Projector Picture Quality vs Large HDTV - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 23 Old 08-09-2013, 01:58 PM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
Riceater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 14
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I'm guessing all projectors, like all TVs, aren't the same but I'm curious at what price point a projector would start competing with the picture quality on a higher end 65"+ LED TV.

For example, when you go to the movies anymore it's likely your home TV is superior in picture at least to your local theater (yes, I know the screen size is still radically different which plays a part) even though they've likely spent thousands on each of those digital projectors.

I guess what I'm asking is if it's possible to buy a projector setup that will match or beat most of the larger LED setups out today and if so which projectors are you looking at and at what price point?

Thank you!
Riceater is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 23 Old 08-09-2013, 02:20 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Seegs108's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Schenectady, New York
Posts: 3,753
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 104 Post(s)
Liked: 144
The biggest constraint a person will have going to a projector is modifying the room you plan on using it in. Ideally, you need to have complete light control and you need to treat the walls and ceiling so light doesn't reflect back on the screen. If you aren't willing to do these things I'd say stick with a larger HDTV. But if you are willing there are a ton of options. Seeing how you're posting in the $3000+ forum I'm assuming that's your budget. For around $3000 your best bet with 2D picture quality is going to be the JVC DLA-RS46 (or last years model the JVC DLA-RS45). Another alternative would be the Sony VPL-HW50ES. Both offer very good picture quality. There are higher performing projectors but you'd have to spend double that amount to start to really see the benefits.

As a side note about your comments about commercial movie theaters. I feel like I'm lucky or something. Locally, most of the theaters have switched to 4K digital projectors (Many of them are Sony's) and I think they offer AMAZING image quality. The only thing lacking is contrast but they typically care more about image brightness over contrast performance. Another thing is the digital source material they get is SO much better than what we get on blu-ray. I went to see The Conjuring last night and I thought it looked stunning. Sharpness, shadow detail, motion handling and the clarity to the image was breathtaking. The Great Gatsby was just as amazing in theaters. This has been the trend to almost all the movies I've seen recently.
Seegs108 is online now  
post #3 of 23 Old 08-09-2013, 03:04 PM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
Riceater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 14
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I currently live in a 2-bedroom apartment so a projector setup wouldn't work anyway at the moment. My questions are more just out of pure curiosity than anything.

The first "4K" movie I saw was The Hobbit in theaters and yes it looked amazing. If the theater had an actual 4K projector they must not use it for every movie because I have yet to see the Digital 4K advertisement pop up before the movie on anything I've seen since.

Is there a threshold in projector screen size where the picture quality starts to deteriorate or would any of those $3000 projectors keep pretty constant image quality anywhere between 100-150"? I can't imagine ever going bigger than 140-150" in most homes unless you had some deep pockets and built a custom home theater room.
Riceater is offline  
post #4 of 23 Old 08-09-2013, 03:41 PM
Senior Member
 
jbn008's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 300
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

The biggest constraint a person will have going to a projector is modifying the room you plan on using it in. Ideally, you need to have complete light control and you need to treat the walls and ceiling so light doesn't reflect back on the screen. If you aren't willing to do these things I'd say stick with a larger HDTV. But if you are willing there are a ton of options. Seeing how you're posting in the $3000+ forum I'm assuming that's your budget. For around $3000 your best bet with 2D picture quality is going to be the JVC DLA-RS46 (or last years model the JVC DLA-RS45). Another alternative would be the Sony VPL-HW50ES. Both offer very good picture quality. There are higher performing projectors but you'd have to spend double that amount to start to really see the benefits.

As a side note about your comments about commercial movie theaters. I feel like I'm lucky or something. Locally, most of the theaters have switched to 4K digital projectors (Many of them are Sony's) and I think they offer AMAZING image quality. The only thing lacking is contrast but they typically care more about image brightness over contrast performance. Another thing is the digital source material they get is SO much better than what we get on blu-ray. I went to see The Conjuring last night and I thought it looked stunning. Sharpness, shadow detail, motion handling and the clarity to the image was breathtaking. The Great Gatsby was just as amazing in theaters. This has been the trend to almost all the movies I've seen recently.

on a side note, how was the Conjuring?

