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post #3511 of 4136 Old 01-20-2014, 09:06 AM
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I have velvet curtains on either side of my screen. I've had guests go up and look to see what was behind them even. Perhaps they are looking for the dead bodies of people that actually touched my screen..............eek.gifsmile.gif
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post #3512 of 4136 Old 01-20-2014, 09:07 AM
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No one tries to touch my screen, with the possible exception of younger kids of visiting friends. Because the front portion of the theater is pitch black velvet, including the speakers, the speakers can be hard to see so I'm wary of people
wandering to close to the screen area.

One family had a couple young boys, something like 9 and 6 years old. While the couple were talking with my wife in our kitchen, their sons started wrestling around in the home theater room, tossing each other on the floor near the speakers.
Just as I walked in, the 6 year old had gotten up and was walking arms outstretched toward the screen. I quickly, politely asked him not to touch the screen, and also to be careful because he was right in front of a very expensives speaker (center channel, just above floor level). He looked over at me, glanced down at the speaker, looked back at me and began to grin as he started to pull his foot back into kicking position. "Please, could you leave the room and join us in the kitchen?" His rather evil grin widened and he made a fake kick toward the speaker, and went back into kicking position, taunting me. Eventually he left with a rueful giggle.

Charming little fellow.

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post #3513 of 4136 Old 01-20-2014, 09:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

Cine4home has just released a review of the new range, including on/off and ANSI contrast measurements for the X500/X700 (rs49/rs57):

http://www.microsofttranslator.com/BV.aspx?ref=IE8Activity&a=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cine4home.de%2Fknowhow%2FCine4Home_Edition_JVC_X500_X700%2FJVC_DLA_X500_X700_C4HEd.htm

Sounds kind of like with the ILA enabled the dynamic contrast of the X500 (RS49?) and X700 (RS57?) is about the same?

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do,
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post #3514 of 4136 Old 01-20-2014, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

No one tries to touch my screen, with the possible exception of younger kids of visiting friends. Because the front portion of the theater is pitch black velvet, including the speakers, the speakers can be hard to see so I'm wary of people
wandering to close to the screen area.

One family had a couple young boys, something like 9 and 6 years old. While the couple were talking with my wife in our kitchen, their sons started wrestling around in the home theater room, tossing each other on the floor near the speakers.
Just as I walked in, the 6 year old had gotten up and was walking arms outstretched toward the screen. I quickly, politely asked him not to touch the screen, and also to be careful because he was right in front of a very expensives speaker (center channel, just above floor level). He looked over at me, glanced down at the speaker, looked back at me and began to grin as he started to pull his foot back into kicking position. "Please, could you leave the room and join us in the kitchen?" His rather evil grin widened and he made a fake kick toward the speaker, and went back into kicking position, taunting me. Eventually he left with a rueful giggle.

Charming little fellow.


eek.gif

All the kids that have been in my HT have been teens (my exes daughters and their friends) and fortunately they were all fairly well behaved. I fear having a monster in there like you describe above! tongue.gif

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post #3515 of 4136 Old 01-20-2014, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

Sounds kind of like with the ILA enabled the dynamic contrast of the X500 (RS49?) and X700 (RS57?) is about the same?


Kind of hard to get through the translation, but that is what I gathered as well. It seems dynamic contrast between the 500 and 700 was the same at 350,000:1 if I read that correctly?

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post #3516 of 4136 Old 01-20-2014, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Toe View Post


Kind of hard to get through the translation, but that is what I gathered as well. It seems dynamic contrast between the 500 and 700 was the same at 350,000:1 if I read that correctly?

 

Indeed... Then the X700s seems to be consistent with better quality parts and can all actually be calibrated... What concerns me the most is that both them and Kraine reports that not all X500 cannot be calibrated properly... Cine4home rejects the x500s that cannot be calibrated because they think it's unacceptable at this price point...

