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post #301 of 317 Old 07-24-2014, 05:52 PM
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An interesting addendum to this thread...

It seems the DPI M-Vision Cine LED 1000 is the projector of choice for Theo Kalomirakis' new personal home theater, the ROXY 2.0.

http://theosroundtable.com/theo-blog...in-my-theater/
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post #302 of 317 Old 07-25-2014, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by b curry View Post
An interesting addendum to this thread...

It seems the DPI M-Vision Cine LED 1000 is the projector of choice for Theo Kalomirakis' new personal home theater, the ROXY 2.0.

http://theosroundtable.com/theo-blog...in-my-theater/

That is interesting - good catch! It's a great projector. We still have one unit available just FYI !!

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post #303 of 317 Old 07-27-2014, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
To be technical, that includes on/off CR.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stray_light

"Stray light is light in an optical system, which was not intended in the design. The light may be from the intended source, but follow paths other than intended, or it may be from a source other than the intended source. This light will often set a working limit on the dynamic range of the system; it limits the signal-to-noise ratio or contrast ratio, by limiting how dark the system can be."
so we agree that dimming LED's would do as well, or BETTER job of reducing stray light in terms of on/off contrast...? cause that's what I was saying. and based on current projectors, I would personally notice an improvement in on/off contrast more than an improvement in ANSI contrast. give me those deep deep blacks

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post #304 of 317 Old 07-27-2014, 01:17 PM
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Considering this same light engine has been used for both LED and lamp illumination and got basically the same numbers I would say that LEDs don't have an advantage or at least the specific physical iris device used in this Delta light engine does an excellent (equal) job at stopping stray light, if LEDs do indeed have an advantage, but I would imagine it's the light engine, not the light source, that will dictate how much stray light will affect contrast.

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post #305 of 317 Old 07-29-2014, 10:14 PM
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This may initially appear to be off topic, but I posted here a few weeks ago to try and understand whether the new Cine LED 1000 would provide an improvement over my Runco Q-750i (same as previous 600 Lumen Cine LED).

Some suggested that I look towards the newer JVC's and I finally managed to see the JVC X700 a week ago. Before I visited the store to demo the projector I watched multiple scenes from two Bluray movies that I own on my Runco Q-750i. Immediately following these, I visited the store and was given full access and control of the showroom to make my own comparisons. When I returned home I again watched the same material on my set up.

Before posting my findings, it's worth listing a couple of the key differences in set up between the store and my own set up:
1. Screen: Store -135" 2.35 (not sure of gain); my screen: 130" 2.35 (Stewart Firehawk G3)
2. Store: Zoom method to achieve 2.35; My set up -use of Schneider Cine Digitar to achieve 2.35

So given the above, it is probably a little difficult to directly compare perceived brightness etc. However, regardless of the differences my view was that the JVC was slightly brighter than my set up despite using the zoom method to achieve 2.35. The difference was not massive but it was there. This is the first JVC that I've seen that actually had anywhere near its quoted lumens (I'm a previous JVC owner).

Black levels were typically JVC but there was something odd that I picked up after extended viewing. The black levels on bright scenes, especially where black was adjacent to bright material was very average. In fact, in my view it was significantly worse than the Q-750i. Darker scenes were a no contest as expected.

Colour performance of the JVC was ok but to me still left a little to be desired against the Q-750i -and this is compared to BT709 not to native LED. The store rep did state that they hadnt performed a full calibration but had just made basic adjustments so this may have influenced things somewhat.

Without going into extensive detail, the JVC impressed me, especially compared to its previous offerings. However, on all but 5% of the scenes that I viewed (dark scenes included) I prefered the picture of the LED Q-750i and by a decent margin. It's hard to put a finger on exactly why but the image just looked so much more natural where the JVC had a sort of processed look to it. It may have been the eShift processing but who knows. I guess that this crude comparison has convinced me to rule out the JVC at this point.

