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post #181 of 4133 Old 09-10-2013, 10:26 AM
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Thanks for the clarification, Jon. I'm personally sticking with my RS4810 for a few years -- I've calibrated manually with CalMAN 5 but am looking forward to SpectraCal finally releasing their auto cal update for the '13 JVCs.
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post #182 of 4133 Old 09-10-2013, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

Okay I see the confusion on the auto-calibration.

Just to be clear though, there are 4 models in the range. CMS is on 3 of those. This year the lowest model (RS46) gets no update at all. All the CMS models do, so I assumed the auto-cal was on all three of these updated models including the RS49. Otherwise it would just be the same as last year were the 56 and 66 already had auto-cal.

But don't get too excited, the auto-cal on these models is quite peculiar. It relies on the sensor facing the projector NOT the screen. It only works with 2 sensors (Spyders). And you have to be REALLY careful with it. Because it over-writes internal tables in the projector that apparently if you wipe the base file that gets written the first time you use it, you can never get it back.

On the other hand it allows you to recalibrate built-in presets so that they are useful again. As the projector ages, not only does the bulb dim, but the panels mutate. This allows you to restore the projector to a "like new" status with the various presets which you cannot do with other models. If your interest is only with User 1, D65, Gamma 2.3, then those presets are irrelevant anyway.

I tried it once...couldn't quite comprehend what it was changing and didn't like the idea of not being able to revert back, so was hoping someone else would deep dive with this...but it hasn't got that much publicity on the forums.

Gotcha, thanks for that!
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post #183 of 4133 Old 09-10-2013, 10:42 AM
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The native contrast #'s for the top 2 models are exactly the same as last years models but the RS48 replacement, the RS49, does have a 10k contrast boost. Like others have said, the intelligent lens aperture does make it sound like an auto-iris. Maybe that is how they have increased dynamic range. Can't wait to hear reports from those of you who will get to see them at Cedia.

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post #184 of 4133 Old 09-10-2013, 11:03 AM
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The fact there are new panels and no reference to them being faster probably means they'll all retain the same speed (120hz) used since 2009. If that's the case, no upgrade for me again. Other than the new bulb that was introduced last year, as with the RS56, I see little to differentiate the RS57 from my RS55. I have Calman 5 so the autoCal functionality isn't enticing, and although eShift is nice, I don't see much value in sending 4K input to a 2K machine...It's still getting down-scaled and averaged out for the eShifted "4K" image.
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post #185 of 4133 Old 09-10-2013, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by mbw23air View Post

The native contrast #'s for the top 2 models are exactly the same as last years models but the RS48 replacement, the RS49, does have a 10k contrast boost. Like others have said, the intelligent lens aperture does make it sound like an auto-iris. Maybe that is how they have increased dynamic range. Can't wait to hear reports from those of you who will get to see them at Cedia.

Mike

It will be interesting indeed. If it really is an auto-iris, then this will be JVC's first stab at this. As many JVC owners are fairly purist, unless it is a gobsmackingly good implementation (Sony is really good these days and still not perfect), then most will end up switching it off. Also it will be interesting to understand how much difference there would be between the models with an auto-iris as the difference of 60k vs 90k:1 would become almost irrelevant with an auto-iris.

P.S The top model does get a slight boost from 130,000:1 to 140,000:1 which will be absolutely impossible to notice anyway.
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post #186 of 4133 Old 09-10-2013, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Drexler View Post

Calling those contrast numbers "extremely improved dynamic range" doesn't make any sense at all. they have hardly budged at all and i bet won't be noticeable with the naked eye. However, if 'intelligent iris' is their way of saying DI, then there really could be an extreme improvement in dynamic range. They might for marketing reasons make a very clear distinction between native contrast (aka contrast) and dynamic contrast (aka dynamic range) to show they are much better than the competition and at the same time separate themselves from inflated DI numbers from other manufacturers by using a different term. Also, having dissed dynamic irises for so long in their marketing it perhaps makes sense for them to call it something else, i.e. intelligent iris...

