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post #31 of 57 Old 08-26-2013, 05:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks all. Well, back to the drawing board then.
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post #32 of 57 Old 08-26-2013, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by youngmic View Post

Thanks all. Well, back to the drawing board then.

Don't dispair! The HP is a great screen if you can manage to have the projector project just over the viewers' heads. A bright, uniform, and very smooth high quality pic. One of the fun parts of setting up an HT is working out all the possibles scenarios and choosing the plan that best fits your desires and room situation.
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post #33 of 57 Old 08-26-2013, 06:12 PM
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Yeah, if you don't have a wide viewing angle between your seats a high power screen works quite well. The HP screen works best within a 30 degree horizontal viewing plane. I've got one of their grey HP screens and Iove the image quality I get from it. If you can't make a unity gain screen work this is a great alternative.

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post #34 of 57 Old 08-26-2013, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

Yeah, if you don't have a wide viewing angle between your seats a high power screen works quite well. The HP screen works best within a 30 degree horizontal viewing plane. I've got one of their grey HP screens and Iove the image quality I get from it. If you can't make a unity gain screen work this is a great alternative.

The High Contrast HP2.4 does indeed have quite a narrow viewing angle; I tried out test samples with it found it too narrow. The regular HP 2.4, though, is fine for any seats within the L and R edges of the screen. I went with it, and have been very pleased. In a HT with good light control, there's really no need to go with the High Contrast version (IMHO).
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post #35 of 57 Old 08-27-2013, 12:17 PM
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My primary viewing distance will be 14 ft, which flies against the recommendations I’ve read for the screen size I’m considering – a 176” diagonal 2.35:1, 1.1 gain screen from Elite. My throw distance will be around 18 feet. According to the screen calculator on Projector Central, I should get about 13fl from this setup.

Your viewing distance is fine, it's the "recommendations" that are inaccurate. Truthfully, it is maybe a starting place, but some prefer big, some high, some low, etc... so instead of blindly saying 1.4x is recommended, it should be a range of 1.0-1.6x.

Before building my theater, I knew where the main row had to be (side surrounds prewired during house construction, and to leave room for a 3rd row), so we put the projector on a stepstool and projected onto white cloth on the cream wall. Did not measure anything - just played around with different sizes and locations. When we found what we liked (couple weeks), I measured - a 133" screen, only about 18" off the ground (9 foot ceilings) - and we sit 131" (11 feet) from it... so 1.0x. Pictures linked in my signature.

This was 8 years ago, with a 720p Panny projector (that is getting replaced ASAP, after CEDIA results; I can't watch it anymore, kids don't care).

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post #36 of 57 Old 08-28-2013, 07:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks guys. A few more questions...

I'm going for a completely darkened room. What is the min acceptable FL? Was targeting 12 - 14. Any ref points to help me correlate these nos?

Is there a formula to calculate the effect of throw on FL at the screen?

Is there a predictable decay rate for bulbs? What percent total lumens will they retain at or near end of life?

Am leaning toward Sony HW50 at this point for max lumens. Thinking of buying some 1.1 gain material from Carl's to get my feet wet.
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post #37 of 57 Old 08-28-2013, 08:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by youngmic View Post

Thanks guys. A few more questions...

I'm going for a completely darkened room. What is the min acceptable FL? Was targeting 12 - 14. Any ref points to help me correlate these nos?

Is there a formula to calculate the effect of throw on FL at the screen?

Is there a predictable decay rate for bulbs? What percent total lumens will they retain at or near end of life?

Am leaning toward Sony HW50 at this point for max lumens. Thinking of buying some 1.1 gain material from Carl's to get my feet wet.


12 to 16 is the recommended screen brightness, but you should have a starting point higher than that, so that once the lamp dims, you are able to maintain the 12 to 16 FL.

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post #38 of 57 Old 08-28-2013, 09:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Mike. How much dimming should I expect over time? Is there an average percentage?
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post #39 of 57 Old 08-28-2013, 09:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by youngmic View Post

Thanks guys. A few more questions...

I'm going for a completely darkened room. What is the min acceptable FL? Was targeting 12 - 14. Any ref points to help me correlate these nos?

Is there a formula to calculate the effect of throw on FL at the screen?

Is there a predictable decay rate for bulbs? What percent total lumens will they retain at or near end of life?

Am leaning toward Sony HW50 at this point for max lumens. Thinking of buying some 1.1 gain material from Carl's to get my feet wet.

If you really go with the screen size you noted above, I still think you will be in trouble with a 1.1 gain screen. I think you should really read up about the Dalite hp screen to see if it can work for you.