Headless Petie
jbn008 is offline  
post #5 of 23 Old 08-09-2013, 03:58 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Seegs108's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Schenectady, New York
Posts: 3,753
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 104 Post(s)
Liked: 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riceater View Post

I currently live in a 2-bedroom apartment so a projector setup wouldn't work anyway at the moment. My questions are more just out of pure curiosity than anything.

The first "4K" movie I saw was The Hobbit in theaters and yes it looked amazing. If the theater had an actual 4K projector they must not use it for every movie because I have yet to see the Digital 4K advertisement pop up before the movie on anything I've seen since.

Is there a threshold in projector screen size where the picture quality starts to deteriorate or would any of those $3000 projectors keep pretty constant image quality anywhere between 100-150"? I can't imagine ever going bigger than 140-150" in most homes unless you had some deep pockets and built a custom home theater room.

The Sony I mentioned is particularly bright so it should be able to do sizes that big when paired with the right screen. You'd be pushing the JVC a bit once you hit 130'+. Picture quality wise, the only "deteriorating" quality would be brightness at those sizes. Each projector has it's comfortable zone regarding picture size. The JVCs tend to work better on 120" and lower screen sizes unless you pair it with a screen that has a lot of gain. Once seeing a few high performing projectors there's now going back or at least that was the case with me. Once you experience the "big" screen it's hard to look at a flat panel again.
Seegs108 is online now  
post #6 of 23 Old 08-09-2013, 03:58 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Seegs108's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Schenectady, New York
Posts: 3,753
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 104 Post(s)
Liked: 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbn008 View Post

on a side note, how was the Conjuring?

Very good for a Horror movie. It had me on the edge of my seat the whole time. It's definitely worth seeing in theaters if you like the horror genre.
Seegs108 is online now  
post #7 of 23 Old 08-09-2013, 04:10 PM
Member
 
merc10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 39
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 14
I have a Panasonic 65 " plasma.Last years model.
If the room is darkened and light controlled.You can get as good or better a picture out of a decent projector.
Personally i prefer the PQ of my JVC x35 over the Plasmas everytime,with a good source.
merc10 is offline  
post #8 of 23 Old 08-09-2013, 04:20 PM
Member
 
gbickle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 194
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by merc10 View Post

I have a Panasonic 65 " plasma.Last years model.
If the room is darkened and light controlled.You can get as good or better a picture out of a decent projector.
Personally i prefer the PQ of my JVC x35 over the Plasmas everytime,with a good source.

Yeh plasma is very good in some ways. But I still think its overrated big time. The picture noise (haze of moving pixels) looks pretty obvious to me. Doesnt have the sharpness that a good projector can have either.
gbickle is offline  
post #9 of 23 Old 08-09-2013, 06:12 PM
AVS Special Member
 
fierce_gt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,198
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 234 Post(s)
Liked: 567
first, I haven't had the pleasure of viewing a full array LED at home, and no edge-lit LED I've had lasted longer than a couple of days. for me, EVERY projector surpasses the quality of an LED flat screen when viewed in dark. and of course, no projector can come close if viewed in a bright room.

but for the sake of being helpful, I find my jvc x35 to be a very comparable match to my Samsung f8500 plasma. my biggest problem at the moment is i'm using a very cheap electric screen, and from normal viewing distances the texture and sparklies are very bad. it's much worse than being projected onto the wall actually.

that makes it tough to draw conclusions, but I would say in a proper viewing environment the jvc matches or beats the pq of most flat screens on the market. there will of course be pros and cons related to the different technologies that need to be judged on a model by model basis.

it should also be noted that the projectors are very sensitive to room conditions, and it doesn't take much to go from a reference quality plasma-like picture to a washed out cheap lcd looking one. my cell phone outputs enough light that, if aimed at the screen, washes out the image. control of lighting, not just overall brightness but aim as well, is absolutely crucial for a projector to look great.

for a cost breakdown:
64" Samsung f8500 was 2850
jvc x35 + 3D emitter, 2 pairs of glasses, and spare bulb was 3000 (although due to buying online and paying different sales taxes ended up being cheaper than the tv)
my screen was only about 300bux, but clearly I should have spent more to get the full potential from my projector.

