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post #3241 of 4136 Old 01-14-2014, 04:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

Rich,

One thing that might help is to keep in mind that JVC has already done a great job of reducing the number of scenes where CR is a problem*. There are only so many "problem" scenes left. The percentage of these "problem" scenes where the DI will help is higher than the percentage of overall scenes where the DI will help.

I hope it is clear that the DI really isn't going to provide visible improvements for average images. I wouldn't want people to expect that. It is for some of the difficult stuff that was left.

* I know they could improve ANSI CR and help some other scenes, but I'll save that discussion for another time.

--Darin

Gotcha. I had dialed down my expectations on what the DI was going to do long ago, but then some actual visual reports sound more enthusiastic than what the sober technical language seems to suggest. So it can be a tad confusing as to what to actually expect on screen.

I presume that the distinctly "better" or deeper black levels Kris reported were using the darkest, low APL images. The new auto iris dialed the brightness/black level deeper than Kris' projector can achieve, while manipulating the gamma to maintain visibly brighter details in those scenes, for an over all look of "deeper blacks/higher contrast."

And of course, in another way the auto iris can make even lots of brighter scenes look "better" insofar as some owners of previous JVC models have dialed down the manual iris for deepest black levels, living with the trade-off of duller mixed/bright scenes. The new model will bring punch and higher ansi (just by increasing brightness and the effects of opening the iris) for those brighter scenes, keeping the darker scenes dark.

Something I've noticed occasionally with my JVC projector (RS55): Sometimes I can see effects that *look* like screen wash out, but I surmise has to do with the projector itself. I noticed this mostly because I happened to start watching a 2:35:1 movie without my masking activated. When a really bright scene came on, the 2;35:1 black bars clearly rose in brightness with the image. However, my room was virtually a "black pit" when watching - the blackest Fidelio black velvet lines every wall surface, as well as the floor right out to the viewing sofa (I sometimes lay black velvet on the rug to extend the black area under the image). Only the sofa is not pitch black velvet, but it's very dark brown material and in the "flashlight test" reflections from the sofa are undetectable to me on screen. Hence, I can't see it being the room reflections and surmise this has to do with light contamination within the optics/light engine or whatever, of the projector. Would that make sense?

(Boy, whenever I make the "mistake" of having the masking off, it reminds me I couldn't live without masking)
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post #3242 of 4136 Old 01-14-2014, 04:42 PM
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I've noticed this too. It seems to be light scatter on the screen. When using my high contrast high power da-lite screen, the "wash out" effect is almost completely eliminated. The grey base and retro-reflective nature of the screen really helps preserve ANSI contrast as much as my X90 (RS65) will allow.

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post #3243 of 4136 Old 01-14-2014, 08:01 PM
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Jvc update works BTW, Pain in the arse to implement though.

update for the hdmi issues is on the JVC support page.
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post #3244 of 4136 Old 01-14-2014, 08:04 PM
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Please post what equipment you used and any helpful hints so others can avoid the pain in the JVC HDMI issues thread. Thanks in advance from all.

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post #3245 of 4136 Old 01-14-2014, 08:13 PM
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did not work:

Thinkpad X61 laptop (Win7 64bit) -> Prolific USB -> Serial adapter (LINK) -> Lumagen NM serial cable -> RS57

worked:

Dell Optiplex 755 desktop PC (Win7 64bit) - built in serial port (changed to 57600 baud in device manager) -> Lumagen NM serial cable -> RS57 + factory instructions to the letter.
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post #3246 of 4136 Old 01-14-2014, 08:16 PM
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If your computer has a db 9 serial out, you eliminate a potential problem component, the converter, and all you need is a null modem cable.

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post #3247 of 4136 Old 01-14-2014, 08:21 PM
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there are some applications that are very sensitive with these serial converters. whenever possible, I always try to use an original serial port, especially with flashing firmware.

The problem is, they are basically gone from current PC's and laptops. I have 1/2 dozen machines here with a real serial port. this was getting done tonight one way or the other so I can finally see this projector without it locking up.

edit: it's possible the prolific adapter I used might have worked ok with Win 7 32bit.. perhaps there's an issue with the 64 bit drivers on this device and this particular app.
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post #3248 of 4136 Old 01-14-2014, 08:24 PM
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post #3249 of 4136 Old 01-14-2014, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

did not work:

Thinkpad X61 laptop (Win7 64bit) -> Prolific USB -> Serial adapter (LINK) -> Lumagen NM serial cable -> RS57

worked:

Dell Optiplex 755 desktop PC (Win7 64bit) - built in serial port (changed to 57600 baud in device manager) -> Lumagen NM serial cable -> RS57 + factory instructions to the letter.

