that this would be built into the new hdmi standard, which will also bring the bitrate, colorspace, frame rate, etc improvements.
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post #97 of 146 Old 08-10-2013, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

I think the majority would be satisfied with 2160p24.

I bet people thought the same thing when they bought early HDTVs that only accepted 1080i or didn't accept 1080p24.

Yeah, 2160p24 will work, and if we were talking about say <$3k 4k machines it would be one thing, but who wants to spend $10k+ on something that will be "obsolete" in less than a year.

The other thing is you can't say use a 4K capable Radiance with an HDMI 1.4 machine and watch TV upconverted to 4k60p.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #98 of 146 Old 08-10-2013, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

I bet people thought the same thing when they bought early HDTVs that only accepted 1080i or didn't accept 1080p24.

Yeah, 2160p24 will work, and if we were talking about say <$3k 4k machines it would be one thing, but who wants to spend $10k+ on something that will be "obsolete" in less than a year.

The other thing is you can't say use a 4K capable Radiance with an HDMI 1.4 machine and watch TV upconverted to 4k60p.

Exactly, I don't blame anyone for buying the Sony VW1000 because it will be upgradeable to HDMI 2.0 and did street around Feb. 2012 but any new projector coming out this close to when the HDMI 2.0 specs are agreed upon should either include HDMI 2.0, be upgradeable to HDMI 2.0, or not come out until it can include HDMI 2.0. I really don't think any manufacturer would put out a $10k 4K projector this fall without including it or have a plan for their projector to be upgradeable.

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post #99 of 146 Old 08-10-2013, 09:16 PM
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I could go for some wolf cola right about now.
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post #100 of 146 Old 08-11-2013, 12:29 AM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

I think the majority would be satisfied with 2160p24.
There's also the wrinkle of a new bd spec for 4k incorporating the hevc codec blee ; Frame rate may be 60hz or more for 3d .. Some food for thought -
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As with 3D, the best 4K delivery solution for the home is likely to be Blu-ray Disc. “The physical format can do it,” declares Don Eklund, executive VP of technologies at Sony Pictures Technologies, thanks to new compression algorithms. Most notable is HEVC, or High Efficiency Video Codec, which is now in advanced development. It’s considerably more efficient than the AVC codec now commonly used on Blu-rays while remaining similarly free of artifacts, and it will allow a 4K film to fit on a mass-replicated 50-gigabyte, two-layer Blu-ray Disc. “I’ve seen samples of what that codec can do with 4K at a 30-megabit-per-second bitrate compared to what AVC can do at 50 Mb per second, and it actually looks a little bit better at 30 than AVC looks at 50,” Eklund says
.

http://www.hometheater.com/content/4k-revolution-page-2
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post #101 of 146 Old 08-11-2013, 05:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by cwt View Post

There's also the wrinkle of a new bd spec for 4k incorporating the hevc codec blee ; Frame rate may be 60hz or more for 3d .. Some food for thought -
.

http://www.hometheater.com/content/4k-revolution-page-2

I certainly would expect a lot of movies, including a typical 2 hour 2D movie shot at 24 fps, could be accommodated in 4K at 10-bit (or maybe even 12-bit) color depth on a 2-layer BD using HEVC. This would be especially true if they were to support use of the extended length BD format that allows up to 66GB on a 2-layer disc. However, I do expect a role for 4-layer BDs for longer movies, some 3Ds, for movies at 48fps or 60fps, and when the studio wants to put extras on the same disc as the movie.

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post #102 of 146 Old 08-11-2013, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by cwt View Post

There's also the wrinkle of a new bd spec for 4k incorporating the hevc codec blee

FWIW, whatever codec is used has absolutely no impact on HDMI. It's up to the player to decode the compresed/encoded video into the appropriate raw video format for HDMI.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #103 of 146 Old 08-11-2013, 12:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

FWIW, whatever codec is used has absolutely no impact on HDMI. It's up to the player to decode the compresed/encoded video into the appropriate raw video format for HDMI.

That's correct. The decoder for the codec is in the BD player. Today's 1080p BD players are required by the BD standard to include decoders for three different codecs (Mpeg 2, VC1 and h.264) while the 4K extension for BD will likely require the decoding of HEVC. What goes across the HDMI to the TV (be it HDTV or UHDTV) has already been decoded by the BD player. The HDMI 2.0 std. will need, however, to define the signal format for 4K 3D, probably along the lines of the frame packing technique used for 1080p 3D with today's 3D BD players. The HEVC standard, defined by h.265, as it now stands is only a first step and only defines a very basic 4K at 24Hz for 2D video. Amendment 1 to h.265 which is expected to be approved in late 2013 or very early 2014 and is supposed to include 4K at up to 60Hz and also 4K 3D. It has been reported by an insider that the draft for the additional 4K capabilities is essentially complete and has been agreed by the technical group members responsible for drafting amendment 1 to h.265, so having that completed in time to be referenced by a Blu-ray 4K spec. seems feasible.