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post #3517 of 4136 Old 01-20-2014, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

No. I was talking about angular reflective screens and the gain relative to off center axis seating and not the retro reflective HP screen. My point was with an angular reflective screen, maximum gain will be when seated at the center point but by curving the screen there would be in essence center like seating for all. With a flat angular reflective, while the gain would fall off according to the half gain angle curve, at least the gain would be constant from any one position no matter where one looked. That's not picking on retro reflective, just pointing out something about angular reflective screens.

Maybe I'm misconstruing your sentence construction, but

1. A curved screen giveth to those near the center and taketh away from those at the sides

2. If AR gain were constant at any location they wouldn't hotspot, and they most certainly do, except for unity gain with good diffusivity

Noah
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post #3518 of 4136 Old 01-20-2014, 10:19 AM
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This strangely was the same last year. The X55/RS48 had cropping of green towards yellow. While the higher models of the X75/RS56 and X95/RS66 did not have this issue (or within 1dE of it). However, this still isn't ideal. Even the X700/X900 this year only JUST achieves Rec.709 compliance for Green and what we have been asking for now for several years is for the projector to be about 5% over-saturated out of the box allowing it to be brought in to perfection. This also allows for deviations as the projector panels and filters age and change slightly.

This is the second review which suggests that the X700 is not achieving double the dynamic contrast of the X500. I have been thinking about this and I think something is being missed along the way here. Fundamentally the panels in the X700 and the X500 have a similar wide open native contrast (only 15% gain with X700 which is near invisible). This was the same with the X75 and X55, and the same with the X70 and X30. The reason the X70. X75, and X700 achieve much higher contrast numbers is due to the dual aperture mechanism. However for the latest models, only one of those apertures is dynamic. The internal lamp aperture is still manual only. It occurred to me that the maximum dynamic contrast may not actually be achieved when the manual aperture is set to 0 (which is how the dynamic contrast is being measured). There is probably a sweetspot where the lamp aperture is forcefully closed somewhat (as a result of a manual offset). I would suggest it is probably around -7 at a guess. But when the manual aperture is set to 0, the difference in contrast between an X700 and X500 will be minimal and therefore no surprise at all that the dynamic contrast isn't that different either.

Either my theory is right or JVC's marketing is horribly wrong. They market the X700 as having double the dynamic contrast of the X500. I assume they haven't been stupid enough to assume this is the case because the native contrast of the X700 is double the X500 when BOTH apertures are fully closed!!
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post #3519 of 4136 Old 01-20-2014, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

With a flat angular reflective, while the gain would fall off according to the half gain angle curve, at least the gain would be constant from any one position no matter where one looked.
The peak gain would be the same between many positions, but the gain would not be constant for any viewer at any position with a flat angular reflective screen. Not the center viewer and not viewers to the side.

Consider the ST130 with a normal setup. For a viewer in the center there will be a spot in the center of the screen with about 1.3 gain. Then most of the image will have less than that, with the gain falling off towards the corners. A viewer sitting at the right edge of the screen will still get 1.3 gain, it will just be for a spot about 1/4 of the way into the image from the right side. And the left side will fall off more for them than for the center viewer.

As far as the HP, no screen is perfect, but if the HP cost the same as Stewart materials or the Black Diamond I think a lot of dealers would have been proclaiming its special properties. I would have liked some of its properties regardless of cost, but for me of course the cost makes it even more special.

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post #3520 of 4136 Old 01-20-2014, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

I assume they haven't been stupid enough to assume this is the case because the native contrast of the X700 is double the X500 when BOTH apertures are fully closed!!
I doubt the engineers would, but I think you are making a bad assumption with regard to marketing departments. smile.gif

Maybe they figured it was easier to spec it so they wouldn't have to explain why the dynamic contrast for the X700 wasn't double.

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post #3521 of 4136 Old 01-20-2014, 10:56 AM
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re dynamic CR, perhaps JVC is basing it on the fully closed iris positions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

... if the HP cost the same as Stewart materials or the Black Diamond I think a lot of dealers would have been proclaiming its special properties.

Yes, the HP's reputation has suffered greatly because it's not expensive enough.

