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post #721 of 4136 Old 10-04-2013, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

My 103D shipped out today. I wonder how eshift being fed 1080p and eshift being fed the oppo's 4K upscaling will look. Joerod likes the Oppo upscaling better than the 1000ES, so it should be very interesting.

What about Oppo scaling (for 1k) compared to the Lumagen?

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post #722 of 4136 Old 10-04-2013, 10:52 PM
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IF UHD Bluray uses HDCP 2.2 then it won't matter if JVC's solution partly meets HDMI 2.0 because JVC did not implement HDCP 2.2.

Sure it matters. There are tons of unanswered questions on UHD Blu-ray, HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2 and how they will all work together and how they will work with existing devices.

What happens when a consumer buys a shiny new UHD Blu-ray player and a bunch of shiny new UHD Blu-rays then plugs it all into their non-UHD / non-HDCP 2.0 compliant displays and/or receivers? If I remember correctly, analogue and component outputs functioned just fine with Blu-ray on release even though they couldn't support an HDCP handshake but to ship Blu-ray and not allow it to function in the existing ecosystem of devices would have been disastrous.

So, how will that be handled? Could it be like a Dolby Digital Plus stream which uses extensions where an older receiver can decode the 'core' 5.1 stream and newer receivers unlock the higher quality extensions? If so, what will be the 'core' of a UHD Blu-ray? Could the 'core' be treated as the maximum of HDMI 1.4b; 2160p24, 8bit, 4:2:0? Or perhaps the 'core' would be downgraded in resolution but retain the colour qualities like 1080p24, 10 bit or 12 bit, 4:2:2 or 4:4:4?

Perhaps, like Blu-ray, UHD Blu-ray could be introduced with a grace period during which non-HDCP 2.0 compliant devices would function?

Maybe it will be like HD-DVD where the first generation of players output 1080i, not the full 1080p that was on the discs?

Finally, when HDCP launched with Blu-ray, it was cracked within days allowing people to rip Blu-rays to their HTPCs. You could also acquire intermediary 'black boxes' which fooled the players into thinking they were getting a successful HDCP handshake.

However it is handled, I am very curious about the full capabilities of JVC's new line of projectors.



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post #723 of 4136 Old 10-05-2013, 04:28 AM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

What about Oppo scaling (for 1k) compared to the Lumagen?

According to Joerod who had both to compare, the Oppo did a much better job with upscaling to 4K
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post #724 of 4136 Old 10-05-2013, 06:24 AM
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Sure it matters. There are tons of unanswered questions on UHD Blu-ray, HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2 and how they will all work together and how they will work with existing devices.

What happens when a consumer buys a shiny new UHD Blu-ray player and a bunch of shiny new UHD Blu-rays then plugs it all into their non-UHD / non-HDCP 2.0 compliant displays and/or receivers? If I remember correctly, analogue and component outputs functioned just fine with Blu-ray on release even though they couldn't support an HDCP handshake but to ship Blu-ray and not allow it to function in the existing ecosystem of devices would have been disastrous.

So, how will that be handled? Could it be like a Dolby Digital Plus stream which uses extensions where an older receiver can decode the 'core' 5.1 stream and newer receivers unlock the higher quality extensions? If so, what will be the 'core' of a UHD Blu-ray? Could the 'core' be treated as the maximum of HDMI 1.4b; 2160p24, 8bit, 4:2:0? Or perhaps the 'core' would be downgraded in resolution but retain the colour qualities like 1080p24, 10 bit or 12 bit, 4:2:2 or 4:4:4?

Perhaps, like Blu-ray, UHD Blu-ray could be introduced with a grace period during which non-HDCP 2.0 compliant devices would function?

Maybe it will be like HD-DVD where the first generation of players output 1080i, not the full 1080p that was on the discs?

Finally, when HDCP launched with Blu-ray, it was cracked within days allowing people to rip Blu-rays to their HTPCs. You could also acquire intermediary 'black boxes' which fooled the players into thinking they were getting a successful HDCP handshake.

However it is handled, I am very curious about the full capabilities of JVC's new line of projectors, especially since I have already pre-ordered the RS57 from Craig at AV Science. (Craig, I'm that crazy canuck that's driving down to Rochester to pick it up!)

Seems like a lot of what-ifs in there. I'm sure the new JVC's will accept upscaled 1080p (to 4K)....whether from an Oppo or Lumagen. It remains to be seen if they'll accept 4k outputs from a UHD BluRay player. In fact it looks like it will not. So yeah, we can all hope that's not the case but wishing/hoping for it doesn't make it true. In that vein (and at this time) I consider these new JVC's to be nice improvements over last years models but not UHD compatible.