As for progress on the BD 4K standard, in an interview with CNET about 3 months ago, an exec. with the Blu-Ray Disc Association said (in part):

“As part of its ongoing responsibility to maintain Blu-ray Disc as the premium platform for watching movies and other content at home, the BDA established a task force last year to study a range of possible format extensions, including those that potentially enable 4K content playback on Blu-ray.

Through the first quarter of this year, the task force solicited and received numerous proposals, and is now evaluating the various technologies.

The task force, which is comprised of representatives from BDA member studios, consumer electronics manufacturers and media technology companies, looks forward to sharing with and receiving input from content creators, and is expected to make specification and technology recommendations to the Blu-ray Disc Association board of directors later this year
.

That appears to be saying the spec. will be finished by the end of this year, which should mean 4K UHD BD players and software by late next year.


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post #104 of 146 Old 08-11-2013, 12:45 PM
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The thing I'm worried about it the new copy protection(like on the 4k sony tvs) that are in place on 4k content. That is the reason the vw1000 can't (yet) use the 4k server. I'm thinking that sony will announce any new 4k projectors with either hdmi 2.0 or 1.4 but with the proper protocols in place to watch content like the sony 4k server with the newest copy protection. The only reason I care about 60 hertz is pc gaming, but I'd be willing to live with 30 hertz there. I don't get a single 1080p channel. 4k is a way off over my cable network.

But what happens if the new 4k projector comes with hdmi 1.4 and can accept the new dhcp. What if the new 4k physical format uses a wider color space? Is hdmi 1.4 crippled in terms of 10 or 12 bit color at 24 hertz ???? Then We can't watch any 4k movies?
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post #105 of 146 Old 08-11-2013, 03:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anidabi View Post

What is this fuzz about needing hdmi 2.0 to be able to watch 4k movies? As far as i know hdmi 1.4 supports 4k at 30fps. Yes, so no 4k 3D, but yes 4k 2D movies.

 

 

HDCP 2.2.  And it's not likely HDCP 2.2 will be implemented until HDMI 2.0 is ready.

 

Yes it's true that 1.4 supports 4K.  But no one is using it or will use it for commercial rental movies.  Sony Entertainment/Sony Studios seem to be the only group that has made any attempt to release commercial media and at this point all of 10 movies that are only accessible on a proprietary connection and HDCP for their 4K panels.  I don't think the industry is ready to give away 4K rips of their property with only the current HDCP in place.  That includes Sony.

 

I doubt you'll see other studios talk about 4K until HDCP 2.2 is in place and HDCP 2.2 is going to be a real pain in the ass to use.

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post #106 of 146 Old 08-12-2013, 06:19 AM
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I still wonder who tries to make copies by reading the video from the HDMI outputs. And most "pirates" couldn't care less if the original video was in 4k or 1080p or whatever... it ends up on some torrent site ripped to 1/10th its original size and played back on a college kids iPhone or iPad.

Studios would do themselves a service by just making the content available at good prices and letting the vast majority that would rather pay for it than go find some seedy way to save a few bucks watch it without a retinal scan.

Their magical 4k master copy means nothing to most of the movie watching world.
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post #107 of 146 Old 08-12-2013, 06:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by b curry View Post


HDCP 2.2.  And it's not likely HDCP 2.2 will be implemented until HDMI 2.0 is ready.

Yes it's true that 1.4 supports 4K.  But no one is using it or will use it for commercial rental movies.  Sony Entertainment/Sony Studios seem to be the only group that has made any attempt to release commercial media and at this point all of 10 movies that are only accessible on a proprietary connection and HDCP for their 4K panels.  I don't think the industry is ready to give away 4K rips of their property with only the current HDCP in place.  That includes Sony.

I doubt you'll see other studios talk about 4K until HDCP 2.2 is in place and HDCP 2.2 is going to be a real pain in the ass to use.

Reading between the lines, it sounds like Sony has probably added HDCP 2.2 to their HDMI 1.4 ports on their 4K flat panel UHD TVs (retrofits and new shipping models) and their 4K player.

