Seeking Projector Advice - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 57 Old 08-03-2013, 03:35 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
youngmic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 37
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Total projector nube looking for selection advice. My current screen is a Pioneer Elite Kuro PRO 111FD. I still love this set...still the best picture I've seen (although haven't shopped in awhile). But know I want to go big and have been shopping for projectors. I've looked at the Epson 5020, the Sony VPL-HW30ES, the JVC DLA-X55R and DLA-X35R, and the Runco LS-3. Unfortunately, the conditions under which I reviewed each varied and (barring one) were far from ideal. Additionally, all except for two were on different screens. To my knowledge, none had been calibrated. I was primarily looking at color fidelity (neutrality and natural skin tones, black level, etc.). My "gut" ranking is as follows:

1. Runco LS-3
2. JVC DLA-X55R
3. JVC DLA-X35R
4. Sony VPL-HW30ES
5. Epson 5020

The DLA-X55R was seen under the best conditions in a light controlled room on a very high end screen. The Runco and the JVC DLA-X35R were seen in a room with low ambient light on the same perforated screen. When comparing the X35R and the LS-3 in those conditions, the Runco's color blew me away compared to the JVC. The JVC seemed overly contrasty, saturated, and had too much red. It's hard to judge the X55R against either because it was in a different room.

I like the idea of a Runco, but was also kind of wanting 3D capability. I'm also intrigued by the semi-4K capabilities of the X55R (although that would be easily sacrificed if the X35R is of the same picture quality). Additionally, there seems to be little press around Runco compared to the offerings from Epson, JVC, and Sony - each having their share of advocates and critics. My budget is definitely in the sub $10K range so the 3 chip DLP Runco are unfortunately out of the question.

I am also concerned that the LS-3 is basically Runco's second to lowest projector offering (at least this seems to be the case). Would I be getting something built and branded to generate consumer sales? Am I better going with the higher tier from JVC than the bottom of the ladder from Runco? What should I take into consideration between these two?

Finally, would the JVC's, once calibrated, please me from an image fidelity standpoint as much as the Runco?

I know there's a lot of subjectivity here but I find this choice very difficult and would appreciate any input you folks would be willing to offer. Buying the Kuro was easy - it was the best. Unfortunately, the best here is beyond my budget. So I need to find out as much about trade offs between options as possible.

Thanks,
Mike
youngmic is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 57 Old 08-03-2013, 03:45 PM
AVS Special Member
 
zombie10k's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,371
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 88 Post(s)
Liked: 262
it's hard to compare if you haven't seen them all in the same room / same screen with a color calibration on each model. the Runco is going to have close to perfect color out of the box. The JVC's and others will benefit from a color calibration.

What is your room like? Do you have full light control? Light ceiling / walls?

What kind of content do you view most? BD? HDTV, Sports?

each projector listed above has unique pros / cons. I use a JVC for my 2D BD's because I like best in class native contrast and a low black floor. My primary viewing is sci-fi, action movies and stage concerts.

let us know more, it will be easier to make recommendations.
zombie10k is online now  
post #3 of 57 Old 08-03-2013, 03:52 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
youngmic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 37
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Cool! Thanks for replying. smile.gif

I will have full light control. There are 2 windows but I will be installing heavy drapes or getting some blinds that allow be to totally black out the room. There is roughly 14' from the back wall to the front wall and I plan to use every inch. I figure I'll have about a 12' throw which should give me around 110" of picture width (right?). I'll be painting the walls and ceiling a neutral color - TBD.

I mostly view BD/1080p Apple TV movies - drama, Sci Fi, action. Don't plan on Sports or much TV faire on this setup. Concerts are a definite yes though.

Which JVC do you have? Contrast and black level are key to me as well. That's what sold me on the Kuro Elite. (Well, that and the color accuracy).

Bottom line is that I'm mostly a film and concerts guy.
youngmic is offline  
post #4 of 57 Old 08-03-2013, 03:59 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Seegs108's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Schenectady, New York
Posts: 3,754
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 104 Post(s)
Liked: 144
The LS-3 is a fantastic choice. I own the Planar PD8150, which is what the Runco LS-5 used to be sold as. The only area that the JVC trumps the Runco is in black level and contrast. If you aren't interested in the best contrast performance the LS-3 would be a wise choice. The LS-3 will give you one of the cleanest, sharpest, color correct images out there. It's one of the projectors that needs no fine tuning. All you'd need to do is mount it, set the brightness and contrast and you're set to go. Runco takes care of the rest for you.
Seegs108 is online now  
post #5 of 57 Old 08-03-2013, 04:19 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
AV Science Sales 5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: A beautiful view of a lake
Posts: 7,242
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 143 Post(s)
Liked: 351
What gain is the screen going to be? Keep in mind the JVC x35 is about 1/3rd brighter in calibrated best image mode, compared to the LS-3. A 110" wide screen is going to need some lumens, some gain or both.