Displays: Samsung PN64F8500/JVC X35
AVR: Pioneer VSX-1018AH, 5.1 audio
Sources: HTPC(Mediabrowser), PS3, XBOX360, Wii, Sony DVP-CX995V
Control: Harmony One
fierce_gt is offline  
post #10 of 23 Old 08-10-2013, 08:56 AM
Senior Member
 
jbn008's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 300
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

Very good for a Horror movie. It had me on the edge of my seat the whole time. It's definitely worth seeing in theaters if you like the horror genre.

That's good to hear, I'm looking forward to it. thanks

Headless Petie
jbn008 is offline  
post #11 of 23 Old 08-13-2013, 05:19 AM
Member
 
bull3001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 111
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
This is the exact same question i was wondering about but the projectors i was looking at were the Panasonic PT-AE8000 and Sony VPL-HW30ES.
I have a budget of $2500-$3000 just for the projector.

Also the screen size i think i will be content with will be about 135". Any budget screen recommendations will be great around $1000.

I am new to the projector world so if there are projectors that i might not be considering due to lack of my knowledge. Can anyone chime in and assist me.
Also the image below is kind of my setup that i would like to have.
I have a 25x25 room and i can adjust the screen size to anything but i am concerned about the Gain on screen vs screen size to distance of the projector. The projector will be on an Audio Tower rather than ceiling or wall mount.
Everything that will be watched is 2D.
Any help would be appreciated.

bull3001 is online now  
post #12 of 23 Old 08-13-2013, 02:15 PM
AVS Special Member
 
AV_Integrated's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Northern, VA - Washington, DC
Posts: 2,908
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 132 Post(s)
Liked: 272
I hear these types of questions all of the time, and in reality there is not a specific answer which applies.

Front projection is best improved by the room it is in. Unlike a flat panel which can work decently, to very well in a room with light in it, a projector can rarely achieve more than a 50:1 contrast ratio in a lit room. A typical boardroom strives for about a 12:1 contrast ratio! With this in mind, the room is the single biggest performance enhancement for any front projection setup.

So, with a mostly dark painted room, and dark ceilings, carpet, furniture, etc. and a decent projector you will get remarkable results which easily rival the local cinema. Even a good cinema can be quickly devastated by the quality of a good home system costing just a few thousand dollars.

Image size? Sure, let's go there...

As image size increases, brightness on the screen decreases. So, it becomes a math equation. The goal for 2D viewing is generally between 13 and 18 lumens per square foot. Typical advertised lumens are about twice what real world lumens ever are after calibration, so, about 30 lumens per advertised square foot... Then do the math to see how much screen you can go with. Even then, if you take a bit of a color hit, you can often go larger, but certainly in a truly dark space, at 13 lumens per square foot, most people will be happy with what they see on screen from a decent projector.

Of course, a decent projector itself has a cost associated with it, and the deep contrast models such as the Epson 5020, or better yet the Sony and JVC LCoS models really do deliver the good stuff which puts them up there with good plasma and LCD displays.

Back to image size, you have to understand that projectors (and sources) are typically running at 1080p. That's 2,000,000 pixels on screen. The same number of pixels in many 50" TVs are what a projector uses. So, as the size increases, the quality gets worse when viewed from the same distance.

That last part matters a great deal, because people often forget that as you move away from a pattern of dots, it becomes more and more difficult to distinguish individual dots. Similar to pointillism in art, as you move farther and farther away, the image is smoothed out to the point where the average human can't resolve the individual pixels. This is just beyond 1.5x the screen width for the average human with 20/20 vision.