There is room for great improvement even if the contrast goes down or doesn't change at all. For instance, the RS66 has contrast of 130,000:1 and the RS48 has 50,000:1. This is very noticeable when the iris is completely closed at long throw, which will give you 200-250 lumens on low lamp and 280-350 on high lamp, which is unusable on any screen. When both projectors needs to light up a big screen to take advantage of eshift, you will have to open the iris, which gives you around 850-900 on high lamp mode. However, the contrast of the RS48 becomes around 24,000:1 compared to the 30:000:1 of the RS66. Which basically evens the field and not worth spending over 2X the cost. If they can get better contrast to separate the projectors when the iris is open, now that would be great even if max contrast goes down. Basically, why get an eshift projector on a 10ft wide 1.0 gain screen that requires at least 800 lumens with the new RS67 for $12,000 when you can get the same contrast with the much cheaper RS49. Black levels may be better on the higher end model, but most likely no where near 2X as much
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post #187 of 4133 Old 09-10-2013, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

If "extremely improved dynamic range" only equates to a 10K increase, that's very disappointing.
My thought exactly......

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post #188 of 4133 Old 09-10-2013, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Drexler View Post

Calling those contrast numbers "extremely improved dynamic range" doesn't make any sense at all. they have hardly budged at all and i bet won't be noticeable with the naked eye. However, if 'intelligent iris' is their way of saying DI, then there really could be an extreme improvement in dynamic range. They might for marketing reasons make a very clear distinction between native contrast (aka contrast) and dynamic contrast (aka dynamic range) to show they are much better than the competition and at the same time separate themselves from inflated DI numbers from other manufacturers by using a different term. Also, having dissed dynamic irises for so long in their marketing it perhaps makes sense for them to call it something else, i.e. intelligent iris...

That's exactly what went through my head when I tried to put together the "extremely improved dynamic range" with the meager boost in numbers. JVC always boasts about their native contrast but I don't remember them ever claiming "extremely improved contrast/dynamic range." (At least not for several years). For instance, the literature on the last series generally just said "upgrade" for the native contrast.
And JVC I think knows they have something of a savvy market and that contrast is one of the hallmarks that their customers watch closely. As well, and for this reason I'd think, they are good at actually putting out projectors that can produce the contrast they advertise (in optimal conditions). So claiming such a big contrast improvement without the numbers actually being there makes me wonder about the dynamic iris as well, especially given the new "intelligent" iris info.
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post #189 of 4133 Old 09-10-2013, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post


And...why would they be so concerned with narrowing the pixel gap further? Their E-shift already made them impossible to see, which was mostly the point.

I wondered about this too. But, if they kept the pixel size the same while narrowing the pixel gap then the die size is smaller and that usually pays dividend in cost savings. If they kept the same die size then smaller pixel gaps would allow bigger pixels. I think bigger pixels would result in better sharpness (keeping the same screen size but projecting with bigger pixels equates to less magnification which improves sharpness).

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post #190 of 4133 Old 09-10-2013, 03:48 PM
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We are going to have to wait for some real hands on reviews to answer most of these questions. 2 weeks until CEDIA - the countdown continues ! smile.gif

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post #191 of 4133 Old 09-10-2013, 04:18 PM
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My thought exactly......

Well look at it from JVC's side (at least with RS46) a 20% increase in contrast is a healthy percentage of increase. I would love to get that every year.

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post #192 of 4133 Old 09-10-2013, 04:35 PM
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If this does happen to be JVCs version of a DI, it would be their first stab at it and chances are it will be noticeable for those sensitive to DIs. Nothing about the new models sounds exciting if I am beeing honest if you have a JVC from the last year or two. Curious to hear more, but so far this looks like a great year to take off for anyone with a recent model......unless you can pony up for the new Sony which does look exciting. cool.gif

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post #193 of 4133 Old 09-10-2013, 06:10 PM
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If this does happen to be JVCs version of a DI, it would be their first stab at it and chances are it will be noticeable for those sensitive to DIs. Nothing about the new models sounds exciting if I am beeing honest if you have a JVC from the last year or two. Curious to hear more, but so far this looks like a great year to take off for anyone with a recent model......unless you can pony up for the new Sony which does look exciting. cool.gif

The sony does sound enticing. But then I wondered: the JVC's apparently beat out the much more expensive Sony 1000 4K model in contrast, and this new cheaper Sony 4K model has much lower rated contrast.
So I have to wonder if us high contrast/JVC fans would feel like we took much of a hit jumping to the Sony.