Mike Garrett, AV Science Sales
Call Me: 585-671-2968
Email Me: Mike@AVScience.com

Brands we sell: http://avscience.com/brands/

 

Call for B-stock projectors

Stewart, Seymour, SE, SI & many more.
Klipsch, RBH, Martin Logan, Triad, Atlantic Technology, MK Sound, BG Radia, SVS & Def Tech.

AV Science Sales 5 is offline  
post #6 of 57 Old 08-03-2013, 04:24 PM
AVS Special Member
 
zombie10k's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,371
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 88 Post(s)
Liked: 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by youngmic View Post

Cool! Thanks for replying. smile.gif

I will have full light control. There are 2 windows but I will be installing heavy drapes or getting some blinds that allow be to totally black out the room. There is roughly 14' from the back wall to the front wall and I plan to use every inch. I figure I'll have about a 12' throw which should give me around 110" of picture width (right?). I'll be painting the walls and ceiling a neutral color - TBD.

I mostly view BD/1080p Apple TV movies - drama, Sci Fi, action. Don't plan on Sports or much TV faire on this setup. Concerts are a definite yes though.

Which JVC do you have? Contrast and black level are key to me as well. That's what sold me on the Kuro Elite. (Well, that and the color accuracy).

Bottom line is that I'm mostly a film and concerts guy.

I have last year year's RS55 model, but have calibrated a number of this year's RS46's and RS4810's. Both are great models for their price point. The e-shift is a nice feature. You have to see it on a top shelf BD like Skyfall, it makes a nice difference vs. when it's turned off.

coming from a Kuro, the JVC is about as close as you get get for contrast and black level. The key with all the projectors for maximum PQ is controlling the light in the room and also the reflections against the screen. Depending on the setup (proximity of the screen to the ceiling and adjacent walls), light colored ceilings and walls can reverse the best feature of the JVC. I recently blacked out my ceiling a few months ago and it made a huge difference.

I've calibrated a number of Kuro's, they are great screens, but it would be hard to go back to such a small size. My current screen is 142" 16:9 and would have gone larger if I had the room.

I watch alot of concerts on the JVC, they look amazing. Most recent was 'The Cure - Triology'. Dark and gritty, the JVC can easily handle a low APL concert like this. Some of the others have a less than convincing black floor. it really depends on what's important for your viewing preferences.
zombie10k is online now  
post #7 of 57 Old 08-03-2013, 04:37 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
youngmic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 37
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

What gain is the screen going to be? Keep in mind the JVC x35 is about 1/3rd brighter in calibrated best image mode. A 110" wide screen is going to need some lumens, some gain or both.

That's a great question! smile.gif From what I've read, it seems like with my preference for neutrality I'd appreciate a white screen with 1.0 gain. Would the JVC be be OK for that?

I also just noticed the JVC has a throw ratio that goes to 2.8 vs the Runco's 2.4. The Runco is also longer than the JVC by 2". I can get 10" more screen width with the JVC in my room. Just remeasured and the walls are actually 14' 6.25". The JVC is 18.5" long. Looks like I'll need about 4 or 5" behind for HDMI, power, and RF emitter (sound right). So that's basically 2', leaving 12.5 feet. That's a 107" wide image I think.
youngmic is offline  
post #8 of 57 Old 08-03-2013, 04:56 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
youngmic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 37
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

I have last year year's RS55 model, but have calibrated a number of this year's RS46's and RS4810's. Both are great models for their price point. The e-shift is a nice feature. You have to see it on a top shelf BD like Skyfall, it makes a nice difference vs. when it's turned off.

coming from a Kuro, the JVC is about as close as you get get for contrast and black level. The key with all the projectors for maximum PQ is controlling the light in the room and also the reflections against the screen. Depending on the setup (proximity of the screen to the ceiling and adjacent walls), light colored ceilings and walls can reverse the best feature of the JVC. I recently blacked out my ceiling a few months ago and it made a huge difference.

I've calibrated a number of Kuro's, they are great screens, but it would be hard to go back to such a small size. My current screen is 142" 16:9 and would have gone larger if I had the room.

I watch alot of concerts on the JVC, they look amazing. Most recent was 'The Cure - Triology'. Dark and gritty, the JVC can easily handle a low APL concert like this. Some of the others have a less than convincing black floor. it really depends on what's important for your viewing preferences.

Ceiling is 95" high. I'm probably looking at a 60" high screen. I'll need room below for center speaker and audio gear, leaving about 75". So ceiling will be about 15" above the screen. Would rather not go 100% black but will do what is necessary to ensure best quality. Would a deep neutral, non-reflective color suffice?