At the basic level, a screen that is 10' wide and viewed from 15' away with 15 lumens on screen and a 1,000:1 contrast ratio will appear identical in quality to a 20' wide screen viewed from 30' away which delivers 15 lumens on screen and a 1,000 contrast ratio (all colors, motion, etc. being equal as well). But, take one step closer to the 10' screen, and the image will appear worse than the 20' wide image. Take 5 steps closer to the 20' wide image and it will look worse. Don't put as much light on screen, and things could look downright ugly. Use a poor video processor, and things can be nasty looking, while better image processing, better color rendition, better contrast, and more details in the black with better light output can deliver an image that is much better.

At the end of all this, put a JVC RS46 into a dark room on a 100" fixed frame screen and add some good audio and you will rival 90% of the theaters currently out there.

AV Integrated - Theater, whole house audio, and technology installation in the Washington DC metro area.
AV_Integrated is offline  
post #13 of 23 Old 08-14-2013, 04:49 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Socio's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 2,255
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Another to consider for TV vs Projector is TVs can't do is CinemaScope or 2.35:1 where some projectors can, enhancing the image for movies filmed in that aspect.
Socio is offline  
post #14 of 23 Old 08-14-2013, 09:06 AM
AVS Special Member
 
JDLIVE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Marlborough, MA
Posts: 2,897
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 23
Send a message via Yahoo to JDLIVE
Quote:
Originally Posted by Socio View Post

Another to consider for TV vs Projector is TVs can't do is CinemaScope or 2.35:1 where some projectors can, enhancing the image for movies filmed in that aspect.

There are 21:9 ratio TVs available now, at least last time I checked. I think Philips stopped selling theirs, but Vizio still lists a cinemascope model.
JDLIVE is online now  
post #15 of 23 Old 08-14-2013, 01:25 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Socio's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 2,255
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDLIVE View Post

There are 21:9 ratio TVs available now, at least last time I checked. I think Philips stopped selling theirs, but Vizio still lists a cinemascope model.

Did not know that, I will have to look them up out of curiosity.
Socio is offline  
post #16 of 23 Old 08-14-2013, 01:42 PM
Member
 
Johnrecon's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 22
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Also, if its not possible to modify the room (dark ceiling/walls/floor furniture) many people go for a high-contrast screen like the SI Black Diamond, Firehawk, Draper React, Multipix.
Those work very well in darkened bright rooms (white ceiling and walls) compared to a std 1.0 white screen, where the image gets a little washed out by the reflections.
Johnrecon is offline  
post #17 of 23 Old 08-15-2013, 06:20 AM
AVS Special Member
 
kucharsk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Louisville, CO
Posts: 3,909
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 22
My main concern is the frequency of bulb replacement/dimming, which is why I've been holding out for a decent laser projector.
kucharsk is offline  
post #18 of 23 Old 08-15-2013, 06:37 AM
Member
 
bull3001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 111
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
How does the zoom feature "Throw ratio" effect the picture quality with lens shift?
My question is in terms of placement of the projector to the screen size that can be altered by using the zoom feature?
Also does this effect the image quality like sharpness and brightness when viewing 1080p bluray content?
bull3001 is online now  
post #19 of 23 Old 08-15-2013, 04:24 PM
AVS Special Member
 
fierce_gt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,198
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 234 Post(s)
Liked: 567
Quote:
Originally Posted by kucharsk View Post

My main concern is the frequency of bulb replacement/dimming, which is why I've been holding out for a decent laser projector.

definitely depends on how you use it.

i've been keeping a plasma in my theatre room because i'm still too skiddish about the bulb replacement as well. i use the plasma for 'wasting time' viewing, and use the projector for 'i'm actually watching the screen' viewing, haha.

i think if i were to do it all over again i'd do a dual projector setup with an led/laser projector instead of the plasma.

i will say, i still think it's worth it to get a projector. if you don't have to use the projector for EVERYTHING or you aren't the kind of person to sit down in front a tv and then surf the web on your laptop, talk/text ppl on your phone, or get some paper work done and actually watch what's on screen all the time, it's definitely worth it.

