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post #3151 of 4133 Old 01-12-2014, 06:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwa View Post

You can set the iris's upper limit (max opening) with the X500. You just set the iris to manual mode, set the iris's opening value, then switch the iris back to one of the auto modes. It'll then open up to the max value you set in manual mode but it'll still close all the way down if the APL of the source calls for it.

Ah, right.

So what are the purported advantages of the dual iris system in the 700/RS55 models?

It's been quite a while since I've read up on it and can't quite recall.
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post #3152 of 4133 Old 01-12-2014, 07:11 PM
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I guess I will be getting a RS49 or 57. Just don't know which one yet
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post #3153 of 4133 Old 01-12-2014, 07:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

One should find out if the distributors who JVC ship to have stopped shipping or selling stock to dealers or installers. Has JVC issued a recall of unopened stock or will the distributors be required to do the firmware fix, assuming that is all .that is needed. Most dealers etc do not purchase direct from JVC, they get their units from JVC distributors.

I have already posted in the threads that JVC said the HDMI issue can be corrected by a firmware update and that JVC has the update ready. They are working on the process for implementing the update. Should not be long before we can get this issue resolved.

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post #3154 of 4133 Old 01-12-2014, 07:26 PM
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Although this is quite a screw up by JVC, it sounds from Mike's posts, and GaryB of JVC in the UK forum, that JVC are doing the right things - everything one can expect in this situation.
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post #3155 of 4133 Old 01-12-2014, 07:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

Ah, that's what I was wondering - how it gets the higher contrast numbers.

I have the RS57/700 on order, and I was curious if the smart money bought the 500, if there was unlikely to be any real-world-use advantages with the 700. I'm not sure how else the two models differ, if at all.

Also Kris, did you bother trying the new Clear Black feature? As I remember, like most who review equipment, you aren't a fan of any additional processing. But curious if you tried anyway.

Notwithstanding the info Mark posted I would not be led to conclude there is no discernible difference in a given setup for a doubling of pure on/off, but agree one's given setup may not lend itself to be seen by eye. Most of what I've seen and read over the past few years has led me to believe you do need a properly setup room (aka "bat cave or close to one), in order to see the difference and in your case Rich I guess as Mark said (in that context), only you would know that answer.

You should start a dialogue with Geof (if I were you), before you conclude the additional monies for a 700/57 would not prove worthy. In short, after he replaced his RS55 with an x55 he came to the conclusion he did lose some native contrast and was headed in the direction of an RS57 this year until some issues caused a sidetrack. Might be worth your time as he is a valued opinion on the matter. wink.gif

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post #3156 of 4133 Old 01-12-2014, 08:01 PM
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So just getting caught up on the forums from the past week, i was in Vegas for 8 days attending CES and other business, i met with JVC and they told me they were issuing a FW fix for the issues everyone is having, just curious if any of the dealers have received the fix yet, i got a few business cards from the JVC guys but figured i would ask here to see if anything has come out yet before i start sending some emails asking JVC.
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post #3157 of 4133 Old 01-12-2014, 08:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krichter1 View Post

Notwithstanding the info Mark posted I would not be led to conclude there is no discernible difference in a given setup for a doubling of pure on/off, but agree one's given setup may not lend itself to be seen by eye. Most of what I've seen and read over the past few years has led me to believe you do need a properly setup room (aka "bat cave or close to one), in order to see the difference and in your case Rich I guess as Mark said (in that context), only you would know that answer.

You should start a dialogue with Geof (if I were you), before you conclude the additional monies for a 700/57 would not prove worthy. In short, after he replaced his RS55 with an x55 he came to the conclusion he did lose some native contrast and was headed in the direction of an RS57 this year until some issues caused a sidetrack. Might be worth your time as he is a valued opinion on the matter. wink.gif

Look 3 posts above yours.
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post #3158 of 4133 Old 01-12-2014, 08:13 PM
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Didn't realize the 700 and 900 had a dual iris VS the 500 until just now. I can't see where they list anything different for the iris description. Nothing in the user's manual about this either. So since the 700 has twice the advertised contrast, this difference must be very obvious in an A-B comparison?
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post #3159 of 4133 Old 01-12-2014, 08:25 PM
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Additional Info:

· The update will require a Windows computer (Has been tested with Windows 7).
· The computer will need to have an RS232 Serial connection.
· If the computer does not have an RS232 Serial connection, then a USB>RS232 Serial Adaptor will need to be purchased.
· You will need an RS232 Null Modem Cross Cable.
. Microsoft .NET framework program may need to be updated.

