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post #3331 of 4136 Old 01-16-2014, 12:02 AM
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Originally Posted by krichter1 View Post

Agree… If you recall Darin that's exactly what I reported to you on The International where if I ran the iris at -3 Armin's forehead blew out rather quickly but as I clamped down to the seeming "sweet spot" of -7 (Auto 2), it seemed just about right to my eyes without sacrificing too much light output
i remember and I meant to thank you for that report.
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(although I really haven't measured anything after that conversation of how the cheaper equipment wasn't worth doing so… threw that sheet in the trash!). smile.gif
I've been meaning to test a CA813 vs a T10 to see if there are some techniques for measuring on/off CR with a CA813 that would give better accuracy for that ratio than the spec for the meter would imply. Such as measuring with no light to the CA813 and then adding that value to the black level measured from the projector (as long as the reading goes down through zero when going from the no light spot to the projector beam, like I have seen with that meter).

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post #3332 of 4136 Old 01-16-2014, 12:18 AM
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How many here have the RS67/X900 most seem to be reporting on the RS57/X700?

I have the X900 and interested in anyone who has put the X900 vs X700. rolleyes.gif
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post #3333 of 4136 Old 01-16-2014, 12:51 AM
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Originally Posted by krichter1 View Post


I put on a couple of scenes from Elysium (which I just can't seem to get people like Zombie on the bandwagon to check out for it's excellent 4K mastering…

you should feed that JVC something that will really give that iris a workout.. biggrin.gif

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post #3334 of 4136 Old 01-16-2014, 01:30 AM
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Cool video Zombie. Do you have Eden Log? The beginning is headache inducing and not encoded that well, but I suspect quite a workout for the iris.

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post #3335 of 4136 Old 01-16-2014, 06:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Hatcher View Post

Yeah, I understand where you're coming from. I myself have been in the technology industry since I got out of High School in '99; I'm 32 now. I've only had one non-technical job my entire career, and that was just a secondary job to make some extra $$$. I'm adept at tackling technical tasks myself.

However, it's just the principle of the matter. If a product I manufactured and sold to consumers turned out defective and affected most of my yield, I would feel obligated to resolve that issue for all of my affected customers at no additional charge, due to my lack of thoroughly testing the product before release. I would send a tech to your home to resolve the issue. I wouldn't even give you the option of shipping the product back to be fixed and then shipped back to you just because of how products are handled in the shipping process. Now if it wasn't a highly sensitive piece of electronics like a PJ, that would be a viable option I would offer. But in this case that would not be an option unless you specified that you wanted to handle it that way.

Plus, if a tech comes out and performs that task for you, you can rest assured that you're totally covered under warranty still.

Running any successful business is all about customer service, in my book. biggrin.gif

I agree with you, but I still wouldn't want them to touch my system. Guess I'm just paranoid that way. I also agree that I wouldn't send it back for repairs. The only way I'd send it back is for a refund. eek.gif
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post #3336 of 4136 Old 01-16-2014, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

you should feed that JVC something that will really give that iris a workout.. biggrin.gif

Wow dude… that looks like my irises when I watch PORN! eek.gif .biggrin.gif

Very cool (what I tried to do the other week but once again my gear is inferior to yours… but mine is bigger! tongue.gif )

I just want you to check out Elysium for it's beauty; not necessarily as a DI test. wink.gif

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post #3337 of 4136 Old 01-16-2014, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Toe View Post

Kris, IMO the customer should not have to contact JVC. Cables/adapters, if needed, should have been offered right off the bat to make this as painless as possible, especially when the tools needed are very specific. Just my opinion, you don't agree, no worries.
Supply ALL the necessary tools/parts to complete the job for starters.

Would that include the PC/laptop as well? What if you don't have either? I agree that what JVC has done is the best that I could rationally expect, given the circumstances. The fix is available, it appears to fix the problem, and they fixed it quickly. Of course, if I worked for JVC I'd be looking into what went wrong in the QA department. Time for a serious lessons learned pow-wow.
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post #3338 of 4136 Old 01-16-2014, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

you should feed that JVC something that will really give that iris a workout.. biggrin.gif


How is the audio/video quality on that Copenhagen blu? Good bass? Worth a spin?