Walls are several feet away on both sides. The room is not 100% ideal for a theater (currently has wet bar that breaks up the long dimension so am setting across short dimension - room is 14 x 22). Was thinking neutral gray for walls and darker gray for ceiling - that or brownish grey.

What is APL? Given your screen size, I suppose the answer to my previous question is a definite "yes". smile.gif

Thanks so much for all of this great info. Keep it coming!

Mike
youngmic is offline  
post #9 of 57 Old 08-03-2013, 05:16 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
AV Science Sales 5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: A beautiful view of a lake
Posts: 7,242
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 143 Post(s)
Liked: 351
Quote:
Originally Posted by youngmic View Post

That's a great question! smile.gif From what I've read, it seems like with my preference for neutrality I'd appreciate a white screen with 1.0 gain. Would the JVC be be OK for that?

I also just noticed the JVC has a throw ratio that goes to 2.8 vs the Runco's 2.4. The Runco is also longer than the JVC by 2". I can get 10" more screen width with the JVC in my room. Just remeasured and the walls are actually 14' 6.25". The JVC is 18.5" long. Looks like I'll need about 4 or 5" behind for HDMI, power, and RF emitter (sound right). So that's basically 2', leaving 12.5 feet. That's a 107" wide image I think.

Actually you could go 110" wide from 12.5'. With 1.0 gain, that is as large as I would go, using the JVC. Yes, 24" for the JVC is correct. Sent you a PM.

Mike Garrett, AV Science Sales
Call Me: 585-671-2968
Email Me: Mike@AVScience.com

Brands we sell: http://avscience.com/brands/

 

Call for B-stock projectors

Stewart, Seymour, SE, SI & many more.
Klipsch, RBH, Martin Logan, Triad, Atlantic Technology, MK Sound, BG Radia, SVS & Def Tech.

AV Science Sales 5 is offline  
post #10 of 57 Old 08-03-2013, 05:25 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Seegs108's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Schenectady, New York
Posts: 3,754
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 104 Post(s)
Liked: 144
The Runco is only longer if you keep the cable cover attached. Without it attached it's much shallower than the JVC. The Runco also has a 1.56-1.84 lens throw option. JVC owns darker content and the Runco owns brighter material due to the more than double ANSI contrast over JVC.
Seegs108 is online now  
post #11 of 57 Old 08-03-2013, 06:36 PM
AVS Special Member
 
zombie10k's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,371
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 88 Post(s)
Liked: 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by youngmic View Post

Ceiling is 95" high. I'm probably looking at a 60" high screen. I'll need room below for center speaker and audio gear, leaving about 75". So ceiling will be about 15" above the screen. Would rather not go 100% black but will do what is necessary to ensure best quality. Would a deep neutral, non-reflective color suffice?

Walls are several feet away on both sides. The room is not 100% ideal for a theater (currently has wet bar that breaks up the long dimension so am setting across short dimension - room is 14 x 22). Was thinking neutral gray for walls and darker gray for ceiling - that or brownish grey.

What is APL? Given your screen size, I suppose the answer to my previous question is a definite "yes". smile.gif

Thanks so much for all of this great info. Keep it coming!

Mike

anything other than white would help for certain. You can always setup the projector and screen and see how it looks before making any changes in color.

To describe low APL scenes, think of your primarily dark scene in a sci-fi movie. Underworld is a good example, 1/2 the movie takes place in low light. Dark stage concerts, etc. This is where the JVC excels in the same way as the Kuro vs. it's competition at the time. I find movies and concerts very engaging when the black floor is nice and convincing during dark scenes.

The e-shift does more than just eliminate the pixel structure. It increase the pixel density of the image with the overlapping 1080P images. This can give a perceived increase in contrast and overall sharpness without looking over-processed. It looks best with top quality BD's like SkyFall, Dark Knight Rises, etc.

These are just screenshots, but I think the e-shift setup looks great when you see it in person.

skyfall_jvc.jpg

skyfall_jvc1.jpg

skyfall_jvc2.jpg

The last 20 minutes of this movie is very dark during the battle inside SkyFall.

skyfall_jvc3.jpg
zombie10k is online now  
post #12 of 57 Old 08-03-2013, 06:43 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
youngmic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 37
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
These are shots from your theater screen?
youngmic is offline  
post #13 of 57 Old 08-03-2013, 06:53 PM
AVS Special Member
 
zombie10k's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,371
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 88 Post(s)
Liked: 262
Yes, my current setup has a 142" 16:9 Dalite 'High Power' screen (2.8 gain).

This is an in-progress shot as I was blacking out my ceiling. the screen is quite large and very close to the ceiling. The white was reflecting the light back onto the screen washing out some of the night scenes.

