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post #451 of 4136 Old 09-28-2013, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Geof View Post

All good questions....Not having HDCP 2.2 is a mistake to my way of thinking.

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EDIT: UHD BD is not yet finalized but the one piece that is key here is colorspace....if UHD BD uses Rec 709 then not having HDCP 2.2 seems like an huge oversight. However if UHD BD settles on something other than Rec709 the new JVC's would be incapable of displaying the content properly even if it was HDCP 2.2 compatible, so in this case having HDCP 2.2 probably does not matter.

Maybe JVC is not commenting on HDCP (other than to say it does not support 2.2) is that they're waiting to see what the final UHD BD spec are....

Maybe they would change so support this before they are released. But what's more important, having bt.2020 when taking a 4K signal without HDCP 2.2 or taking the 4K signal with 4k blu ray using bt.709? I know these might not do either, just curious
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post #452 of 4136 Old 09-28-2013, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

Maybe they would change so support this before they are released. But what's more important, having bt.2020 when taking a 4K signal without HDCP 2.2 or taking the 4K signal with 4k blu ray using bt.709? I know these might not do either, just curious
I think it would look odd if UHD BD was sending rec2020 but the projector is displaying Rec709. I do not know (but highly doubt) there is any sort of Rec2020-709 converter in the JVC's (Perhaps the lumagens will be able to convert colorspaces).

It may be that JVC will update HDCP to be 2.2 complaint if there aren't any colorspace issues.....I don't know if they can flash that or not....

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post #453 of 4136 Old 09-28-2013, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

So what's their position for not including HDCP 2.2?

Of course, you can always use a Redray player to show whatever content is available from Odemax or additional content suppliers. So they don't have the block busters. Of course the Redray has to be shipping by then and it costs $1700 and its only sold direct. Dealers going to love that. But it uses HDMI out with no HDCP at all.

Not entirely true.
Content coded with HDCP enforcement encryption from the Redray player will be blocked by the display (yellow screen on a Sony 4K TV) if the HDCP handshake is broken.
This we found when somebody used the Redray player and complained that some of the content shipped with the player was blocked and some not.
When powered off and on again so the HDCP handshake happened, all the content played fine.
Red confirmed that some of the content was HDCP encryptied and some was not.

I was a little surprised because I didn't know that HDCP had anything to do with any encryption in the content.
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If JVC thinks bad bulbs caused them problems, wait till UHD Blurays can't be played until next year's machines. Maybe they should put a warning label on the box and in their literature and ads. Sure that may happen.

The whole thing is a potential disaster looking for a place to happen and I think if the JVC decision maker says let's go to market without HDCP 2.2 his head will roll within a year or so for making the decision. I shudder at the potentially significant adverse financial consequences. Law suits whatever. If you aren't on a nude beach, you need to cover you posterior when lying face down in the sand.

Or do I have this wrong? I know there will be work arounds. Illegal boxes from Korea or some sort of licensed box that JVC will sell as an add on later. But why not put it in now?
I agree that this might become a headache in the future. Particularly if BDA purposefully is not warning all manufacturers now, and then next year 4K BDs can only be played on Sony and Panasonic (and maybe some other BDA member companies) displays and everybody else are left out in the cold.
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post #454 of 4136 Old 09-28-2013, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Geof View Post

I think it would look odd if UHD BD was sending rec2020 but the projector is displaying Rec709. I do not know (but highly doubt) there is any sort of Rec2020-709 converter in the JVC's (Perhaps the lumagens will be able to convert colorspaces).

It may be that JVC will update HDCP to be 2.2 complaint if there aren't any colorspace issues.....I don't know if they can flash that or not....

I would assume if 4K blu rays were being sent to a bt.709 projector, it might just look like an upscaled 2k blu ray to 4k. So, is 4K blu rays really necessary without the projector being able to display bt.2020? I know 4K color is the most important aspect of the 4K PQ. Is it that important to have HDCP 2.2? So, many questions...
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post #455 of 4136 Old 09-28-2013, 08:48 AM
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It is also possible that production quantities of HDMI 2.0/HDCP 2.2 chips are not yet available. That is what I have heard from Lumagen. What's a manufacturer to do?
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post #456 of 4136 Old 09-28-2013, 08:49 AM
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So have we had all the on-site reports and info we are going to get from CEDIA on these new projectors?
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post #457 of 4136 Old 09-28-2013, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by coolscan View Post

Not entirely true.
Content coded with HDCP enforcement encryption from the Redray player will be blocked by the display (yellow screen on a Sony 4K TV) if the HDCP handshake is broken.
This we found when somebody used the Redray player and complained that some of the content shipped with the player was blocked and some not.
When powered off and on again so the HDCP handshake happened, all the content played fine.
Red confirmed that some of the content was HDCP encryptied and some was not.