Hopefully the update will be released this week.

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post #3160 of 4133 Old 01-12-2014, 09:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenC56 View Post

Didn't realize the 700 and 900 had a dual iris VS the 500 until just now. I can't see where they list anything different for the iris description. Nothing in the user's manual about this either. So since the 700 has twice the advertised contrast, this difference must be very obvious in an A-B comparison?

In the case of the dual iris projectors one has to remember that for the native contrast to be that high (manual iris mode, not dynamic) you are going to have a VERY low white level. This works out for some that can run in high lamp with a short throw to a high gain screen, but for most setups you will not be able to take advantage of this. So they are making their high contrast number by having a VERY low black floor at the expense of a low white ceiling. One of the biggest benefits of a dynamic iris system is that you can have a very good black floor while still maintaining a higher white ceiling. So for someone like me that uses the current JVC with the iris wide open to achieve my desired white level, I can't take advantage of the black floor the projector is capable of with a manual iris but with a dynamic one I can have a substantially lower black floor.

The dual iris system would be a huge benefit for those with the same system that would have taken advantage of it before. You could close it down quite a bit since you don't need that extra light and get even higher contrast numbers. But with the new dynamic iris being as effective as it seems to be so far, it would be interesting to see just how much more you would need to get a visible difference. I won't be able to test this in my setup since I don't have a high gain screen, but those that can clamp down a dual iris and still get the white level they want could certainly try it out. They would need to get both models though, a unit with a single iris and a unit with a dual iris. In the dual iris system only one iris is dynamic (the lens) whereas the one near the bulb is static. I'm sure Darin could chime in more on this, we talked about it earlier today.

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post #3161 of 4133 Old 01-12-2014, 09:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

Additional Info:

· The update will require a Windows computer (Has been tested with Windows 7).
· The computer will need to have an RS232 Serial connection.
· If the computer does not have an RS232 Serial connection, then a USB>RS232 Serial Adaptor will need to be purchased.
· You will need an RS232 Null Modem Cross Cable.
. Microsoft .NET framework program may need to be updated.

Hopefully the update will be released this week.

Mike - Any idea why the different message for correction by JVC Gary shows a non customer fix (is it because of RS232?)? eek.gif

"Unfortunately, as the update is a two-stage process and rather involved, it is not practical for users to carry it out themselves. In the UK we will make arrangements to update any units already in customers’ homes that have a problem, either by shipping the unit to JVC or by visiting the customer’s home if this is practical."

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post #3162 of 4133 Old 01-12-2014, 09:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

Look 3 posts above yours.

Not following… how is the post from Blee applicable??

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post #3163 of 4133 Old 01-12-2014, 10:18 PM
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Several points.


My comments are whether having an actual on off spec of 60,000 vs 120,000 would make a discernible difference.

The first basic answer is yes, the blacks will be less gray BUT the difference will not be great. 120,000 is still not inky black or whatever and will not look all that better than 60,000.

The big difference is what gamma one wishes to use and whether the actual on off on screen will be enough to let one use that gamma without black crush. The JVC with 120,000 native has a much better chance of letting one run a high gamma without crushing the blacks. Probably one needs about 40,000 on screen to run a gamma of 2.5. Something like that. Will a specified 60,000 let you do that with your set up, remember the JVC spec is at maximum throw and low lamp?


Second. I am not questioning what the fix will be. I am questioning what after the fix is announced you will get from your dealer. Dealer's do not get their stock from JVC. They get it from a distributor. Let's assume its user installable. Does that mean your dealer will give you a unit upon which the fix needs to be installed by you. Remember its not what JVC ships after the fix, its what distributors and dealers have in stock now before the fix. I would ask what you are getting shipped. Does it have the fix installed? If not, will the dealer open the box and do it for you? This is a serious question. Not one designed to cause trouble. Some might not want to do it themselves. I feel any dealer should be able to tell you whether the fix is in the unit to be shipped to you and if not should offer to install it for you.. JVC should publish a safe serial number, the serial number where the fix has been done.

I would not insist on one with such a serial number but I would insist that the dealer does any fix and not require you to do it unless you want to do it yourself. .

