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post #361 of 4133 Old 09-27-2013, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

I might, I don't want to. Its will be the only projector than can get close to UHD at under $4000. Which somehow seems inexpensive. Well, you the one who said a good amount of 4K content is about to hit the market soon.

That wasn't me. Of course it depends on what one considers a good amount then it will depend on exactly what content and what a particular viewer wants to watch. And the technical quality rather than artistic quality of the material and the quality of its mode of transmission (rates, compression codecs yada yada)..

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post #362 of 4133 Old 09-27-2013, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Drexler View Post

Yes, but the iris is not static, it's dynamic.

If we use these numbers for simplicity:

Fully closed iris native contrast. 100K:1, brightness 100 lumens

Fully opened iris native contrast 30K:1, brightness 1000 lumens.

This would mean that if the iris was run in dynamic mode the native contrast in dark scenes would be close to 100k;1 and bright scenes 10k:1. However, the total dynamic contrast would be = white level in bright scene/black level in dark scene = 1000 lumens/(100 lumens/100.000) = 1 million:1. AND you would get this dynamic contrast and still get 1000 lumens! The iris opens up in bright scenes remember.

So you wouldn't choose to which degree you would have the iris closed like in todays JVC. It's dynamic and changing from scene to scene. The only settings you're selecting that's affecting contrast and brightness is the tele-zoom.

However, if the lamp is not in the lens but in front of the lamp, closing the dynamic iris would not affect the native contrast only the brightness. Then you could have a situation with a second iris in the lens that can be set independently from the dynamic iris that will affect both brightness and contrast ratio. This is not the way Sony make their projectors. They only have the lens iris that can work either in dynamic mode or in a fixed setting (which would affect CR).

In JVC's opinion, its intelligent and by inference their competitions" isn't. JVC will swallow the cyanide pill before anyone one there will agree its dynamic. smile.gif

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post #363 of 4133 Old 09-27-2013, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

In JVC's opinion, its intelligent and by inference their competitions" isn't.' JVC will swallow thecyanide pill before anyone one their will agree its dynamic. smile.gif

What's funny is about 1 day before the announcement was made, I said JVC should just make a DI and call it something else to please the bureaucrats. That's what they did, so predictable :P


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post #364 of 4133 Old 09-27-2013, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

What's funny is about 1 day before the announcement was made, I said JVC should just make a DI and call it something else to please the bureaucrats. That's what they did, so predictable :P

Why did you wait so long to make that prediction? smile.gif I think you are holding out on us.

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post #365 of 4133 Old 09-27-2013, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Geof View Post


I probably look at these machines differently tan most.....to me it is a sudo 4K machine that can accept a 4K signal but it cannot display a true 4K image. So there are obvious limitations to this machine with regard to UHD. But it still sounds like an interesting model that will tide many over until a true 4K machine become available at an acceptable price.

Exactly, that's how I'm thinking of these new models.

Presuming for sake of argument that the various additions JVC has added (better chip, DI and Clear Black processing) makes an appreciable upgrade in contrast...

I can see these as nice stop-over machines (hell, just nice projectors, outright) because:

1. The vast majority of what I watch is movies. That's why it's my Home Theater.
2. 4K movies ain't coming in significant numbers, in an affordable manner, any time soon, and even the ones that have been provided as clips have been reported as very negligible upgrades when compared to their blu-ray counterparts.
3. Contrast is generally held to be one of, if not the most important parameters in image quality (in tests, better contrast is often picked over higher resolution). A display with better contrast offers an appreciable increase in image quality across all sources - SD, DVD, HD broadcast, Blu-Ray, Games, whatever. It just makes everything better, you don't need elusive barely-there 4K to truly reap it's benefits.
4. If Sony is any example, native 4K is still a very expensive proposition for a company to produce, and I'd think that if JVC introduces native 4K machines next year, we are going to see higher prices to join that club (while maintaining the same, or better contrast, as their higher tier projectors).

So, it makes quite a bit of sense to me at this point to grab one of these new projectors this year (assuming contrast enhancements work). I can immediately enjoy the benefits of greater contrast that I've been desiring, while waiting for 4K to shake out and become as affordable as the RS55 range I tend to stay within. And that should also make more sense timing-wise because 4K source availability should finally be more prominent as well.