I was a little surprised because I didn't know that HDCP had anything to do with any encryption in the content.
I agree that this might become a headache in the future. Particularly if BDA purposefully is not warning all manufacturers now, and then next year 4K BDs can only be played on Sony and Panasonic (and maybe some other BDA member companies) displays and everybody else are left out in the cold.

thanks. I didn't know that about the Redray. I was banned from the Redray Forum for two years with no specific reason specified. Their bans are serious and one is even blocked from reading the forum let alone posting. But there are ways around the reading ban. A nice way to treat someone who has had a Redray on order for over 10 months.

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post #458 of 4136 Old 09-28-2013, 08:59 AM
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It is also possible that production quantities of HDMI 2.0/HDCP 2.2 chips are not yet available. That is what I have heard from Lumagen. What's a manufacturer to do?

That's true. But Sony obviously has a solution and is waiting to deliver its new projectors until the solution is at hand. JVC can wait too. Who comes first? Consumers or the economic needs of the manufacturer? not an easy question if the manufacturer waits to long in order to protect the consumer, it could be out of business and never again be able to serve the consumer. Perhaps the best solution is to promise and provide any critical upgrade later. But this presents operational nightmares when large amounts of expensive, bulky, fragile product is involved.

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post #459 of 4136 Old 09-28-2013, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

So have we had all the on-site reports and info we are going to get from CEDIA on these new projectors?

It seems like Cedia was mainly a projection bust as far as to see and experience a lot. Sony showed in meaningful action only the VPL-VW600ES. JVC showed its entire new line but basically that consisted of the same new 4K input e-shift model with varying levels of native and II contrast. Basically one new machine and even that one is still under development. JVC saved the show for AV Science Forum purposes. An II after all these years.

Epson whatever. Nothing significant new.

DP. A few reports. But nothing to bring reviewers to orgasm.


Runco. No one has reported yet.

Only so much juice available to be squeezed and no way at the show to do A/Bs or even get your own sample Blurays etc played. Not like bringing a CD to an audio show.


Its all Reds fault. They cancelled their booth and they would have been worth zillions of posts.

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post #460 of 4136 Old 09-28-2013, 09:12 AM
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I think you're being a little optimistic. Most likely only billions of posts.

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post #461 of 4136 Old 09-28-2013, 09:22 AM
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True.

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post #462 of 4136 Old 09-28-2013, 09:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

I would assume if 4K blu rays were being sent to a bt.709 projector, it might just look like an upscaled 2k blu ray to 4k. So, is 4K blu rays really necessary without the projector being able to display bt.2020? I know 4K color is the most important aspect of the 4K PQ. Is it that important to have HDCP 2.2? So, many questions...
I'm not sure.....seems to me that all of the Rec2020 colors outside of Rec 709 would be crushed to fit inside of Rec709 and I can't imagine that looking normal...That said we do not know what colorspace UHD BD will use and it may be that the final colorspace is much closer to Rec709 (or is Rec709).

Without the projector being able to accept HDCP 2.2 one cannot send any UHD content to it (and if you could I think it would look odd if there is a colorspace difference).This effectively means the JVC 4K inputs are useless with true UHD content, which leaves the only option I can think of and that's to use a capable lumagen to scale 2K to 4K. How beneficial that will be remains to be seen.

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post #463 of 4136 Old 09-28-2013, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

It seems like Cedia was mainly a projection bust as far as to see and experience a lot. Sony showed in meaningful action only the VPL-VW600ES. JVC showed its entire new line but basically that consisted of the same new 4K input e-shift model with varying levels of native and II contrast. Basically one new machine and even that one is still under development. JVC saved the show for AV Science Forum purposes. An II after all these years.

Epson whatever. Nothing significant new.

DP. A few reports. But nothing to bring reviewers to orgasm.


Runco. No one has reported yet.

Only so much juice available to be squeezed and no way at the show to do A/Bs or even get your own sample Blurays etc played. Not like bringing a CD to an audio show.


Its all Reds fault. They cancelled their booth and they would have been worth zillions of posts.