This is right before I finished blacking out the grid with black velvet material. Overall a huge impact during dark scenes and now the JVC looks even better than it did before.

blackout.jpg

~20 feet behind the screen. Seating is at 14" where you can easily see e-shift on vs. off.

blackout1.jpg

you can't judge a projector by these screenshots but I can tell you all the 70mm IMAX shots look amazing in person.

JVC-mini3D10.jpg

JVC-mini3D7.jpg

JVC-mini3D4.jpg

JVC-mini3D11.jpg
zombie10k is online now  
post #14 of 57 Old 08-03-2013, 07:10 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
youngmic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 37
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I believe you. smile.gif
youngmic is offline  
post #15 of 57 Old 08-03-2013, 07:41 PM
AVS Special Member
 
fierce_gt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,212
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 242 Post(s)
Liked: 570
I have no experience with the runco at all, never even seen one. so my responses aren't comparative. maybe the runco blows the jvc out of the water.

anyway, I bought a jvc x35 this year after getting a new plasma(Samsung f8500) and realizing that I could never watch a 'good' movie on my old projector again. I wanted a plasma-like experience on the big screen as well. one of things I was looking for was to get this without the use of an auto-iris. I find them super distracting and not that effective, so I wanted to either avoid it altogether, or find a projector that was still very good with it turned off. the Epson 5020 was the 'projector to beat' when I first starting looking. I was hoping to be well under 3k, heck, 1500 for a 3020 was a good starting point. but I realized what it would cost to get the blacks and native contrast I desired, and i'm super happy I bought the jvc x35.

imo, it is as good as my plasma. it would take very critical comparisons to determine which was better overall. something I don't really care to do. as it is right now, I simply love both of them.

with this in mind, i'm going to propose an alternative to you. save your money from the runco or x55, go with the cheaper x35. buy the best screen you can(since you'll only have to buy this once hopefully, unlike projectors that become outdated in a few years) and really get a feel for what you love, what you hate, and what you can live with. you may find that it's simply good enough in every way, and you can ride it out until it's obsolete. or you may find buying an inexpensive DLP for 3D use only is a better compliment. or grab a stand alone CMS if you just can't get the color the way you want it.

I know for me, the jvc is more than 'good enough' for all my needs. to be honest, the only thing that could make me upgrade at this point would be even deeper blacks. I could say that of every display I've ever seen since a crt though... and just to be clear, i'm not saying the x35 is perfect in all other aspects, though imo it is quite good.

anyway, I just think the jvc is a great starting point. it's not so expensive that it completely cripples your budget and forces you to skimp on the screen, or calibration, etc. but it's still very good, and shouldn't have you itching to upgrade immediately, or leaving it turned off in favor of using your plasma. it leaves you some money to add a second projector for 3D(if desired), or simply upgrade sooner(as we all know UHD projectors will hit the market at reasonable prices in a couple years at least). I know there's nothing worse than underbuying and then wishing you could just trade it in and pay the difference for the better product. but I honestly think (for my eyes at least), the jvc x35 is the most expensive projector i'd consider a 'good value'. i'm sure you can get better performance for a lot more money, but you're going to make trade-offs in performance on anything close to its price. ie, you might sacrifice contrast for motion handling, or blacks for 3D, etc. in order to get a projector that is noticeably better without making any trade-offs, you gotta dig pretty deep into your wallet.

ps, if I were you, i'd go back to the store that had the x35 and runco in the same room and do some serious a/b'ing with that setup. try different presets on the jvc as well, see if you can find something that looks better to you. from my research, it didn't seem like there was a big difference between the x35 and x55 in terms of blacks, contrast, color(although the lack of cms on the x35 could be an issue), or motion handling. the biggy was obviously the faux-k. so if you prefer the runco in that room for anything other than less pixel structure, good chance the x55 would also be beat.

Displays: Samsung PN64F8500/JVC X35
AVR: Pioneer VSX-1018AH, 5.1 audio
Sources: HTPC(Mediabrowser), PS3, XBOX360, Wii, Sony DVP-CX995V
Control: Harmony One
fierce_gt is online now  
post #16 of 57 Old 08-03-2013, 07:52 PM
AVS Special Member
 
zombie10k's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,371
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 88 Post(s)
Liked: 262
Considering it doesn't have a CMS, the color space on the RS46/X35 tracks wells with relatively low dE's, you really don't need an external processor for this projector. Grayscale and gamma are easily calibrated with basic calibration equipment.