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post #3164 of 4133 Old 01-12-2014, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by krichter1 View Post



Not following… how is the post from Blee applicable??

He must have made a mistake
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post #3165 of 4133 Old 01-12-2014, 10:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

In the case of the dual iris projectors one has to remember that for the native contrast to be that high (manual iris mode, not dynamic) you are going to have a VERY low white level. This works out for some that can run in high lamp with a short throw to a high gain screen, but for most setups you will not be able to take advantage of this. So they are making their high contrast number by having a VERY low black floor at the expense of a low white ceiling. One of the biggest benefits of a dynamic iris system is that you can have a very good black floor while still maintaining a higher white ceiling. So for someone like me that uses the current JVC with the iris wide open to achieve my desired white level, I can't take advantage of the black floor the projector is capable of with a manual iris but with a dynamic one I can have a substantially lower black floor.

The dual iris system would be a huge benefit for those with the same system that would have taken advantage of it before. You could close it down quite a bit since you don't need that extra light and get even higher contrast numbers. But with the new dynamic iris being as effective as it seems to be so far, it would be interesting to see just how much more you would need to get a visible difference. I won't be able to test this in my setup since I don't have a high gain screen, but those that can clamp down a dual iris and still get the white level they want could certainly try it out. They would need to get both models though, a unit with a single iris and a unit with a dual iris. In the dual iris system only one iris is dynamic (the lens) whereas the one near the bulb is static. I'm sure Darin could chime in more on this, we talked about it earlier today.

So Kris are you suggesting anyone with a very large screen say 150" diag would be better off with the new X500 rather than an X900 to get a brighter image?
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post #3166 of 4133 Old 01-12-2014, 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

He must have made a mistake

Ric was referring Viper14 to Mike's post, not Kevin's to yours, he just quoted the wrong post smile.gif
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post #3167 of 4133 Old 01-12-2014, 10:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

Additional Info:

· The update will require a Windows computer (Has been tested with Windows 7).
· The computer will need to have an RS232 Serial connection.
· If the computer does not have an RS232 Serial connection, then a USB>RS232 Serial Adaptor will need to be purchased.
· You will need an RS232 Null Modem Cross Cable.
. Microsoft .NET framework program may need to be updated.

Hopefully the update will be released this week.

Anyone running a Lumagen is already set. Just use the null modem cable off your VP. biggrin.gif
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post #3168 of 4133 Old 01-12-2014, 11:00 PM
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Like Mike has posted, it needs to be specifically a Null Modem Cable. Seeing how most modern computers don't have an RS232 port. a USB to RS232 Serial Null Modem adapter cable is needed. I've used this one in the past and it has worked very well whenever I used it:

http://www.startech.com/Cards-Adapters/Serial-Cards-Adapters/USB-to-Null-Modem-RS232-DB9-Serial-Adapter-Cable-DCE-FTDI~ICUSB232FTN

Resellers have it for an even cheaper price.
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post #3169 of 4133 Old 01-12-2014, 11:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

All these posts about the X500R have me wondering: What's the real-world difference between the new JVC DLA-X700R, and DLA-X500R?

Several k$ is all for me; I'll be running the iris wide open.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

My comments are wether having an actual on off spec of 60,000 vs 120,000 would make a discernible difference.

The first basic answer is yes, the blacks will be less gray BUT the difference will not be great. 120,000 is still not inky black or whatever and will not look all that better than 60,000.

The big difference is what gamma one wishes to use and whether the actual on off on screen will be enough to let one use that gamma without black crush. The JVC with 120,000 native has a much better chance of letting one run a high gamma without crushing the blacks.

The only visible difference will be that you could see shadow detail that 60k:1 obscures and 120k:1 doesn't, right?

Noah
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post #3170 of 4133 Old 01-12-2014, 11:56 PM
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Hope the fix update will work with a MacBook Pro Retina under Bootcamp ...

Denon AVP-A1HD with 3D upgrade, Denon POA-A1HD, Klipsch THX Ultra 2 7.2 speakers, Oppo BDP-103D, Toshiba HD-A35, Oppo DV-983H, Samsung Satellite Receiver, JVC DLA-RS6710, Stewart Screen 16/9 Studiotek 130 G3 100", Mac Mini as a media center, NAS Synology DS 1812+, Drobo Pro 800 storage unit, Sony...
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post #3171 of 4133 Old 01-13-2014, 12:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Several k$ is all for me; I'll be running the iris wide open.
The only visible difference will be that you could see shadow detail that 60k:1 obscures and 120k:1 doesn't, right?