I talked to a few dealers/other folks at the show and at the AVS party last night and the general vibe was "ho-hum" as far as the new projectors go and nothing groundbreaking. The thing that I found most exciting about the JVCs in particular was the eshift which I was more impressed with than I expected (this was my first time seeing eshift). I see what Zombie and so many others talk about now with this feature giving a nice solidity to the image that you don't get with the non eshift models. I was amazed just how close I could get to the screen and the pic still looked great. If I already owned an eshift model right now, I would not be tempted at all by this years offerings TBH from what little I saw.

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post #464 of 4136 Old 09-28-2013, 09:50 AM
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So have we had all the on-site reports and info we are going to get from CEDIA on these new projectors?
I'd sure like to read more comments on the DI thing....Toe is the only one that's commented on it...Kris, Darin, Bill, anyone - any comments?

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post #465 of 4136 Old 09-28-2013, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

That's true. But Sony obviously has a solution and is waiting to deliver its new projectors until the solution is at hand.

FWIW, Sony's HDMI 2.0 chips seem to be limited to 10.2GBit/s (max speed of HDMI 1.4) instead of 18GHz. As a result at 4Kp60 they can only do 8bit 4:2:0. Seems most displays with HDMI 2.0 chips will be limited to 10.2GBit/s for now. So will there be another update for the VW500/600/1000/1100 with support for the full 18GHz speed?
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post #466 of 4136 Old 09-28-2013, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Toe View Post

I talked to a few dealers/other folks at the show and at the AVS party last night and the general vibe was "ho-hum" as far as the new projectors go and nothing groundbreaking. The thing that I found most exciting about the JVCs in particular was the eshift which I was more impressed with than I expected (this was my first time seeing eshift). I see what Zombie and so many others talk about now with this feature giving a nice solidity to the image that you don't get with the non eshift models. I was amazed just how close I could get to the screen and the pic still looked great. If I already owned an eshift model right now, I would not be tempted at all by this years offerings TBH from what little I saw.

Coming from the RS-45 like you, I also noticed how good e-shift was on an RS-55 (and assume the same on the brand new JVC's), but I figured I'll hold out a bit longer. Another big advantage on the newer JVC's (RS-46 or later) is the slightly better SAT tracking but even more so the better gamma and gray-scale OOTB.

I find the multi-point gamma calibration on my JVC RS-45 to be useless as it introduces posterization. I make the corrections to the gamma curve using the white gamma control only, as it keeps the image cleaner. As the lamp ages, I still say the JVC RS-45 is one of the hardest projectors to calibrate out of all the projectors over $2000, not the worst, but just one of them. The fact it has no CMS is another annoyance, but even though you only do gray-scale and gamma it's still ridiculous. Things are just all over the place like a mess, the gamma curves start out backwards, as the lamp ages the gray-scale is moons away from accurate, and you have to change the increments so far to get it going.

Let me put it this way, I calibrated the Benq w7000 in 15 minutes on the first attempt without even knowing the controls, and I have wasted an entire day on JVC calibrations only to scrap them due to either posterization showing up, or bad gamma results. Even my Viewsonic has one of the buggiest calibration controls, and it only took me 3 hours and I still got a better result than the JVC.

I have seen about 10 different projectors side-by-side to the RS-45, and you can always see the issues with the RS-45 calibration. That said, the posterization issues and similar often show up more on streaming content that emphasizes it, and on Blurays the calibration issues don't always show up as bad (though still there). I've split-screen the w7000 to the RS-45 and watched more than an hour, and the RS-45 has some definite issues even if the meter reads good. I no longer go for the cleanest gray-scale, I go for the cleanest overall end-result.


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post #467 of 4136 Old 09-28-2013, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

Coming from the RS-45 like you, I also noticed how good e-shift was on an RS-55 (and assume the same on the brand new JVC's), but I figured I'll hold out a bit longer. Another big advantage on the newer JVC's (RS-46 or later) is the slightly better SAT tracking but even more so the better gamma and gray-scale OOTB.

I find the multi-point gamma calibration on my JVC RS-45 to be useless as it introduces posterization. I make the corrections to the gamma curve using the white gamma control only, as it keeps the image cleaner. As the lamp ages, I don't care what others say, I still say the JVC RS-45 is one of the hardest projectors to calibrate out of all the projectors over $2000, not the worst, but just one of them. The fact it has no CMS is another annoyance, but even though you only do gray-scale and gamma it's still ridiculous.

Things are just all over the place like a mess, the gamma curves start out backwards, as the lamp ages the gray-scale is moons away from accurate, and you have to change the increments so far to get it going.

Let me put it this way, I calibrated the Benq w7000 in 15 minutes on the first attempt without even knowing the controls, and I have wasted an entire day on JVC calibrations only to scrap them due to either posterization showing up, or bad gamma results. Even my Viewsonic has one of the buggiest calibration controls, and it only took me 3 hours and I still got a better result than the JVC.