RS46-cal3.jpg
zombie10k is online now  
post #17 of 57 Old 08-03-2013, 09:06 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
youngmic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 37
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

I have no experience with the runco at all, never even seen one. so my responses aren't comparative. maybe the runco blows the jvc out of the water.

anyway, I bought a jvc x35 this year after getting a new plasma(Samsung f8500) and realizing that I could never watch a 'good' movie on my old projector again. I wanted a plasma-like experience on the big screen as well. one of things I was looking for was to get this without the use of an auto-iris. I find them super distracting and not that effective, so I wanted to either avoid it altogether, or find a projector that was still very good with it turned off. the Epson 5020 was the 'projector to beat' when I first starting looking. I was hoping to be well under 3k, heck, 1500 for a 3020 was a good starting point. but I realized what it would cost to get the blacks and native contrast I desired, and i'm super happy I bought the jvc x35.

imo, it is as good as my plasma. it would take very critical comparisons to determine which was better overall. something I don't really care to do. as it is right now, I simply love both of them.

with this in mind, i'm going to propose an alternative to you. save your money from the runco or x55, go with the cheaper x35. buy the best screen you can(since you'll only have to buy this once hopefully, unlike projectors that become outdated in a few years) and really get a feel for what you love, what you hate, and what you can live with. you may find that it's simply good enough in every way, and you can ride it out until it's obsolete. or you may find buying an inexpensive DLP for 3D use only is a better compliment. or grab a stand alone CMS if you just can't get the color the way you want it.

I know for me, the jvc is more than 'good enough' for all my needs. to be honest, the only thing that could make me upgrade at this point would be even deeper blacks. I could say that of every display I've ever seen since a crt though... and just to be clear, i'm not saying the x35 is perfect in all other aspects, though imo it is quite good.

anyway, I just think the jvc is a great starting point. it's not so expensive that it completely cripples your budget and forces you to skimp on the screen, or calibration, etc. but it's still very good, and shouldn't have you itching to upgrade immediately, or leaving it turned off in favor of using your plasma. it leaves you some money to add a second projector for 3D(if desired), or simply upgrade sooner(as we all know UHD projectors will hit the market at reasonable prices in a couple years at least). I know there's nothing worse than underbuying and then wishing you could just trade it in and pay the difference for the better product. but I honestly think (for my eyes at least), the jvc x35 is the most expensive projector i'd consider a 'good value'. i'm sure you can get better performance for a lot more money, but you're going to make trade-offs in performance on anything close to its price. ie, you might sacrifice contrast for motion handling, or blacks for 3D, etc. in order to get a projector that is noticeably better without making any trade-offs, you gotta dig pretty deep into your wallet.

ps, if I were you, i'd go back to the store that had the x35 and runco in the same room and do some serious a/b'ing with that setup. try different presets on the jvc as well, see if you can find something that looks better to you. from my research, it didn't seem like there was a big difference between the x35 and x55 in terms of blacks, contrast, color(although the lack of cms on the x35 could be an issue), or motion handling. the biggy was obviously the faux-k. so if you prefer the runco in that room for anything other than less pixel structure, good chance the x55 would also be beat.

That is some excellent perspective. Thanks!
youngmic is offline  
post #18 of 57 Old 08-03-2013, 09:52 PM
AVS Special Member
 
fierce_gt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,212
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 242 Post(s)
Liked: 570
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

Considering it doesn't have a CMS, the color space on the RS46/X35 tracks wells with relatively low dE's, you really don't need an external processor for this projector. Grayscale and gamma are easily calibrated with basic calibration equipment.

RS46-cal3.jpg

wow, I knew it was 'good enough', but I didn't realize it was actually that close.

you'd be the guy to know, is there anything else 'upgraded' between the x35 and x55 other than the eshift then? seems like such a jump in price

Displays: Samsung PN64F8500/JVC X35
AVR: Pioneer VSX-1018AH, 5.1 audio
Sources: HTPC(Mediabrowser), PS3, XBOX360, Wii, Sony DVP-CX995V
Control: Harmony One
fierce_gt is online now  
post #19 of 57 Old 08-03-2013, 09:54 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Seegs108's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Schenectady, New York
Posts: 3,754
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 104 Post(s)
Liked: 144
Just contrast performance, e-shift, full CMS to get it to track even closer, and a finer panel misconvergence corrector. I may be wrong but I think I read somewhere that the X55 and higher gets some sort of extra 3D processing as well.
Seegs108 is online now  
post #20 of 57 Old 08-04-2013, 04:07 PM
AVS Special Member
 
fierce_gt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,212
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 242 Post(s)
Liked: 570
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

Just contrast performance, e-shift, full CMS to get it to track even closer, and a finer panel misconvergence corrector. I may be wrong but I think I read somewhere that the X55 and higher gets some sort of extra 3D processing as well.

I was pretty sure when shopping that the x35 and x55 had the same contrast.

I do remember hearing about the convergence thing, but I also read mixed reviews on whether or not the 'subpixel' movements really helped. I got the impression from a couple sources that you really wanted to adjust full pixels for best results, but I may have read what I wanted to hear, haha.