So, this brings me to my next question(s). I am looking at purchasing a Cine 1000 LED for the improvement in brightness, a Sony VW500ES, potentially a used Runco LS-10i or a used DPI Highlight 260. The price of these to me is likely to be within $500 or so of each other. A few points or opinions:
1. I am not necessarily convinced of the benefits of 4k unless at very close seating distances. I do not see pixellation unless sitting closer than 10ft in my cinema. This seating distance is unfeasible in this and I believe any future home theater rooms that I am likely to have.
2. I understand that the Cine LED 1000 is in essence the same projector as my Q-750i with increased brightness. In my experience, increased brightness with all else being equal does provide a perceived improvement in overall PQ.
3. I am concerned that the Cine LED 1000 does not deliver on its brightness claims based on what i've read. The best that i've read so far is ~680 Lumens which is ~50% greater than my Q750i at D65. Anyone measure better than this? Are my concerns valid?

Has anyone out there seen each of these projectors in the flesh? Are you able to share your subjective views? I am not necessarily disappointed with the Q750i but there is an upgrade itch developing that I can't seem to settle. It has been 2 years after all...

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post #306 of 317 Old 07-30-2014, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanoo View Post
This may initially appear to be off topic, but I posted here a few weeks ago to try and understand whether the new Cine LED 1000 would provide an improvement over my Runco Q-750i (same as previous 600 Lumen Cine LED).

Some suggested that I look towards the newer JVC's and I finally managed to see the JVC X700 a week ago. Before I visited the store to demo the projector I watched multiple scenes from two Bluray movies that I own on my Runco Q-750i. Immediately following these, I visited the store and was given full access and control of the showroom to make my own comparisons. When I returned home I again watched the same material on my set up.

Before posting my findings, it's worth listing a couple of the key differences in set up between the store and my own set up:
1. Screen: Store -135" 2.35 (not sure of gain); my screen: 130" 2.35 (Stewart Firehawk G3)
2. Store: Zoom method to achieve 2.35; My set up -use of Schneider Cine Digitar to achieve 2.35

So given the above, it is probably a little difficult to directly compare perceived brightness etc. However, regardless of the differences my view was that the JVC was slightly brighter than my set up despite using the zoom method to achieve 2.35. The difference was not massive but it was there. This is the first JVC that I've seen that actually had anywhere near its quoted lumens (I'm a previous JVC owner).

Black levels were typically JVC but there was something odd that I picked up after extended viewing. The black levels on bright scenes, especially where black was adjacent to bright material was very average. In fact, in my view it was significantly worse than the Q-750i. Darker scenes were a no contest as expected.

Colour performance of the JVC was ok but to me still left a little to be desired against the Q-750i -and this is compared to BT709 not to native LED. The store rep did state that they hadnt performed a full calibration but had just made basic adjustments so this may have influenced things somewhat.

Without going into extensive detail, the JVC impressed me, especially compared to its previous offerings. However, on all but 5% of the scenes that I viewed (dark scenes included) I prefered the picture of the LED Q-750i and by a decent margin. It's hard to put a finger on exactly why but the image just looked so much more natural where the JVC had a sort of processed look to it. It may have been the eShift processing but who knows. I guess that this crude comparison has convinced me to rule out the JVC at this point.

So, this brings me to my next question(s). I am looking at purchasing a Cine 1000 LED for the improvement in brightness, a Sony VW500ES, potentially a used Runco LS-10i or a used DPI Highlight 260. The price of these to me is likely to be within $500 or so of each other. A few points or opinions:
1. I am not necessarily convinced of the benefits of 4k unless at very close seating distances. I do not see pixellation unless sitting closer than 10ft in my cinema. This seating distance is unfeasible in this and I believe any future home theater rooms that I am likely to have.
2. I understand that the Cine LED 1000 is in essence the same projector as my Q-750i with increased brightness. In my experience, increased brightness with all else being equal does provide a perceived improvement in overall PQ.
3. I am concerned that the Cine LED 1000 does not deliver on its brightness claims based on what i've read. The best that i've read so far is ~680 Lumens which is ~50% greater than my Q750i at D65. Anyone measure better than this? Are my concerns valid?