I think this makes the most sense if one is coming from the perspective, like me, of really valuing contrast. There are clearly people who feel quite satisfied with the contrast of their projector and so look past that
to upgrading their pixel count to 4K. But, even then, there is a bit of Pavlovian response to all this hankering for 4K. I mean, I read "4 times higher resolution" and I want that too! It's a natural geek thing to want. But, in a practical view, it just doesn't make sense to me to place such high priority on native 4K until prices are lower and content is more there. (Rich guys don't count in these real-world equations smile.gif)

(I thought at first, like many, that this may be the worst year to buy a JVC non-native 4K projector. Especially as once JVC introduces 4K next year, the non-native 4K JVC projector I'd buy this year would be a harder sell when I want to upgrade to 4K. But then I realized that can be flipped around: since JVC DIDN'T introduce a 4K projector this year, there isn't that competition and E-shift is all there is for people wanting a JVC, so it's probably better to sell my current E-shift model this year, before JVC introduces 4K).)
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post #366 of 4133 Old 09-27-2013, 09:51 AM
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Plus One. You are on a roll. smile.gif

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post #367 of 4133 Old 09-27-2013, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

With a dynamic irris, you should not have to close the fixed iris to get increased contrast. It should be a win/win situation, if the dynamic iris works well.

Hopefully win-win, but the issue is still that the dynamic IRIS lowers the black floor and white peak at a somewhat unpredictable rate from frame to frame, whereas the static aperture lowers both in all frames.

So I don't think the DI can fully replace the static aperture in the same part of the lens element that stops light scatter, because the amount of light scatter allowed to escape would still be variable depending on the reaction of the IRIS, because the white peak still has to be whatever we ultimately calibrated it to. The reaction of the DI would be limited by the aggressiveness of the algorithm which is limited by the affects to the visible changes of intrascene peaks/floor shifts from frame to frame, which thereby limits the consistency of the reduction of light scatter, and unless viewing a full black only pattern, you would lose the efficiency of reduction of light scatter in all the other scenes that the DI was not as reactive in.

Maybe that is why most Dynamic Irises aren't built into the static aperture of the lens, but are outside of the elements so that the light scatter reduction can still be maintained regardless of the position of the DI?


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post #368 of 4133 Old 09-27-2013, 10:07 AM
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This is the risk associated with bing a partially HDMI 2 device now. Will it be fully compliant at some point or do we need wait next year model.
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post #369 of 4133 Old 09-27-2013, 10:09 AM
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Maybe when the dynamic iris is turned on the manual iris is completely opened up and the dynamic iris does its thing. If JVC gives the user more control then the dynamic range of the iris is dependent on where the manual iris is set. I sure hope someone today can ask JVC what the user options/settings on the dynamic iris are besides just on/off. Can't wait to hear from people who get to see it in action as well.

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post #370 of 4133 Old 09-27-2013, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by mbw23air View Post

Maybe when the dynamic iris is turned on the manual iris is completely opened up and the dynamic iris does its thing.

Maybe, but that doesn't help the problem of losing the consistent reduction of light scatter that the fixed irises provide to give the JVC its maximum contrast, all it does is say, ok well the native on/off and ANSI contrast are going to be sacrificed when we turn the DI on, so that we can now use the DI smile.gif

If that is true, it would somewhat cancel the benefit out.

Let's say the JVC at max FIXED IRIS Open can do 15,000:1 native on/off and fully closed 50,000:1 native on/off. You're already hitting the limitations of the DI, especially since I consider dynamic contrast to be 1/2 to 1/4th as effective as Native on/off at best even with the best Irises. For instance, if a JVC is setup to do 25,000:1 on/off without a DI, I consider that in order to match this result, another projector should have almost half that amount of Native (let;s say 10,000:1), even if this other projector's Iris could do a 5x multiplier (whereas 3x is more realistic).

Enabling the DI would then only help people that had to open the aperture because they needed the picture brighter, and it would be of no benefit to people that were shooting from farthest throw with the manual aperture fully closed (because we still want to have control over the manual aperture to adjust brightness).


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post #371 of 4133 Old 09-27-2013, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

Maybe, but that doesn't help the problem of losing the consistent reduction of light scatter that the fixed irises provide to give the JVC its maximum contrast, all it does is say, ok well the native on/off and ANSI contrast are going to be sacrificed so that we can now use the DI smile.gif

Hmmmmmm......hopefully we will hear from someone who can ask JVC or possibly get to play with the remote to see what options are in the menu. Are you thinking of upgrading to a new JVC this year?