Displays: Samsung PN64F8500/JVC X35
AVR: Pioneer VSX-1018AH, 5.1 audio
Sources: HTPC(Mediabrowser), PS3, XBOX360, Wii, Sony DVP-CX995V
Control: Harmony One
fierce_gt is online now  
post #21 of 57 Old 08-05-2013, 11:23 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
youngmic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 37
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
OK. Well, all this talk of bigger got me thinking and I've decided I'm going to flip the room and use the long dimension. The room is effectively 22 x 15. I'm thinking of going for a 144" wide screen. Haven't fully decided on 16:9 or 2.35. I'm leaning toward 2.35 as it will be easier to mask of for 16:9 than visa versa. On the other hand, that HUGE 16:9 image for concerts is pretty inviting. smile.gif

A few questions...

1. What are the factors in determining the best throw distance? Since I'm flipping the room, I'm no longer constrained by throw distance but rather wall size. I would mount the projector on the back wall for a throw of 20' with the lens at mid zoom or mount it at app 16' with the lens zoomed wide.
2. What are the factors in determining screen gain? I'm looking for the best neutral picture possible. i plan on full light control with no need to watch in ambient lighting conditions.
3. What would be the expected cost range of a 2.35 144" wide screen of medium quality (best bang for the buck if you will)?
4. How do I determine the best height for the projector? There will be people seated in multiple rows so it will have to be overhead. Should I basically make it as close to the center of the screen as possible?
5. How much stock should I put into recommend viewing distances? My front row seats (and the most comfortable seats) will be at 14 ft. Recommended for a 144" screen is a minimum of 16'. How critical a consideration is this?
6. I prefer the screen to be lower so that I am looking straight ahead rather than looking up. Is this a mistake? Are there things I should consider in this regard?
7. What is the preferred method of handling super wide ratios like 2.70 (and what is the ration of IMAX/70mm)? Is horizontal masking recommended here or just grit my teeth and live with the white bars? (Of course, if I go with 16:9 screen, I'd have to build or buy a vertical masking setup anyway...hmm).
8. What do you guys think of the Elite Screens Lunette curved screen? It was a top pick in home theater mag. Does a curved screen allow for a closer viewing distance? I assume though that it would be harder to use a horizontal mask for a screen like this.

You guys have been so helpful. I'm still a bit torn between DLP and LCOS but am leaning toward the JVC at the end of the day. I have a hyper critical eye for color (I spent a few years making duplicates of E6 transparencies as a profession (that's an old tech called "slides" for all you youngsters) and developed a sensitivity to non-neutrality. But I also hate poor black levels. But with the screenshots I've seen, I think I can get the JVC to a satisfactory place. The commentary on DLP being weaker for darker scenes scares me a bit.

Thanks!

Mike
youngmic is offline  
post #22 of 57 Old 08-06-2013, 04:53 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
stanger89's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Marion, IA
Posts: 17,313
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)
Liked: 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by youngmic View Post

OK. Well, all this talk of bigger got me thinking and I've decided I'm going to flip the room and use the long dimension. The room is effectively 22 x 15. I'm thinking of going for a 144" wide screen. Haven't fully decided on 16:9 or 2.35. I'm leaning toward 2.35 as it will be easier to mask of for 16:9 than visa versa. On the other hand, that HUGE 16:9 image for concerts is pretty inviting. smile.gif

A few questions...

1. What are the factors in determining the best throw distance? Since I'm flipping the room, I'm no longer constrained by throw distance but rather wall size. I would mount the projector on the back wall for a throw of 20' with the lens at mid zoom or mount it at app 16' with the lens zoomed wide.

Longer throw is generally higher quality (higher contrast, less glass used so slight better that way), but at the cost of light output. Which if you're going ~144" you may well need.
Quote:
2. What are the factors in determining screen gain? I'm looking for the best neutral picture possible. i plan on full light control with no need to watch in ambient lighting conditions.

Essentially it's nothing more than to make up for lack of light output. You want the lowest (closest to 1.0) gain you can get away with while achieving your desired brightness. 16 ftL is the DCI standard. You can use the formula:
brightness (ftL) = light output (Lumens) * gain / screen are (sqft)
Quote:
4. How do I determine the best height for the projector? There will be people seated in multiple rows so it will have to be overhead. Should I basically make it as close to the center of the screen as possible?

Ideally whatever uses the minimum lens shift, but if you're not out at the extremes of lens shift you should be fine. There's one caveat, if you use a retroreflective screen (eg DaLite High Power) you want the projector to be as close in height to your seated eye height as possible to maximize gain.
Quote:
5. How much stock should I put into recommend viewing distances? My front row seats (and the most comfortable seats) will be at 14 ft. Recommended for a 144" screen is a minimum of 16'. How critical a consideration is this?