Noah
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post #3522 of 4136 Old 01-20-2014, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

re dynamic CR, perhaps JVC is basing it on the fully closed iris positions.

It can't be with the manual offset fully closed otherwise the dynamic aperture only moves a tiny amount and won't hit anything near double the X500. That's why I suggested a middle value like -7. But my instincts suggest that would only get you somewhere between an X500 and double and nowhere near double either. To get double I think the lamp aperture has to be dynamic too!
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post #3523 of 4136 Old 01-20-2014, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

This is the second review which suggests that the X700 is not achieving double the dynamic contrast of the X500... But when the manual aperture is set to 0, the difference in contrast between an X700 and X500 will be minimal and therefore no surprise at all that the dynamic contrast isn't that different either...

Am I missing something here? Aren't we discussing that there may be little or no difference with the DI/II engaged (wasn't the number 350,000:1 not 60,000:1)? I would expect little difference with the DI enabled. However, the blacks in a typical (medium APL) scene should still benefit from the second iris (as I understand it) as long as it's set to something like -7 (or below). As an 700/900 owner I would only be concerned if the measured on/off (without the DI/II) was the same.

--Larry
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post #3524 of 4136 Old 01-20-2014, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

It can't be with the manual offset fully closed otherwise the dynamic aperture only moves a tiny amount and won't hit anything near double the X500.

OK then how about just the 2nd iris on the 700 is fully closed; then it's dynamic CR benefits from improved om/off which the 500 doesn't get.

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post #3525 of 4136 Old 01-20-2014, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

OK then how about just the 2nd iris on the 700 is fully closed; then it's dynamic CR benefits from improved om/off which the 500 doesn't get.
It would, but even if JVC allowed the user to start with the lamp iris clamped and the lens iris open the multiplier from native on/off CR to dynamic on/off CR would be smaller that way than with the lens iris going from full open to full closed and the lamp area either having no iris or an open iris.

Put another way, if the lamp iris is closed then the white level has been decreased significantly and now opening or closing the lens iris has much less effect on the white level (and in this case much less increase in dynamic on/off CR). Kind of like how the white level dropped a lot on the Sharp 12k when only one iris was closed down, then didn't drop a lot more when the other iris was also closed down.

However you cut it, I don't see the X700 getting to twice the total dynamic on/off CR capability of the X500 with only one iris moving dynamically.

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post #3526 of 4136 Old 01-20-2014, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post


OK then how about just the 2nd iris on the 700 is fully closed; then it's dynamic CR benefits from improved om/off which the 500 doesn't get.

 

The increased contrast advantage of the x700 by closing the second iris is at the cost of brightness... To really double up or almost, you have to close the iris and go down to 380 lumen. This won't be very practical for most of the users.

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post #3527 of 4136 Old 01-20-2014, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Newcomb View Post

Am I missing something here? Aren't we discussing that there may be little or no difference with the DI/II engaged (wasn't the number 350,000:1 not 60,000:1)? I would expect little difference with the DI enabled. However, the blacks in a typical (medium APL) scene should still benefit from the second iris (as I understand it) as long as it's set to something like -7 (or below). As an 700/900 owner I would only be concerned if the measured on/off (without the DI/II) was the same.

--Larry

The user doesn't get manual control of the two irises. As you decrease the manual control, both irises move alternately with each click. So you are right, you could get a better black floor with a 700/900 due to the second iris limiting the light output. But as you do this, you also then limit the range the dynamic DI will move because you have clamped the front aperture as well!

Therefore, as Darin also just mentioned, I fail to see how the X700/X900 can achieve their rated dynamic contrast claims of 1.2 and 1.5 million:1 respectively without both apertures being dynamic.
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post #3528 of 4136 Old 01-20-2014, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

Therefore, as Darin also just mentioned, I fail to see how the X700/X900 can achieve their rated dynamic contrast claims of 1.2 and 1.5 million:1 respectively without both apertures being dynamic.
I tend to take the marketing numbers with a grain of salt (so I never expected to get 7 figure dynamic ratios). That said, it doesn't make it acceptable for marketing people to exagerate (just expected).