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post #372 of 4133 Old 09-27-2013, 10:22 AM
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It seems to me that moving to DI, with its inheritance detractors, it would be pretty clear to JVC that this needs to be implemented very carefully. If they wanted E-shift to be seamless, which it seems they have done a pretty good job of, it seems they would want DI (or whatever they are actually calling it) to do the same. I would hope that in implementing this into their line of projectors that they would have enough common sense to have something that is not going to hinder a great viewing experience.

My highest hope for this is that they will have On/Off and a variety of changes in-between to change how aggressive the DI is. If this is how they choose to tackle this I would say we have a win-win here. I think its pretty clear that we all have our preferences when it comes to these things, take the darbee for example, if it were on/off and set to 100%, there would be many who would not enjoy it as much, let's hope that this degree of variability is clear to JVC and they make this thing adjustable since its "intelligent" right?

Now who wants to go get us some more info from JVC biggrin.gif
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post #373 of 4133 Old 09-27-2013, 10:23 AM
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@MWB23
I'll go to the StarPower showrooms in Dallas to check it out first when they get it in stock, and hopefully Zombie will check out the IRIS at his home. Zombie has seen all the different Irises, so he can tell us how it works. I'm not going to jump in head first though.

Now if they gave me a DI and 4k at under $5000, yes I'll upgrade blindly without checking it. And while the others already spent over 100k keeping up with Joneses, I'll simply use the 100k to pay for for live performances, which means better resolution than 4k and better 3d too :P

Edit
Also, just to clarify, I am not saying enabling the DI won't help those with the manual aperture fully open, I am just saying it won't help as much as just closing it and putting the PJ at farthest throw, because Dynamic On/Off NOT = Native On/Off in the same measurement. Even if you measure 25,000:1 dynamic on/off, I'd rather have 25,000:1 native on/off even if the IRIS is amazing.

That said, it will be very nice to be able to place the projector at farthest throw, close the manual aperture,and enable the DI, and then hopefully finally get contrast readings well over 100,000:1 in actual viewing.


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post #374 of 4133 Old 09-27-2013, 10:32 AM
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If all the early reports are good then I'm selling my RS40 and getting the RS57. I figure even if the dynamic iris isn't implemented well I can turn it off and just use manual iris and the contrast difference alone should be a nice upgrade and getting eshift for first time along with more stable lamp and I should be set for a few years until the 4k projectors get to a reasonable price.

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post #375 of 4133 Old 09-27-2013, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbw23air View Post

If all the early reports are good then I'm selling my RS40 and getting the RS57. I figure even if the dynamic iris isn't implemented well I can turn it off and just use manual iris and the contrast difference alone should be a nice upgrade and getting eshift for first time along with more stable lamp and I should be set for a few years until the 4k projectors get to a reasonable price.

What if not ALL? smile.gif Is your decision going to be like a jury deciding on the death penalty? Unaminous?

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post #376 of 4133 Old 09-27-2013, 10:41 AM
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Cannot speak for him, but my decision will purely be lunanimous.


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post #377 of 4133 Old 09-27-2013, 10:43 AM
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We knew that. But thanks for reinterating.

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post #378 of 4133 Old 09-27-2013, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

What if not ALL? smile.gif Is your decision going to be like a jury deciding on the death penalty? Unaminous?

smile.gif If even one person says they don't like the power cord on the new models then I'm not getting it. Ok, ok, my wording was bad. I forgot you were policing the forums these last few days as I have read you not giving any free passes to anyone. I thought I could slip by with that comment unnoticed. Damn, I admit my mistake and was hoping I could slip by with just a warning, I promise I won't do it again......sir......please wink.gif

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post #379 of 4133 Old 09-27-2013, 11:04 AM
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Not even a warning. I just asked a friendly question. I am that sort of guy. smile.gif

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post #380 of 4133 Old 09-27-2013, 11:07 AM
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Well, you just made my day. biggrin.gif

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post #381 of 4133 Old 09-27-2013, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by VBPXer View Post

Now who wants to go get us some more info from JVC biggrin.gif

No need for the smile, as there are plenty of people viewing the pjs at Cedia. There is just a lot going on and posting probably won't happen till they have some free time. Maybe tonight, but more likely Sat or Sun.

