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post #2071 of 4135 Old 12-08-2013, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post


I was calibrating a 4810 last night and spent much longer than I wanted to just getting a baseline for gamma and greyscale. The Epson 5030 is a breeze by comparison. The 4810's 5-25 range in the greyscale is way off when 30 and 80 are set and requires a fun process of going back and forth in the individual gamma color settings to fine tune it. I can see these 5-25 errors in low APL scenes, they were that far off. (heavy push on blue).

I don't recall how far off my 4810 was initially (I think I first calibrated at 60 hours) but GS was not horrible. Gamma was though. But, I used the Lumagen and didn't set 30/80. The good news is that calibrations are more stable then previous models -- subsequent calibrations have required some fine tuning but it was more stable between calibrations than my previous RS55 projector. The new lamp also has a more stable lumen output so the new lamp is a big improvement and not just because they don't burn out as often.

Did you ever get a good REC 709 gaunt on that 4810? Green is significantly undersaturated on mine (as is Cyan).

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post #2072 of 4135 Old 12-08-2013, 02:32 PM
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GS was tracking ok from 30-100, it was mainly 5-25 that was quite a bit off. Gamma needed a full custom tune to get a solid ~2.2 throughout the range.

This was similar with green and cyan but I don't think most people would notice it. I use the Planar 8130 for a reference check, it has very good overall color / gamma out of the box. near perfect w/ minor tweaks on the lumagen.
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post #2073 of 4135 Old 12-08-2013, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
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But what I was reminded of in re-visiting those previous discussions was, as I wrote, the fact that a good DI can increase intrascene oontrast (and as Ekkehart says, sometimes even native contrast),
through a judicious addition of gamma manipulation with the DI.

Take a low APL scene. The dynamic iris can close to get the blacks deeper and in closing it increases the contrast...but without anything else the low light objects could become too dim or be lost. Gamma manipulation pumps up the brightness of those low light objects so they become more visible again, so the overall effect is a lowered black level, increased contrast over what you'd get if you didn't have a DI for that scene.

I don't understand Ekkehart saying it can improve native contrast. Native contrast is very simply peak white to black. No gamma fiddling can change the differential between peak white and black. So I think he is wrong here or we are not fully understanding what he meant. In terms of clever use of gamma, absolutely that can be done, but it is usually also at the expensive of white crush as certain light parts of the scene are squashed together. Of course there are certain scenes where this can be applied that wouldn't result in white crush but I reckon that is not that frequent.This is why even JVCs implementation has the ability to switch off the gamma tweaking as part of the DI. If it was always guaranteed to be secondary effect free, then there would be no need to have the option at all. This is the same with the new clear back feature which isn't just on and off from what I understand, but has several presets. This implies it has negative effects too and you may elect to choose a lower setting to reduce the risk.

Like I said before though, if you ran with manual aperture set to -15 before (remember also that the new JVCs are 100 lumens brighter), then you are not going to be able to let the DI run free anyway, because otherwise you will burn holes in your retinas. So you should reduce the risk of artifacts significantly as the DI will not be travelling through its full range. That being said, you won't be getting the extreme contrast ratios mentioned either. I just watched a movie tonight on my X75 and was wow'd at the inky fade to blacks, and bright punchy daylight scenes. I am also reminded about how imperfect my room is with its ultramatt but cream walls that still throw some reflected light back onto the screen. I think I better find a way to take care of that (AKA the wife) before I worry about eeking out any more contrast!

I still think its an important step that JVC have added a DI. And this should mean when they do finally release a true 4K platform that they will be able to keep their place in the projector market as a viable and considerable competition to Sony for the foreseeable future.
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post #2074 of 4135 Old 12-08-2013, 03:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof View Post

I don't recall how far off my 4810 was initially (I think I first calibrated at 60 hours) but GS was not horrible. Gamma was though. But, I used the Lumagen and didn't set 30/80. The good news is that calibrations are more stable then previous models -- subsequent calibrations have required some fine tuning but it was more stable between calibrations than my previous RS55 projector. The new lamp also has a more stable lumen output so the new lamp is a big improvement and not just because they don't burn out as often.

Did you ever get a good REC 709 gaunt on that 4810? Green is significantly undersaturated on mine (as is Cyan).

That'll be one of my top Xmas wish's on the RS57 since my RS55 (as you well know Geof), was pretty inconsistent across the range. Whereas Jason has issues in the 5-25 range my ID3 seemed to do well for me in that area and most of my issues were getting 85-100 tamed without throwing everything else out of whack (very temperamental).