I also question what is gained here...
1st case: Feed 1080p to the new JVC's - they in turn upscale this to 4K, then down sample that into two 1080p sub frames.
2nd case: Feed 1080p upscaled to 4K to the JVC....they in turn downsample this into two 1080p sub frames.

The only apparent difference is what device is doing the upscaling from 1080p to 4K. So, what differences might we see? I guess this remains to be seen but I remain doubtful that there will be any meaningful differences (I do think in the case of a real 4K machines (the Sony's) any upscaling differences would be more apparent compared to the JVC 4k eshifted image).

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post #725 of 4136 Old 10-05-2013, 10:45 AM
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Okay, we are having a little trouble getting past this UHD Blu-ray thing so let me try to re-frame the conversation. Like every other Digital Rights Management scheme ever introduced by any of the media companies, ever, HDCP 2.2 will be broken, subverted or bypassed shortly after introduction.

Soooo... fast forward to a month after UHD Blu-ray has released, news has just broken that HDCP 2.2 has been broken, subverted or bypassed. I have just finished ripping my UHD Blu-ray copy of skyfall to my HTPC in 2160p24, 12 bit, 4:4:4 quality and I am about to transcode that into the best quality format that my RS57 will display. I know that the RS57 supports and is capable of displaying 2160p60, 8 bit, 4:2:0 (which is beyond the specification of HDMI 1.4b) but which of the following combinations of resolutions, bitrates and chroma is it also capable of receiving and displaying?

2160p24, 8/10/12 bit, 4:4:4/ 4:2:2/4:2:0?
1080p24, 10/12 bit, 4:4:4/ 4:2:2/4:2:0?



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post #726 of 4136 Old 10-05-2013, 11:10 AM
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Well be my guest ......I'm considering a purchase as well but I've already told myself it will not be compatible with UHD. If it is I'll be happy. If it's not then that's what I thought. No way I'm buying this years models hoping it'll be UHD compatible (by whatever means) and I certainly won't get involved with subverting or hacking HDCP or using content that has been hacked and ripped. I'd rather wait for a UHD compatible projector. YMMV!

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post #727 of 4136 Old 10-05-2013, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

According to Joerod who had both to compare, the Oppo did a much better job with upscaling to 4K

Joe must have a great memory. I sold him the Lumagen. He kept it for two or three weeks and then returned it. That was 10.5 months ago.

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post #728 of 4136 Old 10-05-2013, 11:31 AM
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Joe must have a great memory. I sold him the Lumagen. He kept it for two or three weeks and then returned it. That was 10.5 months ago.
Were the 4K upscaling Lumagen's even available 10.5 months ago????

Not trying to disparage anyone but when I read Oppo did a much better job of upscaling than a Lumagen it rings alarm bells.....Oppo may be better but much better? In fact, I've never read any posts where anyone thought Lumagen upscaling was inferior to any other upscaling solution.

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post #729 of 4136 Old 10-05-2013, 11:54 AM
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If he likes it better, he likes it better. No need of trying to provide him wrong. They got shipped yesterday and people can see for themselves. Even if its close, the Oppo is much cheaper
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post #730 of 4136 Old 10-05-2013, 11:58 AM
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Mike. Wasn't it a mini? The main problem with many is they just don't use or know how to use the many things a Lumagen can do. You can of course just put it in your system and use a few simple features like the ring free scaling. But it does so many other things that normal people could use to improve their PQ.

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post #731 of 4136 Old 10-05-2013, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

If he likes it better, he likes it better. No need of trying to provide him wrong when they got shipped yesterday and people can see for themselves. Even if its close, the Oppo is much cheaper

I don't think anyone is trying to tell him what he is seeing is wrong. We just don't want people getting the wrong interpretation of what the 103D does in terms of Darbee processing and upscaling.

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post #732 of 4136 Old 10-05-2013, 12:08 PM
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Plus 1. We are just strongly contesting the explanation he has given as to why its better. We really can't validly comment on whether it is until we see it and can test it using decent methodology. Something that Joerod either can't understand or is just plain unwilling to do.

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post #733 of 4136 Old 10-05-2013, 12:09 PM
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I don't think anyone is trying to tell him what he is seeing is wrong. We just don't want people getting the wrong interpretation of what the 103D does in terms of Darbee processing and upscaling.

If you buy something and think it is better than another product, why would you have to go through numerous steps and tests to prove to others that you like it? It seems lately people cannot express what they like if its not something most people have. You don't have to do a A/B comparison to like something. Even if he did a A/B comparison, there will still be doubters
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post #734 of 4136 Old 10-05-2013, 12:12 PM
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Plus 1. We are just strongly contesting the explanation he has given as to why its better. We really can't validly comment on whether it is until we see it and can test it using decent methodology. Something that Joerod either can't understand or is just plain unwilling to do.