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post #108 of 146 Old 08-12-2013, 06:58 AM
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Originally Posted by hifiaudio2 View Post

I still wonder who tries to make copies by reading the video from the HDMI outputs. And most "pirates" couldn't care less if the original video was in 4k or 1080p or whatever... it ends up on some torrent site ripped to 1/10th its original size and played back on a college kids iPhone or iPad.

Studios would do themselves a service by just making the content available at good prices and letting the vast majority that would rather pay for it than go find some seedy way to save a few bucks watch it without a retinal scan.

Their magical 4k master copy means nothing to most of the movie watching world.

I wish someone can show them an actual pirate site, then they will see no one downloads 40GB blu ray rips. Then, they might be able to put two and two together to see that no one will download 4K movies. Those people are more concerned with fast downloads to watch on their laptops, tablets, or phones
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post #109 of 146 Old 08-12-2013, 07:12 AM
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You have to wonder what the combined amount of money spent on movie copy protection is, and if they had instead invested that elsewhere where the companies and the technology would now be.

And don't forget to add in all the man hours of tech support and / or returns that have been generated over the years from HDCP handshaking failures that would not have been an issue.
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post #110 of 146 Old 08-12-2013, 07:16 AM
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HDCP has caused so many issues for customers. They should have done is a different way.
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post #111 of 146 Old 08-12-2013, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hifiaudio2 View Post

You have to wonder what the combined amount of money spent on movie copy protection is, and if they had instead invested that elsewhere where the companies and the technology would now be.

Well there'd be a lot more companies doing what Kaleidescape does, selling lots of products and employing lots of people.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #112 of 146 Old 08-14-2013, 06:55 AM
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Hi,

informations (I hope reliable or it's "rumors") on the Range JVC 2014 :

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1486011/new-range-jvc-2014
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post #113 of 146 Old 08-14-2013, 02:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi,

informations (I hope reliable or it's "rumors") on the Range JVC 2014 :

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1486011/new-range-jvc-2014

From the info posted by the dealer's site in Italy, it appears JVC will offer updated e-shift models with 4K inputs using a single HDMI input for 4K at up to 30Hz (i.e. HDMI 1.4 limit) or using two HDMI ports to accept 4K @ 60 Hz. Looks like the new models also get an updated generation of DILA chips. Since the e-shift image has a max. of 4M discrete pixels it is not full resolution 4K UHD (i.e., its only 1/2 resolution) but is better than 1080p with its ~ 2 Mpixels (i.e., 1/4 the resolution of 4K UHD). So having the availability of a "4K lite" projectors with retail prices starting at around $5K seems to me to be a reasonable alternative that should be a strong competitor against the $3.5K to $7K 1080p projectors from other manufacturers and priced will under what a true native 4K UHD projector will be selling in 2014.

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post #114 of 146 Old 08-15-2013, 11:02 PM
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Hi,

always from this Italian website , the "name" of the new Sony 4K projector would be : VPL-VW500es (in the bottom of page) :

http://www.homecinemasolution.it/proiettori-home-cinema/sony/

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=fr&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.homecinemasolution.it%2Fproiettori-home-cinema%2Fsony%2F

"Sta arrivando il nuovo Videoproiettore dell'anno best buy, Sony HW55 E VW500es
Questi Proiettori saranno presto con recensiti test approfondito e saranno disponibili in anteprima Nazionale di tional nostre sedi perugia roma milano e napoli. "
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post #115 of 146 Old 08-15-2013, 11:46 PM
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VW500ES sounds just like a cheaper version of (big brother) 1000's.

[]s,
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post #116 of 146 Old 08-16-2013, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hifiaudio2 View Post

You have to wonder what the combined amount of money spent on movie copy protection is, and if they had instead invested that elsewhere where the companies and the technology would now be.

And don't forget to add in all the man hours of tech support and / or returns that have been generated over the years from HDCP handshaking failures that would not have been an issue.

The funny thing is that all this money spent has been wasted. The film companies just made things more difficult for consumers and have actually hurt their own sales. Easy is always better for the average consumer. It is also ironic that most of the copy protection schemes have been broken by hackers. It seems that the mouse is faster than the cat.
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post #117 of 146 Old 08-16-2013, 11:55 AM
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I don't even think its MOST... I think ALL of them have been broken...and very quickly after being released. I guess that's why these super smart guys went and spent way MORE money and time to come up with the next retinal scan/blood type checks for 4k...because that will REALLY make paying consumers happy, and might take hackers three weeks instead of two to crack.