Displays: Samsung PN64F8500/JVC X35
AVR: Pioneer VSX-1018AH, 5.1 audio
Sources: HTPC(Mediabrowser), PS3, XBOX360, Wii, Sony DVP-CX995V
Control: Harmony One
fierce_gt is offline  
post #20 of 23 Old 08-15-2013, 05:59 PM
Advanced Member
 
Threefiddie's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Lexington, SC
Posts: 650
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 20
to me it's like buying a Ferrari and parking it in the garage and never using it and that to me personally just seems like a waste. If i buy something to use I'm going to use it not just let it sit. but that is me. Gotta get monies worth.

Threefiddie is offline  
post #21 of 23 Old 08-15-2013, 06:20 PM
AVS Special Member
 
AV_Integrated's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Northern, VA - Washington, DC
Posts: 2,908
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 132 Post(s)
Liked: 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by bull3001 View Post

How does the zoom feature "Throw ratio" effect the picture quality with lens shift?
My question is in terms of placement of the projector to the screen size that can be altered by using the zoom feature?
Also does this effect the image quality like sharpness and brightness when viewing 1080p bluray content?
How does the use of your car affect the reliability of your car? smile.gif

Not an exact parallel, but the concept is that 'it depends on the car, and the exact use of that car, and the manufacturer build quality'...

With a projector, the lens quality is very important. A good camera, for example - a Nikon with interchangeable lenses... Go buy a good lens for that camera and you could easily spend more than you spent on the camera itself.

So, if you get a decent projector, it may have a bit of loss at some of the far extents of the zoom range or of the lens shift. Cheaper projectors could show a lot of aberration issues and focus issues as you do the same. Some manufacturers will be inconsistent, one will be pretty good, the next will be pretty poor.

The best manufacturers will be the ones using all glass elements and having them built to the highest level possible. ProjectionDesign, for example, has their glass lenses made by the same manufacturer that produces the Carl Zeiss lenses... Good stuff, but definitely more expensive. They won't have the same lens aberration issues that others may have.

It is also important to realize that as you move closer, with a projector, and you open the lens up more, the aperture will impact image quality some. Closer to a screen = sharper image. Not a ton of difference, but it can be noticeable in a long range zoom lens, and once again - depends on the manufacturer.

AV Integrated - Theater, whole house audio, and technology installation in the Washington DC metro area.
AV_Integrated is offline  
post #22 of 23 Old 08-15-2013, 06:25 PM
Senior Member
 
squigly1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 280
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I agree with threefiddie. Even if I had to replace the bulb each year and in my case I may after every 18 months I couldn't go back to watching a small screen even for non critical viewing.
squigly1 is offline  
post #23 of 23 Old 08-15-2013, 10:40 PM
AVS Special Member
 
fierce_gt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,198
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 234 Post(s)
Liked: 567
Quote:
Originally Posted by Threefiddie View Post

to me it's like buying a Ferrari and parking it in the garage and never using it and that to me personally just seems like a waste. If i buy something to use I'm going to use it not just let it sit. but that is me. Gotta get monies worth.

think of it more like not driving it in the rain, winter, or to sit in traffic. but taking it out every weekend, to some shows, and maybe a track day every now and then.

basically you use it every opportunity you get to really use it, and avoid the times when it really wouldn't be any better than the basic.

i've put over 200hrs on my x35 since i bought it in june. i only use it for critical viewing. i don't consider it a waste at all.

Displays: Samsung PN64F8500/JVC X35
AVR: Pioneer VSX-1018AH, 5.1 audio
Sources: HTPC(Mediabrowser), PS3, XBOX360, Wii, Sony DVP-CX995V
Control: Harmony One
fierce_gt is offline  
Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

Tags
Jvc Dla Rs46 Projector

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off