Quick question… would I still need to get Tom to recal my ID3 if it's just been sitting in the orig box. all sealed in a Glad freezer bag for the last year or do the environmentals just find their way over time to pollute the accuracy of these cheaper meters?

Oh and as of today I am officially projector-less as my buyer came and picked everything up today. frown.gifSo… hurry up JVC & MikeyG… (hard to know I have $4K in cold hard cash in my possession and not wanna go buy one of those high end "Bobsled blowup dolls" instead!)! wink.giftongue.gif

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post #2075 of 4135 Old 12-08-2013, 09:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof View Post

Did you ever get a good REC 709 gaunt on that 4810? Green is significantly undersaturated on mine (as is Cyan).

The green of my 4810 is also undersaturated and it can't be fixed using Lumagen since 4810 does not have wide gamut. frown.gif

I had several emails with Mike@avs half years ago when AVForums review was out about good color reproduction of the sample they got from JVC UK and I got no conclusion from the engineer of JVC USA and Mike.

I have recently calibrated Epson 5020 and Sony HW55 and saw pretty good color gamut w/o adding any video processor on it.
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post #2076 of 4135 Old 12-08-2013, 09:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krichter1 View Post

That'll be one of my top Xmas wish's on the RS57 since my RS55 (as you well know Geof), was pretty inconsistent across the range. Whereas Jason has issues in the 5-25 range my ID3 seemed to do well for me in that area and most of my issues were getting 85-100 tamed without throwing everything else out of whack (very temperamental).

Quick question… would I still need to get Tom to recal my ID3 if it's just been sitting in the orig box. all sealed in a Glad freezer bag for the last year or do the environmentals just find their way over time to pollute the accuracy of these cheaper meters?

Oh and as of today I am officially projector-less as my buyer came and picked everything up today. frown.gifSo… hurry up JVC & MikeyG… (hard to know I have $4K in cold hard cash in my possession and not wanna go buy one of those high end "Bobsled blowup dolls" instead!)! wink.giftongue.gif

If da bears lose tomorrow night at least you won't have to suffer watching on a large screen. I started watching the Redskins on a large screen and switched to a small but it didn't help. How about the Patriots?

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post #2077 of 4135 Old 12-09-2013, 06:35 AM
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Hello all,

here's a link to the manual of the new JVC projectors

 

http://books.jvc.com/booklist.asp?Model=DLA-X500R

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post #2078 of 4135 Old 12-09-2013, 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by luxmigman View Post

Hello all,
here's a link to the manual of the new JVC projectors

http://books.jvc.com/booklist.asp?Model=DLA-X500R

Thank you very much for that, luxmigman.

From the portion about Lens Aperture (Intelligent Lens App):

Auto 1: Image contrast is enhanced.
Auto 2: Places emphasis on the gradation.


I wonder what that means for Auto 2. ?



*2 When the setting is changed to Auto after performing manual adjustment, the value
set manually will be used as the aperture value for Auto


Nice to see that very important feature confirmed in the manual.

2 modes for Clear Black, Low and High

Nice to see the masking option, as it could help with some overspill (due to moving pincushioning off screen) for using my A-lens.
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post #2079 of 4135 Old 12-09-2013, 07:10 AM
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You're welcome.

I have been following this thread for some time and when I found this manual in the net I thought that you might be interested.

 

I ordererd an RS57 (my first projector) and now I count the days until it arrives :)

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post #2080 of 4135 Old 12-09-2013, 07:26 AM
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The green of my 4810 is also undersaturated and it can't be fixed using Lumagen since 4810 does not have wide gamut. frown.gif

I had several emails with Mike@avs half years ago when AVForums review was out about good color reproduction of the sample they got from JVC UK and I got no conclusion from the engineer of JVC USA and Mike.

I have recently calibrated Epson 5020 and Sony HW55 and saw pretty good color gamut w/o adding any video processor on it.

No conclusion that I can give you. If undersaturated, nothing can be done. A lumagen nor any other device can not fix that. Every projector has it's warts. And with the forum, those warts are always exposed. Usually as you move up in price point, you get fewer warts (not always the case), but the JVC's do represent a good value. In other words, you get a lot for your money.

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post #2081 of 4135 Old 12-09-2013, 07:27 AM
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If the JVC's ship this week as we were told, then we are coming down to the last week? for the preorder. smile.gif
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luxmigman View Post

Hello all,
here's a link to the manual of the new JVC projectors

http://books.jvc.com/booklist.asp?Model=DLA-X500R

Thanks a lot for this Luxmigman,

I had to cancel my pre-order as I thought these were some kind of fancy and expensive lighting equipment for my living-room, but the cover page is very clear, it's not the case:

"Not suitable for household illumination"

I have to find something else to light our Xmas tree. biggrin.gif

Seriously, thanks a lot, much appreciated
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post #2083 of 4135 Old 12-09-2013, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

Thank you very much for that, luxmigman.