However, I am concerned about wasting money (on the higher end models) if there's no benefit. Of course, you can always question the value vs. the cost of that benefit.smile.gif
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It seems to me JVC's claims that the new light engine gives this year's models a 10% brightness increase hasn't been born out by anyone's measurements, reviews or otherwise. Or have I missed something?

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post #3530 of 4136 Old 01-20-2014, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Maybe I'm misconstruing your sentence construction, but

1. A curved screen giveth to those near the center and taketh away from those at the sides

2. If AR gain were constant at any location they wouldn't hotspot, and they most certainly do, except for unity gain with good diffusivity

Hotspotting is relative to throw. If you measure from one fixed location you will indeed find some variation in brightness but once your throw exceeds the sprayed on gain layer, you will pretty much eliminate hotspotting. To the eye it should look uniform but to a measurement there will be some non uniformity due to I thing the non uniformity of the sprayed on gain.

Re a curved screen, and this is based on reading somewhere but I don't remember, if you are off axis you will still be sitting in a center portion of a curve equal distance (re that curve) from the edge to an equal distance toward the larger portion of the screen. I think this would increase the gain at the position of axis somewhat. Not sure of this though.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Newcomb View Post

I tend to take the marketing numbers with a grain of salt (so I never expected to get 7 figure dynamic ratios). That said, it doesn't make it acceptable for marketing people to exagerate (just expected).

However, I am concerned about wasting money (on the higher end models) if there's no benefit. Of course, you can always question the value vs. the cost of that benefit.smile.gif

If you don't buy the higher models with an aim to use the DI and have a suitable screen/projector distance etc that allows you to close the manual aperture right down, then there is a still a good argument for them. But prospective buyers who are looking to use the DI for almost all their viewing, it is starting to look like there is little gain with the higher models! Obviously as talked about previously there are other factors in the higher models like being closer to Rec.709, a colour filter which adds additional picture modes etc etc, but considering the price differential, that is a bit hard to justify.
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post #3532 of 4136 Old 01-20-2014, 03:23 PM
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Darin, you're right; I forgot dynamic CR assumes one fixed static iris settings.
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Hotspotting is relative to throw. If you measure from one fixed location you will indeed find some variation in brightness but once your throw exceeds the sprayed on gain layer, you will pretty much eliminate hotspotting. To the eye it should look uniform but to a measurement there will be some non uniformity due to I thing the non uniformity of the sprayed on gain.

Yes, that will lessen it, but your original statement is still incorrect.
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Re a curved screen, and this is based on reading somewhere but I don't remember, if you are off axis you will still be sitting in a center portion of a curve equal distance (re that curve) from the edge to an equal distance toward the larger portion of the screen. I think this would increase the gain at the position of axis somewhat. Not sure of this though.

No, anywhere off center makes the uniformity worse.

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You may be right NOAH. I just don't know.

And Darin is most always right. I think the last time he was wrong was in 2006, December the 4th. smile.gif

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post #3534 of 4136 Old 01-20-2014, 03:57 PM
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If you don't buy the higher models with an aim to use the DI and have a suitable screen/projector distance etc that allows you to close the manual aperture right down, then there is a still a good argument for them. But prospective buyers who are looking to use the DI for almost all their viewing, it is starting to look like there is little gain with the higher models! Obviously as talked about previously there are other factors in the higher models like being closer to Rec.709, a colour filter which adds additional picture modes etc etc, but considering the price differential, that is a bit hard to justify.

If you are the type of person that keeps projectors a long time, the difference between the 57 and the 6710 ( actual street price ) might be worth it just for 3 more years warranty with the 6710 over the 57.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

It seems to me JVC's claims that the new light engine gives this year's models a 10% brightness increase hasn't been born out by anyone's measurements, reviews or otherwise. Or have I missed something?

