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post #541 of 4133 Old 09-29-2013, 09:39 AM
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So, why do bt.2020 only apply to 4k? From certain distances, some won't benefit from the extra resolution but they will from the color, so why can't 1080p projectors do the same?
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post #542 of 4133 Old 09-29-2013, 09:43 AM
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They potentially might, but it wouldn't be worth it to have to re-design all the standards for what is already used, it's simpler to bundle them with the new 4k standards. Otherwise, you're just re-designing everything in the chain before 4k. I could be wrong, but I suspect if 4k becomes a widespread format (like in 5-10 years) that the medium might be able to send the enhanced color space to both 4k and newer 1080p devices, that is of course only if future 1080p devices support the 2020 spec.


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post #543 of 4133 Old 09-29-2013, 09:50 AM
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You would have to recode and remaster everything done at rec709 to 2020 and I think the expanded space would make color banding much more visable if bit lengthy were not expanded as well. And if TH is correct that rec709 includes most of the organic colors we normally see, what's the point?

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post #544 of 4133 Old 09-29-2013, 09:53 AM
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Well obviously the video device itself would need to support the higher bit-rates as well to get the full advantages of all the different 4k stuff that will be bound into the spec (not just the wider gamut).

I think it's another thing the Manufacturers can sell a TV as having a newer feature, and they are always looking for a way to convince people to replace their video devices. So for instance, 4k in 5 years will still be more expensive than 1080p, just like 720p is a little cheaper still on TV sets. It's all about selling the next line up, not always about does it really improve the image.


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post #545 of 4133 Old 09-29-2013, 09:56 AM
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Yeah I was just thinking about that last night as I watched some of the original star trek series (Blu-Ray) on my RS55. And then some clips from sci-fi movies like Prometheus.
I was experimenting looking at the effects of brightening and dimming the image via the iris. As usual, making the image brighter increases the perception of clarity, detail, color richness, image "punch" and realism, as well
as image contrast. The contrast may be measuring less when opening the iris, but perceptually my eyes detect the brighter areas as brighter more distinctly than I see the darker areas get lighter, so it looks like the overall contrast is improving. I love this effect to be sure, but of course an issue is if you keep getting brighter and brighter, the effect of raising the black levels becomes more evident once you are viewing lower APL images. So it's always a trade off.

I tend to like the image fairly bright for the punchiness of the image, but I'm so cognizent of bulb dimming that I tend to keep the iris well below open, because I want head room to increase the brightness as the bulb ages. (In other words, I don't want to start of getting used to as bright an image as possible, noticing it dimming over time, and having no recourse left to brighten it. If I get used to a somewhat dimmer image, then I can raise the brightness as the bulb ages OR as I increase image size).

But, anyway, I was left scratching my head wondering if compromise is inevitable, what would I prefer? A more consistently brighter image with all the goodies that go with it and live with less quality for lowest APL scenes, or dimmer with better low APL scenes. I was sort of leaning toward greater brightness last night, which actually got me thinking of the new Sony 4K and it's higher brightness. There was an interesting review of the earlier
Sony VPLW1000 against the JVC E-shift projector with both projectors projecting on the same screen (covering and uncovering each lens). The author reported the Sony seemed to blow away the JVC in punch, contrast and detail. But when the light output between the two was equalized, that difference disappeared. Which speaks to the potency of brightness alone.

But, the nightscapes you mention Jon can look "more believable," that is nigher in contrast with the city lights cutting through the darkness, when I brighten the image. It's the lowest APL images that tend to suffer from raising the brightness the most.

Now you know why I love my Lumis so much - it has that bright picture punch, and can muster an honest 24,000:1 contrast. Got back last night from Cedia, had dinner, and watched Oblivion. Came to the conclusion that the Lumis still rocks. If I was in the market for a bright projector today, the VW600 or 1100 would be my choice ( if you can afford it ). On a smaller screen, the JVC's would be plenty bright though - depends on screen size. Back to writing up my Cedia report. Later.

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post #546 of 4133 Old 09-29-2013, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

So, why do bt.2020 only apply to 4k? From certain distances, some won't benefit from the extra resolution but they will from the color, so why can't 1080p projectors do the same?