Has anyone out there seen each of these projectors in the flesh? Are you able to share your subjective views? I am not necessarily disappointed with the Q750i but there is an upgrade itch developing that I can't seem to settle. It has been 2 years after all...
I've only seen the Cine 1000 LED and the Sony VW600ES. Without actual 4K material on the 600ES being considered, they both looked equally excellent. The Sony is brighter. But the Cine 1000 won't dim like it will. Based on your comparison with the JVC, you may be like me - you still like the look a top notch DLP projector throws.
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post #307 of 317 Old 07-30-2014, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanoo View Post
This may initially appear to be off topic, but I posted here a few weeks ago to try and understand whether the new Cine LED 1000 would provide an improvement over my Runco Q-750i (same as previous 600 Lumen Cine LED).

Some suggested that I look towards the newer JVC's and I finally managed to see the JVC X700 a week ago. Before I visited the store to demo the projector I watched multiple scenes from two Bluray movies that I own on my Runco Q-750i. Immediately following these, I visited the store and was given full access and control of the showroom to make my own comparisons. When I returned home I again watched the same material on my set up.

Before posting my findings, it's worth listing a couple of the key differences in set up between the store and my own set up:
1. Screen: Store -135" 2.35 (not sure of gain); my screen: 130" 2.35 (Stewart Firehawk G3)
2. Store: Zoom method to achieve 2.35; My set up -use of Schneider Cine Digitar to achieve 2.35

So given the above, it is probably a little difficult to directly compare perceived brightness etc. However, regardless of the differences my view was that the JVC was slightly brighter than my set up despite using the zoom method to achieve 2.35. The difference was not massive but it was there. This is the first JVC that I've seen that actually had anywhere near its quoted lumens (I'm a previous JVC owner).

Black levels were typically JVC but there was something odd that I picked up after extended viewing. The black levels on bright scenes, especially where black was adjacent to bright material was very average. In fact, in my view it was significantly worse than the Q-750i. Darker scenes were a no contest as expected.

Colour performance of the JVC was ok but to me still left a little to be desired against the Q-750i -and this is compared to BT709 not to native LED. The store rep did state that they hadnt performed a full calibration but had just made basic adjustments so this may have influenced things somewhat.

Without going into extensive detail, the JVC impressed me, especially compared to its previous offerings. However, on all but 5% of the scenes that I viewed (dark scenes included) I prefered the picture of the LED Q-750i and by a decent margin. It's hard to put a finger on exactly why but the image just looked so much more natural where the JVC had a sort of processed look to it. It may have been the eShift processing but who knows. I guess that this crude comparison has convinced me to rule out the JVC at this point.

So, this brings me to my next question(s). I am looking at purchasing a Cine 1000 LED for the improvement in brightness, a Sony VW500ES, potentially a used Runco LS-10i or a used DPI Highlight 260. The price of these to me is likely to be within $500 or so of each other. A few points or opinions:
1. I am not necessarily convinced of the benefits of 4k unless at very close seating distances. I do not see pixellation unless sitting closer than 10ft in my cinema. This seating distance is unfeasible in this and I believe any future home theater rooms that I am likely to have.
2. I understand that the Cine LED 1000 is in essence the same projector as my Q-750i with increased brightness. In my experience, increased brightness with all else being equal does provide a perceived improvement in overall PQ.
3. I am concerned that the Cine LED 1000 does not deliver on its brightness claims based on what i've read. The best that i've read so far is ~680 Lumens which is ~50% greater than my Q750i at D65. Anyone measure better than this? Are my concerns valid?

Has anyone out there seen each of these projectors in the flesh? Are you able to share your subjective views? I am not necessarily disappointed with the Q750i but there is an upgrade itch developing that I can't seem to settle. It has been 2 years after all...
I think it might be a gamble unless you need the brightness. It also seem as if you like the DLP look better than LCOS. Also, the JVC is a really good projector but not all material looks better on it. I do like having both.
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post #308 of 317 Old 07-31-2014, 09:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanoo View Post
This may initially appear to be off topic, but I posted here a few weeks ago to try and understand whether the new Cine LED 1000 would provide an improvement over my Runco Q-750i (same as previous 600 Lumen Cine LED).

Some suggested that I look towards the newer JVC's and I finally managed to see the JVC X700 a week ago. Before I visited the store to demo the projector I watched multiple scenes from two Bluray movies that I own on my Runco Q-750i. Immediately following these, I visited the store and was given full access and control of the showroom to make my own comparisons. When I returned home I again watched the same material on my set up.