From the portion about Lens Aperture (Intelligent Lens App):

Auto 1: Image contrast is enhanced.
Auto 2: Places emphasis on the gradation.


I wonder what that means for Auto 2. ?


.


Auto 2 is the gamma modifying version
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post #2084 of 4135 Old 12-09-2013, 07:34 AM
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Auto 2 is the gamma modifying version

Ah yes, thanks.

Sounds like you've got insider info this year. smile.gif

Also, is it a common feature of projectors with DI's to allow the user to turn off gamma manipulation?
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post #2085 of 4135 Old 12-09-2013, 07:35 AM
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The new JVC models have been released in Japan. That means AVS should get it this week, which means I get it shortly after!
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post #2086 of 4135 Old 12-09-2013, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

Thanks a lot for this Luxmigman,

I had to cancel my pre-order as I thought these were some kind of fancy and expensive lighting equipment for my living-room, but the cover page is very clear, it's not the case:

"Not suitable for household illumination"

I have to find something else to light our Xmas tree. biggrin.gif

Seriously, thanks a lot, much appreciated

Used with a High Power screen and project a white image and it would light up a room nicely. smile.gif

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post #2087 of 4135 Old 12-09-2013, 07:54 AM
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Used with a High Power screen and project a white image and it would light up a room nicely. smile.gif

Thank you so much!

Do you mean that I could also vary the level of brightness if I project a non white image, and that I could switch it off simply using a black picture?

This is awesome!

Please re-instate my pre-order then smile.gif In fact, I'll take two, there is another room that needs a bit of extra lighting.
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post #2088 of 4135 Old 12-09-2013, 07:54 AM
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You folks with your sarcastic humor smile.gif I was beginning I worry that the projector wouldn't fit in any room except a batcave 😄
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post #2089 of 4135 Old 12-09-2013, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

Thank you so much!

Do you mean that I could also vary the level of brightness if I project a non white image, and that I could switch it off simply using a black picture?

This is awesome!

Please re-instate my pre-order then smile.gif In fact, I'll take two, there is another room that needs a bit of extra lighting.

I've ordered a second one, to replace the light fixture above our dining room table. Aimed downward at the table it will provide light and we'll be able to watch movies and TV while
we eat. Fortunately, JVC having had the foresight for such use, has also provided aperture control to dim the light output for more romantic dinners.
We need another light in our clothes closet, so perhaps I'll order a third.
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post #2090 of 4135 Old 12-09-2013, 08:05 AM
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If da bears lose tomorrow night at least you won't have to suffer watching on a large screen. I started watching the Redskins on a large screen and switched to a small but it didn't help. How about the Patriots?

If the Bearsssss lose tonight it's as over as your Redskin season! tongue.gif You could call the Pat's lucky this season but they always seem to find their own luck (which of course at some point ceases to be defined as "luck"). smile.gif

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post #2091 of 4135 Old 12-09-2013, 08:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

I've ordered a second one, to replace the light fixture above our dining room table. Aimed downward at the table it will provide light and we'll be able to watch movies and TV while
we eat. Fortunately, JVC having had the foresight for such use, has also provided aperture control to dim the light output for more romantic dinners.
We need another light in our clothes closet, so perhaps I'll order a third.

You are aware that this last use is not covered by JVC's warranty? eek.gif
It needs a minimum of ventilation to work, or it could set fire to your clothes.
But if you drill a few big holes in the closet doors, or install a powerful enough fan, you might get away with it.
The picture will likely be out of focus, but if you only need the light to choose the right pair of trousers, I don't think you'll notice.
Please let me know how it works for you, I hadn't thought about that closet use before and am very interested in this application.
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post #2092 of 4135 Old 12-09-2013, 08:25 AM
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Ah yes, thanks.

Sounds like you've got insider info this year. smile.gif

Also, is it a common feature of projectors with DI's to allow the user to turn off gamma manipulation?