ITU Rec BT.2020 is the UHD (both 4K and 8K) standard while Rec BT.709 is the HD standard. So by definition BT.2020 does not apply to HD video formats (i.e., 720p, 1080i and 1080p). As for new 4K projectors actually supporting BT.2020 , one area that it appears neither JVC nor Sony is currently supporting is the very wide colorspace (gamut) defined for UHD. While the new Sony and JVC projectors can support wider colorspace than used for HD, as defined by rec. 709, it is very difficult for lamp based projectors to provide the super wide colorspace defined by BT.2020 without use of internal filters that would substantially reduce the light output of the projector. The wider colorspace for UHD will be easier to produce with LED or Laser based light engines.

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post #547 of 4133 Old 09-29-2013, 10:02 AM
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And with the abandoning of plasmas and everyone going to edge lit by LEDs, panels are getting worse. They are getting cheaper, but at the great cost of performance with respect to video quality. Joe Consumer would never know better.

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post #548 of 4133 Old 09-29-2013, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

ITU Rec BT.2020 is the UHD (both 4K and 8K) standard while Rec BT.709 is the HD standard. So by definition BT.2020 does not apply to HD video formats (i.e., 720p, 1080i and 1080p). As for new 4K projectors actually supporting BT.2020 , one area that it appears neither JVC nor Sony is currently supporting is the very wide colorspace (gamut) defined for UHD. While the new Sony and JVC projectors can support wider colorspace than used for HD, as defined by rec. 709, it is very difficult for lamp based projectors to provide the super wide colorspace defined by BT.2020 without use of internal filters that would substantially reduce the light output of the projector. The wider colorspace for UHD will be easier to produce with LED or Laser based light engines.

So even the 4K Sony projectors probably will not be able to have the wider colorspace for bt.2020?
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post #549 of 4133 Old 09-29-2013, 10:44 AM
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I was talking a bit about this last night with an insider. While UHD does specify BT 2020 I honestly think that Hollywood may want to consider adopting DCI's color gamut for any future format. You could advertise this as the same color seen in theaters and it would still be substantially wider than REC 709 while still supporting a vast number of what display technology can already do. It would also make the pipeline far easier since the color was already set for D-Cinema. Even 4K projection in cinema today uses the DCI gamut.

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post #550 of 4133 Old 09-29-2013, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

I was talking a bit about this last night with an insider. While UHD does specify BT 2020 I honestly think that Hollywood may want to consider adopting DCI's color gamut for any future format. You could advertise this as the same color seen in theaters and it would still be substantially wider than REC 709 while still supporting a vast number of what display technology can already do. It would also make the pipeline far easier since the color was already set for D-Cinema. Even 4K projection in cinema today uses the DCI gamut.
That's not a terrible idea. My only reservation would be that DCI has a different (somewhat greener) white point.

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post #551 of 4133 Old 09-29-2013, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Geof View Post

I presume that if UHD BD specifies 2020 the material encoded on the disc would use the 2020 colorspace. I do agree that recent JVC's have a wide gamut option. It certainly may be possible to calibrate one of the available colorspaces to meet the UHD Colorspace (depending on what is ultimately specified) but barring that how would 2020 content being displayed in a 709 space look if nothing was done to widen the 709 space in the projector?
It would just mean that all of the colors that fell outside of the 709 gamut would appear desaturated. Since this would be relatively few colors anyway I'm not sure that it would make a huge difference.

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post #552 of 4133 Old 09-29-2013, 12:05 PM
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I have a feeling they will find a way to make new 1080p TV's support or accept the wider gamut of the 2020 spec eventually, even though the spec itself technically doesn't apply to 1080p. It'll be a good marketing thing, they'll call it ultra-color or super color, or something :P

They are running out of things to add to TV's to convince people to buy new sets, and 4k is going to be expensive for quite a while I expect, especially in respect to larger sized TV's.


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post #553 of 4133 Old 09-29-2013, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

It would just mean that all of the colors that fell outside of the 709 gamut would appear desaturated. Since this would be relatively few colors anyway I'm not sure that it would make a huge difference.
Thank you Tom...that is what I wanted to understand.