That is interesting. Guess it is time to check out how far my calibration has drifted on my 45! I have not checked it since I calibrated it last Jan or Feb whenever it was. It still subjectively looks great, but sounds like it has probably drifted considerably from what you are saying. I will check it out at some point soon and thanks for the info. I will be sure to make gamma adjustments in the Lumagen instead of the 45 for reasons you mention.

I still have not calibrated my 7000 for 2d OR 3d! redface.gif I need to get to that! I really only use it for 3d these days and even that is rare as my 3d interest in general is not what it used to be (but I still do enjoy it for a change up at times).

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post #468 of 4136 Old 09-28-2013, 10:18 AM
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You should split screen the w7000 to the RS-45, especially using OOTB modes, unless I am just unlucky (but I seriously doubt it), because I have now seen just about every issue that I previously read about. Look at all the extra posterization, I think this is what some people have reported as being NOISE on the JVC's, it's not noise it's bad gamma response. You can see it even if you calibrate a standard gamma. I just stopped going by the meter and adjust the white-point by eye with another projector split-screen, and then adjust the gray-scale. I got a much consistently cleaner image using a split-screen technique over the meter.

I even remember when Art @ PR said the JVC had blues in dark scenes (and I was thinking no they dont), well I found that bug accidentally. If you change the gray-scale to a certain point, the blue gamma point at 10 IRE on the gamma suddenly skyrockets out of place and makes everything at 5-10 IRE completely blue or purple. I would say, ok maybe it's only my RS-45, but then I've read too many other people had the same problem. Another ISF cert calibrator agreed with me, that the RS-45 individual gamma points are useless due to posterization. That said, these problems do not show up in all viewing, but this projector would be that better if it didn't have these issues.


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post #469 of 4136 Old 09-28-2013, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

I talked to a few dealers/other folks at the show and at the AVS party last night and the general vibe was "ho-hum" as far as the new projectors go and nothing groundbreaking. The thing that I found most exciting about the JVCs in particular was the eshift which I was more impressed with than I expected (this was my first time seeing eshift). I see what Zombie and so many others talk about now with this feature giving a nice solidity to the image that you don't get with the non eshift models. I was amazed just how close I could get to the screen and the pic still looked great. If I already owned an eshift model right now, I would not be tempted at all by this years offerings TBH from what little I saw.

But I assume you were glad you went and had a good time?

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post #470 of 4136 Old 09-28-2013, 10:26 AM
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The noise I see is not posterization. If I turn RNR noise filter on up to 1 it takes care of the noise I see, but at it's default 0 it's there. Place a static image on your screen (like this website), turn sharpness to 0, noise filters to 0, all other processing to off or zero. Walk up to your screen and take a close look at a white background or something similar and you will see dancing noise. It's been there on the X3, X30, and the X55R. It's sometimes noticeable during real world content but for the most part a non-issue but the image does appear less "clean" with it there compared to something like a good DLP which requires no enhancement or noise filter to get rid of the issue (because it isn't there). I wouldn't mind RNC to be on but it can lessen actual film grain present in the source with its enabled.

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post #471 of 4136 Old 09-28-2013, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof View Post

I'm not sure.....seems to me that all of the Rec2020 colors outside of Rec 709 would be crushed to fit inside of Rec709 and I can't imagine that looking normal...That said we do not know what colorspace UHD BD will use and it may be that the final colorspace is much closer to Rec709 (or is Rec709).

Without the projector being able to accept HDCP 2.2 one cannot send any UHD content to it (and if you could I think it would look odd if there is a colorspace difference).This effectively means the JVC 4K inputs are useless with true UHD content, which leaves the only option I can think of and that's to use a capable lumagen to scale 2K to 4K. How beneficial that will be remains to be seen.

Crushed is the WRONG word. A projector that did not support whatever the color space is and it won't be2020, would simply have to move any color outside the space to the last closest color within the supported space. It would be a recoding by the projector.

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post #472 of 4136 Old 09-28-2013, 10:29 AM
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I should not have the posterization issue using the Lumagen though, correct? Are you going to hang onto your 45 for another year?