Re your questions:

lumen output vs throw distance is very projector dependent; by a value of 30% less lumens at max distance, compared to min distance, is typical.

lamp decay is also quite variable, but is probably down to 50% at 1000 hrs.
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post #40 of 57 Old 08-28-2013, 09:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Haven't settled on screen size but understand that I can't go that big. Thanks for all the info. It's very helpful.
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post #41 of 57 Old 08-29-2013, 05:54 AM
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lumen output vs throw distance is very projector dependent; by a value of 30% less lumens at max distance, compared to min distance, is typical.

lamp decay is also quite variable, but is probably down to 50% at 1000 hrs.[/quote]

50% at 1000 hrs is basically 41 days if you watching it 24 hrs a day, very interesting to think of it. I better stop watching every crap on my HW50 or else I would be burning lamps like crazy.

At what % age does it become too dim for a pleasant viewing?
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post #42 of 57 Old 08-29-2013, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by booga24 View Post


At what % age does it become too dim for a pleasant viewing?

This is of course ver dependent on the person, projector, .... . I always start, with a new lamp, with the pj in low lamp mode, and when it dims to the point that I'm not satisfied, I switch to high lamp and go until I'm not satisfied with it; then it's time for a new lamp.

I think I usually get ~ 1000 hrs in the low lamp, and then maybe another 1000 in high lamp, but this is a very rough estimate.
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post #43 of 57 Old 08-29-2013, 01:58 PM
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The average is about 35% at 1000 hours, with some projectors being as low as 15% to 20%, and some being as high as 50% to 75% loss. Most newer projectors will still have more than 50% of their brightness at 1000 hours though. In my experience, most projectors will be between 25% to 45% loss at 1000 hours if you run them in ECO, not counting lamps that dim too fast (like a defective JVC lamp).

Lamp ratings also mean diddly squat. My Viewsonic Pro8200 lamp was rated at 5000 hours, but at 3500 hours it is DIMMER than my Benq w7000 lamp which has about 2500 hours on it (technically the end of life of the lamp). The w7000 lamp is rated half the Viewsonic Lamp (2500 vs. 5000 both in eco), yet the Benq lamp dimmed at a slightly slower rate.

Too dim just depends how bright you start out and how lucky you get, for my Benq w7000, I started out at about 35fL to 40fL which was uncomfortable to watch in the dark but used the manual IRIS mode to tame it down until the lamp wore in. After 2500 hours on the Benq w7000, I am at about 20 to 25 fL now which is about 60% of the original lumens. So the w7000 lamp was rated at 2500 hours, yet at 2500 hours I still have 60% of the lamp's brightness left.

On my JVC RS-45 lamp, the first bulb dimmed to about 50% or maybe slightly worse around 1000 hours, then it exploded at 1500 hours. On my second RS-45 lamp, it dimmed 40% in only 350 hours (defective), and I should probably replace it soon so it does not also explode. On the Epson 5010 I used (though not at my own house), it had dimmed to about 50% of the original lamp at about 1500-1800 hours if I remember correctly.


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post #44 of 57 Old 08-29-2013, 02:10 PM
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You're certainly right, coderguy--these things are enormously variable.
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post #45 of 57 Old 08-29-2013, 02:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Coderguy, I just read your Top Projector Pick's article. It was extremely helpful. Looks like I'm leaning back toward JVC again...

Call me fickle, everyone does.

smile.gif
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post #46 of 57 Old 08-29-2013, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by youngmic View Post

Cool! Thanks for replying. smile.gif

I will have full light control. There are 2 windows but I will be installing heavy drapes or getting some blinds that allow be to totally black out the room. There is roughly 14' from the back wall to the front wall and I plan to use every inch. I figure I'll have about a 12' throw which should give me around 110" of picture width (right?). I'll be painting the walls and ceiling a neutral color - TBD.

I mostly view BD/1080p Apple TV movies - drama, Sci Fi, action. Don't plan on Sports or much TV faire on this setup. Concerts are a definite yes though.

Which JVC do you have? Contrast and black level are key to me as well. That's what sold me on the Kuro Elite. (Well, that and the color accuracy).

Bottom line is that I'm mostly a film and concerts guy.

if your main viewing content is films and concerts and you're used to a Kuro, the JVC makes sense. I use my RS55 primarily for films and it kills with stage concerts where there is fast, dramatic changes in APL that can cause a fit with some DI's.

The decision between the X35 / X55 is mainly the e-shift process. If you have a nice sized screen + close seating distance, the e-shift makes a nice visual improvement. Otherwise the X35 is relatively inexpensive and one of the better bangs for the buck in this price range.
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post #47 of 57 Old 08-29-2013, 02:30 PM - Thread Starter
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OK, here's a wacky idea. Have you ever heard of anyone mounting their projector on rails and building a masking system to allow for different sizes/formats and throw distance to compensate for bulb degradation and/or differences in content requirements? Was thinking that as the bulb aged, you could shorten the throw and open the lens, or you could shorten the throw and reduce the screen size. Probably not worth it....
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post #48 of 57 Old 08-29-2013, 07:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by booga24 View Post

50% at 1000 hrs is basically 41 days if you watching it 24 hrs a day, very interesting to think of it. I better stop watching every crap on my HW50 or else I would be burning lamps like crazy.