Whatever makes you happy is the only thing that matters. Recommendations are good starting points if you have no idea what you like, nothing more than that.
Quote:
6. I prefer the screen to be lower so that I am looking straight ahead rather than looking up. Is this a mistake? Are there things I should consider in this regard?

If that's what you want, go for it.
Quote:
7. What is the preferred method of handling super wide ratios like 2.70 (and what is the ration of IMAX/70mm)? Is horizontal masking recommended here or just grit my teeth and live with the white bars? (Of course, if I go with 16:9 screen, I'd have to build or buy a vertical masking setup anyway...hmm).

Unless you get a 2.70:1 screen you'll have bars for anything wider than your screen, you cold zoom/crop the edges off or live with the bars, or get masking. IMAX is 1.44:1 but AFAIK, all the Blu-ray transfers are cropped to 16:9.
Quote:
The commentary on DLP being weaker for darker scenes scares me a bit.

My only suggestion there is if you haven't seen a good one try to. While I don't think the comments here are inaccurate, I think they are exaggerated, at least regarding the better DLPs.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
stanger89 is offline  
post #23 of 57 Old 08-06-2013, 06:36 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
youngmic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 37
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Stanger89, thank you! I have only briefly viewed a Runco LS-3. What are the best DLP's under $10k?
youngmic is offline  
post #24 of 57 Old 08-06-2013, 06:53 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
stanger89's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Marion, IA
Posts: 17,313
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)
Liked: 117
Well the LS3 is probably up there. Seegs has a much better idea than I do.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
stanger89 is offline  
post #25 of 57 Old 08-25-2013, 02:28 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
youngmic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 37
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Thanks again to all of you who have replied to this post. I’ve recently borrowed an Epson 3020 to get a feel for screen size, viewing distance, projector placement, etc. I’ve decided that I like big (my room is 15’x22’). I’ve also decided that I want to go with a 2.35:1 aspect ratio and use drapes to mask off 16:9 material. (My only “concern” here is with multi AR films like TDKR. Not sure what I’ll do with those.)

My primary viewing distance will be 14 ft, which flies against the recommendations I’ve read for the screen size I’m considering – a 176” diagonal 2.35:1, 1.1 gain screen from Elite. My throw distance will be around 18 feet. According to the screen calculator on Projector Central, I should get about 13fl from this setup.

I was pleasantly surprised by the Epson 3020 so I’m now leaning toward the 6020. I had previously decided on the Runco LS-5 (viewed an LS-3 and it blew me away) but am worried about the rainbow thing. I’m pretty sensitive to stuff like that. Still leaning away from the JVC as I wasn’t crazy about what e-shift did to edge sharpness – kind of artificial looking imo.

Still a little concerned about AR choices. How worried should I be about 2.35 vs 2.39 vs 2.4?

Anyway, appreciate any thoughts you might have.

Thanks!
youngmic is offline  
post #26 of 57 Old 08-25-2013, 03:08 PM
AVS Special Member
 
blee0120's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Merillville, IN 46410
Posts: 3,531
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked: 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by youngmic View Post

Thanks again to all of you who have replied to this post. I’ve recently borrowed an Epson 3020 to get a feel for screen size, viewing distance, projector placement, etc. I’ve decided that I like big (my room is 15’x22’). I’ve also decided that I want to go with a 2.35:1 aspect ratio and use drapes to mask off 16:9 material. (My only “concern” here is with multi AR films like TDKR. Not sure what I’ll do with those.)

My primary viewing distance will be 14 ft, which flies against the recommendations I’ve read for the screen size I’m considering – a 176” diagonal 2.35:1, 1.1 gain screen from Elite. My throw distance will be around 18 feet. According to the screen calculator on Projector Central, I should get about 13fl from this setup.

I was pleasantly surprised by the Epson 3020 so I’m now leaning toward the 6020. I had previously decided on the Runco LS-5 (viewed an LS-3 and it blew me away) but am worried about the rainbow thing. I’m pretty sensitive to stuff like that. Still leaning away from the JVC as I wasn’t crazy about what e-shift did to edge sharpness – kind of artificial looking imo.

Still a little concerned about AR choices. How worried should I be about 2.35 vs 2.39 vs 2.4?

Anyway, appreciate any thoughts you might have.

Thanks!