Me, my enthusiasm for 4K itself is at very low boil at the moment, so I'm not compelled to pay much money for it right now. E-shift is doing me fine until 4K content becomes more common (if ever).
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post #194 of 4133 Old 09-10-2013, 06:28 PM
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I would be willing to wait for a 4k jvc. Best of both worlds, resolution and contrast. BUT the lag for pc use and gaming is horrible on the eshift units. Almost 100 ms:eek: sony only have 16 on the 1080 panels and 35-45ish on the 1000.
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post #195 of 4133 Old 09-10-2013, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

The sony does sound enticing. But then I wondered: the JVC's apparently beat out the much more expensive Sony 1000 4K model in contrast, and this new cheaper Sony 4K model has much lower rated contrast.
So I have to wonder if us high contrast/JVC fans would feel like we took much of a hit jumping to the Sony.

Me, my enthusiasm for 4K itself is at very low boil at the moment, so I'm not compelled to pay much money for it right now. E-shift is doing me fine until 4K content becomes more common (if ever).

I am wondering same thing with regards to contrast as i dont want to take a step forward in resolution but then take a step back in contrast. I still really like my RS40 but I am ready to upgrade this fall. I got it in my head that i wanted 4k and am excited about the new Sony but the supposed $15k MSRP has turned me off so I will be anxious to hear from people who see the new Sony at Cedia as to how it compares vs the new JVC's in overall pq.

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post #196 of 4133 Old 09-10-2013, 06:38 PM
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I would be willing to wait for a 4k jvc. Best of both worlds, resolution and contrast. BUT the lag for pc use and gaming is horrible on the eshift units. Almost 100 ms:eek: sony only have 16 on the 1080 panels and 35-45ish on the 1000.

Yeah, it is a shame JVC couldn't come out with a native 4k model with HDMI 2.0 this fall. We are probably a year away from that happening it appears now.

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post #197 of 4133 Old 09-10-2013, 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

The sony does sound enticing. But then I wondered: the JVC's apparently beat out the much more expensive Sony 1000 4K model in contrast, and this new cheaper Sony 4K model has much lower rated contrast.
So I have to wonder if us high contrast/JVC fans would feel like we took much of a hit jumping to the Sony.

Me, my enthusiasm for 4K itself is at very low boil at the moment, so I'm not compelled to pay much money for it right now. E-shift is doing me fine until 4K content becomes more common (if ever).


Great points and I have often wondered how well I would do moving to a Sony in particular and giving up the native contrast of the JVC. It sounds like Sony has one of the best DIs out there, but I have never met a DI I liked.......would the Sony be the first? I really doubt it (especially after living with a non DI JVC for all these years now!), but that is just speculation until I lived with one for a while (not just demoing it, unless that is all it took for me to be bothered by the DI). I picked up a BenQ 7000 end of last year for 3d duties and some non critical 2d use (all movies/concerts go to the RS45) and one of the first things I did was turn off the DI as it was horrible to my eyes. Sounds like the Sony would be much better here, but good enough for a VERY picky SOB like myself? I have my doubts.

I feel the same way about 4k as well. I will be more excited when/if 4k content is readily available AND with solid selection. Until then, 1080p is doing me just fine.

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post #198 of 4133 Old 09-10-2013, 06:55 PM
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Apparently 4k content is coming and its going to be a good amount. Well, that's what I have been hearing. It would be good if we can actually see what's coming out, would it be movies that I don't want to see again or new movies? I still wonder how a good blu ray transfer compares to a 4k movie. More resolution doesn't mean better PQ. I'm very curious to see how things unfold in the next 12 months. Most people are waiting on a JVC because they offer the most for the price. They of course are not the best, but its hard to find a projector that can beat them in their price range
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post #199 of 4133 Old 09-10-2013, 06:57 PM
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All I want is an improvement in motion and my next projector may very well be a true 4K JVC. The more I hear about the new Sony 600ES, the less interested I am in it. Cine4Home reports only 6000:1 native contrast and a lens no where near the quality of the 1000ES.