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post #3339 of 4136 Old 01-16-2014, 10:00 AM
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I watched Prometheus the other night and did not notice the DI one time, very impressed. Prometheus looks gorgeous.

James Reid:D
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post #3340 of 4136 Old 01-16-2014, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Toe View Post

How is the audio/video quality on that Copenhagen blu? Good bass? Worth a spin?

Tiesto's old news. Check out Armin Van Buuren or Dash Berlin wink.gif
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post #3341 of 4136 Old 01-16-2014, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

Tiesto's old news. Check out Armin Van Buuren or Dash Berlin wink.gif

Thanks Seegs! Do either of these guys have a blu ray out? Just did a quick check and did not find anything.

Looks like that Tiesto disc does not play in region A players, bummer.

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post #3342 of 4136 Old 01-16-2014, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

There is the part about being able to shut down further, but dual irises where one is between the lens and imaging chip(s) and one is in the lens tend to improve native on/off CR better than a single iris in the lens for the same reduction in white level.

DLPs are different than LCOS, but I'll use a DLP as an example. Using round numbers from what I recall, with the Sharp 12k we could get about 1200:1 and 900 lumens with both irises open. Closing just the lens iris would reduce the white level significantly (more than half IIRC) and result in somewhere around 2000:1 on/off CR. Now closing the other iris didn't reduce the white level much more, but got close to 4000:1 on/off CR at around 300 lumens.

Those irises just had one position each. With the last JVC with dual irises I checked out each step down would close one of the irises a little more, alternating with each step to keep them in sync.

I tried to explain why I thought a dual iris in a DLP would have that kind of effect, after I modified an Optoma H79 to about 9000:1 on/off CR (but not a lot of light). I'll try again.

Let's consider a system where if we consider the cross-section of the lens where an iris would be placed as having a uniform intensity for white that is the size of a dime and a uniform intensity for black that is the size of a quarter and all from scattered light. If we put a round iris after the lamp and a round dimed sized iris for the white in the lens, then we get a certain amount of light through for white and a certain amount for black, resulting in a specific on/off CR. now what happens using ideal assumptions if we cut the iris in the lens in half? Both white and black go down to half (since area goes to half and intensity per area stays the same), leaving the same on/off CR.

However, if we then go cut the lamp iris in half such that it perfectly lines up with the lens iris, what happens? If he light for white is perfectly controlled then the white level stays the same. The white light that is being blocked by the lamp iris was blocked by lens iris before anyway. However, the same is not true for the light for black since that is scattered light and uncontrolled. By blocking half the light for black before it even gets to the imaging chips there is half as much light to scatter in the lens. With this 2nd step the area for the black going through the lens is the same, but the intensity is half as much as without the lens iris. So for this case twice as much on/off CR.

And the irises can be halved again for another doubling of on/off CR for this ideal case. Of course, real world cases don't fit that ideal (the black level through the lens isn't only random light for one), but I believe the factor I described is relevant to on/off CR increasing as dual irises are closed, if they are placed and synced correctly.

I hope that made some sense.

As far as how it relates to the single iris vs dual iris JVCs, the specs are for being able to get some advantage of the dual iris system. If both irises need to be open to get enough light then having both irises doesn't do much good (although the lamp iris may help native at manual position 0, but likely only if it is closing off some light and reducing maximum lumens). If a person could use a middle position with the RS49 they would probably get some advantage to on/off CR with a dual iris model, but I'm not sure how much.

--Darin

I really appreciate that explanation. I certainly understood that much of the increase in contrast would be due to controlling light scatter somehow via the iris, and that helps me picture it better.

One thing I've noticed with my RS55 is that as I turn down the Lens App brightness one step at a time, the alteration of the apparent brightness and contrast does not seem linear. That is, if it's open at 10, and I drop it to 9, the image may get overall a it dimmer, but the step down to 8, or 7, and the image will change more, where it doesn't look like it's overall a bit dimmer; it actually gets a bit punchier with an apparent contrast change and sometimes the highlights can actually seem to jump up a bit more. The same goes for notching the lens app open for more brightness. One or maybe two steps up will yield barely noticeable results, but then suddenly the next step will "pop" more, with an obvious adjustment in contrast.