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post #554 of 4133 Old 09-29-2013, 01:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

I was talking a bit about this last night with an insider. While UHD does specify BT 2020 I honestly think that Hollywood may want to consider adopting DCI's color gamut for any future format. You could advertise this as the same color seen in theaters and it would still be substantially wider than REC 709 while still supporting a vast number of what display technology can already do. It would also make the pipeline far easier since the color was already set for D-Cinema. Even 4K projection in cinema today uses the DCI gamut.
Hopefully they're talking about 10 bits (or 12).

Do you have any impressions on the JVC new Intelligent Iris?


----

When eShift came out it was there were a lot of favorable reports from CEDIA viewers.....not reading much on JVC's new Intelligent Iris - I trust this means it doesn't stink and it will take some time (and non-show conditions) to fully evaluate???

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post #555 of 4133 Old 09-29-2013, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof View Post

Hopefully they're talking about 10 bits (or 12).

Do you have any impressions on the JVC new Intelligent Iris?


----

When eShift came out it was there were a lot of favorable reports from CEDIA viewers.....not reading much on JVC's new Intelligent Iris - I trust this means it doesn't stink and it will take some time (and non-show conditions) to fully evaluate???

I'm of the same opinion as Kris. If you check out his X55R review he says that e-shift doesn't make any obvious picture quality enhancements. The main thing that it does is get rid of the pixel grid which is only useful if you sit particularly close to your screen. There are some "enhancements" that are offered in the MPC menus that artificially sharpen the picture while eshift is on, but purists would leave those settings to 0.

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post #556 of 4133 Old 09-29-2013, 06:01 PM
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A purist is just someone that hides in a closet and secretly changes the sharpness control when no-one else is looking.


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post #557 of 4133 Old 09-29-2013, 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Geof View Post

Hopefully they're talking about 10 bits (or 12).

Do you have any impressions on the JVC new Intelligent Iris?

No opinions as of yet. There is no way to make any real performance claims without doing any testing. I spent about 10 minutes watching the screen in the Pro suite looking only for image pumping or obvious clipping from the iris. I didn't see anything that stood out. I can usually spot it in a few minutes with mixed material on models that don't have a good one. Even with massive shifts in APL I didn't notice any obvious artifacts or image pumping with their material.

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post #558 of 4133 Old 09-29-2013, 06:06 PM
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A purist is just someone that hides in a closet and secretly changes the sharpness control when no-one else is looking.

lol, I loved the Darblet! I use the MPC Film mode to e-shift the image. I keep the Enhance (sharpening) control to 15 and the other two processing options to 0. I'm definitely no purist and set things until I like the image. I'm not sure which gamma setting most people use on the X55R but I've been using gamma A as I find almost every other one destroys shadow detail.

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post #559 of 4133 Old 09-29-2013, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

No opinions as of yet. There is no way to make any real performance claims without doing any testing. I spent about 10 minutes watching the screen in the Pro suite looking only for image pumping or obvious clipping from the iris. I didn't see anything that stood out. I can usually spot it in a few minutes with mixed material on models that don't have a good one. Even with massive shifts in APL I didn't notice any obvious artifacts or image pumping with their material.
Thanks Kris. That's an encouraging sign.

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post #560 of 4133 Old 09-29-2013, 07:43 PM
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So I see that whenever people discuss dynamic iris implementations, they focus on whether or not you can see artifacts (pumping, clipping, etc.). But nobody is talking about whether the DI actually does anything useful to improve the picture. If the DI doesn't actually do anything significant, then of course you're not going to see artifacts. That's been my experience with older Sony and Epson implementations (HW15, VW85, and 8500UB). I never saw the point of it. It didn't hurt or help the picture in any obvious way compared to just closing the iris manually. It seems like a useless feature to me that helps inflate contrast numbers for marketing purposes but does little to help with real world content. Kind of like the crazy dynamic contrast numbers you see on LED LCD TVs.