If you use BT1886 (which is becoming the new standard fast), the calibration will take into account your black levels to make sure you don't crush black.
Gone are the days where you couldn't target a 2.4 gamma without crushing blacks if you didn't have enough on/off.
Having more on/off allows you to have a flatter gamma curve using BT1886, or to target a 2.4 power gamma or higher, but there is no need to crush blacks.
A properly calibrated JVC will show all shadow detail that has to be shown, especially in a dedicated/light controlled room.
I used an rs45 (max native 50000:1) with BT1886 and it shows all shadow detail despite its on/off being only 35000 to 40000:1 in my set up (short throw, iris fully closed).
I'm expecting to see a significant improvement with the rs49.
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post #3172 of 4133 Old 01-13-2014, 06:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

Like Mike has posted, it needs to be specifically a Null Modem Cable. Seeing how most modern computers don't have an RS232 port. a USB to RS232 Serial Null Modem adapter cable is needed. I've used this one in the past and it has worked very well whenever I used it:

http://www.startech.com/Cards-Adapters/Serial-Cards-Adapters/USB-to-Null-Modem-RS232-DB9-Serial-Adapter-Cable-DCE-FTDI~ICUSB232FTN

Resellers have it for an even cheaper price.

Its doesn't have to be an active cable like the one linked though that is a clean solution. One can get a small electronic box that magically converts the USB out to a db 9 serial out and then you plug a RS 232 null modem cable into that. Also for other equipment, you could plug just a serial cable into the converter box. Most Lumagen owners have this set up with a null modem cable.

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post #3173 of 4133 Old 01-13-2014, 06:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Several k$ is all for me; I'll be running the iris wide open.
The only visible difference will be that you could see shadow detail that 60k:1 obscures and 120k:1 doesn't, right?

Yes. That's the game for the high on/off guys, seeing detail at low levels rather than having that detail vanish through black crush. To me its not them trying to get the a black screen to look black (that's for novices, ooh, ahhh, when the LEDS are shut off for a complete black screen) its all about having great blacks AND being able to see the detail at just above black. Not that I really care myself at seeing that detail. My primary use of my projector is sports. Gamma 2.2 not 2.4 to 2.6.

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post #3174 of 4133 Old 01-13-2014, 07:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

Like Mike has posted, it needs to be specifically a Null Modem Cable. Seeing how most modern computers don't have an RS232 port. a USB to RS232 Serial Null Modem adapter cable is needed. I've used this one in the past and it has worked very well whenever I used it:

http://www.startech.com/Cards-Adapters/Serial-Cards-Adapters/USB-to-Null-Modem-RS232-DB9-Serial-Adapter-Cable-DCE-FTDI~ICUSB232FTN

Resellers have it for an even cheaper price.

Thanks for the heads up. Found one and now I'll be ready

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post #3175 of 4133 Old 01-13-2014, 07:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Yes. That's the game for the high on/off guys, seeing detail at low levels rather than having that detail vanish through black crush. To me its not them trying to get the a black screen to look black (that's for novices, ooh, ahhh, when the LEDS are shut off for a complete black screen) its all about having great blacks AND being able to see the detail at just above black. Not that I really care myself at seeing that detail. My primary use of my projector is sports. Gamma 2.2 not 2.4 to 2.6.

Yes, for those without a lumagen or something similar though, they can get that cable for around $20. smile.gif
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post #3176 of 4133 Old 01-13-2014, 07:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

Like Mike has posted, it needs to be specifically a Null Modem Cable. Seeing how most modern computers don't have an RS232 port. a USB to RS232 Serial Null Modem adapter cable is needed. I've used this one in the past and it has worked very well whenever I used it:

http://www.startech.com/Cards-Adapters/Serial-Cards-Adapters/USB-to-Null-Modem-RS232-DB9-Serial-Adapter-Cable-DCE-FTDI~ICUSB232FTN

Resellers have it for an even cheaper price.
I second that; I've used that exact cable with my MacBook Pro running Win7 through a Parallels VM to talk to my old RS4810 and it worked great. Just make sure to install the drivers.
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post #3177 of 4133 Old 01-13-2014, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

If you use BT1886 (which is becoming the new standard fast), the calibration will take into account your black levels to make sure you don't crush black.
Gone are the days where you couldn't target a 2.4 gamma without crushing blacks if you didn't have enough on/off.
Having more on/off allows you to have a flatter gamma curve using BT1886, or to target a 2.4 power gamma or higher, but there is no need to crush blacks.
A properly calibrated JVC will show all shadow detail that has to be shown, especially in a dedicated/light controlled room.
I used an rs45 (max native 50000:1) with BT1886 and it shows all shadow detail despite its on/off being only 35000 to 40000:1 in my set up (short throw, iris fully closed).
I'm expecting to see a significant improvement with the rs49.