I've guessed that this was due to the way the dual irises work and shift in relation to one another with each step manually adjusting the brightness level, so every couple of of steps there is another sweet spot combination of the two irise, where you can see the contrast actually alter.
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post #3343 of 4136 Old 01-16-2014, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Toe View Post

How is the audio/video quality on that Copenhagen blu? Good bass? Worth a spin?

my house was shaking last night, great concert that I've had for a while. It's an import but the mede8ter doesn't care where the source is from.. smile.gif

video is ok since it was filmed in 2007 but it still looked really good on the 57, the iris was getting a serious workout with the frequent APL changes.
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post #3344 of 4136 Old 01-16-2014, 10:50 AM
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Its sounds like a laser powered projector would work great for a concert. The speckle issues would be solved by the screen shaking to the music. not really but its a nice thought.

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post #3345 of 4136 Old 01-16-2014, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

i remember and I meant to thank you for that report.
I've been meaning to test a CA813 vs a T10 to see if there are some techniques for measuring on/off CR with a CA813 that would give better accuracy for that ratio than the spec for the meter would imply. Such as measuring with no light to the CA813 and then adding that value to the black level measured from the projector (as long as the reading goes down through zero when going from the no light spot to the projector beam, like I have seen with that meter).

--Darin

Thanks Darin.

I would be interested to know those results because my Mastech Lux meter would be more in line with the 813 from what I see on the specs report (better go get that thing out of trash, wipe off the crud and wait for your testing results!). biggrin.gif

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post #3346 of 4136 Old 01-16-2014, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

One thing I've noticed with my RS55 is that as I turn down the Lens App brightness one step at a time, the alteration of the apparent brightness and contrast does not seem linear. That is, if it's open at 10, and I drop it to 9, the image may get overall a it dimmer, but the step down to 8, or 7, and the image will change more, where it doesn't look like it's overall a bit dimmer; it actually gets a bit punchier with an apparent contrast change and sometimes the highlights can actually seem to jump up a bit more.
Might be interesting to look into the lens from the side as you change the iris to see if the iris in the lens is moving. My guess is that the steps where you see the most change in light output are when the lens iris changes and the steps where you see the most change in contrast ratio and when the lamp iris changes, but it does depend on which one they change first. I don't know if the step from 0 to -1 is the lens iris, but that would be my guess. My impression is that they alternative steps so if the first step down closes one a little bit the next step down closes the other iris a little bit and then alternative from there, but I don't know if that is exactly what they do or whether sometimes 2 steps in a row close the same iris.

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post #3347 of 4136 Old 01-16-2014, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by krichter1 View Post

I would be interested to know those results because my Mastech Lux meter would be more in line with the 813 from what I see on the specs report (better go get that thing out of trash, wipe off the crud and wait for your testing results!). biggrin.gif
If the meter doesn't have a reset for the zero point it would be interesting to hear what it would measure if you point it at a dark corner with essentially no visible light. Then, if that value is non-zero whether it goes up or down as you move from there to small amounts of light. The CA813 will go down to zero and then back up in that case.

Also, you should be able to estimate your on/off CR for given conditions based on what other people get with your same projector model and then see if your meter gets even close to that. I'm thinking for the manual iris case at least. These much higher on/off CRs with auto modes are a lot tougher.

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post #3348 of 4136 Old 01-16-2014, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

Might be interesting to look into the lens from the side as you change the iris to see if the iris in the lens is moving. My guess is that the steps where you see the most change in light output are when the lens iris changes and the steps where you see the most change in contrast ratio and when the lamp iris changes, but it does depend on which one they change first. I don't know if the step from 0 to -1 is the lens iris, but that would be my guess. My impression is that they alternative steps so if the first step down closes one a little bit the next step down closes the other iris a little bit and then alternative from there, but I don't know if that is exactly what they do or whether sometimes 2 steps in a row close the same iris.

--Darin

That would make a lot of sense of what I'm seeing.
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post #3349 of 4136 Old 01-16-2014, 12:27 PM
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When I calibrate my machine, do I set the manual aperture to where I want it or do I leave it wide open?

James Reid:D
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post #3350 of 4136 Old 01-16-2014, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

I really appreciate that explanation. I certainly understood that much of the increase in contrast would be due to controlling light scatter somehow via the iris, and that helps me picture it better.