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post #3250 of 4136 Old 01-14-2014, 08:59 PM
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Is there any way to know in advance whether a particular USB adapter would work?
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post #3251 of 4136 Old 01-14-2014, 09:06 PM
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Yes. By members posting what worked for them and what didn't. The device listed by JVC works.

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post #3252 of 4136 Old 01-14-2014, 09:10 PM
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post #3253 of 4136 Old 01-14-2014, 09:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

Because we are talking ANSI contrast. With the iris at -15, native on/off is at max, but ANSI contrast is at min. As you open the iris, your reduce native on/off but you increase ANSI contrast. And with the II, while native on/off is reduced, you still get a very decent dynamic on/off (far superior to what you would get with manual iris, even closed down).

Contrast is a combination of on/off and ANSI contrast. So losing on one end can mean a gain on the other and a better overall picture. This is why, for example, while the Sony 500ES has a much lower native on/off than the JVCs, its overall contrast is excellent except in scenes with a very low APL, where it can't compete. But in most other scenes, its better ANSI contrast means the overall contrast is excellent. Even black bars look very black, as long as there is some brightness in the picture.

The new JVCs might finally allow us to keep excellent on/off while improving ANSI contrast significantly, which is very good news as long as it doesn't come with significant and visible artifacts.

I'm wonder if this is due to the eyes iris closing when there is brightness in the picture, thus the darker parts look darker. When credits are scrolling, this is apparent , block the direct light from hitting the eyes and the previous 'good' black level looks elevated as the eyes iris opens up.

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post #3254 of 4136 Old 01-15-2014, 12:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post

I'm wonder if this is due to the eyes iris closing when there is brightness in the picture, thus the darker parts look darker. When credits are scrolling, this is apparent , block the direct light from hitting the eyes and the previous 'good' black level looks elevated as the eyes iris opens up.

This is definitely a contributing factor, which is why I said the black bars looked very dark, not were very dark, but on the Sony mixed APL scenes do have a better (compared to former gen JVCs) overall contrast due to the better ANSI contrast, so I assume it's not the only factor and the better ANSI plays a part.
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post #3255 of 4136 Old 01-15-2014, 12:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

Because we are talking ANSI contrast. With the iris at -15, native on/off is at max, but ANSI contrast is at min. As you open the iris, your reduce native on/off but you increase ANSI contrast. And with the II, while native on/off is reduced, you still get a very decent dynamic on/off (far superior to what you would get with manual iris, even closed down).

Contrast is a combination of on/off and ANSI contrast. So losing on one end can mean a gain on the other and a better overall picture. This is why, for example, while the Sony 500ES has a much lower native on/off than the JVCs, its overall contrast is excellent except in scenes with a very low APL, where it can't compete. But in most other scenes, its better ANSI contrast means the overall contrast is excellent. Even black bars look very black, as long as there is some brightness in the picture.

The new JVCs might finally allow us to keep excellent on/off while improving ANSI contrast significantly, which is very good news as long as it doesn't come with significant and visible artifacts.

I thought the ANSI contrast swing from aperture 0 to -15 was minimal on recent models. I seem to recall that the delta was much smaller than on models like the RS25/HD950 etc.

If the more important number for high APL scenes is ANSI rather than native, then this would explain why Sony's still have an edge for such scenes over JVCs.
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post #3256 of 4136 Old 01-15-2014, 02:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

I thought the ANSI contrast swing from aperture 0 to -15 was minimal on recent models. I seem to recall that the delta was much smaller than on models like the RS25/HD950 etc.

If the more important number for high APL scenes is ANSI rather than native, then this would explain why Sony's still have an edge for such scenes over JVCs.

I always found ANSI a more important value for mixed to high APL scenes (although on/off is a contributing factor to ANSI, Darin would explain this better than me), but you are correct that the delta in relation to the iris is not as important with the rs45 as it was with the rs20. With the rs20, I used to have a "thriller/sci-fi" settings with the iris as closed as possible, and a "comedy-TV" settings with the iris half open. While I never properly measured the delta on the rs45, I never felt the need to have a different setting for different types of movies, I only have a brighter setting for TV/Sport, but that's mainly to allow for a bit of ambient light and minor frame interpolation for better motion with sports.