Before posting my findings, it's worth listing a couple of the key differences in set up between the store and my own set up:
1. Screen: Store -135" 2.35 (not sure of gain); my screen: 130" 2.35 (Stewart Firehawk G3)
2. Store: Zoom method to achieve 2.35; My set up -use of Schneider Cine Digitar to achieve 2.35

So given the above, it is probably a little difficult to directly compare perceived brightness etc. However, regardless of the differences my view was that the JVC was slightly brighter than my set up despite using the zoom method to achieve 2.35. The difference was not massive but it was there. This is the first JVC that I've seen that actually had anywhere near its quoted lumens (I'm a previous JVC owner).

Black levels were typically JVC but there was something odd that I picked up after extended viewing. The black levels on bright scenes, especially where black was adjacent to bright material was very average. In fact, in my view it was significantly worse than the Q-750i. Darker scenes were a no contest as expected.

Colour performance of the JVC was ok but to me still left a little to be desired against the Q-750i -and this is compared to BT709 not to native LED. The store rep did state that they hadnt performed a full calibration but had just made basic adjustments so this may have influenced things somewhat.

Without going into extensive detail, the JVC impressed me, especially compared to its previous offerings. However, on all but 5% of the scenes that I viewed (dark scenes included) I prefered the picture of the LED Q-750i and by a decent margin. It's hard to put a finger on exactly why but the image just looked so much more natural where the JVC had a sort of processed look to it. It may have been the eShift processing but who knows. I guess that this crude comparison has convinced me to rule out the JVC at this point.

So, this brings me to my next question(s). I am looking at purchasing a Cine 1000 LED for the improvement in brightness, a Sony VW500ES, potentially a used Runco LS-10i or a used DPI Highlight 260. The price of these to me is likely to be within $500 or so of each other. A few points or opinions:
1. I am not necessarily convinced of the benefits of 4k unless at very close seating distances. I do not see pixellation unless sitting closer than 10ft in my cinema. This seating distance is unfeasible in this and I believe any future home theater rooms that I am likely to have.
2. I understand that the Cine LED 1000 is in essence the same projector as my Q-750i with increased brightness. In my experience, increased brightness with all else being equal does provide a perceived improvement in overall PQ.
3. I am concerned that the Cine LED 1000 does not deliver on its brightness claims based on what i've read. The best that i've read so far is ~680 Lumens which is ~50% greater than my Q750i at D65. Anyone measure better than this? Are my concerns valid?

Has anyone out there seen each of these projectors in the flesh? Are you able to share your subjective views? I am not necessarily disappointed with the Q750i but there is an upgrade itch developing that I can't seem to settle. It has been 2 years after all...
If you love dlp like me and it sounds like you do you will really enjoy the runco ls10i, buy seegs ls10i it looks like a nice unit.
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post #309 of 317 Old 07-31-2014, 09:21 AM
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I thought some here were reporting 800 - something lumens when putting this machine in brilliant color mode, which DPI recommends it be put in. When I tested this projector (and sent it back) I was not impressed with the brightness (or the rainbows), but did not put it in this mode. I thought the mode was similar to modes that mess up the calibration. I was informed otherwise after I had already sent it back.


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post #310 of 317 Old 07-31-2014, 04:07 PM
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I thought some here were reporting 800 - something lumens when putting this machine in brilliant color mode, which DPI recommends it be put in. When I tested this projector (and sent it back) I was not impressed with the brightness (or the rainbows), but did not put it in this mode. I thought the mode was similar to modes that mess up the calibration. I was informed otherwise after I had already sent it back.

RBE was not present at all when I saw it at Cedia.