Not very often, do I get to correct Cine4home, but they stated the brightness was the same as last year's 1,300 lumens. Problem is the 48, 4810, 56 and 66 were rated for 1,200 lumens. Only the RS46 last year was rated for 1,300. This year all of them are rated 1,300 lumens.

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post #3536 of 4136 Old 01-20-2014, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Larry Newcomb View Post

I tend to take the marketing numbers with a grain of salt (so I never expected to get 7 figure dynamic ratios). That said, it doesn't make it acceptable for marketing people to exagerate (just expected).

However, I am concerned about wasting money (on the higher end models) if there's no benefit. Of course, you can always question the value vs. the cost of that benefit.smile.gif


Maximum Dynamic Contrast can only be measured with the aperture fully open/then fully closed. That’s the brightest it can get/followed by the darkest it can get. The RS57 and the RS6710 have higher specs. That’s a function of the better spec’d chips and the dual aperture light engine. With the 6710 having 150,000:1. If 1,300 lumens is the brightest and the Dynamic Contrast ratio is 1,500,000:1, then JVC is saying they could measure 1,300 lumens max. and approximately .000865 lumens fully closed. I think anyone who has seen these new projectors will agree that when they fade to black, they can get a whole lot darker than previous JVC models. At CEDIA, did not need a meter to be able to see that.

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post #3537 of 4136 Old 01-20-2014, 05:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

I've had friends go up and try touching my screen. I yell at them. mad.gif

Being from Chicago I just say nicely… "Oh… Ay… touch my screen and maybe tomorrah your brakes don't work so good"

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post #3538 of 4136 Old 01-20-2014, 06:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

Maximum Dynamic Contrast can only be measured with the aperture fully open/then fully closed. That’s the brightest it can get/followed by the darkest it can get. The RS57 and the RS6710 have higher specs. That’s a function of the better spec’d chips and the dual aperture light engine. With the 6710 having 150,000:1. If 1,300 lumens is the brightest and the Dynamic Contrast ratio is 1,500,000:1, then JVC is saying they could measure 1,300 lumens max. and approximately .000865 lumens fully closed. I think anyone who has seen these new projectors will agree that when they fade to black, they can get a whole lot darker than previous JVC models. At CEDIA, did not need a meter to be able to see that.

Yea. I bet they have a meter that can measure 0.00085.
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post #3539 of 4136 Old 01-20-2014, 06:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

It can't be with the manual offset fully closed otherwise the dynamic aperture only moves a tiny amount and won't hit anything near double the X500. That's why I suggested a middle value like -7. But my instincts suggest that would only get you somewhere between an X500 and double and nowhere near double either. To get double I think the lamp aperture has to be dynamic too!

Funny you happen to pull that clamp setting out of your ars Jon! wink.giftongue.gif

After a lot of testing… fiddling etc… I have found that same sweet spot of -7 (from last weeks owners post BTW). wink.gif

All the credit goes to Darin, having given me those scenes in the International (Armin's interview). After going between -3/-5/-10/-15 in both Auto1 & Auto2 I settled on -7 because after many different reference movie tests it was seemingly the best compromise for obvious blooming/crushing whilst keeping a decent (acceptable), FtL reading; just over 11.

And or whatever reason in my particular setup (or gear… all set for 4:2:2 in the chain), I keep going back to Enhanced video level because STD seems to crush blacks just a smidge with DI-2 on. It's certainly different than previous years but -14/+9 seems to be as close as my eyes can detect no flashing on 16. Someone had made mention the other night about watching Pacific Rim for great contrasty scenes. I've only seen it in the theater in 3D (which I thought looked fantastic), so I was curious how it looked in 2D w/ DI. Wow!! is all I can say… great inky blacks, shade detail and the color just POPd! biggrin.gif

I really have no desire to rush and calibrate this machine… it just looks excellent as is! smile.gif
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post #3540 of 4136 Old 01-20-2014, 06:31 PM
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That's an extrapolated number for the onscreen black level. Easy to measure on/off near the lens and then extrapolate the black level at the screen by using the ratio with the measured white level onscreen.
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