Comparing the 500ES and the rs45 in my setup (mid-throw at the time, fixed iris fully closed for both), the rs45 had a significantly better native on/off than the Sony, but in most scenes the apparent overall contrast of the Sony was as good or better, even with the DI switched off, which I attribute to the better ANSI contrast of the Sony. Only in scenes with the lowest APL would the JVC get ahead, and not by much (remember, it's an rs45, and it's native on/off was only around 38000:1 in my setup, with black levels higher than on a higher end model).
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post #3257 of 4136 Old 01-15-2014, 03:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

did not work:

Thinkpad X61 laptop (Win7 64bit) -> Prolific USB -> Serial adapter (LINK) -> Lumagen NM serial cable -> RS57

worked:

Dell Optiplex 755 desktop PC (Win7 64bit) - built in serial port (changed to 57600 baud in device manager) -> Lumagen NM serial cable -> RS57 + factory instructions to the letter.

I have an old laptop with docking station that has RS232 ouput (i think it's also a T60 or 61). Will update when I get the projector.
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post #3258 of 4136 Old 01-15-2014, 03:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

This is definitely a contributing factor, which is why I said the black bars looked very dark, not were very dark, but on the Sony mixed APL scenes do have a better (compared to former gen JVCs) overall contrast due to the better ANSI contrast, so I assume it's not the only factor and the better ANSI plays a part.

Got ya...thanks.

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post #3259 of 4136 Old 01-15-2014, 07:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

Comparing the 500ES and the rs45 in my setup (mid-throw at the time, fixed iris fully closed for both), the rs45 had a significantly better native on/off than the Sony, but in most scenes the apparent overall contrast of the Sony was as good or better, even with the DI switched off, which I attribute to the better ANSI contrast of the Sony. Only in scenes with the lowest APL would the JVC get ahead, and not by much (remember, it's an rs45, and it's native on/off was only around 38000:1 in my setup, with black levels higher than on a higher end model).
just wondering whether the projectors were setup to about the same ft-lamberts for white.

From what I recall, when friends and I compared JVCs to Sonys a few years ago the Sonys would measure higher ANSI CR, but we had trouble seeing this with real material doing things like covering one at a time or I believe splitting the screen to watch them side by side (with one image flipped so they would show the same part of the source), but there are a lot of factors that go into what we perceive. I recall being surprised that in some scenes from Batman Begins or The Dark Knight that were bright with the city in the background it was the JVC that looked sharper.

The 500ES brings other things to the table. I'm not sure if its ANSI CR is any higher than their upper 1080p models of the last few years. My memory is that my last Sony was a little under 500:1, but don't recall if that was for the whole thing or modified ANSI with just the 4 center rectangles.

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post #3260 of 4136 Old 01-15-2014, 07:42 AM
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darin - after flashing the RS57 I took a closer look at the interrogation scene in Oblivion with auto iris 2, wide open setting in low lamp. This time I played it all the way through without stopping on specific frames to see what the iris was doing. I could definitely see the lag it takes for the iris to close down and the DG to adjust when it transitions to Morgan Freeman in the shadows. Then when it goes back to TC in the chair, I can see the whites are blown out until it adjusts.

I believe you were discussing this earlier. Did you find any specific settings that makes this a bit less obvious?
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post #3261 of 4136 Old 01-15-2014, 07:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

just wondering whether the projectors were setup to about the same ft-lamberts for white.

From what I recall, when friends and I compared JVCs to Sonys a few years ago the Sonys would measure higher ANSI CR, but we had trouble seeing this with real material doing things like covering one at a time or I believe splitting the screen to watch them side by side (with one image flipped so they would show the same part of the source), but there are a lot of factors that go into what we perceive. I recall being surprised that in some scenes from Batman Begins or The Dark Knight that were bright with the city in the background it was the JVC that looked sharper.

The 500ES brings other things to the table. I'm not sure if its ANSI CR is any higher than their upper 1080p models of the last few years. My memory is that my last Sony was a little under 500:1, but don't recall if that was for the whole thing or modified ANSI with just the 4 center rectangles.

--Darin

Unfortunately I wasn't able to A/B them, I had to put one up or the other, but both units were not connected simultaneously.
This is why I didn't try to match brightness, but rather to get the best possible performance from each mode in my setup. the JVC had an almost new lamp (160 hours with full brightness). The Sony was still brighter with the fixed iris closed to the max, and opening up the iris of the rs45 would not have been fair on the JVC, as its main advantage (better black level and better on/off would have been reduced, even if ANSI would have improved slightly).