Maybe I did't test them correctly or used the wrong material. I usually compared a space scene with manually closed iris and using dynamic and never saw any improvement in the black background behind the stars. If anything, the iris was more noticeable in brighter scenes where it made everything brighter by opening more. It made little difference in the dark scenes where I was hoping to see improvement. Toe's comments regarding still seeing gray letter-box bars in dark scenes on the new JVC backs up my limited experience regarding DI. It's nowhere near as useful as the 1.5M:1 contrast numbers imply.
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post #561 of 4133 Old 09-29-2013, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Cam Man View Post

It is also possible that production quantities of HDMI 2.0/HDCP 2.2 chips are not yet available. That is what I have heard from Lumagen. What's a manufacturer to do?

Wait for the next whet it is really ready:)
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post #562 of 4133 Old 09-29-2013, 08:28 PM
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That's true. But Sony obviously has a solution and is waiting to deliver its new projectors until the solution is at hand. JVC can wait too. Who comes first? Consumers or the economic needs of the manufacturer? not an easy question if the manufacturer waits to long in order to protect the consumer, it could be out of business and never again be able to serve the consumer. Perhaps the best solution is to promise and provide any critical upgrade later. But this presents operational nightmares when large amounts of expensive, bulky, fragile product is involved.

With 3D consumers shows that if you don`t have content a format is dead.
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post #563 of 4133 Old 09-29-2013, 08:34 PM
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FWIW, Sony's HDMI 2.0 chips seem to be limited to 10.2GBit/s (max speed of HDMI 1.4) instead of 18GHz. As a result at 4Kp60 they can only do 8bit 4:2:0. Seems most displays with HDMI 2.0 chips will be limited to 10.2GBit/s for now. So will there be another update for the VW500/600/1000/1100 with support for the full 18GHz speed?

This confirmed that it is to early to jump in these. I was interested to jump into buying a RS57 but will probably postponed that to next year.
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post #564 of 4133 Old 09-29-2013, 08:36 PM
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What is up my friend?!? Good to see you on here! Now we just need to hear from Sam and the band is back for the 2013 tour! biggrin.gif

I thought both projectors looked great, but you start seeing 1,500,000:1 dynamic contrast figures and I guess I just expected more TBH, so maybe I just had my expectations to high. Just my impression though and I would love to hear from others who saw the demo to get their thoughts. I personally cant see splurging for the 67 in light of how relatively close it is in price to the 600 Sony (MSRP at least.......I am sure street will be quite a difference between the two) and I think the 57 would be the sweet spot. Again though, lots of variables and limited material on hand so all impressions from the show should be taken with a large grain of salt as usual. I would love to go in armed with a stack of discs and have control of the projector to know exactly what is going on which is just not practical at the show unfortunately.

I had the exact same feelings going into the demo as you as far as the II, but I was pleasantly surprised by what I saw and I think you would be to assuming my limited demo time is a reliable indicator which it may or may not be once we got these home and really started watching hours of various material. Who knows........first impressions were impressive though to my eyes.

I use CMD for everything on my 7000 in 3d (I turn it off for 2d) as I personally love it, but its lowest setting does not USUALLY give off the soap opera/behind the scenes look like the JVC does to my eyes. It will be interesting to hear how the new CMD is on the JVC and if they have refined the lowest setting enough to where it feels more natural than what it currently does (IMO). Either way, I always use the JVC CMD setting 3 for anything animated and like the results, so having this option now in 3d for the new JVCs will be a useful and welcomed feature for quite a few I would think. Great they finally got this enabled for 3d in the new models.

Also, as usual, these are pre-production models so changes could be made between now and release. I wish Zombie lived close as I would love to see a real and fair comparison when he gets his hands on one! cool.gif

Thanks bro... doing fine now so it's good to be on here again with all my old pals (or is it!? eek.giftongue.gif ). Good feedback thanks Todd. A lot of us have been through this each year being spoon fed the Cedia "JVC juice" so I'm not going to get sucked in so easily this time (or am I?? . . . No damn it NO!) Still... could be a good holdover choice till 4K all shakes out... cause ain't no way I'm touchin' next years new chassis design for 4K (or am I?? . . . NO!). biggrin.gif

Whatever happens I gotta get out there and enjoy some-a-dat "HIgh Life" with you and Sam! Plus my buddy moved there this year in the tech center area so I have NO more excuses for not coming out to see you guys!