As I follow the thread, I must confess I am now just quickly skimming or not even reading the speculation. I am sure Darin or someone else is asking a bunch of questions and will give us the answers. The bigger question is how much info the JVC people in the booth have.

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post #382 of 4133 Old 09-27-2013, 11:29 AM
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Tonight is the AV Science party and lots of dinners out on the town. Better to do that then to go back to your hotel and post. You can post most anytime.

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post #383 of 4133 Old 09-27-2013, 11:30 AM
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This discussion makes me realize something that I hadn't quite grasped before - even with instantly dimmable solid state light sources pj's would still benefit from properly located mechanical DI's, for the improved native CR with closing iris.

Should be OK (reliable) with voice coil type actuation like the Planars have; what type do the Sony use?

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post #384 of 4133 Old 09-27-2013, 11:33 AM
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The bigger question is how much info the JVC people in the booth have.

Better yet, how much poking into the menu's and experimentation will they allow.

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post #385 of 4133 Old 09-27-2013, 11:38 AM
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Probably not much. It depend on the person at the controls. They do go in and show the effects of the e-shift controls. Re the DI, I suspect its not yet finalized and they won't be playing with the controls which might not be all operational yet.

Plus playing is disruotive to the general objective of showing their projectors to the general attendee base.

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post #386 of 4133 Old 09-27-2013, 01:33 PM
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Well I was WRONG. Harkness and others were correct. Ron F. in his blog reported today that based on conversations with JVC engineers, with the Intelligent Iris, the iris closes down to a much greater extent than a user could select for manual closure in the past. Harkness. You are on a roll. smile.gif

Ron F. also verified that the JVCs with 4K inputs could indeed accept UHD at 60 over a single HDMI and would be HDMI 2.0. Hover at 60, only 8 bit and 4:2:0 which is consistent with HDMI 2.0 limits. HDMI 2.0 can take 10 bits at UHD 24 and up to 12 bits at 1080p

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post #387 of 4133 Old 09-27-2013, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Well I was WRONG. Harkness and others were correct. Ron F. in his blog reported today that based on conversations with JVC engineers, with the Intelligent Iris, the iris closes down to a much greater extent than a user could select for manual closure in the past. Harkness. You are on a roll. smile.gif

Ron F. also verified that the JVCs with 4K inputs could indeed accept UHD at 60 over a single HDMI and would be HDMI 2.0. Hover at 60, only 8 bit and 4:2:0 which is consistent with HDMI 2.0 limits. HDMI 2.0 can take 10 bits at UHD 24 and up to 12 bits at 1080p

Yeah! smile.gif Now that's how I would have done it too....(oh I think I said that before!).......now folks like me running at -15......may have inky black fade to blacks...well nearly!

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post #388 of 4133 Old 09-27-2013, 02:11 PM
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Also it seems from Ron's conversation with JVC, the DI is a work in progress so we won't know for some time how it really performs

http://www.projectorreviews.com/projector-technical-blog/cedia-expo-2013-day-2.html

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post #389 of 4133 Old 09-27-2013, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post

Yeah! smile.gif Now that's how I would have done it too....(oh I think I said that before!).......now folks like me running at -15......may have inky black fade to blacks...well nearly!

Regarding full-black fade-outs, they've been much talked about by enthusiasts over the years. I really don't care much about what the screen looks like without an image - it's when an image is on screen
that I care. I want deep black levels for night scenes, sci-fi movies, etc. (I understand that full-black fade outs can imply better black levels for such material, but if a DI only offered a better full fade out and little else, it wouldn't excite me at all).
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post #390 of 4133 Old 09-27-2013, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post

Yeah! smile.gif Now that's how I would have done it too....(oh I think I said that before!).......now folks like me running at -15......may have inky black fade to blacks...well nearly!

Some say fade to black isn't that important because it may happen once or twice a movie. But when it does, it is SWEET!!!!! I was watching Star Trek a couple of weeks ago and the room went pitch black with my projector with a DI. That was the second time I ever seen that before. First time was on a CRT. It even did on Iron Man 3 that I watched yesterday. Almost every movie I watched recently had a fade to black scene.
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