If you don't like Eshift, you can easily turn it off. But for that size screen, there is probably no way to get accurate color. You would need to use a projector brightest mode. Epson has the best bightness with mostly accurate color I hear. But if the 3020 was good enough, I say go for the 5020 or 6020. Matter of fact, you should wait for the new Epson projectors to come out in a couple of months
blee0120 is online now  
post #27 of 57 Old 08-25-2013, 03:58 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
youngmic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 37
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

If you don't like Eshift, you can easily turn it off. But for that size screen, there is probably no way to get accurate color. You would need to use a projector brightest mode. Epson has the best bightness with mostly accurate color I hear. But if the 3020 was good enough, I say go for the 5020 or 6020. Matter of fact, you should wait for the new Epson projectors to come out in a couple of months

True. And yeah, I'm going to wait and hope that the new Epson and Sony have power zoom/focus/shift w/memory. Didn't know color accuracy was a concern dependent on screen size. Projector Central's calculator gives me 13fl for both the Epson and the JVC at that size and distance.
youngmic is offline  
post #28 of 57 Old 08-25-2013, 04:42 PM
AVS Special Member
 
blee0120's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Merillville, IN 46410
Posts: 3,531
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked: 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by youngmic View Post

True. And yeah, I'm going to wait and hope that the new Epson and Sony have power zoom/focus/shift w/memory. Didn't know color accuracy was a concern dependent on screen size. Projector Central's calculator gives me 13fl for both the Epson and the JVC at that size and distance.


Its that to light up a huge screen, the calibrated lumens will just be too dim. You would need to get less accurate colors to provide enough brightness. For instance, my JVC can get about 800 lumens calibrated but if I need to light up that size screen, I would need to stray away from those calibrated lumens and use the brightest mode to provide me a good image that's watchable
blee0120 is online now  
post #29 of 57 Old 08-26-2013, 07:46 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
AV Science Sales 5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: A beautiful view of a lake
Posts: 7,242
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 143 Post(s)
Liked: 351
Quote:
Originally Posted by youngmic View Post

True. And yeah, I'm going to wait and hope that the new Epson and Sony have power zoom/focus/shift w/memory. Didn't know color accuracy was a concern dependent on screen size. Projector Central's calculator gives me 13fl for both the Epson and the JVC at that size and distance.

Sony will probably have that feature, but it does not look like Epson will be adding that feature.

Mike Garrett, AV Science Sales
Call Me: 585-671-2968
Email Me: Mike@AVScience.com

Brands we sell: http://avscience.com/brands/

 

Call for B-stock projectors

Stewart, Seymour, SE, SI & many more.
Klipsch, RBH, Martin Logan, Triad, Atlantic Technology, MK Sound, BG Radia, SVS & Def Tech.

AV Science Sales 5 is offline  
post #30 of 57 Old 08-26-2013, 09:29 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
millerwill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Berkeley, CA
Posts: 11,358
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by youngmic View Post

Thanks again to all of you who have replied to this post. I’ve recently borrowed an Epson 3020 to get a feel for screen size, viewing distance, projector placement, etc. I’ve decided that I like big (my room is 15’x22’). I’ve also decided that I want to go with a 2.35:1 aspect ratio and use drapes to mask off 16:9 material. (My only “concern” here is with multi AR films like TDKR. Not sure what I’ll do with those.)

My primary viewing distance will be 14 ft, which flies against the recommendations I’ve read for the screen size I’m considering – a 176” diagonal 2.35:1, 1.1 gain screen from Elite. My throw distance will be around 18 feet. According to the screen calculator on Projector Central, I should get about 13fl from this setup.

I was pleasantly surprised by the Epson 3020 so I’m now leaning toward the 6020. I had previously decided on the Runco LS-5 (viewed an LS-3 and it blew me away) but am worried about the rainbow thing. I’m pretty sensitive to stuff like that. Still leaning away from the JVC as I wasn’t crazy about what e-shift did to edge sharpness – kind of artificial looking imo.

Still a little concerned about AR choices. How worried should I be about 2.35 vs 2.39 vs 2.4?

Anyway, appreciate any thoughts you might have.

Thanks!

I don't think these projectors will be bright enough for a 144" wide 1.0 gain screen. E.g, if the projector puts out 500 lumens--which is a reasonable estimate after some hrs on the lamp--you would have ~ 6 ftL coming off the screen*. If you could manage to use a HiPower screen with 2.4 gain, this would come to ~15 ftL, which is reasonable.

I have a 144" wide HP2.4 screen, with a Sony1000ES projector, and it works great. But I don't think it would with a 1.0 gain screen of this size.

*PS I assumed that you will be using the zoom method for 2.35, so computed using the area of a 16x9 pic that is 144" wide (81 ft^2). ftL = lumens X gain/area (in ft^2)
millerwill is offline  
Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

Tags
Runco , Jvc Dla X35 3d Hd Front Projector , Sony Vpl Hw30es 300 Inch 1080p Front Projector , Epson 5020ub Powerlite Home Cinema 3d Front Projector
Gear in this thread

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off