Why can't you just say, OK you like it better, now let me see if it is for myself. Its obvious, he thinks its better.
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post #735 of 4136 Old 10-05-2013, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Geof View Post

Well be my guest ......I'm considering a purchase as well but I've already told myself it will not be compatible with UHD. If it is I'll be happy. If it's not then that's what I thought. No way I'm buying this years models hoping it'll be UHD compatible (by whatever means) and I certainly won't get involved with subverting or hacking HDCP or using content that has been hacked and ripped. I'd rather wait for a UHD compatible projector. YMMV!

+1 I'm buying the RS57 for use with 1080p blu-rays now for its excellent native contrast and to try eshift with hope that the new Intelligent Iris works as advertised(if not I will just turn it off). The only way you are going to be safe knowing your display will show UHD blu-rays is to wait till the specs are finalized on UHD blu-rays and then make sure your display meets those specs. Right now it doesn't sound like the new JVC's meet the HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2 specs so everything else doesn't matter. It would just be loose speculation on everyone's part as the answer isn't out there yet.

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post #736 of 4136 Old 10-05-2013, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

According to Joerod who had both to compare, the Oppo did a much better job with upscaling to 4K

Oops, I actually meant 2k/1080P.

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post #737 of 4136 Old 10-05-2013, 12:25 PM
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Around Christmas last year I picked up and Onkyo 818. The receiver claims to be able to upscale sources to 4k, as long as it's a compatible display. Would these new JVC's with the eshift-3 fit that bill? For me personally I think the mid-level design is the best bang for your buck, but due to the fact it's still not 4k, would there be some value in getting a previous year 70 model? 4K native is too expensive, and when the content is easy to obtain I will see it more pressing, instead of chasing the rabbit again. Any help would be most appreciated. I currently have a light restricted viewing area.







http://us.onkyo.com/Products/model.php?m=TX-NR818&class=Receiver&source=prodClass
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post #738 of 4136 Old 10-05-2013, 12:33 PM
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Why can't you just say, OK you like it better, now let me see if it is for myself. Its obvious, he thinks its better.

I wonder if you've forgotten the name of this forum: AVScience.

It's not a "WhateverMakesYouHappyForum." We don't want people potentially mislead about technical/engineering claims on products. Joerod's rave about the Oppo has apparently
come with some dubious technical claims about that product (which also make dubious the reports it actually would produce better Darbee image performance). It's quite possible to
root out certain false claims (e.g. by contacting manufacturers and getting more explicit information on their product) before spending the money to find out the claims were wrong.

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post #739 of 4136 Old 10-05-2013, 12:52 PM
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I actually wish that was the case but we know its not
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post #740 of 4136 Old 10-05-2013, 01:00 PM
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All recommendations are opinion based.
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post #741 of 4136 Old 10-05-2013, 01:21 PM
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All recommendations are opinion based.

No actually some opinions are fact based and some aren't.
If someone claims a company has changed it's image processing and that fact is wrong, then that person is going to simply be "wrong," whether it's his "opinion" or not.

If you don't care about fact based engineering claims, or facts/truth in general, then it really does seem you have wandered on to the wrong forum.
We are actually trying to help one another here by discussing technological claims and trying to test them. (But, if you are an "I don't really care about facts, everything is right if I feel it's true" type person, then what can someone say to you otherwise? Except that you'll be butting heads with those who care about facts, who care about being mislead about facts, and who care about not misleading others about facts).

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post #742 of 4136 Old 10-05-2013, 01:39 PM
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I don't really know how its misleading by saying one product looks better than another. What factual data can you gather from that anyways in regards to the Oppo and Lumagen? But I haven't purchased one projector on any factual data that one looks better than another. It all have been gathered from people opinions. Sony looks better than JVC, JVC looks better than Sony. DLP looks better than LCOS. Its a fact that Sony has native 4K projectors under $20K and JVC or any other brand doesn't, but that factual information doesn't lead me to anyone brand. Its all about what other opinions on how they look, like reviewers or forum owners
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post #743 of 4136 Old 10-05-2013, 01:49 PM
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I don't really know how its misleading by saying one product looks better than another. What factual data can you gather from that anyways in regards to the Oppo and Lumagen?

If it's not actually technically/physically POSSIBLE for one product to look better than another, because no change has been made to it, then it's obviously misleading to say "it looks better." Isn't that just obvious?

We can find out whether Oppo or Darbee has made an actual change to their image processing or not. That's a pretty relevant fact to the claim or "opinion" that the "new Darbee processing looks much better," right? How can you expect A to "look better" over B if there is in fact no difference between either. (Aside from pure placebo effect)?