I honestly don't know enough about Sony and other implementations to know if you can defeat the gamma manipulation. It is much more important on a projector with more limited native contrast. So I am glad JVC provide both options.
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post #2093 of 4135 Old 12-09-2013, 08:42 AM
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Mark/Kevin, just going to leave this here....




biggrin.gif


Somebody must have forgot to tell Manning he is not a cold weather quarterback yesterday. wink.gif

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post #2094 of 4135 Old 12-09-2013, 08:43 AM
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Thanks a bunch for the manual luxmigman. I hung the final Velvet curtain yesterday, my room is now covered in light sucking Velvet Tee Hee. Excited to get my JVC,when I get it, I will be sure to post my over the top first time JVC owner review.

Here is my top 5 movies for first time viewing of the JVC.

Blade Runner
Alien
Empire Strikes Back
The Two Towers
Pacific Rim

Maybe this thread can help me decide on which movie to pick, because I can't.

James Reid:D
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post #2095 of 4135 Old 12-09-2013, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

I honestly don't know enough about Sony and other implementations to know if you can defeat the gamma manipulation. It is much more important on a projector with more limited native contrast. So I am glad JVC provide both options.

On the 500es the gamma manipulation can be defeated when using DI, it's called contrast enhance. And there are 3 levels, which are low, medium, and high.

I have very high hopes for this years models. I hope they improve the lag isn't worse. It's ok where it's at now.
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post #2096 of 4135 Old 12-09-2013, 08:51 AM
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Thanks a bunch for the manual luxmigman. I hung the final Velvet curtain yesterday, my room is now covered in light sucking Velvet Tee Hee. Excited to get my JVC,when I get it, I will be sure to post my over the top first time JVC owner review.

Here is my top 5 movies for first time viewing of the JVC.

Blade Runner
Alien
Empire Strikes Back
The Two Towers
Pacific Rim

Maybe this thread can help me decide on which movie to pick, because I can't.



Pacific Rim gets my vote. Deep black backdrops with lots of bright type neon lights and such. Tons of great scenes to show off the JVC and it is such a great looking transfer in general IMO.

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post #2097 of 4135 Old 12-09-2013, 08:53 AM
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Quote:
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Pacific Rim gets my vote. Deep black backdrops with lots of bright type neon lights and such. Tons of great scenes to show off the JVC and it is such a great looking transfer in general IMO.

I ordered the 3D Blu Ray and I agree beautiful film. Not my favorite overall but maybe visually. I need a smoke after what that movie does to me.

James Reid:D
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post #2098 of 4135 Old 12-09-2013, 08:56 AM
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Open question:

Was the "P. Analyzer" available on the previous models, and if so is it of any worth?


Also: I'm a bit surprised by the Intelligent Aperture controls. It's nice for sure to have the option to turn the dynamic gamma on and off, but I had been expecting we would get
some sort of "Low, Med, High" option for how aggressive we wanted the IRIS to work. Especially given the 10X multiplication of On/Off for the DI, which would suggest some pretty wide swings. Hopefully
they've engineered it to be subtle enough in it's one given setting.
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post #2099 of 4135 Old 12-09-2013, 08:59 AM
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Quote:
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Pacific Rim gets my vote. Deep black backdrops with lots of bright type neon lights and such. Tons of great scenes to show off the JVC and it is such a great looking transfer in general IMO.

That's the natural one, the current reference disc, to show off contrast in any projector I think. It's just insanely contrasty by the very nature of the image. The only thing is that in starting with Pacific Rim, it's about as impressive as you'll ever see the contrast on your projector so there's only "down" from there. I'll probably start with Alien, myself. smile.gif

Also, if anyone has it: Hell Boy 2 is just an incredible transfer, with absolutely killer black levels and contrast. I especially
like the scene were Hell Boy and company investigate the aftermath of the auction slaughter and encounter the Tooth Fairies. It's about as vivid as dark scenes get. (If you don't have that flick..get it! The JVC was made for cinematography like that).
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post #2100 of 4135 Old 12-09-2013, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

Open question:

Was the "P. Analyzer" available on the previous models, and if so is it of any worth?


Also: I'm a bit surprised by the Intelligent Aperture controls. It's nice for sure to have the option to turn the dynamic gamma on and off, but I had been expecting we would get
some sort of "Low, Med, High" option for how aggressive we wanted the IRIS to work. Especially given the 10X multiplication of On/Off for the DI, which would suggest some pretty wide swings. Hopefully
they've engineered it to be subtle enough in it's one given setting.


If I understand the manual correctly we will have the ability to manually set the Iris to the max brightness and the DI will work from that point down. I think others stated that a while ago or suspected that would be the case but now it's definitely confirmed. At the very least there are some options though not as flexible as the 500es.
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Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

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Sony Vpl Vw1000es Projector , Jvc Dla X900r , Jvc Dla X700r
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