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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

kevin, they are still showing a 3D port on the back of the new models. Hopefully it's still compatible with the current IR / MV3D transmitter.

also the software for the DI wasn't finalized, so we'll have to wait for Cine4home's first impressions, hopefully soon.

Sure hope you're right about that Jason or it'd be a real hard sell for me to dump my 10 IR glasses for RF only! eek.gif


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Any DI or II will affect the gray scale changing part of it and obviously affecting color accuracy at portions of the gray scale. Pretty much not noticeable when watching. I am not use calling it as affect white balance is correct but I don't know.

HTF are you my man?

Doin' better these days my friend thanks! Been a hard 6 months with four major surgeries but each day I get stronger and stronger, so things lately are A.G.

And as usual you are correct about my misspeak but whatever the accurate term is I just don't want something which will reduce the accuracy of WB to increase a perceived level of black (hands off my gray scale or gamma man!!) wink.gif

Either way for me it'll be tempered enthusiasm with JVC's DI until I get some very trusted reviews (and after a good calibration too!). So Mark... when are you taking receipt of one of these bad boys!? biggrin.gif

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post #565 of 4133 Old 09-29-2013, 08:41 PM
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Totally off-topic, but do most of you use your HTPC's on a projector these days for these forums and general Internet reading / usage, or do you still like sit at a desk. I'm having back issues, but I cannot break the habit of using the HTPC instead of the desk, it's awful. This must be the most unhealthy posture, sitting on a reclined chair with a keyboard on the lap, and the mouse on the chair's armrest.

I am thinking I need to find a more ergonomic setup.

I tried that for some time but it just to akward to use a browser on a 119" screen.
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post #566 of 4133 Old 09-29-2013, 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

A purist is just someone that hides in a closet and secretly changes the sharpness control when no-one else is looking.

Hilarious!!
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post #567 of 4133 Old 09-29-2013, 09:04 PM
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It came out of their mouths because the marketing people only recently came out with the name Intelligent Lens Aperture. Its obviously a problem for let's call them old dogs at JVC to call an elephant a donkey merely because of marketing politics.

I have to disagree on that; Intelligent Lens Aperture may be a bit pompous, but it's accurate - it is a lens aperture, and any decent control algorithm for it can be called intelligent.
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

Now you know why I love my Lumis so much - it has that bright picture punch, and can muster an honest 24,000:1 contrast.

What do you mean by "honest"?

AFAIK the highest bative CR ever measured on a DLP is about half that.
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Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post

So I see that whenever people discuss dynamic iris implementations, they focus on whether or not you can see artifacts (pumping, clipping, etc.). But nobody is talking about whether the DI actually does anything useful to improve the picture.

+1

Can you guys who saw the JVC's say the blacks in dim scenes were better than you've seen before?

I'm reminded of the Epson LCOS w/DI seen at shows a few years ago where people were saying how good the blacks were, only to be informed that the DI wasn't on.

Noah
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post #568 of 4133 Old 09-29-2013, 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post


Can you guys who saw the JVC's say the blacks in dim scenes were better than you've seen before?

I'm reminded of the Epson LCOS w/DI seen at shows a few years ago where people were saying how good the blacks were, only to be informed that the DI wasn't on.

I don`t think we will get a clear answer ot this before someone bring this how and do a proper evaluation.
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post #569 of 4133 Old 09-29-2013, 09:14 PM
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What do you mean by "honest"?

Actually measured by a well respected projector calibrator in my theater. And no, it isn't native. That said, the black bars on my screen look as black as any JVC I've seen - including the new RS67. Really, that's all that counts - what's on the screen, and whether it looks good enough for you. My projector is good enough to make me happy.

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post #570 of 4133 Old 09-29-2013, 09:16 PM
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Can you guys who saw the JVC's say the blacks in dim scenes were better than you've seen before?

You really need to wait for in depth reviews and measurements - hard to say.

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