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post #200 of 4133 Old 09-10-2013, 07:00 PM
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All I want is an improvement in motion and my next projector may very well be a true 4K JVC. The more I hear about the new Sony 600ES, the less interested in it I am. Cine4Home reports only 6000:1 native contrast and a lens no where near the quality of the 1000ES.

Until a 4k DLP come out. But are you interested in the Sony 500ES? I know you was thinking about the 1000ES
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post #201 of 4133 Old 09-10-2013, 07:03 PM
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Until a 4k DLP come out. But are you interested in the Sony 500ES? I know you was thinking about the 1000ES

I don't know if I can afford the 1000ES. I may take out a personal loan. We'll see. The 600ES (the 500ES is the EU model) seems like a giant compromise.

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post #202 of 4133 Old 09-10-2013, 07:14 PM
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I was about to pick up a 1000ES, but I bought a new Mustang and said, ill wait until next year. Then, I got that DP LED for cheap. I can't believe sometimes how much I spend on these HT toys. Probably next year, the 1000ES will be even lower or JVC will come with something killer. Next year is going to be very, very fun. CEDIA is going to be crazy, I'm definitely going.
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post #203 of 4133 Old 09-11-2013, 06:52 AM
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Well look at it from JVC's side (at least with RS46) a 20% increase in contrast is a healthy percentage of increase. I would love to get that every year.
I don't argue that.....but neither would I call that "extreme".....but then again the JVC marketing machine knows no boundaries on hype (recall the RS50 "light canon" 14" screen hype)....

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post #204 of 4133 Old 09-11-2013, 07:30 AM
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I do find that branding of Intelligent Iris to be amusing. If they actually are going to have a dynamic iris this year, which I really have no clue, calling it Intelligent would fly in the face of how they marketed in past years against any projector with a DI and their artifacts. Sort of like a virgin waiting for her one true love and then after the first time turning into a sex crazed nympho. We shall see. I think their pitch should be we waited until we reached perfection. Nothing before its time. Some people will bitch saying why do they have to pay for it. The true believers in native. If it comes, its more like changing a religious rule, fish on Fridays to whatever on Fridays. Personally, I would love to see a JVC with a switchable DI. I might even buy one.

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post #205 of 4133 Old 09-11-2013, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

All I want is an improvement in motion and my next projector may very well be a true 4K JVC. The more I hear about the new Sony 600ES, the less interested I am in it. Cine4Home reports only 6000:1 native contrast and a lens no where near the quality of the 1000ES.

From the cine4home review, the lens doesn't sound bad at all... just not the same as one on a 25K projector.

"Nothing has changed more in the 4K panel, there are the same used as in VW1000. However, the path has been completely revised and recognized the red tape on the projection lens, which of course the full 8 megapixels on the screen dissolves, but not quite as high quality goes down, as in VW1000, one of the main reasons for the price difference."

Also, the 6000:1 contrast is close throw iris open, and 15,000:1 iris closed. The VW1000 only had i believe 18,000:1 with iris closed. Another quote:

"But where there is light, there is shadow, of course: the high light yield in relation to the light intensity is the price of lower contrast: around 20% less native contrast offers the VW500, located between 6000:1 (On Iris / Zoom Max) and 15,000: 1 (for iris, zoom min) moves. Of course, this is still impressive values ​​that allow an excellent plasticity epitome."

I am also cautiously optimistic about the VW500, and have been looking at b stock vw1000s for the last year. Hopefully the projector turns out to be awesome, but who knows.

As for JVC, i would LOVE to get the native contrast of the RS66 successor, but 2 things are holding me back.
1) No true 4K. For around the same price as the VW500. Maybe reports are wrong and the new higher end JVCs WILL have 4K, but i'm not spending that much money on a 1080p machine again at this point.