Did the laws of physics change? Gone are the days of needing an on off of at least X to obtain a gamma of Y. Are you serious? Of course not you big kidder. Gone are the days of using a gamma curve of 2.4 or higher because we now have a popular gamma of BT 1886 which takes into account not having enough native on off and adjusts the curve towards a lower gamma number at low levels. BTW. 35,00 on screen should be enough to use a pure 2.4 or even 2.5 curve without crushing the blacks. I could care. I watch most everything at 2.2 except movies and then I switch to 2.4 and I could care less if I crush some blacks which I don't anyway.

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post #3178 of 4133 Old 01-13-2014, 07:55 AM
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So Kris are you suggesting anyone with a very large screen say 150" diag would be better off with the new X500 rather than an X900 to get a brighter image?

The approach should be the same as any other year for a JVC. You need to have the right setup to use the full native contrast with the dual iris completely closed down. This would probably be a high power screen, short throw, high lamp. This was the case before these new models as well. But there may be other features people want from a X900 that an X500 doesn't provide. Both will probably have nearly the same light output with the iris open, it has more to do with their black floor potential. With the dynamic iris that may or may not matter. With the 4910 we were measuring nearly 400,000:1 with Auto 2 engaged and there was a CLEAR difference in black performance vs with manual iris or against my X75R. Not subtle by any stretch with low APL images.

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post #3179 of 4133 Old 01-13-2014, 07:59 AM
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Did the laws of physics change? Gone are the days of needing an on off of at least X to obtain a gamma of Y. Are you serious? Of course not you big kidder. Gone are the days of using a gamma curve of 2.4 or higher because we now have a popular gamma of BT 1886 which takes into account not having enough native on off and adjusts the curve towards a lower gamma number at low levels. BTW. 35,00 on screen should be enough to use a pure 2.4 or even 2.5 curve without crushing the blacks. I could care. I watch most everything at 2.2 except movies and then I switch to 2.4 and I could care less if I crush some blacks which I don't anyway.

Not trying to nitpick or start a fight Mark but what's the point of a 1000ES in your setup? You've mentioned many times now that you predominantely watch sports in your setup and your screen size is on the small side. Your priorities would be motion resolution (probably a good motion interpolation mode), brightness and resolution. On your screen 1080p should be MORE than enough resolution and there are a lot of bright projectors out there that would fit the bill fine. The 1000ES seems like total overkill for your situation. Not that there is anything wrong with overkill if you can swing it, I have plenty of overkill in my system for its bass performance. Just curious more than anything.

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post #3180 of 4133 Old 01-13-2014, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Did the laws of physics change? Gone are the days of needing an on off of at least X to obtain a gamma of Y. Are you serious? Of course not you big kidder. Gone are the days of using a gamma curve of 2.4 or higher because we now have a popular gamma of BT 1886 which takes into account not having enough native on off and adjusts the curve towards a lower gamma number at low levels. BTW. 35,00 on screen should be enough to use a pure 2.4 or even 2.5 curve without crushing the blacks. I could care. I watch most everything at 2.2 except movies and then I switch to 2.4 and I could care less if I crush some blacks which I don't anyway.

The laws of physics didn't change but you can now target a 2.4 gamma (part of the BT1886 standard) and be sure to be as close to a power 2.4 curve as your black level allows. So having enough on/off to reach a higher gamma isn't as crucial as it used to be, especially with the dynamic iris. This is much better than having to settle for 2.2 or crush blacks with a power 2.4. I find 2.5 and above too dark, so I never tried to target these, but with 2.4 I do crush blacks (slightly) if I don't use BT 1886. Or let's say that BT1886 allows me to show the level of shadow detail I don't want to miss smile.gif. As more and more content providers are using it to master content, it also makes sense to use it, but it's a free country...
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