And people who do due diligence in measuring technical claims made for products to those of us a favor who care about reality. If a manufacturer claims to have increased the native contrast of a projector by a factor of 10 then IF THAT WERE TRUE I'd be very interested in such a product. Because an objective change in the contrast performance would be readily perceptible. But if a careful viewer or reviewer actually measures the contrast and let's me know "actually, they've lied, there's no change in contrast whatsoever between this and the last model" that does me a big service...so I don't have to go through actually buying such a product, being disappointed in finding the technical claims weren't true, and having to start trying returning it etc. (It's one reason why the Widescreen Review reviewer Greg Rogers was so highly regarded, as he was so good at vetting the technical claims of manufacturers for us).

I'm amazed you do not see the value in this. And if you don't, why you'd be on a forum like this one.

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post #744 of 4136 Old 10-05-2013, 02:00 PM
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Still he said the new processing, SI VRS with the Darbee looks better to his eyes with the QDEO Marvell and external Darbee between the two oppos. With measured contrast, that doesn't mean the projector performs better. Its definitely not necessary to keep saying I don't belong on this forum. Don't understand why you feel that way
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post #745 of 4136 Old 10-05-2013, 02:04 PM
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Also, if native contrast was so important, you would upgrade to the flagship jvc model every year
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post #746 of 4136 Old 10-05-2013, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

I don't really know how its misleading by saying one product looks better than another. What factual data can you gather from that anyways in regards to the Oppo and Lumagen? But I haven't purchased one projector on any factual data that one looks better than another. It all have been gathered from people opinions. Sony looks better than JVC, JVC looks better than Sony. DLP looks better than LCOS. Its a fact that Sony has native 4K projectors under $20K and JVC or any other brand doesn't, but that factual information doesn't lead me to anyone brand. Its all about what other opinions on how they look, like reviewers or forum owners

You're missing the point. We aren't debating whether or not the image from his 103D looks better than a standalone Darblet and Sony 1000ES upscaling. We're talking about the Darblet implementation inside the 103D and whether or not it's the same processing as a standalone Darblet. Both DarbeVision and Oppo have said it's the same exact processing. JoeRod is saying the Darbee processing in the 103D has a different look to the processing inside the standalone device. We are trying to tell him it's because of other factors/processing happening inside the Oppo 103D. That is all. We aren't saying he is incorrect about the image looking better.

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post #747 of 4136 Old 10-05-2013, 02:24 PM
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You're missing the point. We aren't debating whether or not the image from his 103D looks better than a standalone Darblet and Sony 1000ES upscaling. We're talking about the Darblet implementation inside the 103D and whether or not it's the same processing as a standalone Darblet. Both DarbeVision and Oppo have said it's the same exact processing. JoeRod is saying the Darbee processing in the 103D has a different look to the processing inside the standalone device. We are trying to tell him it's because of other factors/processing happening inside the Oppo 103D. That is all. We aren't saying he is incorrect about the image looking better.

I know what you guys are saying. All I'm saying is just let him think it is. Its his opinion. Others will think its better, others won't. Most don't have the 1000ES to compare. Also, Oppo changed from the QDEO Marvell to the SI VRS
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post #748 of 4136 Old 10-05-2013, 02:27 PM
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The point of this forum is to find the science behind things. The fact is that it's the same Darbee processing. What he sees as "better" is coming from other qualities inside the 103D. We are just making that point clear so there is no confusion.

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post #749 of 4136 Old 10-05-2013, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

Still he said the new processing, SI VRS with the Darbee looks better to his eyes with the QDEO Marvell and external Darbee between the two oppos. With measured contrast, that doesn't mean the projector performs better. Its definitely not necessary to keep saying I don't belong on this forum. Don't understand why you feel that way

He is not saying that. The SI chip in the Oppo only upscales after the darbee The Marvel chip does the upsclling before the darbee and is used only up to 1080p 60. He appears also be saying that the Marvel/SI combo is better than the Sony built in deinterlacing scaling to UHD.;

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post #750 of 4136 Old 10-05-2013, 02:38 PM
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I know what you guys are saying. All I'm saying is just let him think it is. Its his opinion. Others will think its better, others won't. Most don't have the 1000ES to compare. Also, Oppo changed from the QDEO Marvell to the SI VRS[/quote

You are WRONG. They changed from another chip to the Marvel for their first level processing. they added the SI to do its upscaling to 4K after the Darbee. If you read the thread, you will see the Oppo uses a three chip solution Marvel, field gate array for the Darbee processing, and then the SI.

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