IMO that's completely unrealistic, and doesn't give a reasonable picture. 1000 hours will last a year if you watch 2.5 hrs per day. I think that's a bit more "reasonable". At least IMO, projectors are best for "serious" viewing, ie sitting down and really watching what's on. You can only do so much of that a day. I probably put 2.5-3 hrs a day average and my even though I replace my lamps at relatively few hours compared to what it seems a lot of folks here think they should be able to get, I still go through less than 1 lamp per year, which is a pretty good value (a buck or two a day).
Quote:
At what % age does it become too dim for a pleasant viewing?

That's impossible to answer, as has been mentioned above, it depends on the projector (how quickly lamps dim), the viewer (how dim they accept), but probably more importantly it depends on how how bright you setup was to begin with, which depends on how bright the projector was, the size of the screen, and the gain of the screen.
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OK, here's a wacky idea. Have you ever heard of anyone mounting their projector on rails and building a masking system to allow for different sizes/formats and throw distance to compensate for bulb degradation and/or differences in content requirements? Was thinking that as the bulb aged, you could shorten the throw and open the lens, or you could shorten the throw and reduce the screen size. Probably not worth it....

Rich here has a variable size setup that he zooms in/out, but that's for format/viewing preferences rather than brightness.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #49 of 57 Old 08-29-2013, 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

The average is about 35% at 1000 hours, with some projectors being as low as 15% to 20%, and some being as high as 50% to 75% loss. Most newer projectors will still have more than 50% of their brightness at 1000 hours though. In my experience, most projectors will be between 25% to 45% loss at 1000 hours if you run them in ECO, not counting lamps that dim too fast (like a defective JVC lamp).

Lamp ratings also mean diddly squat. My Viewsonic Pro8200 lamp was rated at 5000 hours, but at 3500 hours it is DIMMER than my Benq w7000 lamp which has about 2500 hours on it (technically the end of life of the lamp). The w7000 lamp is rated half the Viewsonic Lamp (2500 vs. 5000 both in eco), yet the Benq lamp dimmed at a slightly slower rate.

Too dim just depends how bright you start out and how lucky you get, for my Benq w7000, I started out at about 35fL to 40fL which was uncomfortable to watch in the dark but used the manual IRIS mode to tame it down until the lamp wore in. After 2500 hours on the Benq w7000, I am at about 20 to 25 fL now which is about 60% of the original lumens. So the w7000 lamp was rated at 2500 hours, yet at 2500 hours I still have 60% of the lamp's brightness left.

On my JVC RS-45 lamp, the first bulb dimmed to about 50% or maybe slightly worse around 1000 hours, then it exploded at 1500 hours. On my second RS-45 lamp, it dimmed 40% in only 350 hours (defective), and I should probably replace it soon so it does not also explode. On the Epson 5010 I used (though not at my own house), it had dimmed to about 50% of the original lamp at about 1500-1800 hours if I remember correctly.

Wow, if I come over to watch on your projector, remind me to bring the sun block and dark shades. smile.gif

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post #50 of 57 Old 08-29-2013, 09:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

if your main viewing content is films and concerts and you're used to a Kuro, the JVC makes sense. I use my RS55 primarily for films and it kills with stage concerts where there is fast, dramatic changes in APL that can cause a fit with some DI's.

The decision between the X35 / X55 is mainly the e-shift process. If you have a nice sized screen + close seating distance, the e-shift makes a nice visual improvement. Otherwise the X35 is relatively inexpensive and one of the better bangs for the buck in this price range.

Good post and I agree. smile.gif

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post #51 of 57 Old 09-06-2013, 11:06 AM
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Thanks for the welcome. I've been a follower of this forum for 7 years back when i built my first media room and got sound advice from the experts here on equipment to use. My first purchased pj the Panny ae900u recently has broken out with hives. By hives i mean equidistant red vertical lines encompassing the whole screen. I searched here for advice and took one of the home remedy steps to no avail so am thinking it's time to purchase and upgrade to 1080p and 3D if available.

As said in the post above I've been looking at the affordable ($1k) BenQ1070 and the new Epson 2030.

My theater has a Carada precision 116" fixed mounted screen and the Panny is ceiling mounted approx 13-13.5 feet from the screen. The Panasonic was quite adjustable to fit the picture on the entire screen from that distance using its zoom and lens shift and am being told that this is due to it's zoom capability which is higher than that on the BenQ or Epson models above that i'm looking at. Is that the case?