2) Input lag for gaming. This is the real reason i've never gone with a JVC. The higher end models with E-shift have worse lag than the lower end rs46. Like, around 100ms lag. Why don't they fix this?
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post #206 of 4133 Old 09-11-2013, 09:32 AM
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2) Input lag for gaming. This is the real reason i've never gone with a JVC.
Good to know I'm not the only one. Maybe some day JVC will hear us.
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post #207 of 4133 Old 09-11-2013, 10:57 AM
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The sony does sound enticing. But then I wondered: the JVC's apparently beat out the much more expensive Sony 1000 4K model in contrast, and this new cheaper Sony 4K model has much lower rated contrast.
So I have to wonder if us high contrast/JVC fans would feel like we took much of a hit jumping to the Sony. ...

I understand your sympathies, Rich. I have the Sony1000 and do like it very much; glad I made the plunge. It is certainly much brighter than the JVC's, and this is imp for my large screen, 144x72 (even if it is a HP!) The contrast is very good--I use the iris on full auto all the time--but I do admit that there are times when I miss the uber-contrast of my former RS20 (and the newer ones are certainly better). When/if JVC comes out with their 4K product --and if it increases its calibrated lumens by a factor of 2 (to ~ 1500)--then I'll be ready to move back. Til then I'm going to do the upgrade for my 1000 and stay with it another couple of yrs.
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post #208 of 4133 Old 09-11-2013, 01:07 PM
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I understand your sympathies, Rich. I have the Sony1000 and do like it very much; glad I made the plunge. It is certainly much brighter than the JVC's, and this is imp for my large screen, 144x72 (even if it is a HP!) The contrast is very good--I use the iris on full auto all the time--but I do admit that there are times when I miss the uber-contrast of my former RS20 (and the newer ones are certainly better). When/if JVC comes out with their 4K product --and if it increases its calibrated lumens by a factor of 2 (to ~ 1500)--then I'll be ready to move back. Til then I'm going to do the upgrade for my 1000 and stay with it another couple of yrs.

It's all relative. You can't get the high contrast ratio with a JVC and high brightness at the same time - you either open the iris for more brightness, or close it down. I'm more addicted to brightness at this point.

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post #209 of 4133 Old 09-11-2013, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

It's all relative. You can't get the high contrast ratio with a JVC and high brightness at the same time - you either open the iris for more brightness, or close it down. I'm more addicted to brightness at this point.

That seems to be the case with the JVCs, but I don't see why it has to be. As you say, it's all relative: for a given CR, higher brightness will of course mean a higher black level, and also a higher white level, with their ratio remaining the same. I.e., I don't see why the CR itself should decrease with increasing brightness.

This same argument drives me crazy when some people (not you!) say that a HP screen lowers the CR; it of course doesn't--it raises the black level and the white level in the same proportion. Why can't turning up the brightness of a pj--e.g., by opening up an adjustable iris--work the same way?
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post #210 of 4133 Old 09-11-2013, 01:27 PM
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I agree that I'd like to see higher CR and brightness - I suspect that a 4K LED 3 chip DLP dream projector in the future ( or laser ) might do it - at a price I most likely won't like. Another case in point -

From Home Theater Magazine's JVC DLA-X95R review -
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In my setup, I achieved a peak contrast performance of 110,000:1 by taking the Lens Aperture to its lowest setting of –15. But this also resulted in a meager 4 foot-lamberts of light on my 120-inch screen, which is way too low for typical viewing. Opening the Lens Aperture fully to 0 provided about 12 ft-L on my screen with a peak contrast of about 24,000:1. This is still a very respectable contrast number, and the added brightness makes for a far punchier image. While this is only a quarter of the contrast performance that the tighter lens aperture setting affords, it’s still exponentially better than what you’ll achieve with almost any other technology on the market. Also keep in mind, because this is a manual iris, you can always fine-tune the image to your particular viewing environment. Not everyone has a screen as large as mine, so you may be able to achieve a higher contrast ratio at the same light level by simply adjusting the aperture to your screen.

My Lumis can produce about 24,000:1 contrast, and 18 - 20 foot lamberts. So it is possible.

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Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

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