One thing I've noticed with my RS55 is that as I turn down the Lens App brightness one step at a time, the alteration of the apparent brightness and contrast does not seem linear. That is, if it's open at 10, and I drop it to 9, the image may get overall a it dimmer, but the step down to 8, or 7, and the image will change more, where it doesn't look like it's overall a bit dimmer; it actually gets a bit punchier with an apparent contrast change and sometimes the highlights can actually seem to jump up a bit more. The same goes for notching the lens app open for more brightness. One or maybe two steps up will yield barely noticeable results, but then suddenly the next step will "pop" more, with an obvious adjustment in contrast.

I've guessed that this was due to the way the dual irises work and shift in relation to one another with each step manually adjusting the brightness level, so every couple of of steps there is another sweet spot combination of the two irise, where you can see the contrast actually alter.

You are correct I believe b/c my RS55 and now the 57 exhibit the same result (seems like every even clamp number moves the second iris which I believe is the closest to the light engine).

Cardoski - Personal pref of course but most here measure the clamping down to where they get about 12-14ftL on the screen.

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post #3351 of 4136 Old 01-16-2014, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by cardoski View Post

When I calibrate my machine, do I set the manual aperture to where I want it or do I leave it wide open?

The manual iris should be taken to the position that would give you the peak white ouput you're looking for and then calibrate the projector. Gamma is based on this value so it is important to have it set. The dynamic iris should be OFF since this is an offset that is used to give you the most contrast performance at a given APL. If you were to calibrate the gamma with the dynamic iris on, you would be preventing the projector from doing the shifts it needs to do to preserve the most contrast performance for a given APL level. Essentially you're undermining the intent of the feature.

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Zombie, how do the rs57 compare to the vw1000 just for 2d? From your iris video, the jvc iris looks slower than the sony?
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post #3353 of 4136 Old 01-16-2014, 01:48 PM
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Thank you krichter1 and Kris Deering, I have calibrated once already but had the Aperture wide open and set to Manuel. That was my first ever full calibration and I am itching to do it again, kinda addicting when you see the benifit.tongue.gif

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post #3354 of 4136 Old 01-16-2014, 02:10 PM
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That was my first ever full calibration and I am itching to do it again, kinda addicting when you see the benifit.tongue.gif

Can you elaborate?

Many are saying how good it looks OOTB or with simple test disc adjustments, so I wonder if it's worth spending another $500 for a professional calibration.

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post #3355 of 4136 Old 01-16-2014, 02:18 PM
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Can you elaborate?

Many are saying how good it looks OOTB or with simple test disc adjustments, so I wonder if it's worth spending another $500 for a professional calibration.

Well hard for me to say if you should spend 500 bucks. I just found that the picture looked more solid and the color looked less busy, if that makes any sense. It looks really good OOTB but can be made to look even better. I have the equipment already and the software I used was free.

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post #3356 of 4136 Old 01-16-2014, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Can you elaborate?

Many are saying how good it looks OOTB or with simple test disc adjustments, so I wonder if it's worth spending another $500 for a professional calibration.

I think with the right presets entered you should be good without a professional calibration for the first 100-200 hours. After that I would recommend a calibration. But miles may vary.

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post #3357 of 4136 Old 01-16-2014, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

I think with the right presets entered you should be good without a professional calibration for the first 100-200 hours.

Sounds good, thanks, Chris.
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

After that I would recommend a calibration. But miles may vary.

Does that account for the new-generation lamps, about which I've seen some strange and wondrous stories - after hundreds of hours, only a few % less brightness and little gamma or color shift .

Or maybe it was just gamma...

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post #3358 of 4136 Old 01-16-2014, 02:43 PM
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That is exactly why.

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post #3359 of 4136 Old 01-16-2014, 02:48 PM
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To be clear, do you mean the color does shift?

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post #3360 of 4136 Old 01-16-2014, 03:43 PM
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I haven't seen much if any color shift. What I do see is shift in grayscale (mainly on the upper end) as the bulb wears. You will start seeing a loss of red in the bulb first most likely. So far with my JVC I have had to touch up the grayscale/gamma just a bit, but color has stayed almost exactly the same. And the gamma/grayscale drift is NOTHING compared to what I've experienced with JVCs in the past.

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