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post #311 of 317 Old 07-31-2014, 04:13 PM
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My friend and I may just be sensitive. We both thought it was quite bad. I wish I had engaged the high brightness mode.
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post #312 of 317 Old 07-31-2014, 05:07 PM
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I've had 4 LED units now (NuVision ProVu P2, Runco Q750i, Vivitek H9080FD, and the Runco LS-100D) and have never once seen a rainbow. This DP 1000 shares the same hardware that those first three units I've owned had. These LED units have sequential color at the equivalent to an 18x color wheel. So typically if you were to input a 60hz signal to a higher end DLP that has a 6x color wheel speed, you'd get a refresh of 360hz with the color wheel. With these LEDs you'd get 1080hz. It VERY difficult to see color separation at this speed. There is a phenomenon that looks like the color separation artifacts seen on single chip DLPs caused when display devices are driven by pulse width modulation. For instance, there are many plasma's, LCoS, LCD, LEDs, DLP ect that are driven this way. My guess is that this is what you and your friend were seeing. Only a small percentage of people are affected by this. You rarely hear people say they can see rainbows with these new LED units. My guess is that people are seeing a PWM artifact and not actual rainbows.

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post #313 of 317 Old 07-31-2014, 05:40 PM
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Quite possibly so. I can even see it extremely sporadically on my Sony 1100ES (my friend cannot). Not anywhere close to as much as well saw on the Cine 1000 though. It was a constant on the 1000 and is a rare occurrence on the 1100es. But yeah, I am obviously quite sensitive to it.


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post #314 of 317 Old 08-01-2014, 06:01 AM
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I am extremely sensitive to RBE and do see it on my Runco Q-750i so I assume that I will see it on the Cine 1000 LED. The RBE is way better than on normal lamp based DLP's but I still do see them. I can live with it though tbh as it's not too distracting and really only visible on very high contrast scenes.

I'm sure that brilliant color will measure higher lumens but this an over saturated setting the same as native on the Runco. To me all lumens should be specified at D65 so an inflated lumens reading at over saturated settings is a little meaningless to me. I prefer watching a calibrated image.
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post #315 of 317 Old 08-01-2014, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
I've had 4 LED units now (NuVision ProVu P2, Runco Q750i, Vivitek H9080FD, and the Runco LS-100D) and have never once seen a rainbow. This DP 1000 shares the same hardware that those first three units I've owned had. These LED units have sequential color at the equivalent to an 18x color wheel. So typically if you were to input a 60hz signal to a higher end DLP that has a 6x color wheel speed, you'd get a refresh of 360hz with the color wheel. With these LEDs you'd get 1080hz. It VERY difficult to see color separation at this speed. There is a phenomenon that looks like the color separation artifacts seen on single chip DLPs caused when display devices are driven by pulse width modulation. For instance, there are many plasma's, LCoS, LCD, LEDs, DLP ect that are driven this way. My guess is that this is what you and your friend were seeing. Only a small percentage of people are affected by this. You rarely hear people say they can see rainbows with these new LED units. My guess is that people are seeing a PWM artifact and not actual rainbows.

And there is no color wheel in this projector. Funny, I used to watch single chip DLP exclusively in my theater - back in the day. Never saw the RBE from them except under extremely rare and fleeting conditions. Went to some friends house in May for a memorial for someone that passed away. They were showing a video of the persons life on a screen outdoors at night. Must have been a business type DLP projector with a slow color wheel - I could see rainbows all over the place!

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post #316 of 317 Old 08-02-2014, 01:09 PM
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And there is no color wheel in this projector. Funny, I used to watch single chip DLP exclusively in my theater - back in the day. Never saw the RBE from them except under extremely rare and fleeting conditions. Went to some friends house in May for a memorial for someone that passed away. They were showing a video of the persons life on a screen outdoors at night. Must have been a business type DLP projector with a slow color wheel - I could see rainbows all over the place!
I only see rainbows on occasion with the higher end units. I'm assuming better color wheels help with this. I remember taking a look at the Optoma HD131xe and was amazed at how many rainbows I saw. This is a fairly bright projector that uses a white segment to get more brightness and I think it exacerbates the issue. Since most of the higher end units use more straightforward color wheels at higher speeds or ones with ND filters built in it makes the issue happen less.

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post #317 of 317 Old 08-02-2014, 01:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
I only see rainbows on occasion with the higher end units. I'm assuming better color wheels help with this. I remember taking a look at the Optoma HD131xe and was amazed at how many rainbows I saw. This is a fairly bright projector that uses a white segment to get more brightness and I think it exacerbates the issue. Since most of the higher end units use more straightforward color wheels at higher speeds or ones with ND filters built in it makes the issue happen less.
Yeah, the better units that use RGBRGB, often times do not have rainbow problems.

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