Also while I measured on/off (native for both and dynamic for the rs45), I haven't measured ANSI contrast on either, so I'm not comparing numbers but overall impression of back to back viewing of the two projectors in the same setup, using the best settings that would apply in my setup. I'm attributing the excellent overall perceived contrast of the Sony to better ANSI contrast simply because its native on/off is quite low, but you are right that there might be other factors like more brightness on the Sony despite its max brightness being reduced to the minimum.
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post #3262 of 4136 Old 01-15-2014, 07:47 AM
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Any advice on a starting setting for the iris on my X500? My room is painted dark and completely light controlled. The PJ is short throw (about 13.5') to a 105" wide 2.35 AT screen 1.0 gain.
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post #3263 of 4136 Old 01-15-2014, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by StevenC56 View Post

Any advice on a starting setting for the iris on my X500? My room is painted dark and completely light controlled. The PJ is short throw (about 13.5') to a 105" wide 2.35 AT screen 1.0 gain.

Depends on if you're running low/hi lamp and eco or not. I have a similar setup and run in low lamp, not eco mode, and for dark movie watching I was able to clamp the manual iris all the way closed and get enough light output. Though I don't think your AI will be working at all. You might try -7 and AI mode 2 as I've good luck with this, more dynamic looking for mixed brightness scenes. Just try some different things and see what your eyes tell you...this will likely change some as your lamp ages/dims though. I'm using low lamp so that between 300-500 hours I can bump it up to hi lamp and maintain a fairly constatnt brightness.
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post #3264 of 4136 Old 01-15-2014, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

darin - after flashing the RS57 I took a closer look at the interrogation scene in Oblivion with auto iris 2, wide open setting in low lamp. This time I played it all the way through without stopping on specific frames to see what the iris was doing. I could definitely see the lag it takes for the iris to close down and the DG to adjust when it transitions to Morgan Freeman in the shadows. Then when it goes back to TC in the chair, I can see the whites are blown out until it adjusts.

I believe you were discussing this earlier. Did you find any specific settings that makes this a bit less obvious?

Zombie,

You have a PM sir. I know you're uber busy, but if you get a chance to respond it would be much appreciated. smile.gif

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post #3265 of 4136 Old 01-15-2014, 09:48 AM
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Zombie,

You have a PM sir. I know you're uber busy, but if you get a chance to respond it would be much appreciated. smile.gif

sorry my PM list is a mile long, trying to catch up... smile.gif i'll look at it later tonight.
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post #3266 of 4136 Old 01-15-2014, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

I believe you were discussing this earlier. Did you find any specific settings that makes this a bit less obvious?
For The International using either a manual position of -8 with Auto2 or enabling Super White with Contrast at 0 helped (although that reduces native on/off CR). This seems like a much dimmer sequence though. I don't have Oblivion at the moment, but I can rent it or buy it.

My gut impression is that for scenes like that and this DI implementation our choices basically come down to reducing the multiplier JVC is using, which means giving something up (lumens for white, native on/off CR, or the use of the dynamic iris).

Another use for the High Power screen smile.gif

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post #3267 of 4136 Old 01-15-2014, 10:09 AM
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sorry my PM list is a mile long, trying to catch up... smile.gif i'll look at it later tonight.

Thank you kindly. smile.gif

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post #3268 of 4136 Old 01-15-2014, 11:10 AM
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I And of course, in another way the auto iris can make even lots of brighter scenes look "better" insofar as some owners of previous JVC models have dialed down the manual iris for deepest black levels, living with the trade-off of duller mixed/bright scenes. The new model will bring punch and higher ansi (just by increasing brightness and the effects of opening the iris) for those brighter scenes, keeping the darker scenes dark.

Better " punch " to the picture was exactly what I'd expect the DI to provide. And additional flexibility in finding that balance between lumens and black levels. I'm looking forward to getting a 4910 in my theater for a demo weekend here in Northern California. Anyone that wants to come take a look ( Sacramento area ) - shoot me an email or PM.

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post #3269 of 4136 Old 01-15-2014, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

Better " punch " to the picture was exactly what I'd expect the DI to provide. And additional flexibility in finding that balance between lumens and black levels. I'm looking forward to getting a 4910 in my theater for a demo weekend here in Northern California. Anyone that wants to come take a look ( Sacramento area ) - shoot me an email or PM.

Well dang, I used to live out in Reno. That would've been a short trip. I sure do miss it out there. frown.gif

Respectfully,
Mr. Hatcher
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post #3270 of 4136 Old 01-15-2014, 12:17 PM
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Ya, Florida to Sacramento might be a bit of a drive. OTOH, you are just a hop, skip and a jump to SIM2 headquarters !

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