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post #473 of 4136 Old 09-28-2013, 10:32 AM
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If the marketing folks said to engineering, this year your babies need to take UHD sources in, then why would engineering then handicap the ability to do so by omitting HDCP 2.2 considering many sources won't display unless the projector has it? The jury is leaning heavily my way. You need a better argument. smile.gif

As an Engineer myself, I'm quite used to Marketing/Sales making promises that I then can't deliver to my customers (just so they can get a sale). wink.gif

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post #474 of 4136 Old 09-28-2013, 10:33 AM
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@SEEGS
I don't have any dancing noise unless I am just not seeing what you are saying, but finding the points where the JVC is cleanest on the gamma and gray-scale on the RS-45 is everything. Did you determine all this without using a meter, gamma or very minor posterization issues can be pretty much invisible to the eye in most scenes and only highlight noise in certain ways.

I would take your JVC to another electrical outlet in a different house, use a different HDMI cable, and a different source and see if you still see this dancing noise. It can show up on more sensitive projectors and not others if there is a problem. Maybe your eyes are just better tuned to the noise frequency of the way the JVC generates white or other colors are generated, sort of like how some can see RBE.

I definitely do not see dancing noise.


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post #475 of 4136 Old 09-28-2013, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post

FWIW, Sony's HDMI 2.0 chips seem to be limited to 10.2GBit/s (max speed of HDMI 1.4) instead of 18GHz. As a result at 4Kp60 they can only do 8bit 4:2:0. Seems most displays with HDMI 2.0 chips will be limited to 10.2GBit/s for now. So will there be another update for the VW500/600/1000/1100 with support for the full 18GHz speed?

I have read this too. Sony and JVC are only using 10.2 speed hdmi. Apparently the new Panasonic 4k led set is able to be fed all 18GHz. Is this going to be a problem when future 4k blu ray comes out? Perhaps the players will allow the user to set color space in the menus (rec 2020, rec 709, DCI). Or will the limited bandwidth prevent playback altogether of a 4k disc?
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post #476 of 4136 Old 09-28-2013, 10:39 AM
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Without the projector being able to accept HDCP 2.2 one cannot send any UHD content to it (and if you could I think it would look odd if there is a colorspace difference).This effectively means the JVC 4K inputs are useless with true UHD content, which leaves the only option I can think of and that's to use a capable lumagen to scale 2K to 4K. How beneficial that will be remains to be seen.

So, without the new JVC's having HDCP 2.2 for future UHD blu-ray, you couldn't send the UHD signal for the JVC to display using eshift to display it and without a new 4K Lumagen to scale it you would have to send down scaled 2K signal from UHD blu-ray to JVC and just have it upscale to UHD/4k using eshift? Have I got this right taking into consideration of what we currently know or expect from the upcoming UHD blu-ray format? Excuse me if I butchered what is UHD and what is 4K.

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post #477 of 4136 Old 09-28-2013, 10:40 AM
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There is no way any existing projector display technology can support the full 2020 color space. I don't think sources or display devices will any time soon be able to do that.

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post #478 of 4136 Old 09-28-2013, 10:45 AM
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The noise I see is not posterization. If I turn RNC noise filter on up to 1 it takes care of the noise I see, but at it's default 0 it's there. Place a static image on your screen (like this website), turn sharpness to 0, noise filters to 0, all other processing to off or zero. Walk up to your screen and take a close look at a white background or something similar and you will see dancing noise. It's been there on the X3, X30, and the X55R. It's sometimes noticeable during real world content but for the most part a non-issue but the image does appear less "clean" with it there compared to something like a good DLP which requires no enhancement or noise filter to get rid of the issue (because it isn't there). I wouldn't mind RNC to be on but it can lessen actual film grain present in the source with its enabled.

I'm not trying to be a smarty pants, but that noise really sounds like line or frequency interference getting into the JVC. Dancing noise is the classic symptom.


Quick and Easy Shelf Mount Method for both one projector or dual stacks

Web Calculator v023 & v025
- Quick Peak at the new upcoming calculator
**Current Projector Calculator** -- http://www.eliteprojectorcalculator.com

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post #479 of 4136 Old 09-28-2013, 10:45 AM
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But I assume you were glad you went and had a good time?



Absolutely! biggrin.gif Cedia is always a trip and had a great time. It was great meeting a few people at the AVS party who I have never met in person as well, but have seen/talked to at times on here over the years. Hope you can make it next year Mark as it would be great to meet you.

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post #480 of 4136 Old 09-28-2013, 10:54 AM
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I'll be there. And I am serious about hosting an awards dinner for the Sony ES people. The past and present ES product managers starting with the one when the 1000ES was introduced, Sony Dave, and the ES head projector engineer.

I am thinking of plaques with a mounted salami and titled the Marky Sony No Baloney Award. If I can get AV Science Forun permission, I would call it the AVS Forum Sony No Baloney Award.

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