I don't want to have to buy a new larger screen or remount the pj closer to my screen if i don't have to. Any thoughts on a pj i can use?

Anyway, glad to be welcome here and look to exchange ideas and seek knowledge.

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post #52 of 57 Old 09-12-2013, 08:01 AM - Thread Starter
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I've had an Epson 3020 on loan for a couple of weeks. Seems like a pretty good projector of the money. I'm assuming that the light output is similar to the Epson 5020. Is this the case? Does it have roughly the same calibrated lumens in best picture mode? I've been using the Cinema mode. Is this close to what the calibrated output would be?

I ask because I have been surprised at how big I can get the image size and still be relatively pleased with the quality. I'm projecting on a 15ft wide white wall and have watched movies with 12 -13 ft wide images (2.4:1). However, based on what I've learned here, this should result in an output of less than 7 ftL. This is based on my understanding that the 5020's calibrated lumens is 875.

This is in completely dark room with white walls and ceiling. The reflections off the walls and ceiling are significant, clearly affecting contrast. And yet, it is still surprisingly good.

All this makes me question the min. 12FtL recommendation for home theater. Or am I missing something here? Is the output on the 3020 significantly higher in Cinema mode?

Thanks,
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post #53 of 57 Old 09-12-2013, 11:03 AM - Thread Starter
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OK. Now I really am confused. According to Projector Central reviews, the calibrated lumens of the 5020 is 678 while the 3020 is 1362. While that certainly explains why I'm getting the results I'm seeing at home - if I calculate correctly, about 13 ftl at 13ft wide image w/17ft throw - it confuses me in regard to the output of the 5020. Is the greater output on the 3020 at the cost of contrast and black floor? Because while it's ok, it certainly doesn't shine there. The 3020 is clearly throwing a lot of light even with no input. I assume the 5020 would be much much closer to black with no input or with a totally black frame.
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post #54 of 57 Old 09-12-2013, 01:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Sorry....that should have been Projectorreviews.com, not Projector Central.

Argh...I assumed that the 3020 would be outperformed in every aspect by the projector's I've been considering. It's going to be hard to go to a smaller image. I'm actually contemplating going with a 3020 now. Can I live with the black level? I guess that's the question.
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post #55 of 57 Old 09-15-2013, 10:03 PM - Thread Starter
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So I put up a temp screen using Carl's Place Pro White 1.1 gain material. The screen is 71 x 126. The 3020 is about 17' from the screen. I figure I'm seeing about 20 Ftl. It really is a nice bright image. If it wasn't for the blacks and lack of lens shift, I'd be much more tempted to stay with this. But I think I'm going to go with the Sony HW50 (told you I was fickle).

Question, having used the brighter 3020 for several weeks, am I going to have a time adjusting to the lower lumens on the Sony? How much difference will I see? I'm assuming that there will be substantial and discernible improvement in black level, motion, and sharpness. Am I correct in that assumption?
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post #56 of 57 Old 09-16-2013, 07:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by youngmic View Post

So I put up a temp screen using Carl's Place Pro White 1.1 gain material. The screen is 71 x 126. The 3020 is about 17' from the screen. I figure I'm seeing about 20 Ftl. It really is a nice bright image. If it wasn't for the blacks and lack of lens shift, I'd be much more tempted to stay with this. But I think I'm going to go with the Sony HW50 (told you I was fickle).

Question, having used the brighter 3020 for several weeks, am I going to have a time adjusting to the lower lumens on the Sony? How much difference will I see? I'm assuming that there will be substantial and discernible improvement in black level, motion, and sharpness. Am I correct in that assumption?

If that material is 1.1 gain, then you should be able to get 18/19 FL in high lamp. So close to the same brightness, much better color, sharpness and contrast. Looks like a much better solution to me.

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post #57 of 57 Old 09-16-2013, 03:17 PM
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Wow, if I come over to watch on your projector, remind me to bring the sun block and dark shades. smile.gif

The w7000 has an aperture like the JVC (though Benq's is only accessible from the service menu), so I just set it darker at first, that's how. Both the projectors I generally watch in here have Irises, except the Viewsonic, but that is another room. I had the Epson in here briefly when I borrowed it, but it's best mode is so low that it didn't look too bright either. I also have an ND filter, but haven't used it in a while.


Quick and Easy Shelf Mount Method for both one projector or dual stacks

Web Calculator v023 & v025
- Quick Peak at the new upcoming calculator
**Current Projector Calculator** -- http://www.eliteprojectorcalculator.com

Coder's Top Projector Picks of 2012 --http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread....

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