The studios refuse to learn from their mistakes. Cant seem to figure out why so many of them are in the red. rolleyes.gif
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post #118 of 146 Old 08-18-2013, 07:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Just a FYI - It's my understanding that Sony is having a closed door, by invitation only, event this week in CA to show their new home theater projectors to the press. This is a CEDIA preview event and everyone has to sign a NDA, so there should be no leaks in advance of CEDIA. As a result some web sites should have their stories on the new Sony projectors ready to publish as soon as the NDA expires, which I assume is at the start of CEDIA (or perhaps IFA?). Have any of our European members heard anything about a similar pre-IFA event in Europe (maybe that's the Sony press event someone said is planned for a couple of days before the IFA exhibits open up)?



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post #119 of 146 Old 08-18-2013, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

I certainly would expect a lot of movies, including a typical 2 hour 2D movie shot at 24 fps, could be accommodated in 4K at 10-bit (or maybe even 12-bit) color depth on a 2-layer BD using HEVC. This would be especially true if they were to support use of the extended length BD format that allows up to 66GB on a 2-layer disc. However, I do expect a role for 4-layer BDs for longer movies, some 3Ds, for movies at 48fps or 60fps, and when the studio wants to put extras on the same disc as the movie.

Thanks for the perspective Ron ;personally I only mentioned higher frame rates especially for 3d that James Cameron espouses. better than the 60p for hdmi2.0 mooted over in the RED forum I read
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?101540-Do-not-buy-a-4k-monitor-or-TV-until-HDMI-2-0-comes-out-this-year!&p=1218343&viewfull=1#post1218343

Something like 120hz for 4k3d would be nicer for motion ..Its all up in the air for the new bd standard it seems ; the bandwidth required for new audio codecs like auro3d [ while off topic ] makes me wonder how big these 3d bd's will be ; interesting post from djnickuk that implies the new codecs are getting closer - of course chipset manufacture takes time cool.gif
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1444649/official-datasat-rs20i-thread-setup-tips-questions-general-info-etc/690#post_23496215
I can see a big use for bandwidth hungry pcm in the coming discs ; this vvv is from an auro3d whitepaper ; lpcm is de rigeur for the mixdown algorithms so no more compressed ddtruehd or dtshdma ; anyway Ime off on a tangent again no surprise biggrin.gif
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18 tracks of PCM audio can be encoded into a 5.1 PCM-stream
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post #120 of 146 Old 08-18-2013, 02:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by cwt View Post

Thanks for the perspective Ron ;personally I only mentioned higher frame rates especially for 3d that James Cameron espouses. better than the 60p for hdmi2.0 mooted over in the RED forum I read
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?101540-Do-not-buy-a-4k-monitor-or-TV-until-HDMI-2-0-comes-out-this-year!&p=1218343&viewfull=1#post1218343

Something like 120hz for 4k3d would be nicer for motion ..Its all up in the air for the new bd standard it seems ; the bandwidth required for new audio codecs like auro3d [ while off topic ] makes me wonder how big these 3d bd's will be ; interesting post from djnickuk that implies the new codecs are getting closer - of course chipset manufacture takes time cool.gif
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1444649/official-datasat-rs20i-thread-setup-tips-questions-general-info-etc/690#post_23496215
I can see a big use for bandwidth hungry pcm in the coming discs ; this vvv is from an auro3d whitepaper ; lpcm is de rigeur for the mixdown algorithms so no more compressed ddtruehd or dtshdma ; anyway Ime off on a tangent again no surprise biggrin.gif


Based on two or three reports, it does appear the technical details of HDMI 2.0 have been agreed by the HDMI forum technical working group, but the new standard has not yet been officially announced nor released. I've signed up for a web seminar about HMDI 2.0 scheduled for Aug. 28, so maybe there will be some answers coming soon at to its capabilities. The next generation of Blu-ray is a different story as the spec. is not expected to be complete before very late this year or early in 2014. I really do expect to see support for up to 4-layer discs as well as 2-layer discs (with up to 66 GB capacity on the 2-layer discs), as many BD drives already support these capabilities as part of the BD-XL standard.

As for the audio we'll have to wait and see what the new BD standard supports. In any case, once we go beyond 7.1 channels, at least in the long term, I don't really see BDs needing to settle for bandwidth hungry uncompressed PCM. Rather, a lossless compression scheme would offer the same audio quality and require less storage space on the disc (same reasons why the studios prefer to use DTS HD-MA or Dolby TrueHD instead of PCM when you are talking about 5.1 or 7.1 audio channels).


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Ron Jones
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